GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Artemis/SPA Airguns => Topic started by: sticman77 on January 18, 2022, 11:17:20 AM
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regret not picking up one of the originals. looks like this one comes with a front retaining band similar to a crosman, and new pump system:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtvCB2CR3xo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtvCB2CR3xo)
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And pre-ordered :-[ ;D At lest they did not stick with Butterfly as the name, I bet this will appease the ones wanting a wood 362 ;)
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yeah wood stocked pumpers seem rare these days!
it also looks like they may have borrowed from the seneca aspen pump design, making it easier to get to higher pressure pumping!
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Well this New Dragonfly has almost all the features wanted for the classic pumper? Wood stock with medium height comb, easier pumping mechanism, multi-shot, a metal breech for mounting a scope too. If this is accurate it is the new king of multi-pump pnuematic air rifles. Here are the manufacturer spec. at airventuri dot com. Looks like the Crosman 362 needs some upgrades fast.
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Well this New Dragonfly has almost all the features wanted for the classic pumper? Wood stock with medium height comb, easier pumping mechanism, multi-shot, a metal breech for mounting a scope too. If this is accurate it is the new king of multi-pump pnuematic air rifles. Here are the manufacturer spec. at airventuri dot com. Looks like the Crosman 362 needs some upgrades fast.
That is true, but at twice the price of the C362!
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Well this New Dragonfly has almost all the features wanted for the classic pumper? Wood stock with medium height comb, easier pumping mechanism, multi-shot, a metal breech for mounting a scope too. If this is accurate it is the new king of multi-pump pnuematic air rifles. Here are the manufacturer spec. at airventuri dot com. Looks like the Crosman 362 needs some upgrades fast.
That is true, but at twice the price of the C362!
i see the 362 as one that people who like to tinker more will enjoy. upgrade to a steel breech, pay a crazy amount for the magazine breech if you want, order custom wood grips when available etc.
the dragonfly will be for people like me. i can fix things, but prefer to tinker with my pcps these days! and wood stock without paying crazy ebay prices for a 392p
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Interesting mechanism - seems like I have see a modified Benjamin (or other) rifle with similar operation.
Also interesting - in the video the audio informs us to cock the rifle prior to pumping and also engage the safely, but the video show the safety being disengaged. :o
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Interesting mechanism - seems like I have see a modified Benjamin (or other) rifle with similar operation.
Also interesting - in the video the audio informs us to cock the rifle prior to pumping and also engage the safely, but the video show the safety being disengaged. :o
do as they say, not as they do! lol with the whole seneca/air venturi partnership im guessing things get lost in translation from chinese to english and vice versa...
i also just saw these come with a threaded muzzle already... my pre order is also now in... been on a search for a wood pumper for a while
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whats really impressive is the fact that while weve seen these advanced( compound ) linkages for 10 yrs or more , seneca is actually making it
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whats really impressive is the fact that while weve seen these advanced( compound ) linkages for 10 yrs or more , seneca is actually making it
it feels like these days the copycat brands are releasing the innovations, even if they are innovations they copied from people on these forums.
seneca/aea making waves (more so aea) while crosman/airforce continue to re-use old technology and depend on the aftermarket stuff
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Interesting but In comparison with Crosman do you think they be continued with available parts years from now ?
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Interesting but In comparison with Crosman do you think they be continued with available parts years from now ?
I think this shares a lot with the storm rider and bandit series. So I imagine as long as they stay moderately popular like those rifles
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saw these come with a threaded muzzle already... ... been on a search for a wood pumper for a while
Cannot argue with either of these points.
Much prefer wood, but the market seems to demand synthetics and tactical appearances.
Threaded muzzles - the only acceptable way. But it appears the Dragonfly does not have a threaded barrel, but rather a long adapter.
Adapters and slip-on [sic] devices are not a very good compromise. I have two slip-on (really ram, jam, pound on) and will not have any more. I thread Crosman 7/16" barrels 3/8"-24tpi and make device endcaps to fit. The Crosman Maximus muzzle adapter makes an already long rifle even longer - and then the moderator ..... :o :o :o
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saw these come with a threaded muzzle already... ... been on a search for a wood pumper for a while
Cannot argue with either of these points.
Much prefer wood, but the market seems to demand synthetics and tactical appearances.
Threaded muzzles - the only acceptable way. But it appears the Dragonfly does not have a threaded barrel, but rather a long adapter.
Adapters ahreaded adand slip-on [sic] devices are not a very good compromise. I have two slip-on (really ram, jam, pound on) and will not have any more. I thread Crosman 7/16" barrels 3/8"-24tpi and make device endcaps to fit. The Crosman Maximus muzzle adapter makes an already long rifle even longer - and then the moderator ..... :o :o :o
It's a threaded adapter, not a slip on one. Barrel is threaded but because of the smaller diameter of the barrel, an adapter was required to achieve 1/2"x20 threads. The adapter is all metal.
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;D This is going to be a long hard wait, but the weather will be nicer when I get mine ;D
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Interesting but In comparison with Crosman do you think they be continued with available parts years from now ?
I think this shares a lot with the storm rider and bandit series. So I imagine as long as they stay moderately popular like those rifles
This, and the old DF, are basically Stormriders, or Trailscouts (SPA PR900 and CR600w respectively), with different tubes, valves, and a two piece wooden stock. The pumper tube looks like it incorporates a full contact barrel band, very much like the c362 in that regard. The barrel bands on CO2/HP SPA rifles and pistoles don't actually touch the barrel. I can easily slide out my 'Rider barrel even with two barrel bands tightly secured to the tube. I suspect the DF II is quite a bit stiffer with incorporating the barrel as a stressed member. Most likely the only real way to make more power will be to drill the ports, increase hammer weight, and/or a stiffer hammer spring. It looks like the barrel is also a tad longer, just like the old Dragonfly/LR700 which did not have threaded adapters and instead took an slide on with a grub screw, like Crosman. The G1 Stormrider barrels were the same way to incorporate a moderator with a sight post. I have an earlier .22 cal CP-1 barrel with slide on barrel weight/front sight that uses a grub screw.
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;D This is going to be a long hard wait, but the weather will be nicer when I get mine ;D
winter is when i play with louder pcp's in the basement. spring/summer/fall is when i'm outside with my springers and this summer a pumper :)
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Good looking rifle. The wood looks decent, and at 200 bucks, seems like a nice set up. The pump mechanism looks "busy", but if engineered right and built the same, I guess that would not propose any problems.
They rate it at 850 fps with lead pellets, but even with 15 pumps, I bet that number is probably closer to 800 fps.
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They rate it at 850 fps with lead pellets, but even with 15 pumps, I bet that number is probably closer to 800 fps.
That is in .177 caliber -- 730 in .22 caliber (same caveat as above).
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Those are real world numbers.
7 grain for .177 and 11.9 for .22 - RWS Hobby
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Tom Gaylord at PA is reviewing the Seneca Dragonfly II.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/)
Here's a couple of excerpts from that:
RWS 14 gr
Pumps
Velocity
3
518
8
611
15.
653
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy
First up are JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets. Weighing 18.13-grains these represent the heavy side of a good medium weight pellet. I will test them with 3 through 15 pumps.
Pumps
.Velocity
3
..428
4
..476
5
..518
6
..553
7
..564
8
..583
9
..589
10
602
11
601
12
617
13
605
14
617
15
618
--
Looks to me like the last 6-7 pumps are superfluous and the effective # of pumps for the 14 gr is 8 and the # of pumps for the 18.13 gr is 10.
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Those are great numbers! 8-10 pumps with equal pumping effort for each pump sounds like a great deal. I certainly want one.
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Those are great numbers! 8-10 pumps with equal pumping effort for each pump sounds like a great deal. I certainly want one.
I think I'll stick with my 362. The renamed Butterfly just isn't in the same league.
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Those are great numbers! 8-10 pumps with equal pumping effort for each pump sounds like a great deal. I certainly want one.
I think I'll stick with my 362. The renamed Butterfly just isn't in the same league.
That's cool, I didn't ask for your thoughts in regards to the 362. Since you brought it up I have to say that the DF MKII posts better numbers than the 362 I already own. The DF MKII will be easier to pump to any number of pumps, unlike the 362 which is a bear for pumps seven and eight. Nice German Beech stock, metal breech with dovetails, threaded muzzle, floating barrel, and an OEM moderator make it for a much better deal than a c362, to me anyway, since we are talking about opinions here.
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Those are great numbers! 8-10 pumps with equal pumping effort for each pump sounds like a great deal. I certainly want one.
I think I'll stick with my 362. The renamed Butterfly just isn't in the same league.
That's cool, I didn't ask for your thoughts in regards to the 362. Since you brought it up I have to say that the DF MKII posts better numbers than the 362 I already own. The DF MKII will be easier to pump to any number of pumps, unlike the 362 which is a bear for pumps seven and eight. Nice German Beech stock, metal breech with dovetails, threaded muzzle, floating barrel, and an OEM moderator make it for a much better deal than a c362, to me anyway, since we are talking about opinions here.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
Better numbers?
I plugged the 10 pump figure of the Butterfly ... er ah ... Dragonfly II, I mean...(heh),...using the 18.13's into my calculator and got 14.5 fpe.
From hardairmag:
The average across 5 shots was 14.6 Ft/Lbs (using Crosman 19 gr)
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/crosman-362-muzzle-energy-15-ft-lbs-for-a-99-gun/
362 gets slightly more fpe with a slightly heavier pellet at 8 pumps rather than 10. Less pumps, more power.
The 362 gets harder to pump at pumps 7 and 8? I hadn't noticed.
Yes sir, the butterfly does have its bells and whistles. I can't argue with that at all. It sure is a pretty rifle.
That isn't quite in the same league as the 362.
Gaylord at PA should have the accuracy part of his review of the butterfly out next week. PA is pushing the butterfly hard for potential buyers.
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Those are great numbers! 8-10 pumps with equal pumping effort for each pump sounds like a great deal. I certainly want one.
I think I'll stick with my 362. The renamed Butterfly just isn't in the same league.
That's cool, I didn't ask for your thoughts in regards to the 362. Since you brought it up I have to say that the DF MKII posts better numbers than the 362 I already own. The DF MKII will be easier to pump to any number of pumps, unlike the 362 which is a bear for pumps seven and eight. Nice German Beech stock, metal breech with dovetails, threaded muzzle, floating barrel, and an OEM moderator make it for a much better deal than a c362, to me anyway, since we are talking about opinions here.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
Better numbers?
I plugged the 10 pump figure of the Butterfly ... er ah ... Dragonfly II, I mean...(heh),...using the 18.13's into my calculator and got 14.5 fpe.
From hardairmag:
The average across 5 shots was 14.6 Ft/Lbs (using Crosman 19 gr)
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/crosman-362-muzzle-energy-15-ft-lbs-for-a-99-gun/
362 gets slightly more fpe with a slightly heavier pellet at 8 pumps rather than 10. Less pumps, more power.
The 362 gets harder to pump at pumps 7 and 8? I hadn't noticed.
Yes sir, the butterfly does have its bells and whistles. I can't argue with that at all. It sure is a pretty rifle.
That isn't quite in the same league as the 362.
Gaylord at PA should have the accuracy part of his review of the butterfly out next week. PA is pushing the butterfly hard for potential buyers.
My 362 does not produce 14+ FPE. Based on the numbers you posted they are in exactly the same league, except the 362 comes with a plastic breech like a toy. From your comments it sounds like you don't understand how the pumping mechanism works on the DF MKII. Each pump has the same resistance when pumping the DF MKII, and if you can't tell the difference between pump one and pump eight on a 362 you must be competing in strong man competitions.
Anyway, the only person with ruffled feathers is you, elsewise why insult an air rifle you don't even own? It's pretty childish if you ask me, and apparently you are.
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Those are great numbers! 8-10 pumps with equal pumping effort for each pump sounds like a great deal. I certainly want one.
I think I'll stick with my 362. The renamed Butterfly just isn't in the same league.
That's cool, I didn't ask for your thoughts in regards to the 362. Since you brought it up I have to say that the DF MKII posts better numbers than the 362 I already own. The DF MKII will be easier to pump to any number of pumps, unlike the 362 which is a bear for pumps seven and eight. Nice German Beech stock, metal breech with dovetails, threaded muzzle, floating barrel, and an OEM moderator make it for a much better deal than a c362, to me anyway, since we are talking about opinions here.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
Better numbers?
I plugged the 10 pump figure of the Butterfly ... er ah ... Dragonfly II, I mean...(heh),...using the 18.13's into my calculator and got 14.5 fpe.
From hardairmag:
The average across 5 shots was 14.6 Ft/Lbs (using Crosman 19 gr)
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/crosman-362-muzzle-energy-15-ft-lbs-for-a-99-gun/
362 gets slightly more fpe with a slightly heavier pellet at 8 pumps rather than 10. Less pumps, more power.
The 362 gets harder to pump at pumps 7 and 8? I hadn't noticed.
Yes sir, the butterfly does have its bells and whistles. I can't argue with that at all. It sure is a pretty rifle.
That isn't quite in the same league as the 362.
Gaylord at PA should have the accuracy part of his review of the butterfly out next week. PA is pushing the butterfly hard for potential buyers.
My 362 does not produce 14+ FPE. Based on the numbers you posted they are in exactly the same league, except the 362 comes with a plastic breech like a toy. From your comments it sounds like you don't understand how the pumping mechanism works on the DF MKII. Each pump has the same resistance when pumping the DF MKII, and if you can't tell the difference between pump one and pump eight on a 362 you must be competing in strong man competitions.
Anyway, the only person with ruffled feathers is you, elsewise why insult an air rifle you don't even own? It's pretty childish if you ask me, and apparently you are.
Your 362 doesn't produce 14.5 lbs? Sorry to hear that.
Are you using the 2240 steel breech OEM short probe?
It's my understanding the short probe while using the steel breech loses some fps.
It's also my understanding that not only hardairmag is getting higher numbers w/ theirs than you're getting and several 362 owners at GTA are reporting higher numbers too. Past 16 fpe for some folks.
Heck, even with 14 gr pellets the butterfly can only do 652 fps at 15 pumps and the 362 can do 700 fps at 10 pumps. That's good for 15.5 fpe from the 362.
But, your 362 is not able to do that? Hmmm,...maybe your 362 actually is in the same league as the butterfly. Thankfully, mine and others 362 is not.
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All depends on how deep the pumper addiction ;)
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Those are great numbers! 8-10 pumps with equal pumping effort for each pump sounds like a great deal. I certainly want one.
I think I'll stick with my 362. The renamed Butterfly just isn't in the same league.
That's cool, I didn't ask for your thoughts in regards to the 362. Since you brought it up I have to say that the DF MKII posts better numbers than the 362 I already own. The DF MKII will be easier to pump to any number of pumps, unlike the 362 which is a bear for pumps seven and eight. Nice German Beech stock, metal breech with dovetails, threaded muzzle, floating barrel, and an OEM moderator make it for a much better deal than a c362, to me anyway, since we are talking about opinions here.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
Better numbers?
I plugged the 10 pump figure of the Butterfly ... er ah ... Dragonfly II, I mean...(heh),...using the 18.13's into my calculator and got 14.5 fpe.
From hardairmag:
The average across 5 shots was 14.6 Ft/Lbs (using Crosman 19 gr)
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/crosman-362-muzzle-energy-15-ft-lbs-for-a-99-gun/
362 gets slightly more fpe with a slightly heavier pellet at 8 pumps rather than 10. Less pumps, more power.
The 362 gets harder to pump at pumps 7 and 8? I hadn't noticed.
Yes sir, the butterfly does have its bells and whistles. I can't argue with that at all. It sure is a pretty rifle.
That isn't quite in the same league as the 362.
Gaylord at PA should have the accuracy part of his review of the butterfly out next week. PA is pushing the butterfly hard for potential buyers.
My 362 does not produce 14+ FPE. Based on the numbers you posted they are in exactly the same league, except the 362 comes with a plastic breech like a toy. From your comments it sounds like you don't understand how the pumping mechanism works on the DF MKII. Each pump has the same resistance when pumping the DF MKII, and if you can't tell the difference between pump one and pump eight on a 362 you must be competing in strong man competitions.
Anyway, the only person with ruffled feathers is you, elsewise why insult an air rifle you don't even own? It's pretty childish if you ask me, and apparently you are.
Your 362 doesn't produce 14.5 lbs? Sorry to hear that.
Are you using the 2240 steel breech OEM short probe?
It's my understanding the short probe while using the steel breech loses some fps.
It's also my understanding that not only hardairmag is getting higher numbers w/ theirs than you're getting and several 362 owners at GTA are reporting higher numbers too. Past 16 fpe for some folks.
Heck, even with 14 gr pellets the butterfly can only do 652 fps at 15 pumps and the 362 can do 700 fps at 10 pumps. That's good for 15.5 fpe from the 362.
But, your 362 is not able to do that? Hmmm,...maybe your 362 actually is in the same league as the butterfly. Thankfully, mine and others 362 is not.
You're pretty funny. I take it you didn't even read the article. Mr. Gaylord is actually getting increasing velocities as he continues to test... Still, we are talking about a difference of 0.1 FPE with the same weight pellets, that would put them exactly in the same league. Of course the FPE is going to increase when going up to heavier pellets, this is a phenomenon found in many applications, just not the DF MKII, yet.
I've never seen someone so driven to insult things they don't even own. Not only are you slamming a product you've never even seen, but you are then going on to insult my rifle. I get it, you're just a bully and you don't have any other way of communicating. Apparently I'm not allowed to express my opinion about a rifle in a thread dedicated to that rifle, at least not without some bully coming around to tell me how he feels as well.
Your entitlement is astounding.
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You're pretty funny. I take it you didn't even read the article. Mr. Gaylord is actually getting increasing velocities as he continues to test... Still, we are talking about a difference of 0.1 FPE with the same weight pellets, that would put them exactly in the same league. Of course the FPE is going to increase when going up to heavier pellets, this is a phenomenon found in many applications, just not the DF MKII, yet.
I've never seen someone so driven to insult things they don't even own. Not only are you slamming a product you've never even seen, but you are then going on to insult my rifle. I get it, you're just a bully and you don't have any other way of communicating. Apparently I'm not allowed to express my opinion about a rifle in a thread dedicated to that rifle, at least not without some bully coming around to tell me how he feels as well.
Your entitlement is astounding.
And yet I've been posting excerpts from the article @
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/)
...to poke holes in your logic, left and right. Here ... I'll do it again:
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy
First up are JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets. Weighing 18.13-grains these represent the heavy side of a good medium weight pellet. I will test them with 3 through 15 pumps.
Pumps
.Velocity
3
..428
4
..476
5
..518
6
..553
7
..564
8
..583
9
..589
10
602
11
601
12
617
13
605
14
617
15
618
--
Yeah, WoW! Increasing velocities....of 16 fps for the last 5 pumps.
LOL
Want me to do it again? Check it out:
RWS Meisterklugeln
Since I now had a good handle on the pump limits, I tested the 14-grain RWS Meisterkugeln with 3, 8 and 15 pump strokes.
Pumps
Velocity
3
518
8
611
15.
653
--
WoW! Increasing velocities again of a whopping 42 fps for the last 7 pumps.
Astounding power! -sarc-
Heck, my flat topped legos are at least good for 10 fps per pump after the initial 10 pumps.
The overpriced and underpowered butterfly can't even manage that it seems.
Your rifle, you say? The same rifle that hasn't come out yet? The same rifle that won't be ready to be shipped until May? That rifle is yours?
How can it be yours when it doesn't actually exist? Until May.
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You're pretty funny. I take it you didn't even read the article. Mr. Gaylord is actually getting increasing velocities as he continues to test... Still, we are talking about a difference of 0.1 FPE with the same weight pellets, that would put them exactly in the same league. Of course the FPE is going to increase when going up to heavier pellets, this is a phenomenon found in many applications, just not the DF MKII, yet.
I've never seen someone so driven to insult things they don't even own. Not only are you slamming a product you've never even seen, but you are then going on to insult my rifle. I get it, you're just a bully and you don't have any other way of communicating. Apparently I'm not allowed to express my opinion about a rifle in a thread dedicated to that rifle, at least not without some bully coming around to tell me how he feels as well.
Your entitlement is astounding.
And yet I've been posting excerpts from the article @
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/)
...to poke holes in your logic, left and right. Here ... I'll do it again:
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy
First up are JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets. Weighing 18.13-grains these represent the heavy side of a good medium weight pellet. I will test them with 3 through 15 pumps.
Pumps
.Velocity
3
..428
4
..476
5
..518
6
..553
7
..564
8
..583
9
..589
10
602
11
601
12
617
13
605
14
617
15
618
--
Yeah, WoW! Increasing velocities....of 16 fps for the last 5 pumps.
LOL
Want me to do it again? Check it out:
RWS Meisterklugeln
Since I now had a good handle on the pump limits, I tested the 14-grain RWS Meisterkugeln with 3, 8 and 15 pump strokes.
Pumps
Velocity
3
518
8
611
15.
653
--
WoW! Increasing velocities again of a whopping 42 fps for the last 7 pumps.
Astounding power! -sarc-
Heck, my flat topped legos are at least good for 10 fps per pump after the initial 10 pumps.
The overpriced and underpowered butterfly can't even manage that it seems.
Your rifle, you say? The same rifle that hasn't come out yet? The same rifle that won't be ready to be shipped until May? That rifle is yours?
How can it be yours when it doesn't actually exist? Until May.
Wow, you must work for Crosman to have this much to say about another brands MSP! Do you need a special pillow for all of your butt pain?
You literally insulted my c362 and said it's not in the same league as the rest of them, for some reason. I'm not really sure what you stand to gain by any of this.
I guess your copy paste skills are good, but your reading comprehension is apparently terrible. Then you go on to compare a modified rifle against a factory rifle, and I know your flat top 13xx cost a lot more than a factory DF MKII.
Again, the DF MKII is within 0.1 FPE of the c362 with the same weight pellets, and the DF MKII was only picking up velocity over time. That's not something I can say about my c362. I'm going to own both and not really care about which one is "better." Apparently that's not an option for you and instead you have to go and slam a rifle that you don't even plan on owning. What a joke!
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The GTA used to be a nice place to come and share stuff about airguns, then Spacebus showed up, got his feathers all ruffled (for no reason), and started insulting everyone. This isn't the first time.
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The GTA used to be a nice place to come and share stuff about airguns, then Spacebus showed up, got his feathers all ruffled (for no reason), and started insulting everyone. This isn't the first time.
homie, I commented how excited I am for the DF MKII, and then the other dude started the insult train. I find it all pretty comical that he has to bully someone else on the internet over a rifle that isn't even in customer hands.
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Dragonfly MK2 = $199.99
Crosman C362 = $89.99
Not even a fair comparison IMO... just sayin.
BTW, I will give the DFMK2 a fair shake when it becomes available. I have some really good SPA guns.
I will say this though... I'm not pumping a gun 7 additional times to gain less than 50 fps.
Pumps
Velocity
3
518
8
611
15.
653
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Wow, you must work for Crosman to have this much to say about another brands MSP! Do you need a special pillow for all of your butt pain?
You literally insulted my c362 and said it's not in the same league as the rest of them, for some reason. I'm not really sure what you stand to gain by any of this.
I guess your copy paste skills are good, but your reading comprehension is apparently terrible. Then you go on to compare a modified rifle against a factory rifle, and I know your flat top 13xx cost a lot more than a factory DF MKII.
Again, the DF MKII is within 0.1 FPE of the c362 with the same weight pellets, and the DF MKII was only picking up velocity over time. That's not something I can say about my c362. I'm going to own both and not really care about which one is "better." Apparently that's not an option for you and instead you have to go and slam a rifle that you don't even plan on owning. What a joke!
It's interesting how you're accusing me of working for Crosman while pushing an overpriced, underpowered rifle from Asia.
Seems to me Air Venturi / Seneca really, really, really, wants people to pre-order this lemon.
Makes a person wonder why, y'know?
Your last post was the 2nd, possibly the 3rd one you've made to me that contains fatuous slander. Why? Because I disagreed with you? And, posted linked facts to support my position?
What was it you accused me of? Childishness?
M'kay. I'm out. Have fun with ..."your"... rifle that will likely not be delivered to you. Or, anyone else.
Why? Well, we could chat about supply chain issues.... Oh wait, we can't talk about that here. Good thing for Air Venturi, huh?
Bye.
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Dragonfly MK2 = $199.99
Crosman C362 = $89.99
Not even a fair comparison IMO... just sayin.
BTW, I will give the DFMK2 a fair shake when it becomes available. I have some really good SPA guns.
I will say this though... I'm not pumping a gun 7 additional times to gain less than 50 fps.
Pumps
Velocity
3
518
8
611
15.
653
I'm all for more MSP on the market, especially one that has such nice furniture. Nobody says you have to pump it up 15 times every time, just like folks don't pump up their 362 eight times every time. I find that 518 FPS with three 15lb pumps to be amazing, the 611 at eight pump is icing on the cake. 653 FPS with fifteen pumps is nice, but not always needed, and easy to do with each pump being like the first pump on a c362 or d880/901. I also like that the compression stroke stops an inch or two from the pump arm being closed, this will make pumping much quieter compared to other MSP on the market.
Already having essentially the same rifle in PCP form also makes it an attractive package. I'm hoping spare barrels will also be available.
I'll still enjoy my c362 when I pick up a DF MKII, after all the aftermarket just isn't there for the DF like the Crosman stuff.
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Wow, you must work for Crosman to have this much to say about another brands MSP! Do you need a special pillow for all of your butt pain?
You literally insulted my c362 and said it's not in the same league as the rest of them, for some reason. I'm not really sure what you stand to gain by any of this.
I guess your copy paste skills are good, but your reading comprehension is apparently terrible. Then you go on to compare a modified rifle against a factory rifle, and I know your flat top 13xx cost a lot more than a factory DF MKII.
Again, the DF MKII is within 0.1 FPE of the c362 with the same weight pellets, and the DF MKII was only picking up velocity over time. That's not something I can say about my c362. I'm going to own both and not really care about which one is "better." Apparently that's not an option for you and instead you have to go and slam a rifle that you don't even plan on owning. What a joke!
It's interesting how you're accusing me of working for Crosman while pushing an overpriced, underpowered rifle from Asia.
Seems to me Air Venturi / Seneca really, really, really, wants people to pre-order this lemon.
Makes a person wonder why, y'know?
Your last post was the 2nd, possibly the 3rd one you've made to me that contains fatuous slander. Why? Because I disagreed with you? And, posted linked facts to support my position?
What was it you accused me of? Childishness?
M'kay. I'm out. Have fun with ..."your"... rifle that will likely not be delivered to you. Or, anyone else.
Why? Well, we could chat about supply chain issues.... Oh wait, we can't talk about that here. Good thing for Air Venturi, huh?
Bye.
LOL! My rifle is a c362! Look at my signature. You found it necessary to bring up the c362 when I mentioned how excited I was for the DF MKII after seeing the numbers. You brought up the comparison, and then I listed the things I like. You are like a child that knocks down a bees nest and then cries when he gets stung. I didn't solicit your opinion to start, yet you found it necessary to try and force yours on me.
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Dragonfly MK2 = $199.99
Crosman C362 = $89.99
Not even a fair comparison IMO... just sayin.
BTW, I will give the DFMK2 a fair shake when it becomes available. I have some really good SPA guns.
I will say this though... I'm not pumping a gun 7 additional times to gain less than 50 fps.
Pumps
Velocity
3
518
8
611
15.
653
Awesome ballistics, huh? -sarc-
Didn't the original pump assisted Benjamin 392 have a similar velocity? 8 low exertion pumps for a little over 600 fps with 14.3 gr ?
Looks like the butterfly is following in its footsteps.
Lets call this thing what it is...its a Seneca Butterfly. For $200 bucks plus tax and shipping.
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LOL! My rifle is a c362! Look at my signature. You found it necessary to bring up the c362 when I mentioned how excited I was for the DF MKII after seeing the numbers. You brought up the comparison, and then I listed the things I like. You are like a child that knocks down a bees nest and then cries when he gets stung. I didn't solicit your opinion to start, yet you found it necessary to try and force yours on me.
After posting the actual numbers of what the Seneca Butterfly is capable of at the top of the page, I said I'd stick with my 362 in a later post. I fail to see how that would bother you or anyone else.
Have you checked PA's blog? Gaylord didn't even report on the butterfly's 10 yard accuracy. He's off on another project just as I predicted he would if the butterfly accuracy test went south.
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LOL! My rifle is a c362! Look at my signature. You found it necessary to bring up the c362 when I mentioned how excited I was for the DF MKII after seeing the numbers. You brought up the comparison, and then I listed the things I like. You are like a child that knocks down a bees nest and then cries when he gets stung. I didn't solicit your opinion to start, yet you found it necessary to try and force yours on me.
After posting the actual numbers of what the Seneca Butterfly is capable of at the top of the page, I said I'd stick with my 362 in a later post. I fail to see how that's the least bit offensive.
Have you checked PA's blog? Gaylord didn't even report on the butterfly's 10 yard accuracy. He's off on another project just as I predicted he would if the butterfly accuracy test went south.
how long have you been reading tom's blog? he regularly will take time between articles for a rifle review. i doubt the air arms tx200 was giving him too many issues, but he still has put a pause to that series many times ;)
the platform that this thing is built off of were known to be accurate AFTER installing a second barrel band. let's see if they fixed it with this one (there is now one included), or if it's more of a scatter gun :)
i'm hoping it's not a scatter gun because i pre ordered one. the first dragonfly seemed to have positive feedback all around but were all sold out by the time i wanted one.
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The GTA used to be a nice place to come and share stuff about airguns, then Spacebus showed up, got his feathers all ruffled (for no reason), and started insulting everyone. This isn't the first time.
Imagine my shock.
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LOL! My rifle is a c362! Look at my signature. You found it necessary to bring up the c362 when I mentioned how excited I was for the DF MKII after seeing the numbers. You brought up the comparison, and then I listed the things I like. You are like a child that knocks down a bees nest and then cries when he gets stung. I didn't solicit your opinion to start, yet you found it necessary to try and force yours on me.
After posting the actual numbers of what the Seneca Butterfly is capable of at the top of the page, I said I'd stick with my 362 in a later post. I fail to see how that's the least bit offensive.
Have you checked PA's blog? Gaylord didn't even report on the butterfly's 10 yard accuracy. He's off on another project just as I predicted he would if the butterfly accuracy test went south.
how long have you been reading tom's blog? he regularly will take time between articles for a rifle review. i doubt the air arms tx200 was giving him too many issues, but he still has put a pause to that series many times ;)
the platform that this thing is built off of were known to be accurate AFTER installing a second barrel band. let's see if they fixed it with this one (there is now one included), or if it's more of a scatter gun :)
i'm hoping it's not a scatter gun because i pre ordered one. the first dragonfly seemed to have positive feedback all around but were all sold out by the time i wanted one.
That's a darned good question. How long have I been reading Toms blog? At least a decade.
Newer pics of the butterfly are showing the barrel band?
Great ... It. Will. Need. It.
Several years ago I'd planned on getting a stormrider. Liked the light weight. 5 lbs, right?
Doesn't the butterfly weigh 6.5 lbs?
Know one cool thing I like about the 362? Rifle, steel breech, Hatsan Optima AO scope, 1/2-20 adapter and silencer weighs around 6 pounds. Few ounces over, maybe.
That will be important this summer when I'm in the woods in 100F heat with it.
Guys with the butterfly and a similar setup will be hunting with an 8 lb rifle. In the 100F heat.
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LOL! My rifle is a c362! Look at my signature. You found it necessary to bring up the c362 when I mentioned how excited I was for the DF MKII after seeing the numbers. You brought up the comparison, and then I listed the things I like. You are like a child that knocks down a bees nest and then cries when he gets stung. I didn't solicit your opinion to start, yet you found it necessary to try and force yours on me.
After posting the actual numbers of what the Seneca Butterfly is capable of at the top of the page, I said I'd stick with my 362 in a later post. I fail to see how that's the least bit offensive.
Have you checked PA's blog? Gaylord didn't even report on the butterfly's 10 yard accuracy. He's off on another project just as I predicted he would if the butterfly accuracy test went south.
how long have you been reading tom's blog? he regularly will take time between articles for a rifle review. i doubt the air arms tx200 was giving him too many issues, but he still has put a pause to that series many times ;)
the platform that this thing is built off of were known to be accurate AFTER installing a second barrel band. let's see if they fixed it with this one (there is now one included), or if it's more of a scatter gun :)
i'm hoping it's not a scatter gun because i pre ordered one. the first dragonfly seemed to have positive feedback all around but were all sold out by the time i wanted one.
That's a darned good question. How long have I been reading Toms blog? At least a decade.
Newer pics of the butterfly are showing the barrel band?
Great ... It. Will. Need. It.
Several years ago I'd planned on getting a stormrider. Liked the light weight. 5 lbs, right?
Doesn't the butterfly weigh 6.5 lbs?
Know one cool thing I like about the 362? Rifle, steel breech, Hatsan Optima AO scope, 1/2-20 adapter and silencer weighs around 6 pounds. Few ounces over, maybe.
That will be important this summer when I'm in the woods in 100F heat with it.
Guys with the butterfly and a similar setup will be hunting with an 8 lb rifle. In the 100F heat.
you seem pretty convinced to be unfriendly and a know it all. was trying to get the conversation light again. hope you have a good day and life is going well for you at home.
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@sticman77
Being realistic is unfriendly and a know it all?
Well, truth to tell ... my gut has been acting up for the past couple of month's. All the symptoms point towards pancreatitis.
At present its hard for me to eat. I started drinking Pepto Bismol a few days ago.
I'm not in pain, you understand. This is the discomfort stage. Pain will come later the way the medical people are dragging their feet....so, no everything isn't Ok at home.
Enjoy your butterfly.
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@sticman77
Being realistic is unfriendly and a know it all?
Well, truth to tell ... my gut has been acting up for the past couple of month's. All the symptoms point towards pancreatitis.
At present its hard for me to eat. I started drinking Pepto Bismol a few days ago.
I'm not in pain, you understand. This is the discomfort stage. Pain will come later the way the medical people are dragging their feet....so, no everything isn't Ok at home.
Enjoy your butterfly.
if you have access to some fiber supplements or high fiber foods (my favorite is grape nuts which i'm told is old people food now), with some fat free yogurt, that combo has done wonders for stomach issues for me. hope it doesn't get any worse.
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@sticman77
Being realistic is unfriendly and a know it all?
Well, truth to tell ... my gut has been acting up for the past couple of month's. All the symptoms point towards pancreatitis.
At present its hard for me to eat. I started drinking Pepto Bismol a few days ago.
I'm not in pain, you understand. This is the discomfort stage. Pain will come later the way the medical people are dragging their feet....so, no everything isn't Ok at home.
Enjoy your butterfly.
if you have access to some fiber supplements or high fiber foods (my favorite is grape nuts which i'm told is old people food now), with some fat free yogurt, that combo has done wonders for stomach issues for me. hope it doesn't get any worse.
My physician wants a change in my diet. Her nurse told me to lay off the whole bread bread because the transfats in it raise the cholesterol level.
Smart nurse, right? Um, No ... there is zero transfats and/or cholesterol in whole wheat bread.
I'm probably doomed....
Grape Nuts is the best young and old folks food around. Bar none. Pricey though. I like Kretchsmers wheat germ. Which is pretty pricey nowadays too.
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Thats enough gentlemen I mean it, absolutely no sense in grown men insulting each other like this especially on a public forum, David
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Tom Gaylords 10 yard accuracy test for the butterfly came out this morning. It's a good test.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-three/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-three/)
The butterfly does show good accuracy. Gaylord especially liked the trigger. Says its nearly perfect as is.
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Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle: Part Four
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Tom Gaylord at PA did the 25 yard accuracy test. He used open sights. Usually he scopes the airguns he tests for accuracy; but, not this time.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy - Five JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets landed in a vertical group that measures 1.03-inches between centers.
Apolo Air Boss
Next up was the .22-caliber Apolo Air Boss. They went into a group measuring 0.914-inches between centers.
Predator Polymag
Next I tried Predator Polymags. But they dont work well in the Dragonfly Mark 2. They gave an open group that measures 1.25-inches between centers. It is the largest group of the test.
Air Arms 18-grain domes
The next target was shot with 5 Air Arms 18-grain domes. I shot the 18-grainers because in Part 3 it seemed to me that the Dragonfly Mark 2 likes heavier pellets the best. Five of these went into 1.024-inches between centers. Its pretty much in the same ballpark as all the other pellets I have tested so far.
H&N Baracuda Match 5.51mm head
Oh! Apparently I dont have to shoot another group of the JSBs. I dont because the Dragonfly Mark 2 put five of the final pellets into a group that measures 0.585-inches between centers. This is what I was hoping for and its what I believe the Dragonfly Mark 2 is capable of with the right pellets.