GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: airgunwarriors on December 20, 2013, 04:31:24 PM
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A "Cold-Sider" at heart , with the weather the way it is, have decided to give PCP a shot.
Getting the new "FLYING DRAGON-PCP AIR-RIFLE" in .177 Caliber.
www.flyingdragonairrifles.org (http://www.flyingdragonairrifles.org)
At 1500-psi, using 8.3-grain pellet, expecting 1000-fps, with a Full-Power Shot Count of about 20-25 per fill.
The Tube can handle a lot more than 1500-psi, but since I will be using the Hand-Pump from FDAR, pretty sure I'll stick with the 1500-psi.
The Power Setting can be easily adjusted.
Look forward to being able to shoot, regardless of outside temperatures! ;D
Respectfully,
Al.
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Thats cool Al ,filling to 3000psi aint no joke for me that is, but with your fdar at 1500psi and shot count of 25 i say u have quite easy ...i like the sound of it ,if its the b50 i hear they come close to the daystate huntsman ags ...from 1500psi to ? u go before pumping back to 1500 ? is it manually adjusted to go up to 3000psi ?does it effect the power or accuratecy ? ....have fun and enjoy ;)....jorge
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Thats cool Al ,filling to 3000psi aint no joke for me that is, but with your fdar at 1500psi and shot count of 25 i say u have quite easy ...i like the sound of it ,if its the b50 i hear they come close to the daystate huntsman ags ...from 1500psi to ? u go before pumping back to 1500 ? is it manually adjusted to go up to 3000psi ?does it effect the power or accuratecy ? ....have fun and enjoy ;)....jorge
Thanks!:)
Actually, it is based on the XS60C with a different Tube, NOT THE STOCK Co2 TUBE!!!
(I would not go beyond 1800-psi myself, as 1500-psi seems to be plenty good.)
I'm guessing on the shot count being close to 20-25, based on what I have read on this Forum, should be really close.
There's a lot more information at the FDAR section of this Forum on this new PCP.
As far as pumping it up, should be starting from the high 700s or low 800s-psi, not too much work.
Hope that helps!
Respectfully,
Al.
p.s. After I get it and tool around with it some, I'll be able to provide more accurate information on the .177 Model. Have the F1 Chrony on the way as well, so that will be a huge help in providing accurate information.
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Hope to see more details soon seems like a good rifle to me with those features.
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Hope to see more details soon seems like a good rifle to me with those features.
For only $100.00, your right!:)
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with a Tube that is rated for up to 6000-psi from what I understand
If you mean the extension tube, depending on material, I can well believe it has a maximum safe working pressure of 6000 psi.... However, the tube of the gun itself, made of unknown material adn only designed for CO2, with a maximum pressure of 1900 psi at 120*F (the maximum "safe" temperature for CO2) wouldn't be designed to have a MSWP of 6000 psi.... I might hae a BURST rating of 6000 psi, but that is an entirely different thing.... I would be VERY cautious of making statements of what you "understand" because they tend to get quoted as gospel by the time it's third hand....
Bob
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with a Tube that is rated for up to 6000-psi from what I understand
If you mean the extension tube, depending on material, I can well believe it has a maximum safe working pressure of 6000 psi.... However, the tube of the gun itself, made of unknown material adn only designed for CO2, with a maximum pressure of 1900 psi at 120*F (the maximum "safe" temperature for CO2) wouldn't be designed to have a MSWP of 6000 psi.... I might hae a BURST rating of 6000 psi, but that is an entirely different thing.... I would be VERY cautious of making statements of what you "understand" because they tend to get quoted as gospel by the time it's third hand....
Bob
The Flying Dragon-PCP comes with a totally different Tube from the Stock Factory Co2 Tube for those of you that do not know.
Again, I personally would not exceed 1800-psi.
All comments are in reference to a PCP Air-Rifle Model with a Tube specially designed for that purpose, not a Co2 Tube.
Respectfully,
Al.
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So the tube is designed for a 6000 psi maximum safe working pressure (MSWP)?.... or is that it's ultimate strength at yield?.... or at burst?.... They are three VERY different things....
My original statement still applies.... and to go along with it, I will extend my comments to all the fittings and fastenings on the gun?.... Are the valve mounting screws rated to withstand a 6000 psi safe WORKING pressure?.... how about the fittings?.... or do you simply not know?.... All fasteners and fittings, and the main tube itself should be designed to have AT LEAST a 2:1 safety margin to their yield strength, which if the gun is to be considered safe at 6000 psi, they should be able to withstand 12,000 without showing any distortion.... Their failure point should be even higher....
Bob
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Thanks Al, have my eye on one of those as well, but probably in .22. I am very interested in your review of the gun when you receive it.
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Al ,i just saw them pcp,s u talking bout ,they are cool and im very interested in one myself however im sure mike checks them before shipping if it has accuratecy like thwem qbs im in ...thanks ...jorge
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Al ,i just saw them pcp,s u talking bout ,they are cool and im very interested in one myself however im sure mike checks them before shipping if it has accuratecy like thwem qbs im in ...thanks ...jorge
Yes, as with all of his Air-Guns, I'm quite sure he does a Pre-Buy Inspection on these as well.
For the price, you can't go wrong imho.
Thanks!:)
Al.
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Bob, would you be able to access what is a safe working pressure for the xs60c pcp? I have tried to find as much info on it as I could over the past few months. I had purchased an extended tube made from 4130 steel 22mm x1.5mm tube from Anthony R. that I was considering using for pcp. Then I saw Mike's newest offering and I had to have one. In my reading the main concern that I have found is the threading in the receiver that holds the pressure tube being the weak link because it's a soft aluminum. Is this true and if so can it be fastened with a screw or pin? Does the valve need upgraded fastening? If it is safe or can be made safe I would like to be able to use a 2000+ psi fill if not I'm more than happy with it at 1500.
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Jason,
How do you go about filling your Flying Dragon-PCP?
Thanks!
Al.
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I'm using one of Mike's pumps I bought for the B50. Pumping the xs60pcp to 1500psi is a breeze.
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Like the low pressure concept, love the price.
Am sure I'd live within the recommended pressure limits, they are probably there for a good reason....would like to know the "why" of that, but as Mike definately knows his arse from his elbow, will take his word on it.
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Like the low pressure concept, love the price.
Am sure I'd live within the recommended pressure limits, they are probably there for a good reason....would like to know the "why" of that, but as Mike definately knows his arse from his elbow, will take his word on it.
Ditto!
Al.
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Like the low pressure concept, love the price.
Am sure I'd live within the recommended pressure limits, they are probably there for a good reason....would like to know the "why" of that, but as Mike definately knows his arse from his elbow, will take his word on it.
I believe the reason is because anything much above 1700 you will get valve lock. I'm going on what I read in a thread in the dealer support forum.
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Thinking that at this pressure level on air, would probably make a fine dual use rifle. Co2 in summer/PCP in winter. Not that much difference in operating pressure, just a different gas, so there may not be a need for any major adjustments when switching.
If you're into bulk filling co2 rather than PCP, might still be a winner.
(got near 80F here today... so still just fine for playing with co2 outside).
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Thinking that at this pressure level on air, would probably make a fine dual use rifle. Co2 in summer/PCP in winter. Not that much difference in operating pressure, just a different gas, so there may not be a need for any major adjustments when switching.
If you're into bulk filling co2 rather than PCP, might still be a winner.
(got near 80F here today... so still just fine for playing with co2 outside).
Very hot here today as well!
Wow, very good point!
Would be a great feature, if you are correct.
Dual Power Air-Rifle for $100.00!
Great!:)
Respectfully,
Al.
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I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to the strength of any attachments or threads, as we simply don't know the material.... As far as the 4130 tubing you mentioned goes (22mm x 1.5mm), assuming it's seamless or certified, it would have a yield pressure of 9939 psi and a burst of 15302 psi.... Using a 3:1 safety margin to yield, that works out to a MSWP of 3300 psi.... I would NEVER suggest using that tubing to 6000 psi, even at 2:1 you would only be able to use 5000.... and ONLY if the rest of the system has at least a 2:1 safety margin to yield at those pressures....
I certainly agree that Mike knows his stuff.... but I would once again ask the OP if he knows if 6000 psi is the MSWP, the yield pressure, or the burst pressure.... If he doesn't know, he should either find out, or TELL US that he doesn't know.... Sticking your head in the sand is NOT ACCEPTABLE when it comes to safety with HPA.... Comments casually left on the GTA that have to do with safety should be challenged when unsubstantiated, IMO.... and I will continue to do so as a Moderator in the PCP Gate....
EDIT: It would have been nice had you mentioned that you edited your original post to remove the reference to 6000 psi.... but in any case, thank you for doing so....
Bob
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Bob I think it is great that when it comes to safety you don't hesitate, and jump right on board questioning and making suggestions. Tip o' the hat to ya!
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Bob,
It takes a lot to get a "rise" out of me, but you Sir have succeeded.
I edited the post to make you happy, but you don't want to let it go??? I edited it for your concerns!
For one, my "head is not in the sand", just so that we are clear and that everyone knows, before editing, this is what it said:
"It is my understanding that the Tubes are rated for 6000-psi.?."
Immediately followed with:
"I personally would not exceed 1700-1800".
I pulled that information directly from a statement made by MM in his section.
You then came at me with this, based on my above post:
"If you mean the extension tube, depending on material, I can well believe it has a maximum safe working pressure of 6000 psi.... However, the tube of the gun itself, made of unknown material adn only designed for CO2, with a maximum pressure of 1900 psi at 120*F (the maximum "safe" temperature for CO2) wouldn't be designed to have a MSWP of 6000 psi.... I might hae a BURST rating of 6000 psi, but that is an entirely different thing.... I would be VERY cautious of making statements of what you "understand" because they tend to get quoted as gospel by the time it's third hand....
Bob"
This post is a bout a PCP Air-Rifle with a PCP Tube.
You keep coming at me, implying that I remotely suggested someone fill to 6000-psi, never happened.
Where did that come from?
I never even implied the Tube being a Co2 Tube, so where did that come from?
"Threads", I never mentioned threads, where did that come from?
All of this is based on me saying what my understanding is about something?
Is it safe to assume that where Mike also mentions the fact that the Tube (on a post about a PCP Air-Rifle) is rated for 6000-psi, that people will be smart enough not to try it? That they will NOT think it is the "gospel"? Should we not have him warn those who might be foolish enough to try it?
Then this:
"but I would once again ask the OP if he knows if 6000 psi is the MSWP, the yield pressure, or the burst pressure.... If he doesn't know, he should either find out, or TELL US that he doesn't know.... Sticking your head in the sand is NOT ACCEPTABLE when it comes to safety with HPA.... Comments casually left on the GTA that have to do with safety should be challenged when unsubstantiated, IMO.... and I will continue to do so as a Moderator in the PCP Gate...."
Again, all from my "understanding"?
Members of GTA, It is not my intent for any Members to be harmed, I sincerely apologize if someone would think that my word could be remotely close to being "the gospel".
I only edited it because Bob made sense about some people misconstruing my "questionable understanding", even after stating that "I would not exceed 1700-1800-psi."
Bob, I promise I am not trying to get members of GTA hurt.
I'm floored that you came at me like this over my above statements, or maybe it was because I was not responding to you?
Regardless of what it was, I hope that you are satisfied now and that you will leave it be.
Respectfully,
Al.
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Al, I don't know Bob at all but I can tell you from the hundreds of posts that I've read of his, he is just trying to make sure no one misunderstands just how dangerous high pressures can be. I know that his post may have gotten to you but I'm quite sure it was not meant as a personal attack. Some of his statements were answering my questions i had asked earlier in the post about the receiver's aluminum threads that hold the tube in. I'm not trying to speak for him or anyone else just trying to break the tension a little.
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O.k.,
The more I read and learn about PCP Air-Guns, the more excited about the Flying Dragon-PCP coming my way.
I look forward to others that will be getting this PCP as well, especially those that are knowledgeable about Air-Gun Tuning and Modifications.
Should any Flying Dragon-PCP Owners discover ways to improve on the already great performance on these PCP's produce at 1500-psi, I will definitely be making an effort to learn how to perform those improvements myself.
Will be very fun and interesting to say the least.
Again, I like the idea of anything 2000-psi or below, especially when using a Hand-Pump!
So hopefully any improvements based on a higher psi will not exceed the 2000-psi mark.
Regardless, I'm sure (based on the preliminary test numbers from MM) that the Flying Dragon-PCP will be impressive to shoot right out of the box!
I've an F1 Chrony on the way, so hopefully I too will be able to provide some .177 Caliber data for those that are interested.
Cannot wait to start hearing feed-back from others that too will own this extremely inexpensive, yet awesome PCP!
Respectfully,
Al.
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Al, since you don't know what the 6000 psi you originally referred to means (MSWP, yield, or burst) please give me a reference to the post by Mike Melick (which you now refer to) that I might ask my question at the source.... Doing that earlier would have saved us both a lot of grief....
Bob
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The supplier specs are for 6000 work pressure, I wanted to make sure it was over safe at 1500...rifle locks up at much more than that so it could be over filled but will not fire. Valve can take much more as I tested up to 4000 psi on prototype with nothing blowing. did get the tube to let go when hit by a 3 lb. mall at that pressure...flew about 20 yards so don't hit the darn things with a hammer if you have it pumped to 4000psi....
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did I mention that I love this place?
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HI Mike....
Thanks for chiming in, sorry to be so persistent, but safety is my #1 concern.... You say that:
The supplier specs are for 6000 work pressure
so I must assume it's a much thicker wall than a stock tube, or some pretty amazing material.... The chart I use for CrMoly is as follows:
http://www.goodyearrubberproducts.com/files/Parker/ParkerTubeCatalog4300/Parker%20Tube%20Catalog%204300examin1.Page470.pdf (http://www.goodyearrubberproducts.com/files/Parker/ParkerTubeCatalog4300/Parker%20Tube%20Catalog%204300examin1.Page470.pdf)
You will note that 7/8" OD x 0.065" wall CrMoly is 3000 psi working pressure.... The standard tube size on a QB 78XX is 22mm OD x 1.5mm wall which is not as strong when made from the same material.... Anyway, when I see a claim that is about double what I'm used to, I question it, I hope you understand why....
Thanks for clearing it up, I'm glad to know that the tube, at least, is capable of being used safely to 6000 psi.... Do you have any idea where the weak link is so that we can give GTA members some idea of what the maximum safe pressure is for the gun?.... Since you tesetd to 4000 psi, are you saying that is safe, or half that (ie 2000?).... While your point about the hammer spring limiting the pressure the way you supply the gun is valid, we all know that it won't be long before somebody installs a heavier hammer spring and tries more pressure....
Bob
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Any pics of this rifle ?
Whats the final price on a .22 fully tuned out,estimated FPE ?
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I'm going to stick my nose in here. When designing a pressure vessel, the most important thing to have is the MTR for the material to be used, anything else is guesswork.
This is the MTR for the tubing I used for my pumper build, and am using for my 2100 to PCP conversion. The tube heat # is 545695.
(http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/bowens440/TopBMP_zps13304dcb.jpg)
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Any pics of this rifle ?
Whats the final price on a .22 fully tuned out,estimated FPE ?
www.flyingdragonairrifles.org (http://www.flyingdragonairrifles.org)
Go to news and annoucments, there you will see pictures of this beautiful PCP!:)
Respectfully,
Al.
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Any pics of this rifle ?
Whats the final price on a .22 fully tuned out,estimated FPE ?
Pictures here as well as more information:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=57905.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=57905.0)
Give Mike a call or shoot him an e-mail, he's great about getting back with people!
Respectfully,
Al.
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all I have to go on for pressure related info is what I am told....the tube is much thicker than the stock one,approx 7/8 od by just under 3/4 id., safety is #1 with me also and I tested the things the best I can, I know that some place at sometime one of these is going to have a problem as a customer can think up things to try that aren't meant for the units to go through...The weak link is where the tube enters the body of the receiver, when I distrut tested with the hammer it broke out the bottom but didn't loosen the valve, darn valve was still held in place by the screw....2000 psi can be used but I am not going to recommend it just to be safe
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Thanks for the redirect,best to just sit this out abit while ya'll hammer out some more decisive detail(s)
It looks like it may turn into a $300+ PCP pretty quick(tuned/pump/brake)
Standing by . . . . . 8)
Any pics of this rifle ?
Whats the final price on a .22 fully tuned out,estimated FPE ?
Pictures here as well as more information:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=57905.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=57905.0)
Give Mike a call or shoot him an e-mail, he's great about getting back with people!
Respectfully,
Al.
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manufacturers mostly build these things to handle 3x the maximum recommended operating pressures for safety reasons. Designed to operate at 1500 psi, looks to me like Mike built in a little extra margin for safety. Like he already stated, he hit it with a 3pound mall at 4k psi and it turned into a projectile. Maximum operating pressure for materials and safe operating pressure for something that will be handled like a gun in the woods are two different things. Oh, and I am pretty sure there isn't a production pcp rifle that won't valve lock at less than 6k psi. I think Mike's 1500 psi pcp is a hand pumper's ideal rifle. Might be a nice option for the shtf crowd as well.
Edit- it just dawned on me- this rifle is a 1,000 fps gun in .177 on a 1500 psi fill. Instead of trying to figure out how much pressure or power you can get out of the gun, why not tune for efficiency with the power level at around 800-850 fps using 8-8.5 grain pellets? Keeping them in the ideal velocity range for accuracy with pellets you can find on most store shelves, still enough power for bunnies and and squirrels to fifty or sixty yards easily given you can hit your mark. Then you'd have an accurate and powerful gun, super easy to fill with a hand pump, that is inexpensive and likes cheap pellets...
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Great thread! I questioned Mike on the fill capacity and he recommended 1500 psi. I charged it to 1500 and shot 8 rounds with open sites, all touched except for one at 10 yards and I think I pulled that one. Shot the Benji domes. I will try to crony later this week. This gun is a lightweight hunter for sure. I only shot 8 rounds so there maybe more capacity, I just had some time to shoot quick target..Jim..
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Great thread! I questioned Mike on the fill capacity and he recommended 1500 psi. I charged it to 1500 and shot 8 rounds with open sites, all touched except for one at 10 yards and I think I pulled that one. Shot the Benji domes. I will try to crony later this week. This gun is a lightweight hunter for sure. I only shot 8 rounds so there maybe more capacity, I just had some time to shoot quick target..Jim..
Get any Chrony time in yet by any chance?
Thanks!
Al.
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Sorry Al, didn't get a chance to do a crony on it. Drive a big truck for one of the big package companies that deliver to your door. I got a FD rifle I haven't even shot yet and I am back out on the road and won't be home for a while. I love it and I am trying to keep up on all the info you guys are putting out there.
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Sorry Al, didn't get a chance to do a crony on it. Drive a big truck for one of the big package companies that deliver to your door. I got a FD rifle I haven't even shot yet and I am back out on the road and won't be home for a while. I love it and I am trying to keep up on all the info you guys are putting out there.
That's o.k., I understand.
Be safe out there on the road!:)
Al.