GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Guns And Related Accessories Review Gates => Air Gun Review Gate => Topic started by: Paul68 on April 05, 2012, 09:31:01 PM
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Well, it arrived. I'm a magnet for Murphy's law.
I ordered the standard stock version. I recieved the thumbhole stock. Jao with American Arms called about 1 minute after I recieved it to speak with me about the gun. Apparently he did not recieve the standard stock models, and knowing folks were going nuts waiting, decided to send me a Thumbhole version in the hopes it would be acceptable. A couple things here before I go on about the gun, and go on I will.....
Although I did not feel good about purchasing an item that was not in stock under the impression that it was, Jao has put a lot of effort into appeasing disappointed customers. He is very concerned about the recent problems with these deliveries and is clearly putting a lot of effort into handling it. He is to be commended and IMO, this episode should not set a bad precedent for anyones first impression of him or his business. He deserves our continued business unless or until more problems arise. I think the guy is doing his best and is simply getting caught by some bad timing. He certainly cares, and doing business with him is a pleasure.
Next, I do not like synthetic stocks. I like the thumbholes stocks even less. However, given Jao's sincere effort and hard work, I am willing to give it a chance. I had already planned on altering or replacing the standard synthetic stock, so I may just end with fewer options and going with a switch to wood. Given that the stock is an unexpected curve, I'll say little beyond mentioning its overall quality.
I am not mounting the scope until this gun has had 100 or so shots through it to calm it down, but initial impressions of the scope are that it closely matches the basic Centerpoint that comes with many low dollar Crosman guns. Very clear, decent crosshair size, and very basic.
All that said, the following is my honest first impressions with a couple pics thrown in.
I am seriously underwhelmed. I feel like the kid expecting a pony who got a pogo stick with a plastic horse head on it at Christmas....
The gun LOOKS big. However, it really isn't such a monster. At first I thought it was huge, but a second look, then putting it next to my Beeman 1051, revealed it's maybe 1- 1/2 - 2 inches longer, and that's about it. It's long and thin, but not huge.
The rifle comes sealed in plastic, which is good and should be standard practice for AG manufacturers. Upon removing the plastic, I was greeted with a refugee from the Gulf Oil Spill. This thing, like most others I have read about, was literally dripping with oil. First order of business was to get a few pics of it straight from the box so others could see what to expect.
After the pics, I cleaned the rifle down and began inspection.
Besides the oil, there is a huge mess of red grease on the barrel lockup system. Far too much. Far more than would ever be needed during the rifles lifetime. This too was cleaned up.
First look impression
All of the plastic on this gun just plain looks cheap. The parting lines are pronounced, and like others there is a lot of casting flash. You will not mistake this for a high dollar rifle. The soft rubber butt pad helps and looks like it is in the wrong company with the stock. The stock does not feel sturdy, and I have to question the durability of the very thin bridge of stock material that makes up the top of the thumbhole. The lower portion of the grip is thin enough to allow easy manipulation of the trigger, but it is the only substantial portion of material connecting the front half of the stock to the rear, and appears too thin to handle the stress of cocking this gun for long. Most of the lines are straight and clean, but the cheek rest has several wobbles in the lines, and the edges along the cocking slot are too sharp to allow a comfortable rest for your palm.
The metal, well, it did not redeem the plastic.
At first glance, the bluing is very dark and deep. Once the oil is removed, it quickly became clear that this metal was not prepped well before bluing. There is uneveness in the bluing, two outright glaring blemishes that are clearly the result of contaminants during the bluing process, and while the reciever bluing is borderline adequate, the barrel finish and bluing is poor. Running a finger along the barrel will quickly bring to mind a fine wood file, and pressing against it with a fingernail and scraping down its length actually removed material from my fingernail. Where the barrel meets the pivot block is a light ring where little bluing took place, making it look like the barrel is not fully inserted into the block. They blued this gun heavily, they just skimped on the prepwork, and it shows.
The muzzle break is best described as cheap looking. It's plastic, looks like it, and has little pieces of casting flash hanging from the business end. It is does not provide a comfortable grip when cocking, and simply seems too bulky and unwieldy on an already large gun.
The sights in my opinion are worthless. Design wise they are no worse than most. However, this gun's length comes from its very long reciever. With the rear sight mounted to the pivot block, it makes for a difficult to use arrangement. I found myself trying to "hunch up" on the reciever to get my eye as close to the rear sight as possible. It seems as though you are looking down a tunnel when trying to sight your target. This is definitely a gun that requires a scope. Thus, I am ignoring the sights and they will soon wind up in the extra parts bins.
Now for the mechanicals.
After cleaning everything, I decided I would forego tearing this down out of the box and lubing it, and go ahead and shoot it because I am honestly not sure if I will keep it.
Much ado has been made about the effort to cock these guns. Now that I have had the opportunity, I have to say that IMO this is overstated. While the cocking effort was heavy, it was far from difficult, and I did 25 quick shots cocking the gun with one hand without any discomfort. It is a heavy pull, in the neighborhood of 45-50lbs, so paying attention when cocking is a good idea. If it gets loose, something WILL get broken and hopefully not anything important. This is extra true when trying this gun for the first time. Remember all that oil mentioned earlier? Get ALL of it or you could wind up with a barrel getting loose during cocking.
The cocking action sounded like a wounded goose. The spring was noisy and I could easily hear the coils compressing. The first thing that came to mind during cocking and listening is that this thing is bone dry inside. No way of knowing without opening it, which I won't do until I know what I am going to do with it. The pivot is very very tight and grinds, and the locking system very heavy. You have to beat this gun like a rowdy drunk to open and close it. It does feel like it will smooth out with time and use though.
Shooting and Action
Pulling it to my shoulder was a pleasant surprise in that the thumbhole stock provides a nice shooting hold. The rifle felt good in the hand and fit to the shoulder well without any needed contortions of my elbows or wrists or unatural feelings. Sadly, the long cocking slot and sharp edges along it still made hefting the gun uncomfortable. Resting the stock on the palm instantly distracts you as you cannot help but notice acutely how uncomfortable it is. It digs into the palm, and the slot is so wide that it almost feels like your hand is going to be swallowed by it. No, I am not a little guy, but 6' and 195lbs.
The length of the reciever puts the barrel a long ways from the action, and it feels like it. The gun is barrel heavy and finding the center of balance is difficult.
The trigger was not impressive. It feels good initially, and I like the geometry. However, it has rough movement and is in need of a good smoothing. There is a lot of side to side play as well and the pull length is moderately long. Trigger pull is average, and I would guess it around 5-6 lbs. I have yet to adjust it.
Firing the gun was disconcerting to say the least. This gun DEFINES the term "spring twang". The spring made so much noise, I at first thought it broke on the first shot. The cycle is extremely harsh, noisy, and SLOW. I could not believe how slow this things action was to get things moving. There is tons of recoil, and the gun jumps and twists bigtime when firing. Basically, it is loud, slow, and violent. I got the feeling of a lot of power wanting to get loose, but not having any idea where it was supposed to go. Shooting went something like this....
Sight in, give slight pull on trigger, check target and sighting, sharp pull on trigger...... TWAAANNNNGGGG!!!!SHLLLLLLUUTHUNNNNKKK!!!!
Since this gun is supposed to be all about power, I used my 55 gallon drum fire barrel as the target. Here is where disappointment REALLY set in. At this point I am glad I dont have a chrony, because I would likely already be boxing it back up.
On this fire barrel, my 1051 beeman with a tune and stock parts will put deep dents and punch occassional holes.
The hits from the 125 using the same CPHP's as the Beeman netted slightly less deep dents, with none penetrating all the way through. Granted the gun is not broken it, but not impressive.
Accuracy was actually decent, with 2 inch groups at 20 yrds using the open sights.
If ever a gun needed tuning, this is it.
I'll have better pictures and some accuracy testing once I get more time to work with this gun. This review is born of all of a bout 2 hours working with the gun and some quick shots with my phone cam, which isn't nearly enough time to do ANY gun justice. I will say, first impressions are usually lasting impressions, and I hope this one decides it want's to show another side of itself with more use.
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Sounds like the plastic Hatsan "Magnum" something I shot last year, it shot like a rabid dog too. I can see in the wood 95's and shark fin plastic AT44's I have the same manufacture characteristics, but they where nothing like that rifle's shot cycle. I think I will stay away from Hatsan's "magnum" spring powerplants for now.
Mark
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hmmm. Getting worried now. really hope mine doesnt have alot of problems. guess Ill find out tomorrow.
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Nice review and seems pretty close to my impressions with the exception of power. I chronyed mine after the 1st few shots and randomly checked it with 10 shot strings till I had about 400 pellets through it. 930's where pretty common with CPHP's but would see as low as 870 and as high as 950.
Now I know why the iron sights look so good to me, lol. With my glasses on I can't see up close very well. There far enough way I can see them clearly :).
The bluing on my receiver was great. Just the barrel sucked.
BTW, that stock scratches real easy too. Was wiping mine down today and found scratches I don't even know where came from.
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I know with my 125TH .22 The Spring was loud and the recoil was harsh. Breaking the barrel DOES smooth out really fast though as well as the loud twang of the spring. Mine is much more tame now that I've run over 200 25.54 grain JSB Jumbo Monsters through it. I think they ship the guns with an extremely stiff spring that really just needs to be broken in. Even the recoil seems to be settling down a little on my 125th. Power with my gun is not a disapointment. I had 3/4 inch ply wood penetration at a little over 10 yards which I think is plenty powerful for an airgun, a springer especially considering my Storm XT at that range could only manage to put the pellets in the board with the skirts sticking out. I have noticed that the seem of the stock is slightly uneven at certain points but really is so miniscule, at least for me, that I don't even notice it. I think the gun looks Bad ***, cheap........ somewhat, IMO not really. The muzzle brake I think looks better than most guns I've seen with them for the price and it actually has truglo sights unlike a lot of guns with muzzle brakes. I personally love using open sights and the sights on the 125th IMO kick ***. Alot better than my friend's Beeman RS2's sights, the front sight is rotated to the left on the end of the barrel, as well as the rear sight blade gets pulled forward and back depending which way you turn the windage dial, talk about cheap. I don't know, personally I'm impressed with the 125th mostly because its so dead on accurate. With my gun I've been able to just slowly drop the reticle on my target and pull the trigger with out having to really worry too much about follow through. The pellet goes where the reticle is pointed when you pull the trigger, assuming your scope isn't junk and you got it sighted in.
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do you guys think its safe to shoot crosman CHP 14.3gr out of them?
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Nice detailed review Paul.. I'm sorry it was not up to your expectations. Like you I am not a fan of thumhole stocks, I don't like them at all and would not have one. I also prefer wood to plastic but thats personal choice. I'm very surprised that your gun didn't punch holes in that 55 gal drum, seeing how that gun is touted as a magnum you think it would blow holes in it.
You're the second person who mentioned the oozing of oil all over right out of the plastic bag, and I guess I got a real cream puff when I got my 135, I had no ooze of oil whatever anywhere, and my bluing is amazingly beautiful, and dark, and even with not a single blemish anywhere. I did however have the glob of red grease on the pivot mechanism that you mentioned.
The strange spring noises when you cocked your gun and the twangy spring sounds when you shot it are also absent in my 135, I was expecting you to say that thing unleashed a bone chilling "crack" when it went off like that of a .22 magnum rimfire and not just a "twang" sound. How does your Beeman sound when you shoot it? Does it have a more pop like sound?
The 125 is a nice looking gun from the photos I have seen, but I think had I experienced the disappointments with it as you have done, I would have boxed it up and sent it back asap, I wouldnt have bothered to even clean it up or shoot it.
Maybe Jao thought you would like that type of gun, but I think he should have notified you before you got it that they were thumbhole stocks and not in wood. Could have saved you some disapointment.
Hope it works out ..
Nick,
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Hi Paul, Please be sure to continue on and let us know what ever you decide to do .
Now I was promised a sniper .22 in camo -standard stock. and It sure would be nice to actually get what I wanted and talked over the phone with Joao.
Before this review was written of Paul's, I seriously had doubts that when my delivery comes next week, that it would be what I expected, I call that my spider senses lol, it was the reason I called when i thought my purchase was wrong to begin with, and I was right it was wrong, but joao corrected the order.
That remains to be seen, If i am wrong then i will be the more happier to get what I specifically asked for, if i am right then I will have to see if I am willing to keep it.
I can almost understand Joao from American Arms predicament, I fully believe he is doing all he can and trying his best, I felt that impression when we talked on the phone, he fixed my order from a black sniper to a camo sniper, regular stock mind you, and gave me a deal because I felt the website was confusing, I appreciated that very much
I would say to joao about shipping a different item under any circumstance with good will intentions is not, repeat not good . I don't know anything about Joao, what his back ground is, or anything, but here in the usa a buyer would rather have 110 percent honesty and be told straight out "Sir we are sorry" but we were not able to ship your order, apparently we did not receive what we were expecting. and so on along those lines.
Honesty is the best policy, I can understand joao attempt to hopefully keep a customer happy with a delivery of something, but that basically my friend is only a double disappointment, a double disappointment. "we don't do things like that, it is not the way to do business,no matter how the good the intent may of been.
A business transactions, is a action of good faith, a customer is believing that the company is true to there word and there product.
A company who deals with other company's Believes they will receive what they ordered
You as a company would not like it, if they shipped your company a bunch of other items in there product line hoping you will be happy with that instead of what you ordered.
That's type of business dealing looks like the old bait and switch routine and no one likes it.
I hope in the future,American arms, would just be honest , and straight forward with your customers ,they will know you are sincere, and they may just go ahead and purchase another item before a refund is giving. that is the correct way the best way.
Also No one liked the
Available now!!
Due the high demand and limited supplies we are accepting orders now.
That my friend is another bad decision and a deception to your customers making us think the item is available now hurry while the supply's last
Is it a ethic situation where one see things a little differently then how a usa person would think ? i don't know, but somethings wrong there, just fix it, I sincerly apoligise if that sounded bad.
I want to say thank you for trying my friend, I am pulling for you, and your company and i truly wish you the best.
I hope to keep buying from American Arms, hey give us the truth and a good straight deal that's all any one wants, that's all anyone can ask for! Right? am i right? you bet.
Now about the hatsan rifles.
A explanation for over saturated oiled rifles, would be some one on the product line is purposefully messing things up/ and if not then some one is not over seeing there production line
that's a issue between management and its workers we know its a family run business but we also know it only takes one disgruntle employee.[/b][/size]
I see issue here with hatsan rifles at least with this model, it does not make sense but it is what it is , I certainly do not understand any product designed, then manufactured then tested then approved with out resolving some appearance issues.
Hatsan company has the biggest opportunity to of taken the air gun industry by storm in my honest opinion,and yet they have created there own problems by not being on top of the product they set out to sell so that's in itself is mind boggling
Because we all know that hatsan arms came about to create a company with better design, better product line, with many innovative designs to choose from.
the bluing issue was not the case with my model 95
I am honestly pulling for hatsan arms, they better get on the ball and straighten out the reason the bluing processed failed, no matter what the reason fix the problem, and don't allow or let it happen again.
Some one was not doing there job, you can bet they never intended that to happen but obviously it did!
We talked about diamonds in the ruff with other rifles as air gunners do, and I firmly believe no matter how you see it, that the hatsan magnums with a little tlc can be made into a rifle you would never want to be with out.
some complain about the trigger, when with a little adjusting and longer screws you would think you were dreaming how sweet it fired, some complain about the wiggle, when all it is is a different design, it floats sort of it is a trigger that's like magic waiting to happen.
I say those who have eyes to see, are able to see, those who don't have eyes to see, don't realize what they have.
Hatsan magnums are not a diamond in the rough, they are above that! a little tweaking, and a standard tune and you are there my friend
Hope they fix the synthetic stock issue with sharp lines I hope they get back on track with the bluing issue.
I know I for one will be buying and thoroughly enjoying my hatsan air rifles
Folks no harm intended, and no foul ,lets continue to be a family, lets try to look over our faults and strive, to be honest with each other, and try to be committed to our members as well as our air rifle company's we buy from, I am pretty sure American arms desires to do right by its customers
I am Mike e and I approve this message! now smile ;)
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The shot cycle you described sounds just like my WFH.
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do you guys think its safe to shoot crosman CHP 14.3gr out of them?
No Problem. I started using 18 some odd grain jsb exact jumbo heavies and they shoot great. less than a quarter of a second between pulling the trigger and impact at 30yards. CORRECTION! I finally was able to measure my shooting range out back and that 30 yards turned out to be 50+ yards. Also the 18.13 grain JSB's chronied an average of 833 fps with 29 fpe muzzle energy.
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Great review Paul, thanks.
For a some counterpoints on the Hatsan 125TH in .25 cal., check out my two reviews in the Turhish Gate... Part I and Part II. Aesthetics aside, mine has been nothing short of amazing after just 70 shots through it.
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Nice detailed review Paul.. I'm sorry it was not up to your expectations. Like you I am not a fan of thumhole stocks, I don't like them at all and would not have one. I also prefer wood to plastic but thats personal choice. I'm very surprised that your gun didn't punch holes in that 55 gal drum, seeing how that gun is touted as a magnum you think it would blow holes in it.
You're the second person who mentioned the oozing of oil all over right out of the plastic bag, and I guess I got a real cream puff when I got my 135, I had no ooze of oil whatever anywhere, and my bluing is amazingly beautiful, and dark, and even with not a single blemish anywhere. I did however have the glob of red grease on the pivot mechanism that you mentioned.
The strange spring noises when you cocked your gun and the twangy spring sounds when you shot it are also absent in my 135, I was expecting you to say that thing unleashed a bone chilling "crack" when it went off like that of a .22 magnum rimfire and not just a "twang" sound. How does your Beeman sound when you shoot it? Does it have a more pop like sound?
The 125 is a nice looking gun from the photos I have seen, but I think had I experienced the disappointments with it as you have done, I would have boxed it up and sent it back asap, I wouldnt have bothered to even clean it up or shoot it.
Maybe Jao thought you would like that type of gun, but I think he should have notified you before you got it that they were thumbhole stocks and not in wood. Could have saved you some disapointment.
Hope it works out ..
Nick,
Thanks for the replies folks. While this may sound like a harsh review, I am striving to give a true to life, blow by blow account of my experience and nothing more. I try to make clear what is opinion and preference, and what is just plain reality with this particular gun. Believe me, I was thinking quite a bit about all the glowing reviews while inspecting this thing and wonder if I got a lemon, or if I just need to put more pellets through.
Nick...
I too was expecting a first shot detonation, and this is the first new rifle that didn't produce one. This in conjunction with the noisy action strongly suggests there is very little internal lube. My Beeman, Storm, and Ruger all produced detonation on the first shot. All were twangy, but nothing like this, and now are very smooth and powerful shooters after tuning.
I don't know what it is about thumbhole stocks. They give me visions of some guy in sandals and a turban running around screaming (yeeyeeyeeyeeyeeyee!!!!) and firing shots into the air every time I see one lol. I don't even like synthetic, but was planning on some finish and coloration mods that would have hopefully made it more aesthetically pleasing, and if that didn't work, just put it into wood. I have to admit, if it were not for the large and uncomfortable shelf produced by the cocking slot, this thumbhole stock would PERFORM quite well for me. I just think it's butt ugly is all. ;D That and it could use a little better finishing.
Regarding Jao, I get the impression of someone trying desperately to make the best of a bad situation. Between Hatsan, his shipping company, and the out of the ordinary high demand for these rifles, I think he probably feels like he's stepped in a yellow jackets nest. I agree about being notified prior to shipping an "equivelent" product. However, it is not all that unusual for companies to do what he did, and many state outright they reserve the right to do so. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.
In this case, I already knew I would not be a fan of the stock, so dealing with a thumbhole just isn't a deal breaker for me. In all honesty, had I been notified that my exact order would not be available for another couple weeks, I would have refunded and just got my Mach 12.5 like I originally planned.
This gun obviously has a ton of power trying to bust loose. If it can produce the accuracy, or at least show the potential, I'll keep it and work it into something sweet. Alas, it is pouring rain today, so I may have to wait to find out.
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Yes, Thats why I been holding back on buying one.Waiting for all the reviews to start coming in.Nothing worse than buying a NEW gun thats not up to pare and have to rebuild it or send it back.
Sounds like the plastic Hatsan "Magnum" something I shot last year, it shot like a rabid dog too. I can see in the wood 95's and shark fin plastic AT44's I have the same manufacture characteristics, but they where nothing like that rifle's shot cycle. I think I will stay away from Hatsan's "magnum" spring powerplants for now.
Mark
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Just a quick update because I got a little bit of the warm fuzzies (finally)
After about 60 shots, the cycle has smoothed a little bit. Still very twangy, but speeding up and losing much of the twist. Still needs to be beaten into submission when cocking.
The real news is, whatever else this thing might be, it is ACCURATE. Mounted the scope. Sighting in at ten yards after a good barrel cleaning took about 10 minutes. Started out very low.
Once trailed to center, it began one holing, consistently with 18 gr Kodiaks.
Moved out to twenty yards, 3/4" groups.
This is from a kneeling position resting my hand on the back of a chair. This is promising enough to break out the bench.
It is also now at 20 yrds consistently putting severe dents with splitting in the 55 gal barrel, with some full penetrations.
More to come. Same Bat Time, same Bat Channel ;D
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glad to hear its starting to show good results.
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Well That is excellent news the hatsan we have herd so many rave about, showing what its made of.
You see they have designed a good powerful air rifle and like any rifle, it needs its break in period.
I'll shoot a new rifle just enough to know it works then
I tear mine down and have a look over the internals then do the typical all points tune
then I will go about breaking it in.
I do that because I can, I enjoy it, and knowing what it looks like under the hood.
usually I will pre order a jm seal for a rifle i ordered.
I want to order another Hatsan the 85X sniper in camo .22 that will have to be a special order, providing the price is good, I have the beeman ram which is cool too, that would keep me satisfied if the 85 x sniper .22 is not priced right.
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Well That is excellent news the hatsan we have herd so many rave about, showing what its made of.
You see they have designed a good powerful air rifle and like any rifle, it needs its break in period.
I'll shoot a new rifle just enough to know it works then
I tear mine down and have a look over the internals then do the typical all points tune
then I will go about breaking it in.
I do that because I can, I enjoy it, and knowing what it looks like under the hood.
usually I will pre order a jm seal for my rifle i ordered, but this time I am waiting because after my deliver comes, i may try to place a order in for a model no one stocks
I can wait then order two jm seals
For my 95, I turned the JM seal ID's to match the Hatsan seal rather than modify the Hatsan piston to the JM seal. Half of one, a dozen of the other though in general I prefer to keep as close to stock as possible. If nothing else the poor sap that inherits the rifle when I go &*%^& up will not have as much trouble keeping it working with it that way.
Mark
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Hi Mark.
I wound up modding the piston seals button on my mod 95, I would of loved to be able to mod just the seal. I wonder why gene did not do the same as you.
you have a metal lathe mark?
Man If my father law was still alive he probably would of taught me how to use his metal lathes and probably would of given it to me when he got older, his at home work shop had everything including a rolling cutting torch lol he was a great man built his home and his fathers too by him self mind you they don't make people like that anymore wheww
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Hi Mark.
I wound up modding the piston seals button on my mod 95, I would of loved to be able to mod just the seal. I wonder why gene did not do the same as you.
you have a metal lathe mark?
Man If my father law was still alive he probably would of taught me how to use his metal lathes and probably would of given it to me when he got older, his at home work shop had everything including a rolling cutting torch lol he was a great man built his home and his fathers too by him self mind you they don't make people like that anymore wheww
A couple, I like to keep my hand in machining though its been 20+ years since I made my living in it.
https://picasaweb.google.com/105582855711747336970/Hatsan95GasSpring3182012?authkey=Gv1sRgCP28oZ_h8e2jpAE#5723917345055073490
Air rifles are a great hobbiest way to get into machining, if you watch craigs list you can often find a decent small lathe close at hand. Be warned though the tooling will quickly add up to as much or more than the original machine over time.
Mark
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Hi Mark.
I wound up modding the piston seals button on my mod 95, I would of loved to be able to mod just the seal. I wonder why gene did not do the same as you.
you have a metal lathe mark?
Man If my father law was still alive he probably would of taught me how to use his metal lathes and probably would of given it to me when he got older, his at home work shop had everything including a rolling cutting torch lol he was a great man built his home and his fathers too by him self mind you they don't make people like that anymore wheww
A couple, I like to keep my hand in machining though its been 20+ years since I made my living in it.
https://picasaweb.google.com/105582855711747336970/Hatsan95GasSpring3182012?authkey=Gv1sRgCP28oZ_h8e2jpAE#5723917345055073490
Air rifles are a great hobbiest way to get into machining, if you watch craigs list you can often find a decent small lathe close at hand. Be warned though the tooling will quickly add up to as much or more than the original machine over time.
Mark
Just looking at that lathe gets my heart pumping it should of been part of my arsenal of tools in my life, I am 55 now and don't see the need to buy one, because I don't see where i would get the knolage to really know what i can do with one. but man, believe me its in my bones mark.
I been a commercial , industrial and residential plumber for over 33 yrs, I know hand tools. I am home with most tools, form cut off gas powerd saws to cuting torches, to lifts to jack hammers to core drills you name it.lol
but the cool metal lathe aww i missed the boat / but its ok I enjoy seeing others do there thing with there lathes, i don't know the 1st thing about them, sadly i never had opportunity to be around them.
if money was not a issue, i may of looked into buying one, but now days I am spending smart.
The air rifle hobby i love, the tuning the whole bit/ yeah give people a chance to tinker love it.
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First round of accuracy testing was more about me figuring out how to shoot this rifle. It is very hold sensitive, and any change in hold produces a very noticable change in accuracy. Big part of the problem for me is the thumbhole stock. I noted that with this type of stock I apparently tend to pull the back end of the rifle down when shouldering it, rather than straight back into my shoulder. Once I figured that out, things improved a bit. However, I am still nailing down just how to hold it for consistent results.
That said, here are some preliminary target results at 25 yrds.
The center is me deciding which hold to go with. The corners are the attempts at grouping.
As the gun loosens up with 200 shots through it, it seems to like the heavier Barracudas more than the Kodiaks. Best group was the 21 gr Barracudas with 18 gr Kodiaks in second, and the lighter 14+ grain FTS Copper's and Crosman premiers not doing well at all.
I am fairly confident that with more time and more loosening, this gun will improve. Given that, I will be tuning it in the next week or so to smooth it out as much as possible. Guess this means I am keeping it.
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are you going to install the two front trigger screws
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are you going to install the two front trigger screws
No. The trigger is not bad, only in need of smoothing and perhaps some removal of the side to side play. Otherwise it is already a good design in and of itself. The travel is nowhere near as bad as my Crosman trigger, and on par with the Ruger Airhawk trigger before it was cleaned up. I think with some polishing and shimming it will likely be the best mechanical feature on the gun.
Besides the Gas Spring I'll install ;D
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are you going to install the two front trigger screws
No. The trigger is not bad, only in need of smoothing and perhaps some removal of the side to side play. Otherwise it is already a good design in and of itself. The travel is nowhere near as bad as my Crosman trigger, and on par with the Ruger Airhawk trigger before it was cleaned up. I think with some polishing and shimming it will likely be the best mechanical feature on the gun.
Besides the Gas Spring I'll install ;D
hhmmm that's a shame sawtooth just put the new screws in, I gave him the info on what to get and where and he is totally freaked out how good it is now and is very happy / he added a post some where on his experience with it.
magnum116 told me about them initially, then i did it, so far i shared the info to a handful of gta members so i suspect they will come back feeling the same as sawtooth
the wiggle did not bother anything i liked it. feels like a suspended sweet trigger
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Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I chronographed my Hatsan 125th .22 and with my 18.13 grain JSB pellets I got an average of 833 fps with no more than a difference of 6 fps per shot. One thing I would like to advise you all of, is that the 25.54 grain JSB Monsters only shot an average of 558 fps so I would not recommend shooting pellets with a weight above 20 grains out of the .22 125 Hatsan models.
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Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I chronographed my Hatsan 125th .22 and with my 18.13 grain JSB pellets I got an average of 833 fps with no more than a difference of 6 fps per shot. One thing I would like to advise you all of, is that the 25.54 grain JSB Monsters only shot an average of 558 fps so I would not recommend shooting pellets with a weight above 20 grains out of the .22 125 Hatsan models.
Thats a little lower than I would have expected, did you have any 14.3g's to try? My 95 .22 did the advertised 800fps with the 14.3's but my .177 95 only did 900fps with the 7.9g. Sure enough when I opened it up it had a seal eating defect.
If it will not reach near the advertised FPS with the factory tested weight pellet, you may want to contact Hatsan USA. Do not open a Hatsan air rifle yourself though without knowing you have no factory part support nor warranty afterward. They do indicate so far they intend to aggressively replace warranty issues.
Mark
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Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I chronographed my Hatsan 125th .22 and with my 18.13 grain JSB pellets I got an average of 833 fps with no more than a difference of 6 fps per shot. One thing I would like to advise you all of, is that the 25.54 grain JSB Monsters only shot an average of 558 fps so I would not recommend shooting pellets with a weight above 20 grains out of the .22 125 Hatsan models.
Thats a little lower than I would have expected, did you have any 14.3g's to try? My 95 .22 did the advertised 800fps with the 14.3's but my .177 95 only did 900fps with the 7.9g. Sure enough when I opened it up it had a seal eating defect.
If it will not reach near the advertised FPS with the factory tested weight pellet, you may want to contact Hatsan USA. Do not open a Hatsan air rifle yourself though without knowing you have no factory part support nor warranty afterward. They do indicate so far they intend to aggressively replace warranty issues.
Mark
833 FPS with an 18.3 gr is a little lower than expected? That is 28 FPE in .22 with only 6 FPS of extreme spread. Not even the .25 125 will get 28 FPE with some pellets.
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Good point I was comparing it to my PCP's rather than springers in fps, in ftlbs it dosn't get much better with mortals cocking it
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Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I chronographed my Hatsan 125th .22 and with my 18.13 grain JSB pellets I got an average of 833 fps with no more than a difference of 6 fps per shot. One thing I would like to advise you all of, is that the 25.54 grain JSB Monsters only shot an average of 558 fps so I would not recommend shooting pellets with a weight above 20 grains out of the .22 125 Hatsan models.
I dont know if this is sound advice for the 125. My TH has been pushing the 19.91gr to an average of 848 fps with 2.44 standard deviation. The 25.39gr Kings, it has been pushing to an average of 760 fps with a standard deviation of also 2.44 fps. Even the 31gr Baracuda and Superdome are being pushed to 675 fps with 3 fps standard deviation.
Im not sure what this means persay, but the 125 I got is doing great with the heavier pellets. Of course this one is in .25, but I believe the guns are otherwise the same, no?
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[i]Here's Rick Ustlers review on the sniper 125 same rifle/ btw he loved the hatsan 125 sniper.25
I love watching this video because you can see how much rick is surprised by the awesome results, and how much he likes this rifle.
You know rick, he will not give you any fluff lol[/i]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EmsKDtCj2rk#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EmsKDtCj2rk#ws)
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Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I chronographed my Hatsan 125th .22 and with my 18.13 grain JSB pellets I got an average of 833 fps with no more than a difference of 6 fps per shot. One thing I would like to advise you all of, is that the 25.54 grain JSB Monsters only shot an average of 558 fps so I would not recommend shooting pellets with a weight above 20 grains out of the .22 125 Hatsan models.
I dont know if this is sound advice for the 125. My TH has been pushing the 19.91gr to an average of 848 fps with 2.44 standard deviation. The 25.39gr Kings, it has been pushing to an average of 760 fps with a standard deviation of also 2.44 fps. Even the 31gr Baracuda and Superdome are being pushed to 675 fps with 3 fps standard deviation.
Im not sure what this means persay, but the 125 I got is doing great with the heavier pellets. Of course this one is in .25, but I believe the guns are otherwise the same, no?
The smaller calibers have less pellet area for energy transfer, so the limit for weight is somewhat lower than with higher calibers, at least as I understand it.
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... and I was thinking his gun just didn't like that pellet. To go from 825 on a 20gr to 575 on a 25 gr is not typical. A few stairs were missed in that decent, lol.
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Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I chronographed my Hatsan 125th .22 and with my 18.13 grain JSB pellets I got an average of 833 fps with no more than a difference of 6 fps per shot. One thing I would like to advise you all of, is that the 25.54 grain JSB Monsters only shot an average of 558 fps so I would not recommend shooting pellets with a weight above 20 grains out of the .22 125 Hatsan models.
Thats a little lower than I would have expected, did you have any 14.3g's to try? My 95 .22 did the advertised 800fps with the 14.3's but my .177 95 only did 900fps with the 7.9g. Sure enough when I opened it up it had a seal eating defect.
If it will not reach near the advertised FPS with the factory tested weight pellet, you may want to contact Hatsan USA. Do not open a Hatsan air rifle yourself though without knowing you have no factory part support nor warranty afterward. They do indicate so far they intend to aggressively replace warranty issues.
Mark
I got some crosman premier hollow points on the way and I'll check those out. But I believe Hatsan tests their velocities with the RWS Hobby pellets and those only weigh 11.9 grains, so I am by no means dissapointed with the velocities I got with the 18.13 grain JSB's. I'll let you know how the 14.3 gr CPHP do with it though.
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Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I chronographed my Hatsan 125th .22 and with my 18.13 grain JSB pellets I got an average of 833 fps with no more than a difference of 6 fps per shot. One thing I would like to advise you all of, is that the 25.54 grain JSB Monsters only shot an average of 558 fps so I would not recommend shooting pellets with a weight above 20 grains out of the .22 125 Hatsan models.
I dont know if this is sound advice for the 125. My TH has been pushing the 19.91gr to an average of 848 fps with 2.44 standard deviation. The 25.39gr Kings, it has been pushing to an average of 760 fps with a standard deviation of also 2.44 fps. Even the 31gr Baracuda and Superdome are being pushed to 675 fps with 3 fps standard deviation.
Im not sure what this means persay, but the 125 I got is doing great with the heavier pellets. Of course this one is in .25, but I believe the guns are otherwise the same, no?
That's some serious power. I'm pretty sure that has something to do with it being in a .25, I'd have to do some homework to be sure though. So have you done any tuning with your 125th?
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No I just got it last week. My reviews - part I, II, and III are right below yours on this page. If you read them, it may answer some of your questions. If I can help, let me know. Steve
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**Update**
Well, my new seals for my Diana 48/52 and the 125 came in from J-M, so of course I blew off the rest of the nights work and had to tear down the 125 ;D
I've known something was wrong with this gun. The power was down, it was violent, it was noisy, and just all around did not feel like a well put together piece of machinery.
As the following pictures will show, there is indeed something wrong.
I am throwing this up for the moment as I honestly just feel the need to put it up here before continuning with the cleanup and tuning. Just on teardown, several things are immediately clear.
#1. There was a serious lack of QC when this rifle was assembled.
#2. There is no refinement in the powerplant. Everything is BIG, but that is where it ends. Everything has either a razor sharp edge, or is rough like 80 grit, machining marks abound, and it is full of gunk and grit. These internals look every bit as bad, if not worse than those of my WallyWorld Storm when I tore it down.
#3. Everything on this gun is overlubed, EXCEPT the powerplant, which is very dry except for dirty oil on the piston seal itself. The spring has the barest touch of oil and the guide is dry. Don't ask me how they did it. Somehow they managed to bathe this gun in oil, which was dripping out of the stock when I removed the action from it, and yet get almost none on the powerplant lol.
#4. The compression area within the reciever is scratched and gored by loose peices of metal. You can see what I am talking about when you view the pics. All those tiny dots in the pics on the piston and seal? That's metal and grit. I am seriously wondering if honing will be enough to clean it up it's that bad.
#5. The overlubing carried on to the trigger assembly. Just like with the barrel pivot, huge gobs of red grease all over the trigger assembly.
Now for the best part of this adventure......
The reciever plug holds everything in, and it is nothing but a piece of poorly cast plastic. It was jammed into the end of the receiver. How bad was it?
Well, when I took the pressure off with the spring compressor, once the press block came away from the action I thought the preload was off the spring. Haha! Surprise! No it wasn't!
The jammed in the end plastic block was so poorly finished and fitted, that it literally was hung up on the retaining pin holes. I had the whole thing out of the compressor and in my hands, and was about the pull on the plastic block to remove it from the reciever, when it occurred to me that it seemed like an awfully small amount of preload was taken off.
At this point, a bad feeling rose in my gut, and I immediately pointed the d*!# thing towards the open garage door. Pointing towards the yard, I lightly tapped the block with a screwdriver. The entire spring, guide, and plastic block shot 20 feet into the yard. Disaster averted, I began planning what I would write in a nastygram to be sent to Hatsan later this evening :-X
All joking aside, this guns internals are only what can honestly be called a huge and definite mess. As we all know, one bad instance doesn't a rule make. But, this makes the second documented instance of metal debris inside a Hatsan reciever on this forum, albeit this example is pretty extreme in comparison to Craymars. This level of assembly is no better, if not worse than what we have been seeing in the Chinese guns.
I AM NOT IMPRESSED.
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My 95 had no lube (like a Diana) and the end of the compression chamber had a bur that destroyed the original piston seal. Assembly was fine, no deburing however but the lube on the joints & trigger was fine.
Mark
No replacement parts, the ball for the safty was 3/16 .187 plastic and the spring from a pen cut to length would replace the one out in your yard somewhere...
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Seeing that makes me hesitant to buy a Hatsan
Nathan
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well, sounds like you got a $)((#. mines shooting great but I wonder what it looks like inside.
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Might just be an expensive piece of scrap.
Just got through honing the beegeezus out of the cylinder, and the damage to the walls is still visible. Probing with a pick showed the gouges are deep enough to catch on after honing.
One more pass, then it gets assembled and whatever happens, happens. Worst comes to worst, I'll have someone put it on a honing machined and have it refinished and trued.
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I guess yall know why I torn the 2nd one down without ever firing a shot. Why would a company go through the trouble of building a gun as nice looking and powerful as the 125 Sniper then allow the employee's to trash them by something as simple as not cleaning out all the metal shavings.
Can't figure out if the burr found in the bottom end of some compression chambers around the outer edge is a piece of metal wedged down the side or slag from where the end cap was welding onto the chamber.
Hopefully Somehow this will get back to the Hatsan factory and be resolved.
They don't oil or grease the compression chamber and spring on purpose. Everyone has different ideals of lubing. I've had 4 hatsan's and they all Honked untill the seal broke in, except the last one, which I lightly lubed.
The end plug is very tight in the tube. Even after completely de-burring it will be a pressed in fit and you have to release the tenison on the spring compressor a little at a time and assisting the end cap to slip. You could sand it down, but I prefer to leave it a tight fit. The material it's made of seems plenty strong and it should dampen noise and vibration. I OK with that design.
i hope yours come out OK. The Hatsan seals are very tight in the tube and made of allot harder material than say an RWS seal. How are the JM seals compared to the Hatsan?
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The receiver is toast. After heavy honing, the pitting in the compression area is no smoother and still deep enough to hook a pick on. I'll be sending a letter to Hatsan detailing what I've found since this is obviously a manufacturing issue, but of course, since I voided the warranty I don't expect anything.
Live and learn.
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The receiver is toast. After heavy honing, the pitting in the compression area is no smoother and still deep enough to hook a pick on. I'll be sending a letter to Hatsan detailing what I've found since this is obviously a manufacturing issue, but of course, since I voided the warranty I don't expect anything.
Live and learn.
Paul since you went that far, lube it like you normally would with your tune, put it back together and see what you get/ let us know. after you shot 20 shots then start to crony and see how she feels etc etc and let us know what you come up with, hopefully the piston seal will fit properly
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The receiver is damaged Mike. I am not going to reassemble a receiver that will not seal properly, just so I can destroy a new JM seal and see what happens.
*Edit*
Sorry for the harsh reply. I'm just a bit annoyed. I've e-mailed Hatsan USA and outlined what I found and included pics. I'll wait to see what they say, then I'll maybe take it to the machine shop out here and have it properly honed. Of course, I may have to button the piston and get a larger seal.
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The receiver is damaged Mike. I am not going to reassemble a receiver that will not seal properly, just so I can destroy a new JM seal and see what happens.
*Edit*
Sorry for the harsh reply. I'm just a bit annoyed. I've e-mailed Hatsan USA and outlined what I found and included pics. I'll wait to see what they say, then I'll maybe take it to the machine shop out here and have it properly honed. Of course, I may have to button the piston and get a larger seal.
you basically will have a larger chamber with more volume after the shop you find, hones it down, magnum116 was going to do that to on of his rifle on purpose.
seals are pretty darn tough, with the smoothed over scratch you attempted to hone down , I don't know since molly would fill that area if it would hurt anything,
but never the less, getting that professionally honed will take care of it.
This is why I tear rifles down after I receive them I will shoot it 1x just to make sure it functions.
I think you mentioned you usually do that too.
you will be just fine once the receiver is honed from your local machine shop.
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The problem is that there is a deformed area on the seal that matches the location of the pitting in the tube. That tells me pressure was escaping and causing uneven seal lip loading, which would eventually destroy the seal, not to mention cause erratic pressures.
The real problem though is that with an oversized bore, it will not be easy to find a seal to fit unless I turn one myself, which I am not equipped to do properly. JM doesn't seem to be doing any custom work anymore.
If I'm lucky, Hatsan will step up and take care of this when and IF they reply to my e-mails. I've also notified JOAO, though I doubt there is much he could do about it, and I don't want him to eat the cost for something Hatsan wont take back.
If not, it'll get put on the back burner while I take care of other projects and get the custom sized seal issue dealt with.
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The problem is that there is a deformed area on the seal that matches the location of the pitting in the tube. That tells me pressure was escaping and causing uneven seal lip loading, which would eventually destroy the seal, not to mention cause erratic pressures.
The real problem though is that with an oversized bore, it will not be easy to find a seal to fit unless I turn one myself, which I am not equipped to do properly. JM doesn't seem to be doing any custom work anymore.
If I'm lucky, Hatsan will step up and take care of this when and IF they reply to my e-mails. I've also notified JOAO, though I doubt there is much he could do about it, and I don't want him to eat the cost for something Hatsan wont take back.
If not, it'll get put on the back burner while I take care of other projects and get the custom sized seal issue dealt with.
who's the member Johny Z maybe? that makes seals for like 15 shipped? contact him he will be able to get you what you need/ if its not him I bet he knows who it is that makes them.
I buy the rifle from you if you decide you don't want it
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Cranked up the tension on the hone to the max, and honed until I almost wore the stones out. Even then, still noticeable pitting, but at least my pick slid over it instead of catching on it. I have no doubt the cylinder is all kinds of out of round ??? Burnished it with moly and called it good enough.
Went ahead and finished the cleanup. Chucked the original cheesy little plastic washer in the piston into the trash and made a tophat from steel round. Cleaned up and polished the piston's machined edges, installed the JM seal. Squared and polished the spring ends. Cleaned up the spring guide and washers, gave everything a touch of moly. Did all the usual smoothing polishing and lubing.
The barrel pivot has two paper thin steel washers. Both were badly deformed and deeply gouged, which explains the flopping barrel. Smoothed em up and moly'd em till I can get replacements.
It cocks and shoots much more smoothly now. A great deal less twang, but still twangy. Still violent recoil, but with a giant piston and spring, that's expected. Only put about 10 shots through it, but it still seems anemic. At ten yards it put a deep dent in a folding steel chair no worse than my Beeman. Oh well. I'll have a chrony soon so I can really see what's going on with it, but it seems this one is destined for the dud heap.
Not a peep from Hatsan or JOAO in reply to my e-mails, so I guess that's that.
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I wrote both Hatsan USA & Turkey, the Turks simply forwarded my issue back to the USA support. This absurd no parts policy makes it hard to swallow. ^&$@_=s has made it the business model of supplying spare parts for container imported airguns from China. Crosman of course, if they have it you can get it. I can get anything but the serialized frame for my Ruger 10/22. You can assemble an AR or a 1911 again from parts, or a Harley without any factory parts whatsoever. Hatsan, it just isn't serious or solid and the impact not worthy IMHO. Unless they intend to do in house "tuning" they need to get an authorized after market service center not connected to their liability clause.
Mark
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"Hatsan, it just isn't serious or solid and the impact not worthy IMHO"
I have to agree with you. I've been reading a lot of stuff from 2008 to present regarding Hatsan, and it seems its the same thing all over again with Hatsan's US debut as it's been with the rest of the world for years now. They seem to be Crosman, but without any customer or product support.
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"It's been two days since I contacted Hatsan both here and through e-mail. In neither case have I received so much as a form letter thanking me for my contact, much less anyone paying attention to what I wished to speak about.
I am disappointed in first, the very poor quality of the Mod 125 I purchased which is basically a complete waste of my money, and now, the lack of any interest by the company to address issues or at the very least acknowledge a customers concerns.
To date, Hatsans' US debut is not impressive.
Paul Novak
pnovak2@************"
Sent the above to Hatsan USA.
I won't be dealing with anything Hatsan again until parts are readily available, and even then it will be under the understanding that I'll be basically rebuilding their products just as I would a Shanghai rifle.
**Edit**
I sincerely hope I spoke too soon and that I will have to eat my words. Nothing would make me happier.
Hatsan commented on a photo of the piston seal I left on their Facebook wall ;)
"Hatsan Arms Company Hi Paul, We are sorry about the problem you had. HatsanUSA will be contacting you soon and we will for sure have the issue fixed. Thanks"
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"Hatsan Arms Company Hi Paul, We are sorry about the problem you had. HatsanUSA will be contacting you soon and we will for sure have the issue fixed. Thanks"
Humm is the post still there? Perhaps I'm not looking at the "wall"
Mark
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All I ask is we give em a chance to handle it before we add any negative comments.
*edit**
Link apparently won't work. It should be to the right of their main page when you visit the Hatsan Facebook page. It'll be next to the picture of the guy with the giant pumpkin;)
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I'm still hopeful that Hatsan irons out these start up issues. The rush to fill the shipping containers and the resulting QC problems to meet the introduction and nonsensical parts position can be solved over time. What isn't so great is the guy with the bad compression tube, the cracked stock or required to spend the extra money to ship a rifle sold as affordable. I'm going to wait before buying another spring gun from them.
Mark
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Hatsan has contacted me and wants the rifle so they can inspect it and if they find a problem with assembly want to be able to address it. I'll be shipping it to them tomorrow, and hopefull all goes well.
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Keep us posted Paul. How many days was it before they finally responded to your email?
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Counting today almost 3. They're being generous but cautious. I have to pull my tophat out and reinstall the original seal, then I'll ship it to them.
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Counting today almost 3. They're being generous but cautious. I have to pull my tophat out and reinstall the original seal, then I'll ship it to them.
Good luck I hope they come thru for you.
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Hatsan has contacted me and wants the rifle so they can inspect it and if they find a problem with assembly want to be able to address it. I'll be shipping it to them tomorrow, and hopefull all goes well.
LOL, the big piece of steel imbedded in the piston wasn't enough proof there was an assembly problem.
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Hatsan has contacted me and wants the rifle so they can inspect it and if they find a problem with assembly want to be able to address it. I'll be shipping it to them tomorrow, and hopefull all goes well.
LOL, the big piece of steel imbedded in the piston wasn't enough proof there was an assembly problem.
Yeah, I'm still more than a little annoyed when I receieve....
"It appears that your observation may quite well be correct and that an
error may have been made in the assembly process."
But, it's a business, and caution is the name of the game. They ARE being generous, so we'll see how it goes.
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I hope they see the "error" in their ways and get it corrected soon. I what to buy the spring pistol when it comes out, but the chance of finding internal damage I can't fix makes me have second thoughts.
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Any update
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Naaa. Be at least a week before I know for sure what's up.
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i know this thread is over 2 years old ... but did hatsan ever make things right for you ? or did they leave you stuck with a factory screwup ?
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I had finally gotten another rifle. It too was loaded with metal shavings and gunk inside, and I ended up doing a full tune with some mods before doing anything with it. Eventually got it shooting well and sold it.
Edited to add that I actually went through two returns and three rifles before finally getting thing ironed out.
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sorry you had a bad experience with them , but thanks for sharing it .