GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Topic started by: mrbulk on March 08, 2021, 04:25:41 PM
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I know they are expensive (and likely sold out everywhere) but curious if it does create the kind of wound channel they speak of:
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/details-new-umarex-havox-hunting-pellets/
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I thought I seen a thread where they decided to not make them.
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Aww man, too bad. They certainly look deadly...
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Aww man, too bad. They certainly look deadly...
Maybe THAT's the reason they decided not to make them?
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At least it may make for more humane hunting.
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Seems I saw some one making something like that by pressing a small phillips head screw driver into the hollow point.
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Yeah I recall reading about that very recently, found this but it's for rimfire hollow pts not airgun pellets, although similar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn00vr6s-ks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn00vr6s-ks)
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I remember seeing this a while ago...
I tried this today with both rimfire and CPHP and noted no difference. Both in .22 cal. I shot at all kinds of stuff that would allow me to catch the projectile. Not worth the effort.
Although, I did notice more fragmentation with the airgun... which was rather interesting.
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Knifemaker and Motorhead had a couple threads going on this type of mod to HP slugs. Amazing results!
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Yeah That's where I saw that! Thanks.
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Knifemaker and Motorhead had a couple threads going on this type of mod to HP slugs. Amazing results!
Similar to the H&N Grizzly slugs.
Just remember that this kind of structure has a negative affect on BC. (As Motorhead noted.)
So quite possibly good for short-range hunting and pesting, but not so much fo 100 yards & out.
Must be tested with your own gun, of course, and only you can decide which trade-off is best.
Personally, I'm still working on it. :D
My current thinking is that a more lethal wound is better than slightly better trajectory & wind resistance, so yeah, break out that phillips head screwdriver....
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I´ve been traying to swage slugs with "petals", talon like using a cutter similar to a blank forming die. I´ve achieved several grades of success but as you mentioned accuracy suffers. The photos are .30 cal slugs 60 - 75 gr fired from a modified AF condor (+/- 800 fps) into clay, they expand well but I´m looking for fragmentation. Sorry for my english, comments are more than welcomed
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I tried digging for more info on these and it does not seem that they are intending to actually produce or sell them from the limited things I could find (mostly press from right around ShotShow 2017).
Pretty interesting concept, though!
The reply I got back from Umarex was basically the same as yours, no intentions of selling them.
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Some of my banana slug attempts
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Knifemaker and Motorhead had a couple threads going on this type of mod to HP slugs. Amazing results!
Yup those guys have explored this extensively.
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As a shortcut start with a hollow point then desect it, good luck. It's difficult and really requires more than a phillips head screw driver.
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As a shortcut start with a hollow point then desect it, good luck. It's difficult and really requires more than a phillips head screw driver.
A good accessory to make/sell would be a razor-edged Phillips-style "impressor" tool...
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I'd buy one!!
Matthias
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I'd buy one!!
Matthias
Me too! Hey - how about taking a mini file to the four forward facing flanges of a standard Phillips screwdriver head?
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As I recall from post(s) here,.... a hollow point and controlled cuts with razor blades,.... then re-close. I seem to recall someone making an impression of the nose in epoxy, or something,... and then using that cavity to force the now cut "petals" back to original profile.
Overall,.. I like the concept.
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Here's links to the other threads on hollowpointing with a Phillips bit and such...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182343.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182343.0)-Knife's original thread
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182487.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182487.0)-Knife's extension/furthering of the first thread
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182523.msg156079433#msg156079433 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182523.msg156079433#msg156079433)-Motorhead's take on the idea
Jesse
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Some examples of petal cutters
I made mine out of brass, since my slugs are 100% pure lead I have no problem with it
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Similar to the H&N Grizzly slugs.
Just remember that this kind of structure has a negative affect on BC. (As Motorhead noted.)
Has anyone tried filling the hole, the slug w/petals, with something like wax to help deal with B.C.?
Plastic being harder than wax would not be advantageous because it would not react as fast on impact, delay the opening of the petals.
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Some examples of petal cutters
I made mine out of brass, since my slugs are 100% pure lead I have no problem with it
Those are very cool looking. You should make some for sale...
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I´m in Mexico so I had no choice but to make them, You (lucky people in the US), can buy them, look for corbin swagging press (its called a saber tooth die), or look for blank cartridge forming dies.
I´ve been lookin for KnifeMaker and MotorHead posts about this issue, Knifemaker alone has 391 pages of posts, can somebody be more specific please?
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I´m in Mexico so I had no choice but to make them, You (lucky people in the US), can buy them, look for corbin swagging press (its called a saber tooth die), or look for blank cartridge forming dies.
I´ve been lookin for KnifeMaker and MotorHead posts about this issue, Knifemaker alone has 391 pages of posts, can somebody be more specific please?
I dug up the links; they are in my post a little further up the page.
Jesse
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Thanks a lot!!!!
I tried the phillips screw driver, you need to sharpen it, the "cutters" need to be really thin and the bullet must be a hollow point. Never tried with pellets only slugs. Pieces of a hacksaw (used a grinder to shape and sharpen them), brazed on a small diameter rod also function, keep in mind I make .30 cal slugs, smaller diameter slugs can be made but they are really difficult.
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Similar to the H&N Grizzly slugs.
Just remember that this kind of structure has a negative affect on BC. (As Motorhead noted.)
Has anyone tried filling the hole, the slug w/petals, with something like wax to help deal with B.C.?
Plastic being harder than wax would not be advantageous because it would not react as fast on impact, delay the opening of the petals.
That's a very interesting idea.
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Similar to the H&N Grizzly slugs.
Just remember that this kind of structure has a negative affect on BC. (As Motorhead noted.)
Has anyone tried filling the hole, the slug w/petals, with something like wax to help deal with B.C.?
Plastic being harder than wax would not be advantageous because it would not react as fast on impact, delay the opening of the petals.
Thank you.
At least it caught someone's attention.
I like to try to think out of the box even though it usually gets easily dismissed.
That's a very interesting idea.
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Here are a few pics. At the end, I will give results that are easily obtained for anyone.
Fast expanding, here in .25 cal. This is the simple version to make. I start with a hp of my own making and mold the slug afterwards. Ultra simple.
Select a star drive bit, in this case a # T-15. Start by using a good sharpening stone to bring the tips flat down to the point that there is no bevel on the tip. Follow by using a very fine stone to make sure it is flat and the lands if you will, the high points of the tip are dead flat. This will give a very sharp cutting surface.
Put a bit in a typical magnetic screwdriver and press down into the cavity firmly. This for short range accuracy. For fine accuracy. use a drill press or mill, and set the depth stop and put the T-15 in the chuck or quill. Depth has to be tested and once you find the proper depth for accuracy and expansion, set the depth stop to that spec. Done and Done!
Here are the slugs I start with.
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Now lets get started. For explosive expansion, or fragments as one poster requested, start here.
These are the .22 slugs. Both light weight and heavy.
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Now the mods for rapid expansion and fragmenting.
First the design for the PP-700 at 475 to 550 fps rapid expansion. It is unreal what it does to a trash bird, even at such low velocity.
I first did this by hand only. Once the out come wanted was obtained, I made a tool for the lathe. I used a piece of 3/8" brass round stock, cut a slit the size and length needed and inserted a typical box cutter blade in it and closed and jb welded it.
This is placed in either a drill chuck or in my case, the quill of a mill and depth set. In other words, i use the mill as a giant press. the slits go all the to the bottom of the deep hp cavity. Just above the driving band.
Next, I use a cone, and press the slug in nose first which closes the slits back to the original shape. No BC loss at all. Still very accurate.
In the larger slug, shot from the raptor at over 1030 fps, they fragment like a bomb! Woo-Hoo! Success!!!
My Wife doesn't like it when I use them though. I shot a trash bird a few weeks ago and there was, well, Meat all over the yard. Muahahahahaha did I mention that the two largest parts were about 10 yards apart. HMR performance in an Air Gun. Got'ta love it!
As for the Philips head, forget it. The H&N uses this in the hunter pellet and it fails miserably. It works in a .22 rim fire as it is a small nose and fast. At subsonic, not so much. And even when it does, it is not very effective as it only opens slightly. Giving results more more than a flat nose pellet.
Knife
P.S., that over .50 cal in the indicator is a .218, heavy with the #15 torque bit used. ;)
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I tested filled hp's extensively. It must be mentioned that the pistol slugs used in Fire Arms that use this technique is to prevent such media as Denim or leather from clogging the HP. Particularly in cold weather when the perp may be wearing heavy clothing. Our vermin wear no such clothing. It actually drastically restricts rapid expansion on game.
Knife
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Very interesting Mike and whoa, that last one is wicked! Would love to see a pic of the sharpened/modified bit!
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Mike you have far too much time on your hands and I greatly appreciate that.
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Mike you have far too much time on your hands and I greatly appreciate that.
You and me both Brother! Forced retirement was a curse at first. It is thurning out to be not so bad. Other than keeping me dirt poor. LOL
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Very interesting Mike and whoa, that last one is wicked! Would love to see a pic of the sharpened/modified bit!
That's doable. Thanks to you. ;)
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PDF'ing this page now; maybe at some point both Knife and Motorhead's HP mods can be made into a sticky? They are most definitely worthy of that... :D
Thanks again Knife for the slug R&D!
Jesse
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They do work well ... Personally have taken 2 spring / young Jack Rabbits last week with the .177 and 12.5 NSA's having been #0 size Xed.
heart lung shots with one rabbit about 40 yards, other @ 70 yards. Both knocked off there feet as if hit by a lightning bolt ... DRT !!!
Velocity at muzzle @ 1040
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I tested filled hp's extensively. It must be mentioned that the pistol slugs used in Fire Arms that use this technique is to prevent such media as Denim or leather from clogging the HP. Particularly in cold weather when the perp may be wearing heavy clothing. Our vermin wear no such clothing. It actually drastically restricts rapid expansion on game.
Knife
What do you mean by "filled?"
Do you add wax or something, to improve ballistics?
(Great work, BTW ! )
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They do work well ... Personally have taken 2 spring / young Jack Rabbits last week with the .177 and 12.5 NSA's having been #0 size Xed.
heart lung shots with one rabbit about 40 yards, other @ 70 yards. Both knocked off there feet as if hit by a lightning bolt ... DRT !!!
Velocity at muzzle @ 1040
That expansion looks to be about double the original diameter! Was there much penetration?
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That's doable. Thanks to you. ;)
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Mike,
Amazing work there! I am having a little difficulty visualizing your description " I made a tool for the lathe. I used a piece of 3/8" brass round stock, cut a slit the size and length needed and inserted a typical box cutter blade in it and closed and jb welded it."
Can you post a picture or multiple pictures of this 'devise'? It is unclear if you inserted 1 blade and make two cuts on the slug or if you have 2 blades inserted and make one cut in the slug.
In behalf of everyone, Thanks in advance,
M
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They do work well ... Personally have taken 2 spring / young Jack Rabbits last week with the .177 and 12.5 NSA's having been #0 size Xed.
heart lung shots with one rabbit about 40 yards, other @ 70 yards. Both knocked off there feet as if hit by a lightning bolt ... DRT !!!
Velocity at muzzle @ 1040
That expansion looks to be about double the original diameter! Was there much penetration?
The 40 yard rabbit was a shoot threw ... upon dressing out the exit hole / flesh was disrupted an easy 1/4" + So the slug had opened up before exiting.
On the longer shot slug was still in the rabbit looking very similar to above but beat up a bit from catching a rib on the way in. took no pics :'(
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They do work well ... Personally have taken 2 spring / young Jack Rabbits last week with the .177 and 12.5 NSA's having been #0 size Xed.
heart lung shots with one rabbit about 40 yards, other @ 70 yards. Both knocked off there feet as if hit by a lightning bolt ... DRT !!!
Velocity at muzzle @ 1040
That expansion looks to be about double the original diameter! Was there much penetration?
The 40 yard rabbit was a shoot threw ... upon dressing out the exit hole / flesh was disrupted an easy 1/4" + So the slug had opened up before exiting.
On the longer shot slug was still in the rabbit looking very similar to above but beat up a bit from catching a rib on the way in. took no pics :'(
Awesome, Sir.
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Muhahahaha (evil laugh)
I'm going to fire up the mill and cut some mold blanks, then spool up the lathe and cut a 'cherry' to make cavities in said mold. Then when 'knifemaker' gets back to us with specifics about how to make the tool, I can 'segment' the HP's) I REALLY want to have a good expanding (read exploding) projectile for "pests" and there does not appear to be any commercial alternative, so why not try to make my own (since I have hundreds of pounds of lead). ;)
I'll post pics IF it goes well, but I also have a lot of other people's projects on my bench, sooooo, I may have to peck away at this project a little at at time. I also have a half complete slug swaging setup that I need to finish up, and........ the list goes on and on. Simply not enough hours in the day.
M
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I REALLY want to have a good expanding (read exploding) projectile for "pests" and there does not appear to be any commercial alternative, so why not try to make my own (since I have hundreds of pounds of lead). ;)
Same here, but I don't have a drillpress. :(
Maybe one of you guys can turn this into a small money-making venture?
Another slight advantage of using a slug like this for pesting is that, if you miss, (not that I EVER miss at short range, of course!) the slug will theoretically not travel through as much material before coming to rest. Still a bad thing, but potentially much less so.
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Its a lot easier to swage them than to mold them, you get a lot more consistency on your slugs. Any way you make them its great to see them inside huge cavities.
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I tried the 6 petal cutter (bronze) and the 4 petal cutter, one made out of 1 piece and another using steel from a hacksaw blade, the other was milled out from steel, the first one worked perfectly but it broke, the one piece is still working.... I swage the slug, cut the petals and swage it lightly again in order to close the petals. The process is time consuming but the slugs work
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Maybe one of you guys can turn this into a small money-making venture?
I'd gladly support such a venture.
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Can't see anyone making any money doing these "Slice or Score" mods on previous manufactured slugs ???
Even fast as using the "0" size phillips and a couple taps is ..... to do a box of lets say 375 - 400 count NSA .22's is going to take you 45min to an hour.
Whats an hour of ones time worth doing said process as a money making venture ? Would think in this day and age $20 ++ an hour minimum
Add postage on a reshipping to a customer you quickly get a box of 375-400 costing $40 to $50
Simple math .....
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Totally agree with you. I noticed you cast the slugs, I swage them. There are plans for a swaging press in another forum (Cast Boolits), If I could make the press with very little tooling and knowledge it will be a joke for you. A reloading press is an option too, I have a Lee Classic cast press and its easy to modify it for swaging airgun slugs
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Can't see anyone making any money doing these "Slice or Score" mods on previous manufactured slugs ???
Even fast as using the "0" size phillips and a couple taps is ..... to do a box of lets say 375 - 400 count NSA .22's is going to take you 45min to an hour.
Whats an hour of ones time worth doing said process as a money making venture ? Would think in this day and age $20 ++ an hour minimum
Add postage on a reshipping to a customer you quickly get a box of 375-400 costing $40 to $50
Simple math .....
If I had a guaranteed place to do some small game pesting I would actually try a box at 10 cents a pop...($40 = box of 400). :D
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Can't see anyone making any money doing these "Slice or Score" mods on previous manufactured slugs ???
Even fast as using the "0" size phillips and a couple taps is ..... to do a box of lets say 375 - 400 count NSA .22's is going to take you 45min to an hour.
Whats an hour of ones time worth doing said process as a money making venture ? Would think in this day and age $20 ++ an hour minimum
Add postage on a reshipping to a customer you quickly get a box of 375-400 costing $40 to $50
Simple math .....
I'd gladly pay more than that, since I can't make them myself. The Leadfist ball-bearing slugs cost 40 cents each before shipping. The Griffin .25 LDC's (which I love) cost 25 cents each before shipping. They mushroom great, and would be much better for medium-range hunting, but MrBulk's cut slugs would likely be MUCH better for short-range pesting. (Although a short-range accuracy test would be good to see.)
AFAIK, no major manufacturer is making pesting-specific ammo, which is kind of surprising.
Granted, it would not exactly be a FUN way to make money, unless one could rig up some kind of fast-assembly system.
An alternative might be for someone to make & sell the dingus used to cut them. At least then folks with a drill press could then make their own pesting slugs.
Heck, I might even by a benchtop drillpress just to do it. (It would be very useful for other stuff.)
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Unfortunately I do not live in the US, it would be great to enjoy the hobbie, learn more, meet a lot of great people and make some money...
the cutter is not that difficult to make, all you need a is a X cutter, the phillips screw driver works but needs a lot of "sharpening" with a dremel tool, file or a small grinder. I cant afford US made slugs in Mexico, they are mega expensive, about 2 US dollar a piece and thats if you can find them(plus shipping), thats why I started experimenting with a lot of support from airgun and swaging forums
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Knifemaker can you share pics of your X cutter? What kind of steel are you using for it? I tried hacksaw blades (I grind them to shape) but they brake really easy (they work really well until they brake), do you brazed your cutter? It would be great to read more of your experiences.
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I tried to edit my last post but it was to late. Iis not only to knifemaker but also to Motorhead and all those experimenting with pre frag slugs. My english is not very good and the quarantine is rusting it even more
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I tried to edit my last post but it was to late. Iis not only to knifemaker but also to Motorhead and all those experimenting with pre frag slugs. My english is not very good and the quarantine is rusting it even more
my original post: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182523.msg156079433#msg156079433 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=182523.msg156079433#msg156079433)
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Thanks for sharing, do you have more photos? I see you make small bore projectiles, have you tried with big bores? Any ideas on swaging the slugs instead of casting them?
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You can use a Tap handle (t type) to hold the blade and slit the bullets, just grind a piece of a hacksaw blade or some other kind of steel (razor blades) to form the cutters, no need for a milling machine.
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No casting for me ... use what i can buy and modify them if wanting more expansion. If not shoot them as is. No Big Bore here either.
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Guys
Here is some info I passed to Knifemaker and Motorhead about using just the tips of these BH,
for making expanding petals in preformed slugs/bullets.
You may have to change the dia/taper and possibly the angles of the cutting blades to fit your application.
Here is what I have found so far, of some examples for both 4 bladed and 3 bladed for cut upon touching type BH points,
you have to remove all the main cutting blades and just use the points for the cutting sections etc.
IMHO, it would be Ideal to use in a drill press or mill to set the spec's needed.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WACEM-2-BLADED-MECHANICAL-BROADHEAD-4-Pack-MADE-IN-THE-USA/163507419527 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/WACEM-2-BLADED-MECHANICAL-BROADHEAD-4-Pack-MADE-IN-THE-USA/163507419527)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/60200-Rage-3-Blade-Chisel-Tip-X-Crossbow-Broadhead-1-6-Cut-3-Pack/363323802357?hash=item5497c942f5:g:gA8AAOSwOzxgT9L8 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/60200-Rage-3-Blade-Chisel-Tip-X-Crossbow-Broadhead-1-6-Cut-3-Pack/363323802357?hash=item5497c942f5:g:gA8AAOSwOzxgT9L8)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Archery-Hunting-Arrowheads-Blade-Tips-Broadheads-Screw-Points-Crossbow-Bow-Shoot/264586527010?var=564357785521 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Archery-Hunting-Arrowheads-Blade-Tips-Broadheads-Screw-Points-Crossbow-Bow-Shoot/264586527010?var=564357785521)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Deepower-4-Pack-Archery-Broadhead-3-Blade-100Grain-Broadhead-Solid-Hunting-Broad/164547177874 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Deepower-4-Pack-Archery-Broadhead-3-Blade-100Grain-Broadhead-Solid-Hunting-Broad/164547177874)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Muzzy-Iron-2-and-3-Blade-Replacement-Tips-w-O-Ring/401775488930 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Muzzy-Iron-2-and-3-Blade-Replacement-Tips-w-O-Ring/401775488930)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Slick-Trick-SlickTrick-GrizzTrick-2-125Gr-4-Fixed-Blade-Broadhead/232865243032 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Slick-Trick-SlickTrick-GrizzTrick-2-125Gr-4-Fixed-Blade-Broadhead/232865243032)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ramcat-R1000-Broadhead-Hydroshock-100Gr-3-Blade-1-3-8-Cut-3Pk/265099311122 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ramcat-R1000-Broadhead-Hydroshock-100Gr-3-Blade-1-3-8-Cut-3Pk/265099311122)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Radical-Archery-MadMan-Series-HPV100-4-Blade-100gr-Broadhead/293587782517 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Radical-Archery-MadMan-Series-HPV100-4-Blade-100gr-Broadhead/293587782517)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Muzzy-Trocar-HB-Ti-Hybrid-100-Grain-4-Blade-3-Pack-Broadheads-297-Ti/223025407917 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Muzzy-Trocar-HB-Ti-Hybrid-100-Grain-4-Blade-3-Pack-Broadheads-297-Ti/223025407917)
I am trying #1 (4 bladed and a 3 bladed), waiting on parts etc.
Your thoughts or suggestions................. ;)
Tia,
Don
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If you use such a solid "cutter" the bullet will deform, you need something as thin as possible, check on corbin press, the x punch and the saber tooth punch.... same principle as a the phillips screwdriver but much thinner. I tried the tap holder but the blades move, need to brazed them I´ll add some photos later
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This are the cutters I tried:
A solid one meda of a piece of steel and a tap holder with hacksaw blades grinded to size.... both work, the tap holder is a little better but needs brazing
I use a corbin style swaging press so after the cutter I use the original slug die and form is recovered. Solid cutters like your broadheads will distort the slug to much
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Thin blade (left) vs sharpened phillips screwdriver bit and a slit slug after reforming (right).
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Thin blade (left) vs sharpened phillips screwdriver bit and a slit slug after reforming (right).
What is required for the reforming? (I don't make my own slugs)
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I use a swaging press, a reloading press can also be used. I swage the slugs, cut the slits and reform them...time consuming but satisfying
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I would take a metal stem that was as deep as the original bullet/slug,
give the bullet/slug several good coats of paste wax/mold release agent,
fill the metal stem with Epoxy, insert bullet/slug square and true to depth,
let epoxy harden, then use this mold to reform the slit bullets/slugs back to OEM shape.
This can be used in my pellet forming press, along with the slitting punch.......... ;)
Tia,
Don
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That might work, you dont need a lot of pressure to reshape the slug, its worth the try. I made the dies from aluminum, my lathe is small and not a lot of skills from my side but they work.
Drill a small diameter hole through your "mold" then drill a larger one and use the epoxy, do not fill the small diameter hole and use it with a small dimater rod) to extract your reshaped slugs. Good luck and share your results
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Thats how you make a slug on a corbin press, obviously not my video just found it in youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jvSt3A43g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jvSt3A43g)
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What if I cast the slug with a cutter inside the mold? that would possible give me less distortion, some time ago I made some molds for HP slugs and last night got the idea... what if I modify the HP inserts? It might work
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Stick a sharpened Philips head or torxs bit in and find out.
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They might work, but are to big, you need to make the "wings" thinner
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I followed your advice on using steel from a razor blade (0.0106") vs a hacksaw blade (0.0226"), then I use the cutter inside a cylindrical die (the slug is inside the die, there is a punch moving from bottom to top and the cutter moves from top to bottom)...results are perfect, now i can slice the slugs within 1 mm of its base. The blade cutter holder is a tap wrench, just moded so it can be placed instead of the upper punch of the press . Slug is cut with almost no distortion.
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Wow, nice work on your slug slicer! Can you please post more pics of the blades and details of the rest of your tool? I can clearly see I have been slacking and need to get in the game on this project as I need some 'make'em pop' slugs.
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I´ve been using a swaging press (not really enjoyed casting), it was a DIY project from another forum...dont know if I´m allowed to post the link. Is not easy to make but not impossible either. I have no prior experience with lathe or mill work but managed to finally finish the press. Then the dies (cherry cutter is a new word for me!!!). The X cutter is simply a taping wrench since its already divided in 4, so 3 pieces of thin steel (a single edge blade was the source of steel), carefully grinded until correct size was obtained. My goal is .30 sliced slugs (almost there), but also own a .40 and a 25 modified AF condors (waiting for this kind of slugs). I´ll post more photos, sorry about my english and lack of technical expertise. Hope this helps
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Ruben, I normally would have just PM'd you, but I think most of the people here would appreciate seeing your progress and ideas. Not everyone on this forum has advanced machinery, so your solutions can be duplicated by almost everyone with enough patients and hand skills.
As for what you can and can't post, the rules are pretty clear on the 'rules page' however that is also why there are moderators. You can either send them a PM with an inquiry as to if your idea is ok to post, or post it and they will remove it if it is not ok (first method preferred).
No oligopolies necessary for your English, your point comes across perfectly well, also "a photograph is worth a thousand words", your use of images with your description has been valuable in your explanations (some people are just more visually orientated).
Sadly my own work with my slug ideas has stalled, just too much going on with the family and my 'real job' to get any 'hobby time' in right now.
Keep up the great work and by all means please continue to share (this applies to everyone ;) Who doesn't like innovation?
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OK I checked the posting rules and I´m allowed to post and external link, this is the link to the swaging press DIY project: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?76514-Lets-make-a-Swage-press (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?76514-Lets-make-a-Swage-press)
Its not easy to make but with some patience you can make one, the plans are very detailed and the the press works perfectly, I could not get the suggested steel mentioned, instead I got common iron (?) from a scrap yard and so far it works OK total cost of material was less than 50 USD (I´m in Mexico so price will be different in the US).
The press needs dies thats the difficult part, the inside is hollowed with the exact slug form. You have to make the slug form in O1 steel (you tube has excelent videos) and then make the die. The press has 2 punches, one on the top and one on the bottom, the generated pressure makes the slug and you control particularities (HP, BT, etc) using different punches. Check this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jvSt3A43g&t=180s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jvSt3A43g&t=180s)
Due to my lack of skills choose aluminum instead of steel for die making, so far they are OK, no big issues with them being softer than steel.
Another excelent video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb4ozhvptT4&t=721s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb4ozhvptT4&t=721s)
As an option You can buy a Corbin press and dies in the US, problem is that they are really expensive, even a reloading press works too, you can find some info in Cast Boolits forum.
I´ll add more photos later
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More photos
The new X cutter
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First and second photos are core forming molds (they form a small lead cylinder) third photo is a Slug forming die with lower punches inserted (slug is formed pointing downward)
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Several slug modification attempts, the road was not easy
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Upper punches (usually they form the bottom of the slug) you can make flat bottoms, boattails, concave bases etc
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This combination tap holder, thin blades, inside a cylinder die seems to work, last photo is a fired slit slug (30 cal 85 gr 700 fps fired into plasticine), almost fragmented (thats the goal). I´ve been able to progress thanks to a lot of help from US and Mexican airgun/casting/swaging bullets forums. I´m more than happy to share photos and ideas with all of you
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Ruben keep it up eventually you will get it down to a perfect science.
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Nice work Ruben!
Jesse
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Ruben,
Wow, Thank You for sharing, greatly appreciated.
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Comments, questions, ideas, suggestions, improvements are welcomed and appreciated
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Ruben,
In case I missed it, can you explain how the 'x' blades stay together and in the tap wrench? Do the blades lock together with opposing notches, then go in the wrench or are they individual (4) blades? Does the tap wrench (ingenious usage by the way) 'clamp' the blades in or are they soldered/glued?
Maybe you could post a pic of your shop and what machinery/ tools you might have, it would give everyone a good idea of what can be accomplished when someone puts their mind to something.
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I just used the tap holder, no glue. When you tighten the holder the blades stay in place. I tried to braze them but they lose their temper and became to soft. In a 4 blade cutter use 3 blades 1 "big" and 2 smaller ones. I´ve experimenting with a small drill chuck (from a foredom chuck), you get a 3 bladed cutter (bsterne would say odd numbers work better), the chuck seems to hold the blades better than the tap holder
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Ruben; I do have one question...
When I see the cut slug in your photo here:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=184914.0;attach=356080;image)
The petals have a little bit of separation; do you close them back up (form them back into their original shape, no gaps between the leaves), or shoot them as-is?
Thanks;
Jesse
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I have the idea that shooting them "in the rough" would decreased accuracy, I use the forming die again and its difficult to detect the cut lines. I cant expect a lot from my rifle, the barrel is from a 1903 Springfield, the rifling is perfect but I was told the twist is to fast: gun barrels are imposible to buy in Mexico and can not be legally imported (I tried). Anyway I do have a lot of fun with the condor, is a lot more powerful than spring guns and the slug "development" just adds to the fun
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Luge, I use 3 "blades" in the 4 petal cutter, the bigger one is 7.62 mm wide (thats for .30/7.62 cal slugs) it must fit inside the die, the other 2 are around 3.7 mm (sorry its metric your sistem is a mess for me), the tap holder keeps them in position without the need of strange forms in the blades. Be careful slicing the slugs since the cutters are brittle, you have to go straight (thats why I use the press). I´m looking for someone who does silver brazing, that might work or even try to re anneal the cutters once brazed (they loose their temper and become very soft). The slugs you intend to slice must be hollow pointed, a deep cavity is better, it allows you to cut closer to the base.
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This is the new 3 blade version (still working on it), its hacksaw steel (thinner steel works better), but I hope the new photos help. The holder is a number 0 jacobs chuck, the blades are rectangular and still need a lot of grinding.
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Rubén, 😊
thanks for all your info and pics — I'm starting to think I could try to do something like the method you have been explaining to us — even though I'm far less mechanically gifted than you!
I would certainly a BLAST! (for the trash birds, that is [and well, for me, too 🤣!])
Greetings from Peru! I hope your covid situation in Mexico is a little better than ours here — in a few weeks a good friend will move from Peru to Mexico....
Matthias
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You should try them, its pure fun. I have no experience/training on machining, allways like to try new stuff and this really got me. CoViD situation its difficult in Mexico, not enough vaccines, no real goverment handling of the situation but hopefuly we all get over this.
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This thread is almost onto 6 pages and it keep bumping into it! Time to add something...
I'm enjoying following the idea and like most think I might build something sometime. Thanks for the information.
Ruben, your air rifle adventures get more and more interesting...a Springfield barrel on your air rifle? How did you do that?
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Rubén, 😊
thanks for all your info and pics — I'm starting to think I could try to do something like the method you have been explaining to us — even though I'm far less mechanically gifted than you!
I realized about 2 pages back that this is something I'll NEVER be able to do. :D
A great thread to read, though, regardless.
I'm still hoping someone might find a way to "mass produce" these and sell them to GTA members.
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I got the rifle barrel from a friend (I have some Cristera war era Mexican Mausers in my collection so we had a lot of things in common), my lathe is to small for the barrel so I took it to another friend (with a bigger lathe), who took away the chamber and cut the barrel to diameter (the thin part for the condor, in spanish is called "el popote" the straw), it was really simple. I modified the valve making it bigger, never reached the velocity numbers claimed by others but it OK for me 650 - 800 fps with 95 - 45 gr bullets. One of these days I´ll buy a 4500 psi rated air tank who knows... Then I read about talon slugs and was really impressed thats how the search started
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Wow Ruben those fragmented-cut bullets look Awesome👍🏼
I especially liked the three slotted one🎉🪅🎊
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3 blade cutter also works, even tried on .30 and .40 cal pellets, they need more support than a slug (they collapsed) but with some patience can be sliced too. as you can see the blades move sometimes, I need some brazing to support them 8as suggested by luge), the cuts were made without a die and the blades are still untrimmed.
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Ruben,
I'd love to take credit for suggesting you braze your blades, but I believe it was a question as to if your blades were soldered or glued or slotted. In hindsight I believe brazing will destroy the temper of the metal, so if done, they will need to be heat treated again.
Here is a suggestion though. IF the blades are cut down to the minimum length required to make the 'cuts' in the lead, they will flex much less than if they are very long. It may do away with the need to secure the blades to each other on the 3 blade (120 degree) version. For the 4 blade (90 degree) version, you might try using a Dremal cut-off blade to carefully slot the 2 blades 1/2 way through. One cut from the front, one cut from the back, like an arrow hunting broad head. The 2 blade slotted setup may be more rigid than the 1+2 little blade setup for cutting 4 slots. Eh, I'm just spitballing here out loud, but though I might make an actual suggestion to your progress. ;)
Enjoying this thread immensely,
M
(and this makes page 6!) ;D
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Try using very thin cutoff wheels, dremel´s are very thick and the blade gets very weak (I used dentist wheels I got at a swap meet). Yes we have to keep experimenting but its better if you have 100 suggestions and points of view (and 6 pages of support). I have never been able to temper any kind of steel O1 is supposed to be very easy to work but never been able to temper it, I have no idea whats the material on hacksaw blades but the steel on single edge blades looses the temper if heated. I´ll do more experiments as time allows
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Matt has a good point about stiffness. I too remember something about brazing coming up as not practical for the blades, but perhaps a silver-bearing low temperature solder would do? I was going to say even lead-free plumbing solder is better than lead-tin solders we all grew up with, but looking online, I am not sure that is the case. Judging from this source (https://www.msed.nist.gov/solder/NIST_LeadfreeSolder_v4.pdf), a number of lead-free soldering alloys that have bismuth are going to be high strength alloys. (Table on page 8 rates them, the tables on pages 59 through about 70 described them, identifying the manufacturer, but not the actual solder...)
If you can get it, I was thinking of the Stay-Brite solders by Harris, which come in around 14,000. I was under the impression that Stay-Brite 8 is stronger, but it is only by maybe a few percent. It fills big gaps, but naturally doesn't flow as easily as regular Stay-Brite, which I found easy to use, especially with their flux. I bought a small kit with flux online.
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Sounds like a good idea, I dont believe is available to me but try it, it would be great to hear your experiences.
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I had the 3 bladed cutter brazed, grinded the blades, removed the excess brass (might need even a little more removal)...they cut perfectly!!!! Blades are rigid and cut stright down, the slugs need the die as a support in order to avoid distortion but it works!!!!
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Congratulations, looks fantastic. You may find the blades are 'softer' now that they aren't heat treated, but for splitting lead, they should hold up pretty well. If not, a light touch up with a sharpening slip stone or diamond hone should bring the blades back to sharp very quickly.
M
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I tried with several hacksaw brands, to my surprise a Mexican hacksaw (Hecort blue, advertised as high speed steel), was able to maintain its temper, the steel is very hard and hardly bends; chinese, Nicholson and some others I tried, became soft (after brazing) and did not cut. Maybe you can find it in the US or check for a US brand that works for you
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I tried with several hacksaw brands, to my surprise a Mexican hacksaw (Hecort blue, advertised as high speed steel), was able to maintain its temper, the steel is very hard and hardly bends; chinese, Nicholson and some others I tried, became soft (after brazing) and did not cut. Maybe you can find it in the US or check for a US brand that works for you
If I remember correctly; in one of my old (1940's-50's) machinist's handbooks high speed steel (also called HSS) was described as having the ability to reach red heat for short periods and still retain most of it's hardness; allowing for higher machining speeds.... Most of the U.S.-made hacksaw blades that I am aware of are bimetal-they weld on HSS teeth to an alloy backer; so the majority of the blade is carbon(???) steel and would lose it's temper at brazing heat...
Just a possible explanation; might make selection of blade material easier for someone else :D
Thanks for sharing; stay safe,
Jesse
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Great explanation!!!! Thats more valuable info for the project and yes, some of the blades I tried were marked bimetal, they became soft (malleable) when heated.
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Hmmm, HSS strip stock in a hacksaw blade? Amazon and eBay have plenty of them, sort of. Have to read the fine print to make sure it isn't a high-speed hacksaw blade or a replacement for HSS blades (i.e. bi-metal).
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You need non bi metal blades, bi metals wont work (they become soft), look for HSS blades. Mine was brazed with brass (thats what the guy at the shop told me), he used an oxy-acetylene torch, a small one based on the size of the flame.
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Finally got some time to play with the slugs. I retouched the blades, they were to thick, at about 0.035" so I carefully grinded then to about 0.018", then cut some slugs unfortunatelly cant fire the rifle more than 2 or 3 times, its really loud, but the slugs are fragmentating (a little deeper cut is needed), they made a cavity 3 inches deep 1.5 inches wide in plasticine (child clay), temp is about 32 C here so it was softer than usual and closer to flesh (muscle tissue). One of the slugs broke in pieces, at least 3 (clay literally exploded) it was 58 gr slug. Second shot 80 gr slug, same kind of "wound" little deeper, slug broke in 2 pieces. Slugs are .30 cal fired from a Condor,
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Any more developments to making fragmenting slugs and pellets?
I'd love to find out!
I finally have moved to larger calibers and more power, so I'd really like get started on this road.
Matthias