GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: fwbsport on December 26, 2020, 11:35:25 AM
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Yes it can. What about your ideas with the .177 compared to bigger calibers. Why does anyone need more than a .177?
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My experience .22 is a replace all for hunting humanly.
However, you can bring food on the table (large game included) with .177 with the right setup and of course, the right shot placement.
In terms of plinking and targets, .177 is a replace all.
However, if it was the only thing I had available to me during an apocalyptic situation, then yes, I wouldn't be complaining. It's better than nothing.
So to directly answer your question: Yes, it technically can be.
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Yes it can. What about your ideas with the .177 compared to bigger calibers. Why does anyone need more than a .177?
LOL...."ideas" for some is that a .40 PCP is "needed" to bring down a 3 pound squirrel yet another "idea" for others is that a .177 & .22 is adequate for 150 pound hogs. Remember the Gamo sales pitch from years ago where a .177 pellet gun was used to dispatch a pig?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M7YHZi4t9E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M7YHZi4t9E)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZeyMf74sIk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZeyMf74sIk)
Anywhoo......for ALL my airgunning (including hunting squirrels) the "skinny pellet" works better than both the .20 and .22 cal pellet with my HW95 power level springers. Out to my 30 yard zero distance it didn't matter if the pellet was .177, .20 or .22, however past this distance the loopier trajectory of the "fatter pellets" made precise pellet placement problematic.
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I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177.
Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right? How far can you get during that one second time in which the bullet will drop 5 m? Doesn't matter if it's .177 or .25 if it goes 1000m during that one second. Or am I missing something?
I have a .25 that shoots just as fast as my .177. So 7.4 grain .177 pellet going at 1025 FPS will have the same approximate flight path as .25 at that same speed. But I expect the .25 would perform better at distance because of its higher mass and greater inertia.
As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces.
I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same velocities.
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For me, these one caliber do it all discussions have the same relevance as one gun do it all discussions, which is basically, zip. Just not me at all on either count. These topics make for fun discussions, though, so go for it. It's all in good fun.
Oh, we do have more 177s than any other caliber, because we are strictly target shooters and the bulk of our shooting is 30 yards or less, but we also have 20s and 22s and who knows, I might get an itch to try a 25 at some point. Hey, why not? Bet a 25 could really ring the steel at 30 yards. :)
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All of my airguns are .177 caliber and that suits my 30 yard target and spoon shooting just fine.
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I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177.
Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right? How far can you get during that one second time in which the bullet will drop 5 m? Doesn't matter if it's .177 or .25 if it goes 1000m during that one second. Or am I missing something?
I have a .25 that shoots just as fast as my .177. So 7.4 grain .177 pellet going at 1025 FPS will have the same approximate flight path as .25 at that same speed. But I expect the .25 would perform better at distance because of its higher mass and greater inertia.
As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces.
I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same velocities.
Selective reading?
"Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right?"
LOL....that's the point since the speed is dependent on the springer!
"I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177. "
From my reply.........
"works better than both the .20 and .22 cal pellet with my HW95 power level springers", also, the sectional density plays into "trajectory".
"As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces. "
Yep, I agree, however my Beeman R9 and HW95 doesn't shoot as fast with .20 or .22 cal pellets.
"I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same
Hummmm....perhaps it also means that some shooters aren't interested in buying/pumping air, counting shots and the extra expense of a "life support system" needed to fill the gun from a "high pressure bomb". Some shooters aren't even interested in carrying around a 4 foot long 15 pound piston gun/scope! LOL, when I tried out the .20 cal from my R9 I needed to use a "high stress hold sensitive tune" to get 820fps from a .20 cal Beeman FTS pellet whereas I was shooting 7.9 grain Crosman Premiers at 900 with a much softer less hold sensitive tune. The "cherry of top" with the .177 dome was that it was every bit as effective on tree squirrels as the .20 Beeman FTS and it was easier to "hit the mark" past my zero distance.
Anywhoo, as mentioned I shot .177 HW springers for a few years, drank the "fatter pellet mo gooder KoolAid" and bought a .20 R9, then swapped out the .20 barrel for a chopped and choked .22 barrel. After a season and half of .20/.22 pellet shooting I sold both barrels, reverting back to .177 cal never to look back! Explaining again ,out to my 30 yard zero distance it didn't matter if the pellet was .177, .20 or .22, however past this distance the loopier trajectory of the "fatter pellets" made precise pellet placement problematic." It made no sense to me to change from something that simply worked best and I have need of no other, especially if it includes lugging around a gun heavier than my HW95 or especially if it includes buying/pumping air, counting shots and the extra expense of a "life support system"
The subject of the OP was "Can the .177 Replace All?" and my reply was simply that FOR ME it does.
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REALLY ? are we so bored that this silly subject needs to be talked about for the umpteenth time ???
.177 does better than any other calibers when a small pellet making a small hole with lower power at close to moderate distance in required.
True enough ...
REPLACE ALL ..... Not a chance !!
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REALLY ? are we so bored that this silly subject needs to be talked about for the umpteenth time ???
.177 does better than any other calibers when a small pellet making a small hole with lower power at close to moderate distance in required.
True enough ...
REPLACE ALL ..... Not a chance !!
Yep....fer sure :o
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Yes it can. What about your ideas with the .177 compared to bigger calibers. Why does anyone need more than a .177?
I need more than .177 because. 20 exists.
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I don't even need an airgun but I have 5. Need doesn't enter into it for me at all... yet here I am needing another Airgun. I "need" a big bore.
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I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177.
Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right? How far can you get during that one second time in which the bullet will drop 5 m? Doesn't matter if it's .177 or .25 if it goes 1000m during that one second. Or am I missing something?
I have a .25 that shoots just as fast as my .177. So 7.4 grain .177 pellet going at 1025 FPS will have the same approximate flight path as .25 at that same speed. But I expect the .25 would perform better at distance because of its higher mass and greater inertia.
As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces.
I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same velocities.
What you are missing is the mass or weight of the projectile. You would need a 7.4g .25 pellet to make your example valid. A 30g .25 would hit the ground in a shorter distance than a 7.4g .177 fired at the same speed and angle. The same properties that help it buck the wind help it buck the air resistance caused by gravity.
While you technically could do almost anything with a .177, ammo options make it easier to cover more bases with more calibers. You would really need more than one rifle or barrel at the minimum to shoot that wide of a range of ammo well so why limit it to one caliber?
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Yes it can. What about your ideas with the .177 compared to bigger calibers. Why does anyone need more than a .177?
Not even close,...to the 1st question.
Many, many needs for bigger calibers,...to the 2nd question.
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I'm not sure that weight or mass is important in terms of what I was describing. I was just referring to how "flat" a trajectory is, and that's just a function of how far the pellet travels in the time that it drops. If two pellets travel the same distance in the same time and one of them weighs 10 times as much will still follow more or less the same path. It's like if you drop a bowling ball and a BB they hit the ground at more or less the same time. This is not correct?
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I may be wrong, Ive never been good at math but I think this is the formula to determine if caliber is universal;
Wind factor X FPS + (Length of the yard ) / (Money in wallet + # of rifles you own) – kids college fund/ 401K = Caliber
Cans of pellets you own + Scope cost / Target backstop thickness or # pounds of Quarry
;D
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BTW, I do think .177 is universal subject to the quarry size and distance.
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I have zero credibility here since my need is to shoot whatever I feel like in my 11m suburban garage range! New hobby, thank you pandemic. You noticed all those missing pellets this year? That was me.
So at the moment I have a few .177, .22 magnum springer, vanilla .25 pcp, and steroid .25 pcp and crazy as it sounds the 'Roided .25 is my most adaptable. I can pump it up to a valve locked state At 3900 psi and shoot 33.5 grains at anywhere from 600-900 FPS with small hammer spring tweaks . Add some moderate spring load and I can shoot those same slugs supersonic. If I shoot at Or only pump to 2500-3100 psi I can shoot 50 grain slugs at 1000+ FPS and still not have maxed out the hammer spring. For me, it seems perfect. Some days I only shoot up at higher pressure from 3900 down to 3000 and when I'm done it's still perfectly primed to shoot the heavier slugs without refilling.
I know reliability and consistency from shot to shot are paramount for others so this is just for my own case. I also know that an 11 m garage ranch is not really testing out the limits of anything. Other than maybe the nosiness of my neighbors.
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I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177.
Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right? How far can you get during that one second time in which the bullet will drop 5 m? Doesn't matter if it's .177 or .25 if it goes 1000m during that one second. Or am I missing something?
I have a .25 that shoots just as fast as my .177. So 7.4 grain .177 pellet going at 1025 FPS will have the same approximate flight path as .25 at that same speed. But I expect the .25 would perform better at distance because of its higher mass and greater inertia.
As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces.
I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same velocities.
The " .177 has a flatter trajectory " is old news from back in the day when the only power plant was springers, nowadays it means nothing since you have PCPs that will shoot any caliber as fast as a .177 can travel.
Some will still bring that argument up once in awhile, but today it's completely worthless :)
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This is what I was thinking- kept seeing those posts and it was making me wonder what was going on.
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These type or discussions crack me up. Next it will be; "Can a Springer Replace All". ;)
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Can your Ford Prius replace your 4x4 truck at the farm ? :) :) LOL
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Can your Ford Prius replace your 4x4 truck at the farm ? :) :) LOL
so true !
And can a Tack hammer drive in a 16 penny nail ?
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Bloviating. ;D
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Can your IBM 286 be used for video editing?
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Ummm...No ! I shoot 100 plus yrds.
And it's a Toyota.
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Is this a Christmas question reincarnated for the holiday?
[hearty chuckling with twinkling eye in Santa fashion]
.177s for all, and to all a good night!
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Can try if you like...
Does do about 90% of the airguning I do the most of.....it's that pesky 10%. Someone else may reverse thatand really only need the good qualites of a .177 10% of the time.
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Bollocks! To each his/her own!
Good night, and good luck.
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If all there was were .177 I could learn to work with it, 4500 PSI can move a heavy .172 slug pretty good from what I have seen.
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Yes it can. What about your ideas with the .177 compared to bigger calibers. Why does anyone need more than a .177?
LOL...."ideas" for some is that a .40 PCP is "needed" to bring down a 3 pound squirrel yet another "idea" for others is that a .177 & .22 is adequate for 150 pound hogs. Remember the Gamo sales pitch from years ago where a .177 pellet gun was used to dispatch a pig?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M7YHZi4t9E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M7YHZi4t9E)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZeyMf74sIk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZeyMf74sIk)
Anywhoo......for ALL my airgunning (including hunting squirrels) the "skinny pellet" works better than both the .20 and .22 cal pellet with my HW95 power level springers. Out to my 30 yard zero distance it didn't matter if the pellet was .177, .20 or .22, however past this distance the loopier trajectory of the "fatter pellets" made precise pellet placement problematic.
I was realizing more power isn't necessary when a Daystate .177 Huntsman is on the scene. That rifle is another .177 and I like .20, .25 as well in the HW95 arrangement.
Can I kill a pig with the Daystate? I'd go in one eye and out the other or in the ear. But any pellet would require the SAME placement to kill!
I know if I had bought the HW98 .177 sooner I'd have really discovered a WHOLE NEW WORLD in the HW95 machine. Mine has a screw on attached muzzle weight/break/dampener that can be replaced with a regular HW moderator found on the HW80 K or other.
But the idea of a moderator is to calm the shot into better accuracy and all is calm with the HW98 in ANY caliber.
Ed,
You may diss the HW98 in place of an R9 or HW95 but if you move away from a rest including forked sticks to offhand the HW98 is WHERE IT'S AT!
I CAN say the HW98 will replace any rifle in its own caliber. Taking time with one is easy and getting the pellets (whatever you choose, I chose .177 Sovereign Rangemaster Kaiser 10.33gr) the rifle WILL shoot them better than another rifle without the bells and whistles.
If forked sticks at 40 yards was my only "rest" to use as a modified rest I'd still choose offhand to make the shot.
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I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177.
Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right? How far can you get during that one second time in which the bullet will drop 5 m? Doesn't matter if it's .177 or .25 if it goes 1000m during that one second. Or am I missing something?
I have a .25 that shoots just as fast as my .177. So 7.4 grain .177 pellet going at 1025 FPS will have the same approximate flight path as .25 at that same speed. But I expect the .25 would perform better at distance because of its higher mass and greater inertia.
As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces.
I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same velocities.
For me the .20 in D54 or the .177 in HW98 would fill all the gaps in air rifle shooting.
However, I like shooting offhand it is my only time to do something I can do with any rifle handed to me.
If you give me an HW98 in any caliber I will have it sighted in offhand in less time someone with a bench can do.
I like all the pellet rifle calibers until .30 which I hate from experience with an FX BOSS .30 I sold to "the Gipper" a couple years or more ago.
Why not just pump up a .60 caliber PCP with a compressor tank or something if the .177 is too small for you?
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For me, these one caliber do it all discussions have the same relevance as one gun do it all discussions, which is basically, zip. Just not me at all on either count. These topics make for fun discussions, though, so go for it. It's all in good fun.
Oh, we do have more 177s than any other caliber, because we are strictly target shooters and the bulk of our shooting is 30 yards or less, but we also have 20s and 22s and who knows, I might get an itch to try a 25 at some point. Hey, why not? Bet a 25 could really ring the steel at 30 yards. :)
I LIKE the Slow .25!
In the HW98 and HW95L.
They hit the same target with the same accuracy at 35 yards. But beyond, why use extra force for a larger caliber to be spat out the barrel when a nice HW98 .177 is around......
And if the .177 needs more velocity and whack just get a Huntsman from Daystate!
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I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177.
Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right? How far can you get during that one second time in which the bullet will drop 5 m? Doesn't matter if it's .177 or .25 if it goes 1000m during that one second. Or am I missing something?
I have a .25 that shoots just as fast as my .177. So 7.4 grain .177 pellet going at 1025 FPS will have the same approximate flight path as .25 at that same speed. But I expect the .25 would perform better at distance because of its higher mass and greater inertia.
As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces.
I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same velocities.
The " .177 has a flatter trajectory " is old news from back in the day when the only power plant was springers, nowadays it means nothing since you have PCPs that will shoot any caliber as fast as a .177 can travel.
Some will still bring that argument up once in awhile, but today it's completely worthless :)
I appreciate Nomadic Pirate because he is my PCP man!
I have seen the same rifle (HW98) shoot .177 10.33gr Kaiser Rangemaster Sovereign pellets to the same point of accuracy as my Daystate Huntsman .177 PCP. Offhand I'm just as accurate with a PCP as a springer (any springer I still have!). Someone once said the chronograph and the readings mean nothing (Hector). I understand now!
A .20 HW98 is about the most efficient machine HW can make for it, and Hector can take some parts held at a time when Diana and Lothar Walther were going partners into the D54 .20 (there were 30 of these; I think more are possibly available and ready for Hector to assemble and accurize).
We are here in a not worthless argument or discussion. We just report what we do with our things on this site.
I see you are all PCP'd out and NEED a MEDIUM .177 springer to change your mind.
Get the HW98 .177 and END IT!
You will probably sell off your PCPS.
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Can your Ford Prius replace your 4x4 truck at the farm ? :) :) LOL
Can an HW98 .177 with a Hawke and ZR mounts replace your PCPs?
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These type or discussions crack me up. Next it will be; "Can a Springer Replace All". ;)
I believe it can.
But it is my insight after starting with a springer .177 in 1968 and feeling an HW98 .177 or HW95 .177 (yes I still have THAT rifle with OPEN SIGHTS) is the end of it.
I like the Daystate Huntsman to remind me how easy the HW98 .177 is compared to IT.
The PCP is overrated by FAR in this discussion as the "power" that "ends" it.
It's the consistency and accuracy and longevity of the rifle that matters. PCPs are good for 10 years or less. Springers last forever.
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This is what I was thinking- kept seeing those posts and it was making me wonder what was going on.
Mr. P what is going on here keeps coming up and I have to figure a way to replace old archetypes with real facts.
My facts are limited to offhand shooting.
I can tell you I am deadlier with the HS .20 D54 than ANY other rifle made today. It was made to fit my body and eyes and weight and strength which just happened to fit Hector's own .20 D54 he sent me to shoot and send back to him.
Before I sent it back I asked if I could buy it as it is and he wasn't going to do that because history with that rifle was made by him.
So the next thing was to get exactly what HE had including the 3-10X Traditions Black Powder scope with the "Day of the Jackal" crosswires seen in the movie with Edward Fox (not Bruce Willis--that Jackal movie is NOTHING compared to "The Day of the Jackal" and this sort of essing and effing b is done repeatedly by Hollywood or some person who thinks he's hollywood).
Thing is the machine Hector sent me was a challenge to master. I hated the sidelever from the beginning feeling it was awkward and unnatural to cock.
But now I know if I had to kill something I'd take the D54 .20 using 16 grain JSB Diablo Heavies. Whether at 20 yards or 60.
All the other air rifles by HW or Daystate I own fall a bit short of this rifle.
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Can your Ford Prius replace your 4x4 truck at the farm ? :) :) LOL
so true !
And can a Tack hammer drive in a 16 penny nail ?
I'm surprised at you!
Do you have a D54 .20 Hector Special?
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And finally to add is my own judgment if the .177 can replace all.
I remember every post from nced.
He was sort of a burr up my arse when I joined the forum but I took him seriously from the start and started working with HW95s in all calibers because of him.
I had thought the R1 or HW80 was the "end of it" but in time I saw I did not need super fast or super powerful but rather consistency in offhand shooting for myself.
Ed Canoles is RIGHT as far as everything I have seen with my own air rifles.
You only need the .177 in the HW95 to get all you would need out of a pellet rifle.
PCPs are for the ones who can't shoot their powder firearms around where they live so they resort to PCP.
I sold a PCP Daystate Huntsman to a soldier before going to his post in Oahu in Light Infantry.
He reported back he was "killing pigs" with it and that was the end of it.
That was an OLD Huntsman with rotary wheel like Savage had for the model 99 in .250.
It was TOO powerful for me at the time in Fort Huachuca as I preferred the Eliminators I had in .20, .22, and .25 (and the .25 is still here and operating with its Weaver V16).
More time went by and more air rifles came on board including the Black Widow from FX in .22.
But the PCP type rifle NEEDS more than just an arm cock (like a break barrel HW) to keep pressurized. It's too much hassle for me. I have a brand new Daystate Huntsman Regal XL .177 I shoot weekly by shooting up all the air after reloading again! It just is not as easy to shoot this thing offhand as an HW98. The HW95 .177 with open sights is the prize rifle for cheap cost.
The HW98 .177 costs more, but the cost covers the extra time and money you'd use to "sight in" ANY other springer offhand or benched.
They say get a good scope to really know what's happening with your rifle.
I say get a good rifle first and then add a scope that is capable of taking recoil--and in the springer realm no scope is capable of lasting so use the ZR mounts for sure to SAVE your scope!
In the .177 my HW98 and HW95 are the best.
In the .20 I'd have to get one of those 30 Walther/Diana rifles left at the plant and have Hector build it using another Traditions Black Powder Scope in the ZR mounts low.
In fact, I am thinking I won't wait to order another one. I'll order it now and get it to shoot the LIGHT .20s like his!
But he is a busy man and I respect the time he spends working for others as he does.
When Hector has time I will order another D54 .20 by Diana/Walther.
Hector, do you have the parts for building another with another Traditions scope?
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Newsflash !!!!!
All of you, and I mean everybody that spent money and time collecting these wonderful machines of various calibers, stashing all kinds of pellets and bullets, getting the moulds to make your own ammo,
.....Time to sell everything and buy yourself a Weirach .177 springer, I'll assure you it will cover all your shooting needs better then any other platform or caliber for plinking, target, hunting, long distance shooting.
Please see the light this gun will be superior and will replace and some everything you have at the moment ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL ;D ;D
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I am of the opinion that you can effectively kill anything with anything if you manipulate the situation to your advantage.
A bear with a wooden stick, an elephant with a rock, a Buffalo with a cliff.
A .177 can do the job just fine if you use it right.
That old adage comes to mind, “beware the man with one gun, he knows how to use it.”
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Newsflash !!!!!
All of you, and I mean everybody that spent money and time collecting these wonderful machines of various calibers, stashing all kinds of pellets and bullets, getting the moulds to make your own ammo,
.....Time to sell everything and buy yourself a Weirach .177 springer, I'll assure you it will cover all your shooting needs better then any other platform or caliber for plinking, target, hunting, long distance shooting.
Please see the light this gun will be superior and will replace and some everything you have at the moment ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL ;D ;D
LOL.....I disagree because evidently SOME shooters NEED "powder burner power airguns"! :o
Hummm......airgun power limits for a few different countries unless a specific government exclusion is licensed.........
Note: fpe = Foot Pounds Energy, fps = Feet Per Second
AUSTRIA - No restrictions in fpe but limit on caliber (FAC req for .25 and above)
AUSTRALIA- FAC required for everything and anything.
BELGIUM - No restrictions on rifles
BRAZIL - No restrictions
BULGARIA - No restrictions
CANADA - 500 fps limit without a PAL
CYPRUS - .177 only (No information on energy levels at this time)
CZECH REPUBLIC - 12 fpe (16 Joules)
DENMARK - No restrictions, but soon will have restrictions imposed due a change in the legislation.
ESTONIA - No limits in .177, .22 and larger cal FAC required. No hunting with air gun
FINLAND -There is no muzzle restrictions but anything over .25 calibers requires a license. No hunting with air rifles and all air rifles can be shot in your own garden so long as it is safe .
FRANCE - 20 Joules (15 fpe). Airgun hunting is banned except for rats.
GERMANY - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules)
GREECE - No power or Calibre restriction, Silencers and Scopes are banned by law. Hunting is not allowed.
HOLLAND - No restrictions - NO look a like's
HONG KONG - Max power of 2 Joules without an FAC
HUNGARY - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules)
ITALY - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules) must be over 18 to buy, over 10 to shoot it with presence of a parent; >6 fpe you need a f.a.c. and you've to declare the purchase to the police. NO Hunting.
JAPAN - Airguns firing metallic projectiles are considered firearms and require a license for specified use
LATVIA - 12 Joules
LITHUANIA - 7.5 Joules (NO hunting allowed)
LUXEMBOURG - FAC required for everything and anything.
MALTA - FAC required for everything and anything.
NEW ZEALAND - PCPs require Firearms License
NORTHERN IRELAND & EIRE - Airguns or CO2 guns that are in excess of one (1) Joule (0.737 ft/lbf) require to be held on an FAC.
NORWAY - No restrictions
PHILIPPINES - No restrictions but all airguns must be registered at the local police office. No license required (formality)
POLAND - 12.5 fpe (17 Joules) (NO hunting allowed) >17 Joules allowed if gun is registered with police (Formality)
PORTUGAL - .177 or .22 velocity of 1181 fps Hunting not allowed
ROMANIA - FAC needed for everything
RUSSIA - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules) (Unsure of this one)
SLOVAK REPUBLIC - 11 fpe (15 Joules)
SLOVENIA -4.5mm power limit 200m/s, for 5.5 it is 20 joule and below 200m/s and for 6.35 it is 20 joule. Hunting forbidden, silencers forbidden.
SOUTH AFRICA - Below .22 No restrictions on power. .22 and above 7.5J No hunting with airguns, but pest control allowed, no shooting in built up areas. (exceptions for Big Bore when having a hunting license - hunting on larger game)
SWITZERLAND - Over 18 to purchase. Illegal to hunt with an air rifle. No power limit .
SPAIN - 18 fpe (24.5 Joules)
SWEDEN - 7.5 fpe (10 Joules) also maximum velocity of 200m/s. The same for rifles and pistols. Semi or full auto airguns: 3 Joules
TURKEY - No restrictions
UNITED KINGDOM - 12 fpe (16 Joules)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - No restrictions (Except New Jersey, Delaware and Michigan) Also numerous restrictions when within City Limits, varies state to state
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Newsflash !!!!!
All of you, and I mean everybody that spent money and time collecting these wonderful machines of various calibers, stashing all kinds of pellets and bullets, getting the moulds to make your own ammo,
.....Time to sell everything and buy yourself a Weirach .177 springer, I'll assure you it will cover all your shooting needs better then any other platform or caliber for plinking, target, hunting, long distance shooting.
Please see the light this gun will be superior and will replace and some everything you have at the moment ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL ;D ;D
LOL.....I disagree because evidently SOME shooters NEED "powder burner power airguns"! :o
Hummm......airgun power limits for a few different countries unless a specific government exclusion is licensed.........
Note: fpe = Foot Pounds Energy, fps = Feet Per Second
AUSTRIA - No restrictions in fpe but limit on caliber (FAC req for .25 and above)
AUSTRALIA- FAC required for everything and anything.
BELGIUM - No restrictions on rifles
BRAZIL - No restrictions
BULGARIA - No restrictions
CANADA - 500 fps limit without a PAL
CYPRUS - .177 only (No information on energy levels at this time)
CZECH REPUBLIC - 12 fpe (16 Joules)
DENMARK - No restrictions, but soon will have restrictions imposed due a change in the legislation.
ESTONIA - No limits in .177, .22 and larger cal FAC required. No hunting with air gun
FINLAND -There is no muzzle restrictions but anything over .25 calibers requires a license. No hunting with air rifles and all air rifles can be shot in your own garden so long as it is safe .
FRANCE - 20 Joules (15 fpe). Airgun hunting is banned except for rats.
GERMANY - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules)
GREECE - No power or Calibre restriction, Silencers and Scopes are banned by law. Hunting is not allowed.
HOLLAND - No restrictions - NO look a like's
HONG KONG - Max power of 2 Joules without an FAC
HUNGARY - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules)
ITALY - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules) must be over 18 to buy, over 10 to shoot it with presence of a parent; >6 fpe you need a f.a.c. and you've to declare the purchase to the police. NO Hunting.
JAPAN - Airguns firing metallic projectiles are considered firearms and require a license for specified use
LATVIA - 12 Joules
LITHUANIA - 7.5 Joules (NO hunting allowed)
LUXEMBOURG - FAC required for everything and anything.
MALTA - FAC required for everything and anything.
NEW ZEALAND - PCPs require Firearms License
NORTHERN IRELAND & EIRE - Airguns or CO2 guns that are in excess of one (1) Joule (0.737 ft/lbf) require to be held on an FAC.
NORWAY - No restrictions
PHILIPPINES - No restrictions but all airguns must be registered at the local police office. No license required (formality)
POLAND - 12.5 fpe (17 Joules) (NO hunting allowed) >17 Joules allowed if gun is registered with police (Formality)
PORTUGAL - .177 or .22 velocity of 1181 fps Hunting not allowed
ROMANIA - FAC needed for everything
RUSSIA - 6 fpe (7.5 Joules) (Unsure of this one)
SLOVAK REPUBLIC - 11 fpe (15 Joules)
SLOVENIA -4.5mm power limit 200m/s, for 5.5 it is 20 joule and below 200m/s and for 6.35 it is 20 joule. Hunting forbidden, silencers forbidden.
SOUTH AFRICA - Below .22 No restrictions on power. .22 and above 7.5J No hunting with airguns, but pest control allowed, no shooting in built up areas. (exceptions for Big Bore when having a hunting license - hunting on larger game)
SWITZERLAND - Over 18 to purchase. Illegal to hunt with an air rifle. No power limit .
SPAIN - 18 fpe (24.5 Joules)
SWEDEN - 7.5 fpe (10 Joules) also maximum velocity of 200m/s. The same for rifles and pistols. Semi or full auto airguns: 3 Joules
TURKEY - No restrictions
UNITED KINGDOM - 12 fpe (16 Joules)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - No restrictions (Except New Jersey, Delaware and Michigan) Also numerous restrictions when within City Limits, varies state to state
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Newsflash!
I have TWO rifles I will buy:
Another Hector Special in D54 by Lothar Walther to shoot LITE 20s like HIS!
Another HW98 .22.
For now I am going for the first first!
And all other air rifles in any configuration will melt away from the PLASMA created by a D54 .20 Hector Special.
And I nominated HIM for GTA as Man of the Year!
Everything he touches is like what King Midas did.
And the .22 can wait!
I want the .20 NOW! By Hector.
If nobody else wants to dive into the armory of .20 LW barrels with a D54 I'll be the next!
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Newsflash !!!!!
All of you, and I mean everybody that spent money and time collecting these wonderful machines of various calibers, stashing all kinds of pellets and bullets, getting the moulds to make your own ammo,
.....Time to sell everything and buy yourself a Weirach .177 springer, I'll assure you it will cover all your shooting needs better then any other platform or caliber for plinking, target, hunting, long distance shooting.
Please see the light this gun will be superior and will replace and some everything you have at the moment ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL ;D ;D
Too funny ... agree with you Manny that I should sell all the Spring guns I own and stay with PCP ...LOL Ha Ha !!!
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If the .177 does it all for you - fine. Is it the replacement for all other calibers? NOOOOO!!!!!! Not by a long shot for the rest of us. I only have .22s. Is my choice the best? For me, yes. For others, maybe, maybe not.
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I like the lowly .177. For actual airgun things it's a fine caliber. I own three .22s and hardly shoot either of them.
Hunting, targets, whatever the .177 works fine and is my preference.
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Do kind of agree with motorhead/Scott...faster is not something springers can do as well as PCP's.
Springers have many other qualites that are worth exploring...power deson't have to be one of them.
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I have a super sweet, professionally tuned, vortek 10.5 FPE .177,
Love the gun, super accurate and easy to shoot, I hardly never shoot it because where I live now it's always to windy and those little pellets fly all over the place,......no matter how much you love a .177 springer the limitations are real, the segment of the spectrum you can cover is very limited,
So no, it cannot replace all,....not even close.
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Do kind of agree with motorhead/Scott...faster is not something springers can do as well as PCP's.
Springers have many other qualites that are worth exploring...power deson't have to be one of them.
I like that. Well put.
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I like .177 best because I shoot targets only at less than 30 yards mostly
When my fingers get too stiff to load .177, then I will change to .22.
I actually like shooting BBs at pop cans.
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I used a .177 springer with Crossman pellets in Washoe Valley year round where wind is common in 1968 through 1976.
I think the wind argument about the .177 is dicey to say the least.
I've owned .17 Remingtons and .220 Swifts with .22-250s and now have the .17 Hornet in the Czech 527.
There is the fact the bigger calibers in the wind need more power to stay in line.
You can shoot a .35 Whelen into brush and your bullet will miss the deer behind the brush because the bullet was in fact deflected by something as light as wind.
No NOMAD!
You do NOT have an HW98 .177 and your "tuned" gun means nothing to me in this arena.
Send me back to HI when I was 5 years old on Oahu and those winds then meant nothing compared to Washoe Valley Nevada between Reno and Carson City. I think you need a 98 old Pirate!
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The short and unequivocally correct answer is NO.
Sometimes bigger is better.
Sometimes bigger essential.
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So, size does matter? ;D
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When my fingers get too stiff to load .177, then I will change to .22.
My stubby fingers have already reached that point. Hence the reason I only buy .22s!
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I like .177 but I find getting pellets local that I like hard to find. Mine need a pretty heavy pellet to shoot well. I could "mail order" anything I guess.
I like the Kodiak Match pellets, but my local guy doesn't carry them on the shelf anymore.
But my .22's all like the cheap crossman pellets I can get anywhere.
I do use mine most often for small game and pest control. I just find the .22 does a better job on the tree rats.
Any other caliber would just make getting pellets a chore..
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Can the .177 replace all? Hmm.
I do enjoy my .22 cal rifles but I also probably enjoy my .177 better, maybe ... kinda...?
No! I like them equally, but for different reasons. I only have .177 and .22 so I can't speak of the other calibers. What I have read is the .20 is the best of both worlds. I wonder why it didn't catch on like the other two?
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Nope.... although it may be a replace all for a specific shooter.
Depends on what you do with your airguns.
Pretty sure I wouldn't go into a tank battle with a .22lr rifle.
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Can the .177 replace all? Hmm.
I do enjoy my .22 cal rifles but I also probably enjoy my .177 better, maybe ... kinda...?
No! I like them equally, but for different reasons. I only have .177 and .22 so I can't speak of the other calibers. What I have read is the .20 is the best of both worlds. I wonder why it didn't catch on like the other two?
The .20 is also the worst of both worlds. Not as fast and flat as .177, and not the energy of a .22.
Just depends on which side of the coin you look at i reckon? That's how I've always seen it anyways. Probably a fine caliber like all the rest. If you can find pellets......alright I'm out, lol ;D
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No, not even close. I own 1 .177 and 2 .22 airguns, 4 rimfire and 2 centerfire rifles.
To begin with the D34 was used for pest and non native birds. On my third spring now, and use it for fun shooting with friends n family.
I installed a Maccari soft spring and everyone enjoys how easy to cock and accurate it is.
My Benjamin Trail NP .22 has taken yard pesting as IMHO .22 can dispatch large pest birds, varmints and groundhogs better than .177¿ 🎯🇺🇸😶
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I don't understand the "flat trajectory" expectation for the caliber .177.
Caliber doesn't matter it's all about speed and gravity right? How far can you get during that one second time in which the bullet will drop 5 m? Doesn't matter if it's .177 or .25 if it goes 1000m during that one second. Or am I missing something?
I have a .25 that shoots just as fast as my .177. So 7.4 grain .177 pellet going at 1025 FPS will have the same approximate flight path as .25 at that same speed. But I expect the .25 would perform better at distance because of its higher mass and greater inertia.
As far as I can figure, .177 should have worse performance at any velocity compared to larger calibers because the .177 will me more susceptible to external forces.
I guess what I interpret this to mean is that for most people it has been easy and cheap to get a fast .177 and not as easy to get a gun that can shoot heavier projectiles at those same velocities.
It refers to the pellet shot from the same power plant.
A springer in 177 has a higher velocity than the same springer in 22.
Gary
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I used a .177 springer with Crossman pellets in Washoe Valley year round where wind is common in 1968 through 1976.
I think the wind argument about the .177 is dicey to say the least.
I've owned .17 Remingtons and .220 Swifts with .22-250s and now have the .17 Hornet in the Czech 527.
There is the fact the bigger calibers in the wind need more power to stay in line.
You can shoot a .35 Whelen into brush and your bullet will miss the deer behind the brush because the bullet was in fact deflected by something as light as wind.
No NOMAD!
You do NOT have an HW98 .177 and your "tuned" gun means nothing to me in this arena.
Send me back to HI when I was 5 years old on Oahu and those winds then meant nothing compared to Washoe Valley Nevada between Reno and Carson City. I think you need a 98 old Pirate!
Wow you had a springer that could hit the broad side of a barn even in a Washoe Zepher :o :o ;) with the crosman trash cans :o :o :o Back then I never knew anyone who could get any accuracy past 10 yards at all with them no matter what rifle the were sent out of... even the daisy wadcutters did better... It was not till 1992 that the Crosman Premiers came out... Same year they bought Benji/Sheridan...
Now me back then late 60s early 70s... I went(parents took me) to Mark Fore and Strike and the Sportsman to get the green tin Benji pellets: only places we found that had them... and even in a light wind the .22 always out shot the .177... once the afternoon wind kicked up in Washoe Valley you might as well put the air rifles away and just go cat-fishing in Washoe lake...which is what I did (south end by the trees)... Sometimes would go swimming at the pool by Bowers mansion...
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(https://i.imgur.com/zR06wRD.jpg)
Can this beat horse be put to bed yet .... YAWN !!!
LOL
Scott
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Sorry it just brought back more than a few good memories... The Sportsman was run by two brothers Chet and Link Piazzo... They had a hunting and fishing T.V. show called The Sportsman's Trails... when I was about 11 years old they let me put a fly rod (my first), fly tying kit, some hackles and such on layaway knowing it would take me a good 6 months or so to pay it off... They were one of the really good things about the Reno of my youth... well loved by almost all for who they just were... They were Icons... I really do not think they made much off the Benji pellets but made sure to keep them in stock...
Besides it got you to show a pic of you yawning.. ;) gotta love it.. ;)
just noticed spelled zephyr wrong...
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If me .. wrong end :o
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Scott are you sayin you have a nice azz also.. ;)
I bonded with Link a bit... he liked me and we talked some way back then... His real first name was Lincoln... just happens to be my middle name... he earned the Distinguished Flying Cross in WW2 flying a B52... sorry guys for the off topic just some good memories of some special to me(and others I am sure) folks...
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I would have to say no, it can’t be a replacement if 177 is all I have ever had. But I really skipped from BB straight to 22lr.
In the late 70’s I had a Crosman 760, but I mostly shot BBs through it. I had one white plastic box of pellets, never shot them all. Still have it with about a dozen pellets in it.
Not much has changed in my requirements nowadays, 177 will do everything I need. With that said, I ordered a 22 barrel for my HW95 because I want to try something different.
The Royal Post got my package off the island within one day! It was processed in Chicago on the 21st. So that means it will be found with bundles of missing mail under a bridge as so much Chicago mail does.
Maybe I will like 22? My 95 runs about 12-13fpe, which in 22 should be a very similar trajectory to my HW30 177. We’ll see, if it ever arrives.
But what I can’t get out of my head is a 25 springer, like a $60 refurb.
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Sorry it just brought back more than a few good memories... The Sportsman was run by two brothers Chet and Link Piazzo... They had a hunting and fishing T.V. show called The Sportsman's Trails... when I was about 11 years old they let me put a fly rod (my first), fly tying kit, some hackles and such on layaway knowing it would take me a good 6 months or so to pay it off... They were one of the really good things about the Reno of my youth... well loved by almost all for who they just were... They were Icons... I really do not think they made much off the Benji pellets but made sure to keep them in stock...
Besides it got you to show a pic of you yawning.. ;) gotta love it.. ;)
just noticed spelled zephyr wrong...
I used to go to Johnson's Sporting Goods around Vassar for things there as well as Mark Fore and Strike. I remember the bear they had on display! They had a bar too with a gun rack behind to ponder!
We lived on Susan Lee Circle next to the Rocking J ranch and the Flying ME ranch.
Yes in those days we had horses and cattle and that .177 springer by BSF was my only air rifle for years until a Sheridan and Benjamin .20 and .22.
Scott!
Ney to You! ( :D)
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All in Fun JOHN .... what a year !!!
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All in Fun JOHN .... what a year !!!
Do you still have that beard?
You know in the Army extra hair is frowned upon....... :D
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All in Fun JOHN .... what a year !!!
Do you still have that beard?
You know in the Army extra hair is frowned upon....... :D
As many friends sarcastically state ... Dear Santa, have a silver beard year round
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For hunting larger game than pest birds or small rodents.....
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Seems like if you are talking SAME power plant, and it isn't a magnum/PCP type rifle, then much of the issue with 177 can be overcome by a heavier pellet?
If I was going to buy a high-end PCP, I'd go 22. But I do own 22lr rifles too so I'm not into airguns enough to financially commit to the PCP hobby. Therefore, for lower to medium powered guns, it seems the 177 (w/ right weight pellet for the gun) becomes the proverbial .20cal and can provide the best of both worlds. If you have a 600-1000fps gun(s), the FPS drops substantially if same gun has to shoot 22 pellets. Some of my gas ram break barrels give virtually same energy in 177 as they do 22, but the 22 is slower. This becomes even more of an issue when you go down to Crosman 1322/1377 power...My stock Daisy 1977xs can do ~13fpe in 177 @ 10 pumps and my stock 1389G does less than 12fpe at 20 pumps.
It is all about the power plant...177 can "suffice" if you can use the right pellet with the right power plant...and in my area, there are many more 177 pellet choices locally available. But as stated above, I think beyond a certain amount of power, you can make a 22 a flat-enough shooting gun with more power. it would seem that once you get into PCP w/ no restrictions, the 177 would lose the advantage to 22 BECAUSE it moves super sonic. I'd probably prefer a barley sub-sonic 22 vs a super sonic 177. But an 800-1000 fps 177 (with the right pellet for the job) can do a lot if you are NOT hog hunting and you stay within a reasonable range...that is my impression anyway.
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I don't think so.. Even though I have been tuning a .177 AT44 long for Nick's slugs.. I believe a .22 would be the most versatile and better bc...
By the way my .177 AT44 long is throwing nick's slugs at 940 fps for the 15gr. and 1040fps on the 12.5 gr.. Now I need it to warm up at least to the 40's, so I can play at my range half a block away and adjust the fps for the best groups.....
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Nope.
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Newsflash !!!!!
All of you, and I mean everybody that spent money and time collecting these wonderful machines of various calibers, stashing all kinds of pellets and bullets, getting the moulds to make your own ammo,
.....Time to sell everything and buy yourself a Weirach .177 springer, I'll assure you it will cover all your shooting needs better then any other platform or caliber for plinking, target, hunting, long distance shooting.
Please see the light this gun will be superior and will replace and some everything you have at the moment ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL ;D ;D
LOOOOL ;D ;D ;D
No I won't...
Funny enough... I have SOLD all my Weihrauchs already (2x HW97k and 1x HW50s - all three in .177), yes I did !!! Really !!! Hahaha
I still have Hatsans, Diana's, CZ's and even an Industry Brand B3. And top of my list / next buy next year is your favorite Rex-P in .357 :P
If... And I said if..., I would buy a Weihrauch again, it would be a 95/98 - but in my favourite caliber: .22, and that caliber, imho, yes, could replace all. I think.
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Scott I love your facial hair I can't do that I look pretty prehistoric and no way presentable to the public.
I enjoy the Motorhead monicker for you!
Mine was (in the Army and ministry) Sky Pilot.