GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: Madeintheuk on October 18, 2020, 06:38:21 PM
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So, I’ve had my 460 for about 4 months now, and put about 500 rounds through it. That being said, I haven’t been able to get good groups out of it for the life of me.
There are 2 issues I’m having with it, firstly, the scope ran out of windage adjustment to the left, and still is off. I’ve tried 2 different scopes, different rings, turning rings around, etc. am I missing something?
Second, I can’t get over the recoil. I bought a magnum for the typical reason of “more power baby!” But I didn’t realize it kicked like a mule. Not to mention, cocking effort is rough, and I’m a big guy!!!
I think my grouping is suffering due to this, and I’m not good with repeating my hold.
Any tips to detune this thing, or tame it somehow. I know this thing can be accurate, but it just isn’t for me.
HELP!
I should also add, I want to hunt with this. I’m not much of a paper or plinking guy. Just use those to get me dialed in. I would love to take this thing out in the woods for a day of tree ratting , but I can’t trust being humane with it right now!
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Gonna need to know quite a few things before advice. I owned a d460 in 22 and put over 16k rounds through it. It was my only airgun at one point, it is a tack driver and a power house.
Have you done any work to yours? Tune kit? What scope are you running? What pellets? Ever cleaned the barrel? Whats the chrony numbers? Do you know how to lightly hold a springer? Adjusted the trigger to your preference?
Those are a few of the questions that need answering first and we can get to the bottom of it.
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Gonna need to know quite a few things before advice. I owned a d460 in 22 and put over 16k rounds through it. It was my only airgun at one point, it is a tack driver and a power house.
Have you done any work to yours? Tune kit? What scope are you running? What pellets? Ever cleaned the barrel? Whats the chrony numbers? Do you know how to lightly hold a springer? Adjusted the trigger to your preference?
Those are a few of the questions that need answering first and we can get to the bottom of it.
It’s a bone stock .22, including the trigger.the trigger however is really nice outta the box. I have used jsb 15.89, hades, cphp, jsb 18.1, and H&N hunter extreme 20g.
Scope is a vortex crossfire 2 with utg rings and utg drooped rail installed.
I don’t have a chrony, so no numbers for ya, and yes......I have shot many springers, but not magnum. I’ve tried heavy grip, light grip, artillery, bags, off hand, rested, you name it. I’ve tried it. I don’t usually post help on forums until I’ve exhausted my own knowledge. Which isn’t much, but enough to get started.
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Pellet choices are great, and I'd really stick with the jsb 15.89 or hades as that gun typically likes those weights/types.
If you haven't yet, clean that barrel. Especially if you never have and even more so after shooting those Crosman premiers. The patch worm kit is an excellent choice and very affordable.
Not having a chrony is shooting yourself in the foot(no pun intended) HIGHLY suggest investing in one. It can diagnose problems in a few shots. If you have a broken spring, bad piston or breech seal your velocity/extreme spreads will show it.
GET RID OF THAT SCOPE. If its not already trashed it will be soon by that gun. UTG 30MM tube is the way to go. The mount you have should be fine, as long as you have the stop pin in place.
I would also highly suggest a vortek pg3 kit. The stock springs in those get weak or break fast. The vortek kit transforms those guns. Then while your in there completely clean/de grease the chamber , debur the cocking slot and receiver holes. The 460 has a nice separate compression chamber(like most under levers) and the oem piston seals are not usually damaged and last a very long time. Ive found them to be the best performer for the Diana's.
There is alot more to go into, but a clean barrel, the right scope and a chrony are absolutely essential first.
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Pellet choices are great, and I'd really stick with the jsb 15.89 or hades as that gun typically likes those weights/types.
If you haven't yet, clean that barrel. Especially if you never have and even more so after shooting those Crosman premiers. The patch worm kit is an excellent choice and very affordable.
Not having a chrony is shooting yourself in the foot(no pun intended) HIGHLY suggest investing in one. It can diagnose problems in a few shots. If you have a broken spring, bad piston or breech seal your velocity/extreme spreads will show it.
GET RID OF THAT SCOPE. If its not already trashed it will be soon by that gun. UTG 30MM tube is the way to go. The mount you have should be fine, as long as you have the stop pin in place.
I would also highly suggest a vortek pg3 kit. The stock springs in those get weak or break fast. The vortek kit transforms those guns. Then while your in there completely clean/de grease the chamber , debur the cocking slot and receiver holes. The 460 has a nice separate compression chamber(like most under levers) and the oem piston seals are not usually damaged and last a very long time. Ive found them to be the best performer for the Diana's.
There is alot more to go into, but a clean barrel, the right scope and a chrony are absolutely essential first.
I will clean the barrel next. I have the patchworm kit already, I use it on my pcp’s.
As for the scope, I really like it, and I know for sure it’s not trashed. It still tracks true and is clear as day. I got this one because of vortex lifetime warranty, and talking to their rep about it definitely being MAGNUM springer rated.
I’ve been looking into tune kits. Even kits that detune it to help with the recoil. I really don’t need a magnum, I’m just a go big or go home guy, and it’s bit me in the @@@. I probably would have done better with a D34 or similar, but now I have it, so I’m going to try and make it work as much as I can before giving up and putting it in the classifieds.
Thanks for the idea. One of those things that always gets missed and yet is so obvious!!
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I had similar issues with my 460 as the OP, except that I've never had any airgun "kick like a mule". I've had some twelve gauge shotguns shooting slugs kick like a mule...I've had a .375 H&H Magnum kick like a mule...my Super Blackhawk kicks like a mule. But airguns...naw.
So what I did was send it off to Motorhead to detune it. It came back as a 'shoot all day' airgun. Very accurate, very smooth, I was happy as a little boy with a new toy!
So that's what I recommend. Could a guy do that himself? To a degree, sure. The other part of the equation is Scott's own ability to make custom parts and his unique knowledge, and that's why I trusted him with it.
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I had similar issues with my 460 as the OP, except that I've never had any airgun "kick like a mule". I've had some twelve gauge shotguns shooting slugs kick like a mule...I've had a .375 H&H Magnum kick like a mule...my Super Blackhawk kicks like a mule. But airguns...naw.
So what I did was send it off to Motorhead to detune it. It came back as a 'shoot all day' airgun. Very accurate, very smooth, I was happy as a little boy with a new toy!
So that's what I recommend. Could a guy do that himself? To a degree, sure. The other part of the equation is Scott's own ability to make custom parts and his unique knowledge, and that's why I trusted him with it.
The ‘kick like a mule’ point was to over exaggerate the amount of recoil this has as only being an airgun. By no means does it kick like my mossberg 590, and if it did, it would have been sent back immediately. Lol.
I have been in contact with some tuners that can detune it, but I guess my question is, at what cost $$ is it ok to send a $400 gun to a tuner to “fix” before it becomes ridiculous tI do so instead of selling it and getting something lower power and easier to shoot out of the box. If it’s stuff I can do myself, I’ll be more likely to keep it, than if I have to send it to someone to tame it to my liking.
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Yeah, Andy. If compared only to other air rifles I reckon the Mule thang is valid! We've chatted about this so I know that you are committed to the rifle! Get that sucker detuned...whether you do it yourself or have it done! You will LOVE it after you do that!
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Yeah, Andy. If compared only to other air rifles I reckon the Mule thang is valid! We've chatted about this so I know that you are committed to the rifle! Get that sucker detuned...whether you do it yourself or have it done! You will LOVE it after you do that!
I agree here, that gun de tuned to 18-20 ft lbs is an amazing shooter. Itll easily shoot a 16 grainer at 750 , be easy to cock and shoot.
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Scope mounts being used ?
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Scope mounts being used ?
Utg medium rings with utg drooper rail.
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I had similar issues with my 460 as the OP, except that I've never had any airgun "kick like a mule". I've had some twelve gauge shotguns shooting slugs kick like a mule...I've had a .375 H&H Magnum kick like a mule...my Super Blackhawk kicks like a mule. But airguns...naw.
So what I did was send it off to Motorhead to detune it. It came back as a 'shoot all day' airgun. Very accurate, very smooth, I was happy as a little boy with a new toy!
So that's what I recommend. Could a guy do that himself? To a degree, sure. The other part of the equation is Scott's own ability to make custom parts and his unique knowledge, and that's why I trusted him with it.
The ‘kick like a mule’ point was to over exaggerate the amount of recoil this has as only being an airgun. By no means does it kick like my mossberg 590, and if it did, it would have been sent back immediately. Lol.
I have been in contact with some tuners that can detune it, but I guess my question is, at what cost $$ is it ok to send a $400 gun to a tuner to “fix” before it becomes ridiculous tI do so instead of selling it and getting something lower power and easier to shoot out of the box. If it’s stuff I can do myself, I’ll be more likely to keep it, than if I have to send it to someone to tame it to my liking.
An airgun that you do not enjoy shooting is worthless! >:(
An airgun that you enjoy shooting is priceless! ;D
-Y
PS spend the money to get it tuned properly. ;)
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Andy,
The RWS 460, 22 is a fine rifle when it is working right. The CenterPoint Scope I'M using has been working flawlessly for about 4 years. I've had good success with JSB 14.35 & 15.89 ammo shooting from a bag with the gun resting on the balance point. I use the butt bag to stabilize the stock with my left hand on the butt bag to adjust the aim point. I use light pressure on the shoulder and concentrate on holding the aim after firing. 1/2" center to center groups are easy to come by. Your gun should easily shoot through 1/2" plywood if it is working properly. I am 79 years old, 195 lbs, and I am able to cock the gun all-day - You can do it too, just hang in there. I believe the 460, 22 has the power you need to hunt small/medium game.
Good Luck,
ar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExjvwTNlNCM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExjvwTNlNCM)
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I have heard many people tell me the same. I just don’t know if it’s me or the gun. I’m hoping to settle it down with a tune, and see if it helps. I shot it a bit today, and I was getting about 3/4 groups at 15yds. I know it is capable of better than that, but I think it’s me. The recoil screws me up every time. I even feel myself screwing the shot before the trigger is done doing it’s work. I know for sure a milder firing cycle will do wonders for it, but will a simple tune (not detuning) help the recoil at all?
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Also, I’m not planning on shooting this thing off bags. It’ll be out in the woods, so mostly free hand, or propped against a tree, or shooting sticks. If I can’t use it this way, the. It’s not the gun for me. I took it out the other day and missed every chipmunk I aimed at. Got a squirrel though. However I needed a follow up shot to put him down. I can’t trust it for hunting the way it shoots right now.
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First of all, you have to help the scope to be able to hold zero.
https://life.hawkeoptics.com/riflescope-alignment/
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Andy, the reality is that it could be both you and the gun. Now, one you can make mechanicaly near perfect, the other requires repetition.
Until you start chipping away at the variables( scope, seals, spring, screws tightened, clean barrel , shooter hold, trigger control etc) its almost impossible to know which part is causing the issue
purchase a chrony to start running numbers, that will tell you the health of the rifle right off the bat. Im also still suspect of that scope, but that is your call.
Clean that barrel, adjust that trigger to your liking and work on follow through with your trigger pull.
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The first question I would have is what are u wanting to hunt? and how far are u planning on shooting? Magnum spring guns require a lot technique and follow thru, along with what Josh has also mentioned, I have had several 460mags in .22cal, still have 1, its not my everyday shooter only because I do not need that kind of power unless I'm going after Ground Hog size critters @50yds and beyond, ;D
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The first question I would have is what are u wanting to hunt? and how far are u planning on shooting? Magnum spring guns require a lot technique and follow thru, along with what Josh has also mentioned, I have had several 460mags in .22cal, still have 1, its not my everyday shooter only because I do not need that kind of power unless I'm going after Ground Hog size critters @50yds and beyond, ;D
Well sir, you’ve hit the nail on the head there. That’s my Problem. When I bought this thing, I was a proponent of bigger is better. I won’t be using this gun for any farther than 50yds, and it’s mostly for squirrels, chipmunks, mice, and any other small rodent that becomes a pest in my back yard. I’m spoiled for longer ranges by using my fx wildcat in .25. That’s my go to fun usually, but lately I’ve decided to come back to springers for the ease of use, and lack of extra stuff I need to bring with me. If this is overkill for what I want, I’ll gladly put it in the classifieds for something more suitable. I was looking at d34’s and hw95’s to replace this with initially, but I wanted some input first on if I could time this down to my liking. I’m not looking for sub 12flbs, I’m looking for ballpark 16-18 for less recoil, and accuracy to 50yds less.
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I wil be watching this thread , I am having D460 for 3 years now shot 1500 or more but she still give that wild recoil n jerk distrubing everything and more over spoils the fun ...
I dismantled noticed the bent spring, breech seal was okay , uk forum was accessible then but not many have these there . So assembled back with re lube and same internals , added a sleev of a old X-ray film as I was not geting teflon sheets back then in lock down , no change ..
I even tried xs01 spring but she's loose on spring guide and the recoil was even harsh she was actualy jumping off my artillery hold :))
I love the rifle super accurate it's .177 doing around 840fps with 8.44 I don't think relubed n all might have increased any power .
Now am thinking of making a top hat using teflon rod and a teflon .5mm sheet sleec f I can get and see if it makes a difference
Cheers
Pravin
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Andy, let me say this to you, u do not need anymore then a 12ftlb rifle for what u are doing, if you like ur 460? pull out the spring and cut about 4 coils off of it! springs are cheap! $20 bucks if your not happy with the results! u can cut off all the coils u want as long as u leave enough so the spring has a tic of preload, if not u can add a few synthetic washers back inside the piston to space it back up, instead of selling the rifle try making it something u will like by taming it! If u still can't make friends with the gun then sell it! The only reason I still have a big magnum springer like my full power 460 in .22cal is because I cut my teeth yrs ago on these types of spring guns yrs ago and I know how to shoot them, But I prefer my 12ftlb and sub 12ftlb rifles for most of the shooting I do, I have no problems shooting a 12ftlb gun out to 50+yds in .22cal or other and shooting pest birds or rabbits even a squirrels with a head shot if your good enough to do so? But shooting these lowered powered guns makes it a lot easier to get the shot placement once u learn how to shoot them at these distances ;) ;D
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I totally agree with Mark ..
I dont mind taking the power down for my .177 D460 but she's already putting 840fps with 8.44 grn ... Am sharing fee pics , please let me know if the breech seal , spring piston seal looks okay .
Also the spring I have in my rifle is around 30 turns .. so how muany turns full power spring has ?
Cheers
Pravin
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IIRC, 32 or 34? coils ::)
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IIRC, 32 or 34? coils ::)
34 including the end flat ones ..
If stock is also 34 and am getting 820 840 fps in .177 is it degraded due to some issue or its normal for .177 D460 ?
Cheers
Pravin
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U could have a seal issue! How many shots on the spring? 8)
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U could have a seal issue! How many shots on the spring? 8)
Not much may be 1500 to 2000 ..
Do you mean piston seal or breech seal ? I did the tissue paper test and there is no leak from the breech area .
Cheers pravin
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Ur good I thought it was ur 460 was shooting that speed my bad ;D
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"There are 2 issues I’m having with it, firstly, the scope ran out of windage adjustment to the left, and still is off. I’ve tried 2 different scopes, different rings, turning rings around, etc. am I missing something?"
To me, the most puzzling part of your problem is the windage adjustment problem. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to line the scope up with the bore properly.
I would try to solve that problem first. You mention different scopes, different bases, etc. That suggests one of two things, the rail on the rifle itself is off kilter - unlikely! Or someone bent the barrel either accidentally or on purpose. Did you buy the rifle new in the box or used? Being dropped in shipping can cause damage that doesn't show up easily. I suggest taking the scope off and eye-balling down from the rail forward to see if the bore appears to line up with the scope mount. a good straight edge might help too.
Another problem could be assembly of the rings to the base. Some rings have a reversible clamp to allow use on the 11mm rail or on the 3/8" grooves in most US 22 rifles. It's easy to get the clamp piece wrong as there is not a big difference.
An earlier responder mentioned reading and using the Hawke Optic instructions. I read through them and they are very good. I always use a torque wrench for rings and bases and NEVER have any problems with them coming loose. I have three different ones but find the Wheeler FAT wrench adequate for all firearm uses.
Regarding hold, recoil, and general springer shooting issues. I started with a Chinese Walther Force 1000 - a fairly powerful rifle and could never get it to shoot consistently. I felt like I had to re-learn it everytime I shot it. Also two friends bought the Gamo's that promised 1400f/s. Neither could get them to shoot well for the same reason.
As a result of this, I bought a Diana/RWS 54 used. It has the "recoilless" sliding sledge system. It is not hold sensitive at all and the shooter has no felt recoil. You can forget the artillery hold or any other incantations for accurate shooting. Handle and shoot just like a PCP or any powder firearm. They are also in the magnum category and until the Diana ZR base was developed known as scope-killers. (I didn't have any problems with mine but bought ZR bases anyway.)
It is highly accurate, quite powerful, and just fine for vermin (over 400 chipmunks at last count and my brother who bought a 22 D54 at my recommendation has killed at least 27 woodchucks, several feral cats, oppossums, raccoons, etc off his front porch). Plenty enough for squirrels etc. I now have 2 (.177 and .20) both shooting around 17-18fpe. They can be tuned hotter but this is fine out to 50yds. Accuracy is great at 20yds average of 0.22" CTC for 20 5 shot groups. 50yds around 1" depending on the glare and wind. (I have vision issues that makes sunny days very difficult for me.) Right nowI am waiting for the new version the D54Pro in 22 caliber - hopefully by Christmas!!
If you get tired of playing with the 460, look at the 54.
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"There are 2 issues I’m having with it, firstly, the scope ran out of windage adjustment to the left, and still is off. I’ve tried 2 different scopes, different rings, turning rings around, etc. am I missing something?"
To me, the most puzzling part of your problem is the windage adjustment problem. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to line the scope up with the bore properly.
I would try to solve that problem first. You mention different scopes, different bases, etc. That suggests one of two things, the rail on the rifle itself is off kilter - unlikely! Or someone bent the barrel either accidentally or on purpose. Did you buy the rifle new in the box or used? Being dropped in shipping can cause damage that doesn't show up easily. I suggest taking the scope off and eye-balling down from the rail forward to see if the bore appears to line up with the scope mount. a good straight edge might help too.
Another problem could be assembly of the rings to the base. Some rings have a reversible clamp to allow use on the 11mm rail or on the 3/8" grooves in most US 22 rifles. It's easy to get the clamp piece wrong as there is not a big difference.
An earlier responder mentioned reading and using the Hawke Optic instructions. I read through them and they are very good. I always use a torque wrench for rings and bases and NEVER have any problems with them coming loose. I have three different ones but find the Wheeler FAT wrench adequate for all firearm uses.
Regarding hold, recoil, and general springer shooting issues. I started with a Chinese Walther Force 1000 - a fairly powerful rifle and could never get it to shoot consistently. I felt like I had to re-learn it everytime I shot it. Also two friends bought the Gamo's that promised 1400f/s. Neither could get them to shoot well for the same reason.
As a result of this, I bought a Diana/RWS 54 used. It has the "recoilless" sliding sledge system. It is not hold sensitive at all and the shooter has no felt recoil. You can forget the artillery hold or any other incantations for accurate shooting. Handle and shoot just like a PCP or any powder firearm. They are also in the magnum category and until the Diana ZR base was developed known as scope-killers. (I didn't have any problems with mine but bought ZR bases anyway.)
It is highly accurate, quite powerful, and just fine for vermin (over 400 chipmunks at last count and my brother who bought a 22 D54 at my recommendation has killed at least 27 woodchucks, several feral cats, oppossums, raccoons, etc off his front porch). Plenty enough for squirrels etc. I now have 2 (.177 and .20) both shooting around 17-18fpe. They can be tuned hotter but this is fine out to 50yds. Accuracy is great at 20yds average of 0.22" CTC for 20 5 shot groups. 50yds around 1" depending on the glare and wind. (I have vision issues that makes sunny days very difficult for me.) Right nowI am waiting for the new version the D54Pro in 22 caliber - hopefully by Christmas!!
If you get tired of playing with the 460, look at the 54.
I’ve had quite a few people recommend the d54 or 56 based on the sledge design, but my problem is their weight. I will not be using this from a bench, it’s going to be dragged through the woods with me, and shot offhand or balanced on trees and such.
The 460 is pushing it already in the weight department. Not to mention their tendency to kill scopes. I’m horrible with open sights past 35yds, and I’ll be shooting chipmunks which are even tougher with open sights....for me anyway. I may be at a point of just throwing in the towel, and getting something more designed for what I want. I’ve been looking at the beeman R9, or similar. Something not too heavy, medium power, and accurate.
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How far are u planning on shooting? ::)
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How far are u planning on shooting? ::)
Sub 50yds. Further than that, and I’m using my pcp’s.
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Just to let you know..
IF/WHEN you have a really trustable scope - AND - zeroed within its comfort zone..
There is an interesting Brazilian invention to help you aiming at the field
Although narrated in Portuguese, I think the images are enough (any doubts, be free to ask me)
youtube.com/watch?v=zuQ2DNccmqs
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Just to let you know..
IF/WHEN you have a really trustable scope - AND - zeroed within its comfort zone..
There is an interesting Brazilian invention to help you aiming at the field
Although narrated in Portuguese, I think the images are enough (any doubts, be free to ask me)
youtube.com/watch?v=zuQ2DNccmqs
Why is everyone so against the vortex crossfire? Am I missing something? I was told by them that it was magnum springer rated. They also have a no questions lifetime warranty. I figured it was a no brained. Great glass, easy to use. Not sure you can range with it, but it’s an all round nice Chinese scope. I would rather not spend $500 on a scope for a gun I will not use regularly, and the vortex checked all the boxes. If I’m wrong, and someone knows something about this scope that I don’t, please share!
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Vortex makes great stuff. the Crossfire is one of their cheapest ones. Step up a little in price gets you a MUCH better Vortex.
-Y
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I agree with you on the weight! Mine weigh just at 12pounds each. I don't do woods walking any more as I am a bit broken up and only see with one eye, depth perception is a mean woman (an aside, I typed b@@@ch and the spelling genie turned it into mean woman! rather than female dog!!! Political correctness in a computer!!!! Holy dog dung!!!!) and I don't need another broken neck - one was quite enough thank you! I shoot chipmunks out the kitchen window as I have a gigantic population in the woods behind my home!!
As for scopes, I had one Hawke that I sold when I upgraded to Sightrons. I used a Centerpoint on my D54 while I was deciding on a new one. Cheap scopes have been my choice for many rifles as I am basically a cheapskate!!!
I have nothing to say about the quality of your scope. Any scope should be usable until it breaks. MY puzzlement is on WHY the scope couldn't be properly zeroed. Hence my suggestion on checking things out for problems.
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Just a misunderstanding.. I was not blaming your current scope.
I was saying in general terms, because any scope may become unreliable when it stops holding zero. I have Sightron and Vortex Diamondback that reached the end of their lifespans.
Nowadays, when the inconsistency lasts several rounds, I do a 'scope test' to see if the scope is still able to hold zero (in the circumstances I need).
Regarding your current scope, it may be still fine, but it's essential that you find a way to keep its adjustments within the comfort zone when zeroing.
For example, you could stretch a line over the rifle to see if the barrel is horizontally misaligned.
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So I’m currently in talks with hector medina on what to do with my debacle, and I’m also dropping the scope this weekend, and I’m going to try some open sighted groups at 15yds to see if my scope is part of the issue. Thanks for all the help. I can come across as stubborn, and ignorant a lot, and I’m sorry. I truly appreciate all of you and the constructive ideas you have given me. I’m not willing to give up just yet (or maybe it’s just my bipolar getting the best of me). I will ty and update as I go along.
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The Crossfire is not a great choice for a stock 460. Eventually the 460 will kill the scope if it hasn't already. There are better choices for less money out there. Do stick with 30mm tube scopes, they are a plus for magnum guns (usually more resilient to recoil)
You have got to figure out the windage issue. Learn how to mechanically center a known good scope and group three shots. Doesn't have to be an expensive scope to do this, but it does have to be a properly working scope. Shooting from open sights won't determine if the barrel is bent left or right unless using a peep or similar sight mounted on the dovetail. Either of those two choices will tell you how far off the barrel is from centerline.
The 460 is not easy to cock, it is one of the hardest guns I have to cock. That is why I shoot at 700 fps with a weaker spring (. 22). It is however, one of my most accurate, even with reduced power. Reduced power also aids to scope life.
Good luck with your gun. A proper 460 is a fine gun but it is not for weak arms. I shoot mine from a bench but it is not a bench gun. It is really an offhand hunter in my humble opinion.