GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: WNCmotard on March 17, 2014, 10:09:42 PM
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Some of you already know the issues I've had with my refurb Srod, some may not. Long story short, I bought one of the refurbs from R&L (and they've been great BTW), and it's been a scatter gun since day one. They had Crossman drop ship me a replacement barrel, and I installed it over the weekend, and while a bit better, it still wasn't grouping consistently after 100 shots or so. After seeing silentbutdeadly's thread, I decided to check my barrel, and this is what I found. Not to mention it arrived looking like it was drug behind the UPS truck to get here. They're going to get one more chance to fix this, then I'm going to give up on Crossman products for good, as it's obvious from the recent forum posts that they're QC and quality overall has went drastically downhill. The worst part is, I was really excited to own a made in the USA air rifle, but oddly they don't say that on them anymore. I'd be willing to bet why that is.
This is the condition that my entire barrel is in, very beat up
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e148/speedracer93/Webpics/Guns/AIr%20Guns/P1140816Medium_zpsb235f857.jpg)
And this is the pitiful excuse for a crown job
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e148/speedracer93/Webpics/Guns/AIr%20Guns/P1140801Medium_zps42309582.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e148/speedracer93/Webpics/Guns/AIr%20Guns/P1140807Medium_zps82591a2a.jpg)
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mine likes to scattergun pretty good some days. makes me super aggrivated.
but, if i do my part, she'll hold smaller than a dime... good luck with it!!!
.22 or .177?
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WNC, do you have access to a lathe? If so, counter bore the barrel ~1/2" and crown the inner step. Also it could be cut back the 1/2" then recrowned. That's probably the reason your gun was a return in the first place. :(
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The tool that's doing this is a piloted crown reamer. The problem looks like it's a pilot for .22 PB's. :o It's probably closer to a .216 pilot than a .210-.212 for an air rifle.
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I think Crosman is getting lazy & content. Content to sell cheap stuff to the Walmart crowd, where Mom & Dad buy Jr. his first air rifle and if he can hit a 3 lb. coffee can at 10 feet, all is good. If they are satisfied with that, thats up to them.
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@454 big block chevy - it's a .177 Srod, same as yours. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm a pretty decent shot. I can one hole 'em with my 10/22 at 50yds from a bench rest if I do my part. So bench rested I figure at most 1/2" (factoring in for any errors on my part) with this at 20yds as there are plenty of guys getting much better than that.
@ Big Bore Bart - I do not have access to those things unfortunately, so I'll simply make Crossman keep sending barrels until they get the point, and figure out it's much cheaper on them to do it right the first time than to keep paying two way shipping on barrel after barrel.
Again, I really want to love this gun, I waited quite some time to be able to buy everything I needed to take the PCP plunge, and waited even longer to be able to have a Marauder. I just want it to shoot like the many that I've seen groups posted from. And more importantly, I want Crossman to fix their issues so that I and others here can have faith in buying their products again.
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Crosman needs to spend less time and money in celebrity advertising, over hyped videos and all that over the top marketing C**p they been doing the last couple of years and focus on the basics.
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It's obvious they are crowning the .177 and .22 barrels the same. I'd like to see some .25 sRod barrel crowns to see if its also the same process. Worst case scenerio we need to cut these barrels down and have them recrowned.
I wouldn't blame this on overseas manufacturing as there are many products that are made better outside the inflated labor costs of the US. Also, for every 25 marauders sold I'm sure there's only one of us who cares enough to join a forum, post pictures and demand a quality product and sub 1" groups at 50yards. The money is in the masses but if Crosman wants to capture the whole market they will make sure their best guns reputation isn't tarnished. But on the flip side, this is America and it's not about the product it's about how it's marketed. They probably have the two best selling PCP guns out there even with the issues, so what do I know.
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I have the Synthetic Marauder in .22 and .25 and both are capable of 1 hole 10 shot groups at ten yards and Saturday weather permitting I will take them to the range and see how tight I can do at 25 and 50 yards then report back. That does not mean that I don't have issue with some of the QC I have seen from several AG manufactures in the past year
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Few things. Crosman has only one "s". Had to say it, sorry.
Also, a lot of barrels that don't look great will still shoot fine. Crown does not have to be pretty to make good groups.
Air rifles are not rimfires, different techniques can be effective.
And Crosman makes relatively inexpensive PCPs. Expecting MOA out of one of the least expensive repeater rifles may not be reasonable.
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Few things. Crosman has only one "s". Had to say it, sorry.
Also, a lot of barrels that don't look great will still shoot fine. Crown does not have to be pretty to make good groups.
Air rifles are not rimfires, different techniques can be effective.
And Crosman makes relatively inexpensive PCPs. Expecting MOA out of one of the least expensive repeater rifles may not be reasonable.
My apologies for the misspelling.
It shot poorly, as noted above with both barrels.
PCP air guns from my research are fairly easy to shoot accurately, much like a rimfire. And much easier to shoot accurately than springers and nitro piston guns. And I've had plenty of pellets (roughly 400 or so) downrange to get used to it as well.
There are plenty of sub MOA Marauders around, a lot on this very forum, including many (perhaps the majority) with factory barrels that are obviously free of these defects. Not to mention the ding in the end of the barrel, and the fact that it looks used, or at the very least beaten up pretty good before arriving to me. If others are happy with a gun in this price range that produces 2" groups at 20yds, then so be it. But I for one expect more for my money, but to each their own.
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I have seen that as well, the barrel on my .22 disco (bought it used) was chewed up the last 1/4 inch. Looked like they put it in a jig after rifling and trashed the rifling at the muzzle. I cut 1/2" inch off, trued it up in the lathe, and recrowned it. Now it will put 5 jsbs in .400 at 30 yards, but really? you have to fix their barrels to make them shoot right?
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surely technique will more than make up for a completely trashed barrel....it had to be said..
Crosman appears to have a serious aggrieved Union issue...that's not poor work..that's intentionally bad
and for garbage like that to get out of the factory and into the customer's hands is inexcusable..i can do
a better crowning job than that twisting a rock off the ground into the end of a barrel and I'm far
from alone in that capability...not that anybody would want to, BUT....anybody reading this thread could
literally pick up a rock out of the yard and grind it back and forth in the fresh cut end of a barrel for a few
minutes and get much better results than those embaressments...
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surely technique will more than make up for a completely trashed barrel....it had to be said..
Crosman appears to have a serious aggrieved Union issue...that's not poor work..that's intentionally bad
and for garbage like that to get out of the factory and into the customer's hands is inexcusable..i can do
a better crowning job than that twisting a rock off the ground into the end of a barrel and I'm far
from alone in that capability...not that anybody would want to, BUT....anybody reading this thread could
literally pick up a rock out of the yard and grind it back and forth in the fresh cut end of a barrel for a few
minutes and get much better results than those embaressments...
looking around for good rock
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Crosman's new "Stone Crowned Barrel"....sounds good.....almost. ::)
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Why not buy LW barrel? If the rest of the rifle is fine I think I'd just buy a nice aftermarket barrel.
Luckily, my new srod shoots like a dream.
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The 177 synrod was the last to be released, but seems to be the 1st or more plentiful on the refurb market. ::)
Call crosman, have them issue a ticket (and shipping label) and get a new gun.
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Interestingly enough some years ago Industry Brand was using the same technique to crown their QB barrels. It became widely known that it you had a bad shooter all you had to do was look in the end of the muzzle and 99 times out a 100 the rifling would be thrashed for an 1/8" down. However they paid attention and started producing some very fine barrels. I've attached a pic to compare with the OP
If you look beyond the obvious on the OP's barrel you can clearly see the problem is not just the crown. The rifling looks like it's been cut with a cheese grater. Whats happen here is when they pulled the mandrel core it has ripped the core of the barrel to shreds. I was doing custom cut and crown for some unnamed canadian distributors. I have worked on 1000's of crosman barrel units and the quality took a big nose dive about two years ago. First I started breaking tools and the metal started machining like sand. All indications would say their using a powder metal matrix similar to what got Winchester into hot water back in the 70's....ultimately this led to their demise folks.
Then I noticed the rifling lands were dull. Bore scope inspection clearly showed the metal in the lands looked like shag carpet at high magnification. They were not being forged enough for the lands to fully fill out in the grooves of the mandrel.
But I did some testing of my own and their is no fancy tool causing this damage to the end of the barrels. They are simply shoving the barrels onto an ordinary countersink drill by hand and the barrels are chattering back an forth. I have recreated the exact condition here at the shop.
At this point I wont touch a Crosman barrel. I wont have my name associated with such poor quality.
However the complacency that surrounds the Crosman QC issue is absolutely mind boggling. To hear things like " ya buy a gun and order three extra barrels...keep changing them until you find a good one" ....REALLY. If any other manufactuer did this they'd be run out of dodge. It's time to start demanding your american manufacturer show some quality and leadership. They only way to do this is with your wallet and your voice. Chip I know your reading this. >:(
I do give them credit for an awesomely effective marketing campaign though. To remove the very nice looking wood stock off the flagship rifle and replace it with a $5 injection molded piece of garbage was one thing but they managed to convince a good portion of the market that it was better.Bravo! :-[
So why is this Canadian guy getting so fired up about Crosman. Because anybody with a little grey in their beard should remember that some of Crosmans finest guns were produced in Dunnville Ontario. In fact some of the most highly collectible guns were produced there.
As a person that works in both PB's and AG's the idea that their is a different level of quality that that will work fine in an airgun is utter nonsense. There is no difference. Barrels are barrels. They have the same functions in airguns or in powder burners. We apply the same mathematics and manufacturing techniques to produce either. SImply put junk is junk, doesn't matter what you put it on.
And there are lots of options out there at the same price point that don't seem to have issues of such continuous gross neglect. However these companies have yet to sell their soul to the Big Box and still rely on individual consumers and small retailers
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Few things. Crosman has only one "s". Had to say it, sorry.
Also, a lot of barrels that don't look great will still shoot fine. Crown does not have to be pretty to make good groups.
Air rifles are not rimfires, different techniques can be effective.
And Crosman makes relatively inexpensive PCPs. Expecting MOA out of one of the least expensive repeater rifles may not be reasonable.
My apologies for the misspelling.
It shot poorly, as noted above with both barrels.
PCP air guns from my research are fairly easy to shoot accurately, much like a rimfire. And much easier to shoot accurately than springers and nitro piston guns. And I've had plenty of pellets (roughly 400 or so) downrange to get used to it as well.
There are plenty of sub MOA Marauders around, a lot on this very forum, including many (perhaps the majority) with factory barrels that are obviously free of these defects. Not to mention the ding in the end of the barrel, and the fact that it looks used, or at the very least beaten up pretty good before arriving to me. If others are happy with a gun in this price range that produces 2" groups at 20yds, then so be it. But I for one expect more for my money, but to each their own.
I was viewing this from my phone, and the pictures were small, but that does look pretty chopped up.
I guess what I was suggesting was too spend a little more and buy a rifle with a known quality barrel. Crosman sells their barrels for thirty bucks or so, not exactly and indicator of precision machining techniques.
Our buy from Mac-1, or another vendor who will tune up and shoot the rifle before shipping it to you.
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With all this talk about these bad barrels, I had to be sure my two week old .25 Marauder wasn't in the same boat.
I took the barrel out today and inspected it.
I was happy to find a nicely blued and straight barrel with a very nice crown.
Someone asked for pics so here are some.
Will
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It seems to effect mainly the .22 barrels. This is my bran new .22 discovery barrel (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/13246117623_fb3d8bb317_o.jpg)
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.25 BBL is a completely different animal. Made by Green Mountain.
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It seems to effect mainly the .22 barrels. This is my bran new .22 discovery barrel (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3824/13246117623_fb3d8bb317_o.jpg)
Yikes, def a Crosman issue then.
BTW Nice avvy!!
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With all this talk about these bad barrels, I had to be sure my two week old .25 Marauder wasn't in the same boat.
I took the barrel out today and inspected it.
I was happy to find a nicely blued and straight barrel with a very nice crown.
Someone asked for pics so here are some.
Will
of course it's nice,....It's NOT made by Crosman ;) ;)
they buy the .25 barrels
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Must have been a bit tired. First reaction was to think, “Now the last three Crosmans I bought……”
Then remembered, the last three Crosmans I seriously dialed in didn’t have Crosman barrels.
Got to thinking about that. Of the Crosman air guns around the place, which ones wear standard/unmodified Crosman barrels?
So I went thought the 10 Crosman barrels (as you’ll see, that would be 11 guns).
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/crosman/d51b92f3-164a-4f2d-8ce7-3e4c7e371c93.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/crosman/d51b92f3-164a-4f2d-8ce7-3e4c7e371c93.jpg.html)
2 of them are too old to really count (#9 and #10)
2 of them came with LW barrels from Crosman. (#2 and #4)
1 has basically an unchangeable barrel (#1).
Leaves me with 5 guns that came with standard Crosman barrels (#3, 5, 6, 7, 8)
#3. Junked the Crosman barrel for an .22 LW.
#5. Junked the Crosman barrel for a 5mm LW
#6. ISSUE .22 BARREL
#7. Junked the Crosman .22 barrel for a .177 barrel from an RWS 850.
#8. ISSUE .22 BARREL
So it would look like a 2 in 5 chance of a decent barrel.
The I realized I’m behind the times, and the newest of the two still-in-use issue Crosman barrels is 6 or 7 years old.
I really don’t know what the deal is with current Crosman barrels other than what I see posted. What I see posted shows (1) a rough bore often covered in lead like dandruff flakes (2) shallow rifling and (3) a crowning tool run on a pilot that is either too large of off center.
EXCEPTION (the 11th air gun):
A slightly bright spot for people who like to fiddle around.
The junked barrel from #7 got reworked into a carbine barrel.
1. Ran a tight patch down the barrel and thought I felt a slight tight between 19” and 20”
2. Cut it at where I though there was a tight spot and recrowned.
3. Polished the breech end (without enlarging it), being sure to deburr the transfer port.
Mounted onto a little 2240 HiPac Carbine, it is working quite well (and accurate).
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/HiPaC/8ff9b5ab-e724-47f6-9f67-30e0066feca8.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/HiPaC/8ff9b5ab-e724-47f6-9f67-30e0066feca8.jpg.html)
A few thoughts:
1. When Crosman wants to advertize a gun as being useful in some match or competition use, the guns are normally .177’s and normally wear LW barrels.
2. When Crosman went to .25, they outsourced their barrels,
3. The posters that get really good results with issue Crosman barrels have one of 3 reasons:
a. They won the ”barrel lottery” but don’t have enough other Crosman barrels for comparison.
b. Have an older Crosman barrel (as it seems the real problems are only showing up in the last 4-5 years).
c. Have reworked them to some extent.
4. They have no other "good" barrels to compare it to.
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When i take time to really look at it... it becomes very Obvious that the bearing on their crowning tool is bad. (If indeed it has a bearing) They need to address that and OR Slow down the RPM on the crowning tool. A slower RPM would allow the lubricant to work better on the tool causing less damage. Also i suspect if they put a worker in charge of crowning who actually cared about the quality of his or her work and understood how rifling worked,, that might help things as well.
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Crosman should have my .22 marauder Friday and both engineering and QC have seen my pictures. I'm going to push for an explanation from the horses mouth.
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I installed my third barrel (purchased out of pocket around the same time that R&L got me the warranty barrel) on the Srod night before last. Shot it yesterday, and it seemed a bit better. Cleaned up the crown, transfer port and lead in last night and shot it some more today with four different brands (Crosman, JSB, H&N, and Benjamin) of ammo and different variations within those brands. Shot 20yds benchrested on the bipod with rear bag, it will put a couple pretty close together then toss a flier, or two, or three. I've been very patient for the past month, and wasted a lot of money on pellets trying to work with this junk. I'm calling Crosman tomorrow hopefully if I'm not slammed at work like I've been all week.
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from a Crosman worker:
" Crosman has to get the machines fixed. The dents are from us wacking the tube or barrel with another one to get them on or off the press without it "shooting" at us. The punch presses are set by air pressure. If the tube or barrel gets stuck, and the pressure builds up, it would shoot out of the punch press if we didn't wack it before it wacked us. It's hard to explain unless you worked there."
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 06:54:16 AM by punchpressqueen75 »
here's my .177 14" crosman barrel
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh110/harryfish/DSC00445.jpg)
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WOW, that sure sounds like a great professional company :( :(
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If that's truly the case, and they're sending known defective barrels out to customers then I can't type what I'm thinking on this site. What's interesting is that barrel #2 that was warrantied, is the one that looked so rough. Barrel #3 that was purchased out of pocket looked just fine, looked nice and new, just doesn't shoot all that great.
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Well, I just got off the phone with a nice lady from Crosman. I explained the condition that the replacement barrel I received was in, and that it clearly looked used and abused when it arrived. They wanted me to send in the whole gun, and I politely declined and explained that the gun functions fine other than the terrible quality of the barrels that are being allowed to be sent out the door. So she agreed to issue a call tag for the barrel I was sent under warranty, and said they will replace it, and the saga continues.
I also let them know there were threads on the air gun boards about this, and they claimed it was the first they'd heard of any recent barrel problems. They also claimed there were no tooling or machinery issues taking place at the factory. ::)
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I sent my synrod in for warranty, complaining about the quality of the barrel.
I got it back with a note "replaced power screw" and showed a sample target from their testing at 11yards. It was a .75" group. At 11 yards. They found this acceptable. I find it embarrassing for a $500 gun. After some home testing, I couldn't get better than 1" groups at 25 yards, and that was with several pellets (h&n ftt, beeman fts, cpd, jsb 15.89, jsb 18.1).
This will be the last Crosman gun I buy.
At this point I am willing to buy a third party barrel. I really wanted one of the new hammer forged barrels from Jim Gaska, but they don't seem to be on the ordering page at marmot militia.
EDIT** I guess he is getting them up on his ordering page, as the barrels page is now active again. I'm going to sit and stare at my credit card until I can order one.
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I also let them know there were threads on the air gun boards about this, and they claimed it was the first they'd heard of any recent barrel problems. They also claimed there were no tooling or machinery issues taking place at the factory. ::)
Yeah, of course.
It ha s been a couple of years now, but Crosman should really ........ho boy, better not type what I have in mind ;) ;)
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I sent my synrod in for warranty, complaining about the quality of the barrel.
I got it back with a note "replaced power screw" and showed a sample target from their testing at 11yards. It was a .75" group. At 11 yards. They found this acceptable. I find it embarrassing for a $500 gun. After some home testing, I couldn't get better than 1" groups at 25 yards, and that was with several pellets (h&n ftt, beeman fts, cpd, jsb 15.89, jsb 18.1).
This will be the last Crosman gun I buy.
At this point I am willing to buy a third party barrel. I really wanted one of the new hammer forged barrels from Jim Gaska, but they don't seem to be on the ordering page at marmot militia.
EDIT** I guess he is getting them up on his ordering page, as the barrels page is now active again. I'm going to sit and stare at my credit card until I can order one.
That is complete BS in my opinon, that not worthy and I'm sorry that's what you ended up with. I'll likely buy a LW barrel for mine as well if Crosman can't get me one that shoots MUCH better than that. Since my gun was a refurb, I'll still come out about the cost of a new Srod. What I find comical is they advertise the marauder to be the quietest, most accurate gun in it's class. Looking at test targets from reviews of other guns in it's price range, and even cheaper PCP guns I beg to differ.
I REALLY want a P rod, it's the only thing like it out there pretty much that I'm aware of, but if I can't get this worked out to my satisfaction I doubt I'll ever buy one. So that means I'll be looking for other options, that will still let me hand pump though, which rules out the air force guns.
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I sent my synrod in for warranty, complaining about the quality of the barrel.
I got it back with a note "replaced power screw" and showed a sample target from their testing at 11yards. It was a .75" group. At 11 yards. They found this acceptable. I find it embarrassing for a $500 gun. After some home testing, I couldn't get better than 1" groups at 25 yards, and that was with several pellets (h&n ftt, beeman fts, cpd, jsb 15.89, jsb 18.1).
This will be the last Crosman gun I buy.
At this point I am willing to buy a third party barrel. I really wanted one of the new hammer forged barrels from Jim Gaska, but they don't seem to be on the ordering page at marmot militia.
EDIT** I guess he is getting them up on his ordering page, as the barrels page is now active again. I'm going to sit and stare at my credit card until I can order one.
That is complete BS in my opinon, that not worthy and I'm sorry that's what you ended up with. I'll likely buy a LW barrel for mine as well if Crosman can't get me one that shoots MUCH better than that. Since my gun was a refurb, I'll still come out about the cost of a new Srod. What I find comical is they advertise the marauder to be the quietest, most accurate gun in it's class. Looking at test targets from reviews of other guns in it's price range, and even cheaper PCP guns I beg to differ.
I REALLY want a P rod, it's the only thing like it out there pretty much that I'm aware of, but if I can't get this worked out to my satisfaction I doubt I'll ever buy one. So that means I'll be looking for other options, that will still let me hand pump though, which rules out the air force guns.
You can hand pump an Airforce PCP it is just a little more work I pumped my Condor with my Hill pump for 3 months and if I wasn't such a lazy old fart I would not have bought a Freedom 8 and Guppy tank
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I sent my synrod in for warranty, complaining about the quality of the barrel.
I got it back with a note "replaced power screw" and showed a sample target from their testing at 11yards. It was a .75" group. At 11 yards. They found this acceptable. I find it embarrassing for a $500 gun. After some home testing, I couldn't get better than 1" groups at 25 yards, and that was with several pellets (h&n ftt, beeman fts, cpd, jsb 15.89, jsb 18.1).
This will be the last Crosman gun I buy.
At this point I am willing to buy a third party barrel. I really wanted one of the new hammer forged barrels from Jim Gaska, but they don't seem to be on the ordering page at marmot militia.
EDIT** I guess he is getting them up on his ordering page, as the barrels page is now active again. I'm going to sit and stare at my credit card until I can order one.
That is complete BS in my opinon, that not worthy and I'm sorry that's what you ended up with. I'll likely buy a LW barrel for mine as well if Crosman can't get me one that shoots MUCH better than that. Since my gun was a refurb, I'll still come out about the cost of a new Srod. What I find comical is they advertise the marauder to be the quietest, most accurate gun in it's class. Looking at test targets from reviews of other guns in it's price range, and even cheaper PCP guns I beg to differ.
I REALLY want a P rod, it's the only thing like it out there pretty much that I'm aware of, but if I can't get this worked out to my satisfaction I doubt I'll ever buy one. So that means I'll be looking for other options, that will still let me hand pump though, which rules out the air force guns.
You can hand pump an Airforce PCP it is just a little more work I pumped my Condor with my Hill pump for 3 months and if I wasn't such a lazy old fart I would not have bought a Freedom 8 and Guppy tank
Yeah, I also just saw the new Escape SS has a smaller tank, roughly the same size as the Mrod. I'm really digging this gun, and the fact that it's still 100% made in the USA. An SS in .22cal might very well be my next PCP. I love the spin loc tank so you can break it down quickly to put in a backpack also. Not to mention, I can simply buy a new barrel and have another caliber, it's like the lego system air rifle. LOL
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I've been following this thread with much interest. In late October of last year, I ordered a .177 Discovery barrel to convert my 2289 to what I feel is a more suitable caliber for a 10fpe carbine. Around the same time, a GTA member posted about a new Crosman barrel they'd recently received which had a scratch running through the rifling from one end to the other. I wish I could find the thread because the author had a good picture of it. You can barely tell in my picture below.
Lo and behold, when my barrel arrived it had the same type of scratch. I mounted it up to try it, figuring I had nothing to lose except my time. Well, it was grouping Air Arms 10.3gr pellets under 1/2" at 25 yards so I didn't go through the trouble of returning it. I haven't shot it much over the intervening months since most of my shooting in the winter is hunting-related and that's the exclusive role of my PCPs.
Well, last weekend I ordered a scope from a guy on the yellow and it came in today. The 2289 had since lost its scope to another rifle so I figured I'd mount it up the new scope to it for a test. No joke, the group pictured here is the first one I shot after tightening the scope rings. I'm astounded it can shoot that well with a big scratch running down it.
Please don't mistake my intent. I'm in no way attempting to minimize the inconvenience that anyone has experienced in trying to coax a crummy barrel to produce good groups. No question Crosman should be embarrassed to ship out barrels in this condition. Just sharing a rather unexpected result.
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I just can't go to bed knowing there is a gun in the house in need of being sighted in. Out comes the flashlight and the 2mm hex key that fits the Sun adjustable scope mounts. A slight adjustment to the windage screws and it's in the bull. Couldn't quite pull a 1/4" group with it at 25 yards but not too shabby for a scratched barrel.
Oh, and yes, it's definitely too much scope for the gun. :o
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I had a slight issue with the Walther barrel on my Crosman Challenger. There was a burr in the barrel where the transfer port was drilled.
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(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/537418_447543118658139_124544570_n.jpg)
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It may have shot itself out eventually but I smoothed it with a file and polished the bore and now it seems to be shooting the Crosman Brown Box pellets pretty well. But this is something simple that shouldn't make it into the box for sale.
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(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/l/t1.0-9/1621844_592387037507079_929906179_n.jpg)
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This is what the crown on my 3 yr old 22 looks like. It's always been a great shooter.
Jimmyk
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/factory22barrel1_zps36d4fabf.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/factory22barrel1_zps36d4fabf.jpg.html)
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^^You should send crosman that pic to post up as a reference next to the crowning machine. ;D
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sooooo ..... is it safe to order a new 24 inch .177 discovery barrel from crosman to use on my DBO/2289 ? if not , is there a place to get one that will be accurate that i won't have to wait months on (mellon) for a reasonable price ?
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sooooo ..... is it safe to order a new 24 inch .177 discovery barrel from crosman to use on my DBO/2289 ? if not , is there a place to get one that will be accurate that i won't have to wait months on (mellon) for a reasonable price ?
If it's a replacement .177 barrel for the Challenger then it should be fine. I understand they are made by Lothar Walther
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I had a slight issue with the Walther barrel on my Crosman Challenger. There was a burr in the barrel where the transfer port was drilled.
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(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/537418_447543118658139_124544570_n.jpg)
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It may have shot itself out eventually but I smoothed it with a file and polished the bore and now it seems to be shooting the Crosman Brown Box pellets pretty well. But this is something simple that shouldn't make it into the box for sale.
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(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/l/t1.0-9/1621844_592387037507079_929906179_n.jpg)
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How much you want to bet that Crosman drilled the transfer port and not Walther ;) :P
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I ended up replacing my .22 barrel on my Mrod with a Lothar walter Chocked. Best Mod on my Mrod.
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Whats got me upset is i ordered 4 barrels over a year ago. Two of them 24" in .177. It was all they had at the time and I figured I could cut them down. Looked em over when I received them and was really disappointed with the blueing. It was really light in color but figured i could easily strip it and redo it. I also ordered two 14" in .22 at the time. Same story. It was all they had. These looked really good. Nice crowns but I didn't really study the bore so much as was pretty busy that day. Shortly after that I got sick for a bit. Then got caught up in work, life and so on and put the mods on the back burner for awhile. I retired last year and am just now getting back into the mods again. So that leads up to the present.
With all the talk about bad barrels I pulled them out the other day and started really looking at them. Same results. The .22 look ok. They've got some rough spots and scratches but its nothing that I couldn't live with. The .177 are &^^& though with the same crown treatment you guys show here. And one of the barrels has a good sized dent in it about half way down on the outside. Inside they look extremely dirty. Almost like filled with sand. Now I've kept them on the top shelf of my closet since I received them so they should not of had any damage happen by me. That the appearance side of things.
Guys have been talking about loose pellets when they try to push one through so I figured what the heck. Let's try it. All 4 barrels are so loose the pellet only feels the rifling at the breech end. On one of the 14" barrels a CPHP 7.9 literally fell into the breech and almost 2 inches into the barrel before it stopped. When I went to push it the rest of the way through it fell out the end of the barrel. The other 3 barrels took little pressure at all to push the pellets through. Because it's been so long I'm stuck with using them or waiting and ordering more from someplace else.
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If that dent in the Barrel was on a disco barrel, that is a tooling mark. I suspect it is used to hold the barrel for the machining of the flats on it. It was on both .177 and .22 disco barrels I had.
Only 30 day warrantee on parts orders and you have to pay return shipping for exchange or refund. Still might try calling customer service and explain what happened. Some days, it just depend on who you talk to.
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Gross barrels.....
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While I worked building single action revolvers in Freedom Wyoming (two Guesses what company) Mr. C suggested we throw away all piloted crowning tools. We did. Your photos illustrate why.
Piloted crowning is a cheap, widely used, lazy, quick, marginally adequate and field expedient means of bypassing set-up time, and the need for skilled labor, but highly susceptible to a litany of snares, side effects and shoddy results, most of which are inevitable. Crosman is only as competent as their expert in charge of the dude at the crowning station...et al.,. Lets hope it is more ignorance than indifference.
My 2260 barrel suffered from;
- Fuzzy lands end to end (lightly lapped with JB paste)
- Uneven crowning (re-crowned)
- Rough throat and port (polished smooth)
- Smeared lands in the last inch near muzzle (see below)
One by one these were corrected. The one that helped the most was lopping off an inch to remove the smeared lands. Now it shoots very very well indeed.
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From my thread I started on my S-Rod Testing..."I got my M-Rod back from Crosman today. They replaced the barrel and sent a target showing a 3+ shot group all within a ragged hole but the distance shot was not noted. First thing I did was inspect the barrel crown and it has no signs of a pilot type crowning tool being used and initial inspection looks good. When I get a chance I will shoot the gun and post results."
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Whats got me upset is i ordered 4 barrels over a year ago. Two of them 24" in .177. It was all they had at the time and I figured I could cut them down. Looked em over when I received them and was really disappointed with the blueing. It was really light in color but figured i could easily strip it and redo it. I also ordered two 14" in .22 at the time. Same story. It was all they had. These looked really good. Nice crowns but I didn't really study the bore so much as was pretty busy that day. Shortly after that I got sick for a bit. Then got caught up in work, life and so on and put the mods on the back burner for awhile. I retired last year and am just now getting back into the mods again. So that leads up to the present.
With all the talk about bad barrels I pulled them out the other day and started really looking at them. Same results. The .22 look ok. They've got some rough spots and scratches but its nothing that I couldn't live with. The .177 are &^^& though with the same crown treatment you guys show here. And one of the barrels has a good sized dent in it about half way down on the outside. Inside they look extremely dirty. Almost like filled with sand. Now I've kept them on the top shelf of my closet since I received them so they should not of had any damage happen by me. That the appearance side of things.
Guys have been talking about loose pellets when they try to push one through so I figured what the heck. Let's try it. All 4 barrels are so loose the pellet only feels the rifling at the breech end. On one of the 14" barrels a CPHP 7.9 literally fell into the breech and almost 2 inches into the barrel before it stopped. When I went to push it the rest of the way through it fell out the end of the barrel. The other 3 barrels took little pressure at all to push the pellets through. Because it's been so long I'm stuck with using them or waiting and ordering more from someplace else.
I wonder if there are any gunsmiths out there who would rebore them to say .20 and rifle them for you at a nominal price? I have had that done with blackpowder muzzleloader barrels but then those barrels cost a lot more than AG barrels seem to go for.
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From my thread I started on my S-Rod Testing..."I got my M-Rod back from Crosman today. They replaced the barrel and sent a target showing a 3+ shot group all within a ragged hole but the distance shot was not noted. First thing I did was inspect the barrel crown and it has no signs of a pilot type crowning tool being used and initial inspection looks good. When I get a chance I will shoot the gun and post results."
Good to hear, and thanks for coming back to give us an update.
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I wonder if there are any gunsmiths out there who would rebore them to say .20 and rifle them for you at a nominal price? I have had that done with blackpowder muzzleloader barrels but then those barrels cost a lot more than AG barrels seem to go for.
LW barrel would be $112 plus shipping (one way) Total around $127
Bebore and rifle round trip shipping would be approx $30. Unless you could have the bore and re-rifling done for well under $97 it seems the LW barrel would be a much better alternative, especially given their quality.
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I wonder if there are any gunsmiths out there who would rebore them to say .20 and rifle them for you at a nominal price? I have had that done with blackpowder muzzleloader barrels but then those barrels cost a lot more than AG barrels seem to go for.
LW barrel would be $112 plus shipping (one way) Total around $127
Bebore and rifle round trip shipping would be approx $30. Unless you could have the bore and re-rifling done for well under $97 it seems the LW barrel would be a much better alternative, especially given their quality.
Where are you finding LW barrels for that price? And is that bolt on ready to go, or just a barrel blank that needs machined to fit the Mrod?
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http://www.lothar-walther.com/454.php (http://www.lothar-walther.com/454.php)
Yes they are just blanks and the last two I received (this past week) were .630 diameter (one for my Kodiak .25 and one for a spare .22 that is a coin toss as to which gun I will put it on... either a 2260 or a QB79 I'm receiving next week).
Most common diameters are available if you are able to wait for inventory to arrive.
Now here's where I eat crow since the price stated in my previous post begins to balloon... :-[
I feel confident your clearance between the air tube and larger barrel will tolerate being .020" closer (1/2 the diameter increase)
Yours Synrod barrel is likely .437 meaning you'd need to order a .470 barrel and have the breech section turned down while duplicating the port and any other Marauder specific details (proper lead countour and nice crown). The only other thing I see that would need addressing is modding (or sourcing) your barrel band for the up-sized barrel dia. I have never worked on a Marauder but have seen quotes of around $200 for drop in ready LW barrels on other forums, which seems fair given the handling, machining and bluing involved.
Wish you lived close by. These details are extremely straight forward and easy to effect with the right tools, which I have. If you have a like minded COMPETENT machinist near by and can convince him to do the work for $50, and find a bluing outfit to blue the finished barrel for $25, you'll have a premium barrel for under $200.
BTW if you order from LW they only accept money orders or checks, (no credit cards).
When ordering it is not uncommon to receive only an confirmation, but NO follow up invoice... meaning months later you will need to try again. >:(
The "work-around" is to submit the request through the web page, and immediately send an email to Woody Woodall requesting confirmation. Ask him to TELL you when your specified size is due in from Europe, and ping him around that time. He is not very good at conversation either in emails or on the phone, but is very efficient once you get him to respond.
Hope this helps. Trust me these barrels are well worth the effort to acquire. I have met with them several times at the annual Shot Show and they are typical European in form, dry, to the point and all business, yet keen to meet your expectations.
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http://www.lothar-walther.com/454.php (http://www.lothar-walther.com/454.php)
Yes they are just blanks and the last two I received (this past week) were .630 diameter (one for my Kodiak .25 and one for a spare .22 that is a coin toss as to which gun I will put it on... either a 2260 or a QB79 I'm receiving next week).
Most common diameters are available if you are able to wait for inventory to arrive.
Now here's where I eat crow since the price stated in my previous post begins to balloon... :-[
I feel confident your clearance between the air tube and larger barrel will tolerate being .020" closer (1/2 the diameter increase)
Yours Synrod barrel is likely .437 meaning you'd need to order a .470 barrel and have the breech section turned down while duplicating the port and any other Marauder specific details (proper lead countour and nice crown). The only other thing I see that would need addressing is modding (or sourcing) your barrel band for the up-sized barrel dia. I have never worked on a Marauder but have seen quotes of around $200 for drop in ready LW barrels on other forums, which seems fair given the handling, machining and bluing involved.
Wish you lived close by. These details are extremely straight forward and easy to effect with the right tools, which I have. If you have a like minded COMPETENT machinist near by and can convince him to do the work for $50, and find a bluing outfit to blue the finished barrel for $25, you'll have a premium barrel for under $200.
BTW if you order from LW they only accept money orders or checks, (no credit cards).
When ordering it is not uncommon to receive only an confirmation, but NO follow up invoice... meaning months later you will need to try again. >:(
The "work-around" is to submit the request through the web page, and immediately send an email to Woody Woodall requesting confirmation. Ask him to TELL you when your specified size is due in from Europe, and ping him around that time. He is not very good at conversation either in emails or on the phone, but is very efficient once you get him to respond.
Hope this helps. Trust me these barrels are well worth the effort to acquire. I have met with them several times at the annual Shot Show and they are typical European in form, dry, to the point and all business, yet keen to meet your expectations.
I wonder,, would it be easier to turn down the barrel OR Bore out the receiver well on the breech. But then i guess that might open up the breech to much and cause thansfer port issues and the the Sites tube would also have to be bored out. Though, that might be pretty simple with a drill press and a small honing tool. I guess turning down the barrel WOULD be the best option after all.
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I wonder,, would it be easier to turn down the barrel OR Bore out the receiver well on the breech. But then i guess the sites tube would also have to be bored out. Though, that might be pretty simple with a drill press and a small honing tool.
I agree. Fit up the breech to accept it as well as the sight and barrel band. Honing tool or a sharp reamer would do to get the fit right like you say.
That's exactly what I planned to do if I use the .630 barrel in the QB79 repeater. Actually intend to sleeve the breech block, and extend the sleeve forward enough to externally thread it for about 1/2". Then I'll turn a barrel nut like an AR15 has, and fit a narrow shank to the barrel OD that the nut captures to press the barrel in... just like an AR. Turning the entire barrel down would be a hateful job without a good steady rest.
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Thanks for all the info ZiaBeam. I know that Jim Gaska at Marmot Militia offers drop in Mrod LW barrels for $220 complete with shroud mount provisions. BUT, those are the .630 barrels which would make what is IMO an already heavy rifle into a pig at that point. My guess is he buys the .630 blanks because they are always in stock, no 4-6 week lead time on those. Meh, it's pretty much a paper puncher anyway, so maybe down the road that's the route I'll go, weight be darned.
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I wonder if there are any gunsmiths out there who would rebore them to say .20 and rifle them for you at a nominal price? I have had that done with blackpowder muzzleloader barrels but then those barrels cost a lot more than AG barrels seem to go for.
LW barrel would be $112 plus shipping (one way) Total around $127
Bebore and rifle round trip shipping would be approx $30. Unless you could have the bore and re-rifling done for well under $97 it seems the LW barrel would be a much better alternative, especially given their quality.
the LW challenger barrel looks to be a option for under $100 delivered .
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,13790.msg181187.html#msg181187 (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,13790.msg181187.html#msg181187)
i called crosman march 26th and the price of part # CH2009-014 is $92.29 + the $4 unlimited S&H . and of course they don't know if that barrel will fit on the 13xx/22xx based pistols . he did say it's the same O.D. but doesn't know if the airport will line up in those pistols . i've got a DBO/2289 (13xx base) carbine . the sleeve under the barrel is a different part number and in the parts PDF look the same (which probably means little to nothing) but if theres a difference i'm thinking nervoustriggers refrigerator water line mod will work it out .
anyone know how long the challenger barrel is ?
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Jim at Marmot now has a TJ's made .5"od barrel for the Mrod as well. Drop in for ~$195.00 ;D
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Jim at Marmot now has a TJ's made .5"od barrel for the Mrod as well. Drop in for ~$195.00 ;D
Enabler ;D I guess that's the route I'll take if I can't any satisfaction with the factory pipes.
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Jim at Marmot now has a TJ's made .5"od barrel for the Mrod as well. Drop in for ~$195.00 ;D
Enabler ;D
??? ??? WHO, Moi? ;D ;D ;D
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I haven't been around in some time, but thought I'd come and give an update on this. After hearing nothing out of Crosman for 3 months on my replacement barrel, even though tracking showed it was signed for on April 2nd, I called them a couple weeks ago. Apparently, they never logged the barrel that was sent back to them as being returned for warranty work, and never contacted me to let me know anything at all. So when I called, they said they'd ship me a new barrel out ASAP. I got my new barrel today, and sadly it appears nothing has been fixed at Crosman almost 4 months after I received the first barrel. The new barrel shows that same gouge marks in the end of the rifling / crown as the others. They obviously don't care about their reputation, or their customers. And that's fine by me, as I no longer care about them, or giving them any of my hard earned money. Lesson learned, I should have saved more money and bought a better gun to begin with.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e148/speedracer93/Webpics/Guns/AIr%20Guns/P1150012Medium_zps4b8a3921.jpg)
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Few things. Crosman has only one "s". Had to say it, sorry.
Also, a lot of barrels that don't look great will still shoot fine. Crown does not have to be pretty to make good groups.
Air rifles are not rimfires, different techniques can be effective.
And Crosman makes relatively inexpensive PCPs. Expecting MOA out of one of the least expensive repeater rifles may not be reasonable.
Nothing personal, but Crossman does have 2 S's... the second one stands for SLOPPY' I have had 3 barrels from Crosman and none of them are any good, total scrap metal. Also, if the crown doesn't look good it is probably Not good and yes the crown on any gun has to be perfect.
All my barrels looked like WNCmotard's barrel, you will find a lot of bad .22 barrels from Crosman on this forum!
Just my 2 cents worth and I will stick to it, just dont give me a nickle cause I'll be lost lol
William
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This is why I steer clear of Crosman products. "Oh we sent you a bad crowned barrel? Here we'll send you another one again without even inspecting it."
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I have to say something.
I recently bought a disco. It is the most accurate weapon i have ever fired. Crosman has been nothing but great in their customer service [bent bolt handle due to shipping company]
I believe they listen and are working to keep us happy.
Thank you Crosman
Tommy
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It looks like I also got lucky with my .177 Disco, as it is quite accurate with the cheap CPHP. It does better with a few other pellets, but not for the price!
I haven't looked at the crown or other machined parts of the barrel though, and it could be exactly the same as others here, and I just got lucky. However it is though, I'm not changing it any time soon!
Good luck to the rest of you, hopefully you will find a barrel that works well for you, or a different company known for good barrels!
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I used to have a sweet 2400KT build that had a 24" .177 barrel on it. Shot lights out with boxed CP domes.