GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Paul68 on May 16, 2012, 08:13:40 PM
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Second replacement arrived today. Good news is that it appears unmolested, has a good finish, and all outward cosmestic features appear decent. The barrel is not German finish and bluing, but much better than the first two rifles I received. No opened bags, major nicks, scratches, zebra stripe bluing etc etc. One tiny silver nick on the receiver. I saved my tophat from the last 125 and still have the JM seal, so that will be going into this rifle.
The bad so far is that the piston has the now infamous chunk of casting flash at the cocking tab. Sizeable piece too. If it got loose, more than likely would cause some issues. Of course, it is dripping in oil ::) Not even going to fire this rifle once.
It gets tore down straight from the box and gone over with a magnifying glass. :P
I just cannot bring myself to like the honking huge monster of a "moderator" they've put on the end of the barrel. It'll have to go as soon as I determine the best way to deal with it.
I'll be doing a detailed tear down and cleanup in the machine shop gate within a day or two. Tear down starts tonight.
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Looking forward to your review on it. Good luck with it.
Jeff
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ok sounds great, take a pic of that casting flash in the chamber so e can see it tnaks brent
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Disassembled.
Not pretty inside.
At least the seal is in "better" shape. Not great, just better. The gouges are smaller and the metal embedded in it is smaller.
Inside the piston is loaded with metal shavings. The plastic button the spring rides on is covered with em. I pulled more out with my magnet but couldn't get the camera to focus. Also pulled some shavings out of the compression chamber.
Should have done this teardown before shooting with the first rifle and avoided the hassle. Those folks who are getting a strong 125-Sniper out of the box IMHO are EXTREMELY lucky.
This is just plain pathetic workmanship, even for mass production. None of the Chinese rifles I tore down were anywhere near this bad.
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That is rough looking work! Will be watching your progress.
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I'm done.....putting my money back into firearms. Ordered three lowers and an upper this week.
Will start new Ar builds soon. Picked up a nice 44 snubby also. So long Hatsans.
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Well, the operation was a success and the patient is running around blowing holes in things ;D
Not twang whatsoever, and it hits hard.
I'm done for the night. I'll put up pics and what not later.
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Hmm, you should send all your pics to the Turkish Hatsan so you can see what a lot of customers are dealing with. It is really unacceptable. Maybe even post them on their facebook?
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mines going out for tune up and gas ram conversion soon. cant even shoot mine right now, ill cock it then it will not fire for some reason. ill get it to go off then get it to fire good then it will do it again. I dont feel comfortable pulling the gun apart so ill just stick with the disco and 2240 for now
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I am surprised to see that mess of a piston on a Hatsan. My mod55S(pre Quattro) had a very nicely turned piston. It was polished stainless steel. I ruined that one by drilling out too much steel to lighten it. Got another one out of a trashed mod70 and it was the same high quality machining. Lightened that one but not so much. The rifle shot very well for a while until I went too far playing with the trigger and bent the barrel twice. It is at the back of the cupboard for a while but one day I will ........
My mod 99 I have not touched apart from cleaning the barrel. With a 3-9 x 50 Leapers it is a very accurate rifle but does need to be held properly. The Quattro trigger is very light but after shooting a Diana it takes a two or three shots to adjust to the different feel and the very light first pressure.
I can not say what the machining is like inside because there has been no reason to delve into the inside of the rifle. It just shoots well and I am happy with that. A bit noisy though in the spring area. For $NZ 299 it is very good value and nicely finished but not in the top league of air rifles.
Our rifle prices are much higher than in the USA even allowing for exchange rates.
That piston makes me wonder if they turned out some cheapies to ship to you or someone tried to make a dollar out of the rejects.
Even my machining skills have turned out experimental pistons that are better than that.
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Wow,cant believe it left the factory like that.Unreal.Send Hatsan those pictures.
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I am surprised to see that mess of a piston on a Hatsan. My mod55S(pre Quattro) had a very nicely turned piston. It was polished stainless steel. I ruined that one by drilling out too much steel to lighten it. Got another one out of a trashed mod70 and it was the same high quality machining. Lightened that one but not so much. The rifle shot very well for a while until I went too far playing with the trigger and bent the barrel twice. It is at the back of the cupboard for a while but one day I will ........
My mod 99 I have not touched apart from cleaning the barrel. With a 3-9 x 50 Leapers it is a very accurate rifle but does need to be held properly. The Quattro trigger is very light but after shooting a Diana it takes a two or three shots to adjust to the different feel and the very light first pressure.
I can not say what the machining is like inside because there has been no reason to delve into the inside of the rifle. It just shoots well and I am happy with that. A bit noisy though in the spring area. For $NZ 299 it is very good value and nicely finished but not in the top league of air rifles.
Our rifle prices are much higher than in the USA even allowing for exchange rates.
That piston makes me wonder if they turned out some cheapies to ship to you or someone tried to make a dollar out of the rejects.
Even my machining skills have turned out experimental pistons that are better than that.
These are problems that several of us here on this forum have run into. The unfinished piston with loose casting or machining flash appears to be commonplace as at least three others besides myself on this forum alone have reported it. What we are getting are nothing special. Hatsan USA puts in an order, and Hatsan Arms in Turkey ships em a crateful.
Some folks on here are reporting no problems and great performance from their Hatsans. Personally, this is my third attempt at getting a decent 125. The first was so bad internally that the loose metal shavings destroyed the walls of the compression chamber. The second replacement sent to me by Hatsan USA was manhandled, the wrong caliber and a serious mess. Finally, we have this one which I tore down before ever firing a shot, and you can see the internals.
I've decided to forget the step by step disassembly and rebuild post because frankly I just don't have the time for it and once you get past the cleanup of the loose shavings and boogered piston, the rest is pretty standard stuff.
Only actual modification I made was to install a tophat I made. I simply threw away the cheap plastic button they use and replaced it with a tophat and one polished washer between the tophat and the piston. Polished the spring ends up, polished the rear spring guide washer, moly'd everything and lightly tarred the spring, then put it back together.
The pics below show the rear piston slot after cleanup with a triangle file and the finished piston with new seal. I then went over the edges with a Dremel and 320 grit after using the file to smooth it all up. The tophat got a final polishing as well.
Although I won't go through the repair process, I will do a review once I get a chance to put 100 or so shots through it.
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Piston seal looks like the one I took out of the 125TH. First time to replace a seal on the hatson and it was a job to get it on. I finally pressed it on. The strange thing is when I tore down the WFH after a year of shooting the insides looked great and the piston seal was good enough to re use. The rest of the pictures looked like my Remington NPSS. Metal everwhere.
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Would any of these internal parts benefit from anti-wear powder coatings,the type baked on?
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I'm done.....putting my money back into firearms. Ordered three lowers and an upper this week.
Will start new Ar builds soon. Picked up a nice 44 snubby also. So long Hatsans.
All good,and I have several big guns...but some of us want something we can legally shoot in our city type backyard ranges. It's either throwing rocks or shooting air rifles,and bless the state of Va.,for giving me the allowance of shooting an air rifle!
Yeah Hatsan has their QC troubles,but a lot of other things do too.It's still a hard hitting .25 cal rifle,when all is well.
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Ya got to love that .25 caliber. I am quite impressed with it.
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Thanks Paul, I am a step behind you in the playing out this cruel charade and now have an untouched/unfired replacement 125 sniper .22 still sitting in the plastic. The debris in the cocking slot is visible through the plastic bag so I am now just shooting my compound bow and taking 30 days to plan my next move.
Thanks again Paul you have been lots of help !
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Hopefully I can now just break it in and play with it without issues. Ordering a Chrony in a minute, so by next week I'll have some useful numbers.
Yeah, Forty, this thing is definitely a hammer now that it's smoothed out and shootable. It's putting 21 gr Barracudas through my fire barrel at 23 yrds ;D ;D
Still needs break in, but looks like I have another keeper.
@TlfT- If you haven't done any breakdowns on springers, I definitely would not recommend making this one your first. There are several small issues that can bite you if you aren't prepared for em. I'd suggest contacting Shadow or perhaps Mike Melick at http://Flyingdragonairrifles.com (http://Flyingdragonairrifles.com) and see if they'll hook you up with a lube and tune. I'm very impressed with how smooth the shooting cycle is with the tophat added. No spring twang at all and I put only the lightest coat of tar on the spring.
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So the top hat,you made in middle picture, serves as a spring locator,to prevent the spring from bouncing around when fired? I would like to get rid of most of that twang also. I might be getting into this thing soon.
Can't be much harder than rebuilding a Rochester Quadrajet carb...as far as lot's of little pieces! ;D
Will have to plan out the required spring compressor tooling.
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The tophat helps center the spring in the piston and allows it to coil and uncoil more freely. Mine is steel, so I made it as short as possible to avoid adding any more weight to the piston than necessary. I fitted it to slip into the piston with just enough room to move freely, but not rattle around. It fits in the spring with a very slight interference fit. It is loose enough in the spring to twist easily by hand, but with no noticeable play. I put a polished washer the same diameter as the tophat between the tophat and piston to try and reduce friction as much as possible. Everything got a smear of Moly as it was put in.
This arrangement worked very well on my Ruger Air Hawk so I applied it here. On the last 125 which I made this tophat for, it made a twangy beast into a slightly twangy beast considering the gun had a lot of other issues. I did not shoot this gun without it, but the other two I had were twangy as all get out. On this 125 the difference is night and day compared to them.
Bevel the sharp edges of the spring ends where they are cut with a Dremel or file and smooth em with 220 grit so they don't gouge the tophat or rear spring guide, then polish the spring ends, lightly tar the spring and moly all the contact points, and it should make a night and day difference.
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Is the piston a straight diameter through out it's length? If weight is an issue,could you not make several relief cuts in places,to trim some mass and reduce sliding friction?
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The piston is beefy and slightly flared at each end. If I were being critical I would just drill the piston to reduce weight and rebalance to account for the tophat, but I think since I'll be later upgrading this to a gas spring, and will be using heavier pellets, the tophat doesn't add enough weight to cause issues. It shoots very well, so it's adequate.
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How does she group Paul??
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Too danged busy to really sit down and do some accuracy work and it still isn't broke in. Right now it likes Crow Mags and does about 1" to 3/4" at 25 yrds shooting from the knee. Blew a hole through my steel shooting chair from about 30 yrds lol. Looking forward to my chrony arriving next week.
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you're gunna go crazy with that chrony :o
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... from what I saw in the returned TH, these guns should be capable of 33 fpe with a tune.
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So I go out to meet with a client and take care of some website issues for him. He owns a sporting good store. Right before I am about to leave, he says "Hold on a minute, wanna show ya something".
He then pulls down a new in box Walther Talon Magnum.
"I knew you were into these and they were clearancing em at my supplier, think ya might want it?"
Short story shorter, he got it for next to nuthin, and I got it for nuthin. Well, I'll be giving him a deal on some website work, but for all intents, a nice deal. I haven't even gotten the Sniper squared away yet, and another Hatsan is hiding out in my garage now.
I will say, the Walther looks wayyy better than any of the Hatsans I've gotten so far. Even better than the Sniper. The bluing and finish is actually decent, there's no oil all over it, and the portion of the piston I can see looks like it has clean sharp edges and none of the casting flash. Haven't fired it, and not going to till I tear it down, put in a tophat and lube it, but cocking it halfway produced the familiar dying goose honk.
It's got the two screw stock and quatro trigger.
When I titled this thread "So it begins", I had no idea how true it would be :o
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Glad you got a true good gun now and I would bet you will not have the issues you have had with this gun. The Walther 's were good out of the box.
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Paul, what causes the dreaded dying goose honk ? Brent
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Paul, what causes the dreaded dying goose honk ? Brent
unless there's more than one possible cause it's the dry seal rubbing in the compression tube, I think it is meant to go away when the gun is broken in?
My Striker was doing it for a while and was starting to quieten down when I stripped it and lubed it.
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Yeah, dry and tight fitting seal. They put some grease on the spring, and when opened up there is clearly oil on the piston, but it seems like a very thin oil. Almost reminds me of solvent or brake fluid rather than oil. I much prefer a very light touch of moly or teflon lube behind the seal to help smooth things during break-in, but that's my personal preference. The standard tuner recommendation is a very thin smear of moly on the piston going about 1" behind the seal during assembly.
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It never ends with these things does it?
After less than 500 shots, the trigger on the Sniper has malfunctioned. Cocked the gun and it made a strange clunk sound. The trigger then would not release the piston and the gun would not fire. Jostled it a bit to see if it would misfire. Would not. Broke the barrel open to try recocking and the trigger released in mid stroke. The cocking arm caught the piston, but seems to have been damaged at the contact point between the piston slot and cocking arm. Gun now will not cock, will not close properly, and goes all the way to engagement and the trigger will not engage.
And no, I did nothing to the trigger.
I will tear this pile of garbage down one more time and see if it can be repaired. If not it gets broken in half and thrown in the trash.
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Thanks for your posts... I've been looking around in this gate, curious about Hatsans... I think I'll wait a few years before thinking about buying one and hopefully the QC gets better, with problems ironed out. I think for the price that they go for, a customer shouldn't be having these problems...
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I can't believe what I'm reading. What now?
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That was my thought exactly Micro. "What now", except with a few colorful descriptive phrases thrown in. I'll tear it open later, I just don't much care at this point about this rifle.
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How did it group?
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Was getting about a little over an inch at 25 yrds. It was pellet fussy and would only shoot Crow Mags with any accuracy. Hated everything else I fed it except JSB's which it did about 1 1/2 inch with.
Sent ya an e-mail Steve.
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Wow...sorry to hear about another bad rifle! If this is a .25 cal....I forgot what you had... my Sniper doesn't like the Crow Mags. They seem to have a loose fit when you load them too. The 19.9 H&N fit really well in the chamber and have excellent performance.
If you have damaged parts,will you be making your own?
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Wont have to make anything, I think.
I just took the trigger assembly apart. And guess what?......
Wait for it.......
Metal shavings....
The sear was jammed up with metal shavings. UN... Frickin...Real.
Time to see if I can smooth it up.
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Geez. This is so tragic. Im really sorry Paul. I have no advice on this one. Im just going to remail speechless.
About that email... HOLLY FREAKIN' SMOKES DUDE!!! You totally stopped the World for me. Thanks for working so hard on that for me. Seriously.
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Took the trigger assembly apart (Thanfully its simple) and polished it all up. Polished everything but the contact areas on the load points. Lubed everything with very thin film of bearing grease.Whole different trigger now. Back to our regularly scheduled drama ::)
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No prob Steve. Was going to do the detailed post thing, then thought better of it given the potential for problems. I think I covered everything. Just take your time.
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mine wont work with the headless screws any more, ill get it to work for 1 shot then the next it will cokc but wont fire with the trigger. had to install the normal screw again and it now works, but the trigger is bad, way to heavy and not smooth feeling. If I knew these guns trigger were so poor I would have just save up more money and bought something different
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sawtoothscream ,
your doing somthing incorrectly, no one else has had this problem. explain exactly how you install the new srews and how many turns etc. brent
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it worked for a long time with them but im sure I messed it up. I tried the factory screws again because the headless wouldnt stay in place. then I removed the screw thats closer to the end of the barrel and installed the headless and left the factory screw closest to trigger in. Thats when the problems started and now the headless wont work for more then a shot or 2 before it wont fire. I reinstalled them like I did the first time and it just doesnt work right. thinking something messed up when I left the factory screw in the back and installed the headless. Dont really feel comfortable tearing apart the trigger to see whats up
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The trigger on the Hatsans is surprisingly easy to disassemble and reassemble. Found out the hard way :D If you are not confident in dealing with the trigger, bite the bullet, play it safe, and send it out.
Three things I have found here that might be of use. Keep in mind this is trigger work and so you undertake it at your own risk, although in this case it sounds like you already have an unsafe condition and what I have done does not modify the trigger in any way. I can only tell you what I did and that it worked to fix my sticking trigger.
#1. The original screws have a poor finish on the contact point. It seems to eat at the bottom sear surface somewhat and either result in a trigger that smooths out with use, or gets increasingly rough. Those longer screws probably have no type of finish on the contact point at all and are grabbing into the sear rather than sliding along it. I'd take the original screws and use 400 grit to polish up the contact points till you can detect no burrs or roughness and put them back in. I'd then take out the bottom sear and lightly smooth ONLY the surface the screws contact. Do not polish the points where the sears enage each other. A very thin film of moly on the screw contact surface of the sear, just enough to color it, would finish the job.
#2. This part is a bit more of a hassle just because its more work. The last two 125's I tore down had an extremely tight trigger housing. All the trigger components obviously are sandwiched within the housing and are squeezed on both sides by the housing. I have found that the housing can squeeze them so hard they actually get wedged into place and it becomes difficult for them to move, resulting in a very rough and heavy trigger. There is also possibly debris and grit in there further jamming things up. Making matters worse, when you install the tigger housing into the receiver, it squeezes the sides of the housing together, putting even more pressure on the sears and levers.
Since my Sniper trigger was full of metal bits and shavings, and the sears were very tightly wedged to where they would stick and jam even after cleaning everything out, I pulled out the middle and lower sears which are joined by a spring and smoothed them quite a bit. I laid some 60 grit on a flat surface, and laid each sear flat on it, and proceeded to basically hand mill some surface off each side of the sears. Not a lot, just enough to produce a new even finish which I then polished the same way with 320 grit. After cleaning them off I gave the sides of the sears a very thin smear of moly and reinstalled them.
These are basically just cleanup procedures and do not affect the engagement of the tigger action. They only allow smoother surfaces for the trigger screws to ride on, and let the sears move more freely in the trigger housing.
#3. The spring that tensions the upper sear directly in front of the trigger is loaded by installation of the trigger and rides along the side of the housing. The portion of the spring which is pushed down by the trigger to produce load can slip past the trigger pivot point and wedge between the trigger and the housing. I gave mine a slight inward bend on the end where it juts out into the housing so it is more centered beneath the trigger tab and can no longer slip between the trigger and housing.
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ill most likly send it out in a month or 2. might try what you did though. thanks now I just have to figure out how to get teh dang stock off.
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mine wont work with the headless screws any more, ill get it to work for 1 shot then the next it will cokc but wont fire with the trigger. had to install the normal screw again and it now works, but the trigger is bad, way to heavy and not smooth feeling. If I knew these guns trigger were so poor I would have just save up more money and bought something different
Did you grind the screw tips into the OEM cone shape & polish smooth? I did this with mine, and the trigger is wonderful. But I used Stainless Steel screws from ACE Hardware - not sure if it makes a difference, but it shouldn't.