GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: mcoulter on September 24, 2020, 05:51:56 PM
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Confessional time.
I hardly ever shoot offhand or from anything OTHER than a bag or attached bipod with my PCPs. And when I do shoot offhand, it feels impossibly difficult. But I'd really like to get better at it! ::)
So I gotta start somewhere and sometime. I'm planning to post here each time I shoot as some motivation to spend at least half of my shooting away from the bag or attached bipod.
Here is today's shooting... Yesterday I had been testing a 25 yard zero with the 34 and JSB 8.4s so that seemed like as good of a place as any to begin.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dEULsE7UZhOxroRtuOnP6K7RQoJ-SOcxDS3qMg2MEj0BKtarM0kYsJTd8vUJsY7IGpinenpOVKKVFC4oyEO45yAIgmG9Yl8fLUPe0XLjuo7X1_rrHWIzqG5kvs5-vw5TxcukMzc9smSvJnzZf_Tw3juA=w800)
And here are my results at 25 yards. The left group was shot with the monopod. Center and right groups were from a seated position with one elbow supported on my leg.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eGoY6Ge-I1kyUp8rpZ_teT1Q1CGo9Kl91oWs4T5Q0EECLdz7vzZ11CHX6Ix8yaYNmJXx49yww6gZki_bGYaQ6E6DOHtkzjy0DO8HOeFLQd8NRE-mkE5rTXPctQzyBtpW34JlImMXSZDPzggk8orjWXRQ=w800)
These were all shot with the scope at 12x which (even with the monopod) was super wobbly and shaky feeling. At this distance I think 12x is working against me.
Next opportunity I'll be dialing the scope's magnification back and see how things work that way. I had great results with a 3x32 scope that I tested for Hector's blog (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/how-can-less-be-more (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/how-can-less-be-more)).
After shooting these I got it in my mind that I wanted to see how bad 60 yards would be using the monopod. Here 12x certainly was needed and a 3 mildot holdover was almost enough.
So I was wishing that I had done better at 25 but surprised at doing this well at 60... hmm. Till next time...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cVcdey_7YDZEnNSi39mvJoZjP7Uy9hNHUSFY-5k49ZvcND_Rv8CQ-XNHlak8DmT1gdZ0_dEI5HgAUrnTIuKChKUCRlAj_IfpKvQ1mMrMF-RxDaMVSidAG3DkSW-h9EEjMzAhnye2XJUwGL-JLwy1m32A=w800)
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Good for you for giving it a go! I took a 25 yard (off hand) shot at a squirrel at 25 yards today and pulled the shot. Braced against the the house (or tree) is a guaranteed head shot at 25-30 yards. Keep at it! You have my respect for trying it. I can relate to wobbly and shaky when doing off hand. Yes, turn the magnification down at closer range. I think you did very well!
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Matt, that's not terrible shooting at all is ur rifle tuned? ;D
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Thanks guys. Mark, I put a Vortek PG2 kit in this gun about 6 (or so) years ago. It's shooting pretty soft now at about 11.5 fpe.
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Have u adjusted the trigger? ::)
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In a roundabout way, yes, the trigger has been adjusted ;-) I bought the gun new in 2012 and sold it fall of 2019 and never touched the trigger. The person who bought the gun from me DID make some small adjustments and I'm VERY happy to say came back to me with a nicer trigger. (Thanks Al!)
Speaking of the trigger, it's very interested how I'm changing my trigger pull. I feel like I'm almost snapping the trigger back as I'm shooting from the monopod or off my knee. The luxury of a so-slow-you-don't-know-when-it's-gonna-realease pull does not feel right as I'm watching my POA drift around. I guess that's kind of normal?
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I try to be still, but I end up with a quicker press off hand like you describe. I try to anticipate my wobble so I snap as the cross hairs are on target.
4x or so is your friend.
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Matt, that's terrific on expanding your shooting horizons and welcome to the club from a gal who actually prefers shooting without a rest, now that I've been shooting offhand for so long. Have to say, you are off to a very good start. Nice shooting. Work your way up with the magnification and, as mentioned, start low and get comfortable with the whole concept. Shooting with a scope and no rest is definitely a work in progress.
I now use 9x and above on a regular basis, but it didn't happen, overnight. I prefer enough magnification to be able to keep the crosshairs oscillating within the size of the bull I'm using (obviously, I use more magnification as the distance increases when using the same size bull), rather than wandering outside the bull as happens when using lower magnifications.
The real key to offhand shooting is not some superhuman steadiness. That's a myth. You will always be working with a moving sight pattern, even when using iron sights, but you can learn to manage that movement. The key is learning to time your trigger technique to coincide with the crosshairs as the it moves into the center of the bullseye. A top notch trigger as on a Diana or HW or AA springer is a huge plus for this work. The old saw about not knowing when your trigger goes off, having it be a surprise when the gun goes off to be shooting, properly, does not apply here. You must know that trigger, intimately, and be in full control as to when it breaks. The trick is to work that trigger smoothly and calmly, but still do it with the right timing. Can't rush it, nor can you wait forever. When you feel your concentration ebbing, pull up, take a deep breath and try again.
A brief, almost zen like moment of relaxation and calm as the crosshair moves into the ten ring really and then following though to keep it there even as the gun recoils and the pellet leaves the barrel really helps. In fact, that follow through is an absolute must. When my follow through is not what it should be, I find myself dropping my shots low. Sure sign. The trick is to work that trigger smoothly and calmly, but still do it with the right timing.
Oh, yeah, whoever said that shooting is 90% mental must have been an offhand shooter, because I'd rate that 90% as a minimum. :)
One of my favorite ways to shoot without a rest is sitting on a bench, but otherwise supporting the gun only with my hands. It does lessen the fatigue factor, compared to standing and, make no mistake, the concentration needed to shoot without a rest with a scope is fatiguing. When you're feeling tired, take a break or come back, later, after a rest. Keeping shooting sessions short until you build up stamina is a good idea.
For me, weight of the gun, given my age and gender, is a big factor for this type of shooting. Some weight and forward balance is helpful for this type of shooting, but too much is a handicap for steadiness and the fatigue factor. I don't last very long when shooting scoped under levers with their weight, so my favorites are break barrels.
Lastly, I find the regular practice is needed to stay in top form. If I haven't been shooting for awhile, it takes time to regain that finesse needed to do my best the shooting without a rest. When shooting powder guns without a rest, dry fire practice without a rest really helps, but, of course, dry firing with a springer is a no no.
Sorry for the long post, but, hey, books have been written on this kind of shooting. Again, welcome to the club. Enjoy.
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What North Country Gal says is right on!
The only thing that I can add is start above your target and slowly come straight down. When on target release the trigger. If you start to wobble, start over and reset yourself.
Also, if standing, you need to find just the right spot to place you guide hand. Some people like to keep that elbow tucked tightly to their hip bone for stability.
Practice, practice, practice....
-Y
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My only contribution is Thank You because I am a bench shooting fool trying everything possible to remove myself as a variable.
It pains me to think of how bad I am at offhand but you motivated me to try.
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The bench proves the gun but standing proves the shooter...
Glad I'm not the only one going thru this. I've spent the last couple of years dragging my bench out whenever the urge to shoot came on (which is about daily in all honesty). Since I've got my R7, I find myself using the bench mainly for zeroing and longer distance shooting at my 50 yard target.
As has been said, magnification plays a very big role in amplifying the natural movement you'll see. I use the same targets at 25 yards as I do at 50 so I will halve my magnification at 25, this give me the same sight picture at 50. Now if I'm shooting the scoped R7 at 25, it wears a 2-7x Hawke Airmax, I use 2-4x. That gives me enough magnification to see the target clearly without too much wobble. I place the crosshair above the target, as I exhale the gun will drop. Once I get to the natural pause between breaths, the crosshairs should be very close to where I plan to squeeze the trigger, usually coming down right on top of the bull. The rest is up to me, as was mentioned knowing the trigger is a must for this as well as a good follow through. I alternate between standing and sitting on the steps at the end of the deck propping my elbow on my knee. I've also been trying different field target positions, I've never shot a match--I haven't found any within 100 miles of me--but would love to, seeing some of the groups people have shot from field target positions, either supported or unsupported, really makes me want to up my backyard game.
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Not bad at all for 25 yards! I have trouble even at ten! Now....this may guilt me into getting off my butt at the bench! Haha
Keep it up!
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Wow, there's so much good info in this thread already... Thanks everyone! I have to say that my brother-in-law has been a huge motivator for me in this regard. He's really into muzzle loading - to the point where he's building his own guns and is making his own projectiles. I'm hoping to be half a good of a shot with my airguns as he is with his muzzle loaders!
I love the idea of starting my hold above the target. I had been doing the exact opposite. If times allows today I'll give this a try at lower magnification ;D
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Wow, there's so much good info in this thread already... Thanks everyone! ......
I love the idea of starting my hold above the target. I had been doing the exact opposite. If times allows today I'll give this a try at lower magnification ;D
A few years ago, I was doing a fair amount of offhand shooting, and I bought a couple of red-dot sights for two target rifles. To me, that's the perfect solution for the "mag" problem.
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The bench proves the gun but standing proves the shooter...
Glad I'm not the only one going thru this. I've spent the last couple of years dragging my bench out whenever the urge to shoot came on (which is about daily in all honesty). Since I've got my R7, I find myself using the bench mainly for zeroing and longer distance shooting at my 50 yard target.
As has been said, magnification plays a very big role in amplifying the natural movement you'll see. I use the same targets at 25 yards as I do at 50 so I will halve my magnification at 25, this give me the same sight picture at 50. Now if I'm shooting the scoped R7 at 25, it wears a 2-7x Hawke Airmax, I use 2-4x. That gives me enough magnification to see the target clearly without too much wobble. I place the crosshair above the target, as I exhale the gun will drop. Once I get to the natural pause between breaths, the crosshairs should be very close to where I plan to squeeze the trigger, usually coming down right on top of the bull. The rest is up to me, as was mentioned knowing the trigger is a must for this as well as a good follow through. I alternate between standing and sitting on the steps at the end of the deck propping my elbow on my knee. I've also been trying different field target positions, I've never shot a match--I haven't found any within 100 miles of me--but would love to, seeing some of the groups people have shot from field target positions, either supported or unsupported, really makes me want to up my backyard game.
Well said, +1
My only comment is you do not have to wait until the natural pause between breaths. When you get on target, stop exhaling and hold you breath for a second. If I don't do this, My brain goes into oxigen starvation is I wait till I have exhalled all of my breath... ;D ;)
-Y
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Matt;
It's good that you are trying offhand. FT Matches are won/lost in the forced positions. MOST all other shots will be evenly caught by most shooters. So, mastering the offhand and kneeling positions is important.
Now, to the Monopod: If you can sit on the ground, get a bumbag. The hard boating cushion do NOT provide the levelling/stability that is needed. If your butt is not flat (mine isn't!), you need something to put an even pressure and make that part of your anatomy a STABLE platform. Now, that you are on the ground, your knee will be about right where the gun needs to be. Brace the monopod to the knee so as to create a Tri-pod between your legs and the monopod. It CAN be quite stable. If you cannot manage stability, get a bi-pod and try again.
Do remember that spring guns are called "bouncers" for a reason. Changing the angle of the pod-bipod to the gun WILL change your POI. So try to be consistent there. You can also use the bipod to hold your hand and then your hand to hold the gun, it's all about adapting the position to YOUR anatomy.
On the offhand: YOU AIM WITH YOUR FEET. If you are not in your Natural Shooting Position, you will not hit the bullseye. FIND what is your NSP: Get into position, close your eyes, bring the gun up, open your eyes and see where the gun is aiming at. If the gun is not aiming at the bullseye, correct your feet position. ALWAYS MOVE YOUR REAR FOOT to do this. Once you have found where your NSP is, memorize it. And repeat the whole exercise a 1,000 times. You should be able to get to your NSP on the first try.
IF you wobble vertically, your non-trigger elbow is on the wrong spot. If you wobble horizontally, your trigger elbow is too low.
Use ONLY BONES to support the rifle's weight. Muscles should be as relaxed as possible.
On the scope: Work up in the magnification. Challenge yourself little by little. In the end you should be comfortable shooting at the highest magnification your Division/Class allows, or is practical for the scope you are using. EG: Hunters shoot at 16X, Open/WFTF will shoot at 25X to 40X. Personally, I cannot shoot at higher than 29X. NOr do I feel the need to. At present I am shooting at 29X because my scope is SFP and I do NOT want to mess with the mag ring. Once I get the FFP version, I will gladly shoot the offhand games at around 18X.
CONCENTRATE on the reticle, not the target. Define in your mind a POINT to aim at, DO NOT AIM AT THE WHOLE TARGET, CHOOSE A POINT. And then concentrate your eyes on the reticle's point you need. TRUST YOUR TRIGGER FINGER MORE THAN YOUR BRAIN. Squeeze slowly and gently and trust your finger to learn where it needs to go.
It is ALWAYS a WIP (Work in Progress), don't get discouraged, keep on trying. You have taken the first step in the Confucian 10,000 miles journey, enjoy the journey. If necessary change the game: from bullseye, to silhouette, to FT, to spinners. Just have fun!
;-)
HM
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I like to use the rifle sling wrapped around my forward arm to steady my aim.
The length of the sling can be adjusted to allow the artillery hold or the conventional hold.
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Just a quick post here with some lunchtime shooting... Started badly ended better. My wife and I joined an indoor climbing gym this year and we did some climbing / bouldering this morning. I didn't know what to expect regarding how tired my shoulders and arms are and fatigue while shooting. When I saw how badly my 1st shots were even using a monopod, I was about to write the day off and go back inside. I'm glad that I didn't!
Target 1: scope on 3x then 4x then 6x for the right two:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fYZjCAgbYkfvEyKN4uupma39kc6e_qqa2JvZdNt_-Sg5BZ8hxMD3jVjMpzzyN6Ce37ssW1jc0iz6TfmSsq3I0xt4I3v1o7ORppeEATXJbiHW9uO8Kgb3_rIMC5AMdDB8hvv-MKXjWqTQkW9yAdjerhOg=w900)
Target 2: scope 6x for all, switched from JSB 8.4s to Superdomes, on the right target I switched from a tight hold with both elbows rested to a much looser hold with only the gun supporting elbow rested on my knee. My supporting hand was at the balance point right under the front of the scope:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dhJZXEt5TXrG69gRk453bg7XuQs0T8VrSNOS_kZs05XZDQXMzPwysYUWLTK62AQmKXNMZDJGFJi1NgK0HljDNKF7KhUQqch8cgYzi6v9OGkuIytRuPvd3ITMVZ9WjqSwQekxzmz1pnqO_n64mJOBMzYA=w900)
Target 3: scope at 6x still, trying to fine-tune the hold I did on the right target above... felt much easier to keep steady than any tight hold. All groups are 5-shots :-)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eJ1b-tN_0gn9JoxY6Zfy2OxIDvgk-4LzTB7G40wVy25Je60wJGq5wbEiHcdJBNFnJTXoIqdk7FbNgHApxeoMGXIGNGwQfeuGn6WhFg6jDhol8Ob2gF83jxzJmcJSLZLyNamZoXmA_hcOEn_l_NhkBirQ=w900)
Hector, thanks for your post above. I will circle back on this later, but I found myself sitting cross-legged (can I call it Indian style still?) with one foot under my leg which my elbow is resting on. So I will have to think about aiming with my feet in this position. And Yes, I found my trigger finger doing it's own thing. Maybe that's not a bad thing?
EDIT... just adding a pretty pic :-)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f7XbbKFUWDwxwP1IdronAZHUoaUlw2yR_Ytjlw7PvNM-EqG-2URbc9bJ3t31ocVXDV4Kli9hpF4TWGCCrOjUWlIOVpFDe3aSB8-ewWq95xx_NQcSUpWhqcWrqpogFW4ae1W0bO1ki_k5WbeSg9INVzmA=w581-h888-no?authuser=0)
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Not bad at all for 25 yards! I have trouble even at ten! Now....this may guilt me into getting off my butt at the bench! Haha
Keep it up!
Me too. If the puppy is good, it's on the paper. ;) ;) ;)
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"TRUST YOUR TRIGGER FINGER MORE THAN YOUR BRAIN"
some of the best shooting advice I ever got, and got it from Hector shooting the Silhouette 10m postal match he was the "match director" for. One thing I'll add about NSP, is that if you dont achieve that with the first effort, lower the gun, adjust then try it again. I went so far as to put some duct tape on the garage floor where my feet should be. Helped shorten the learning curve for NSP/NPOA, but you still need to do your part.
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Wow, I am amazed at the excellent advice this post has generated!!
I recently retired from the army where I was a Designated Marksman, Master Gunner (Light and Heavy) and M4 Instructor.
North Country Gals advice was awesome as was Hectors.
What Hector called Natural Shooting Position, sounded a lot like what we called Natural Point of Aim.
To use/practice the Natural Point of Aim, When your sight is on target, close your eyes for a second or two then open them. If your Point of Aim (sight picture) has changed drastically, you are using your muscles too much to force the sight picture (sights on target). It is preferred to use the skeleton structure to hold the weapon sight on target. Kind of hard to explain/correct the nuances of each shooting position without "Eye Balling" your form. Maybe Google some air gun shooting competitions and closely inspect the shooters form? Everyone's body is different, so slight (very slight) modifications to the position are fine. You just need to experiment to find what works well for you.
My small tip for you is to remember that the first casualty of holding your breath too long is your eye sight. If you hold your breath for too long, your eyesight will become slightly blurred. (This will happen before muscle fatigue.) If this happens, set the weapon down for a minute or two and chill. Then get back at it.
One last, if you Google Army PRT Preparation Drills, try them before your shooting session. It really helps loosen you up. I still do them every morning, cause if I don't, I am a "hurtin unit."
Above all, keep it fun!!
With Regards
Ray
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One thing I like to do to help with steadiness is to keep an Unloaded air rifle handy in the house, occasionally grab it and aim at a spot on the wall for at least 30 seconds. It goes without saying that all safety precautions are taken.
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Yep, there's a ton of great advice here so far!
Maybe I should have seen this coming, but I think the offhand plinking that I have been doing since picking up a used Beeman P1 is carrying over to help shooting the 34 offhand. It's been a number of weeks since I shot the 34, but I was way more steady shooting this yesterday afternoon than I would have thought!
These groups were shot sitting on the ground with my supporting elbow on my knee again. Like in my recent P1 thread, I looking to finish up a tin of Superdome pellets. Here are three groups of 10-shots. I shot them from left to right. So what felt cool was how I felt after finishing the last group. I actually felt like I could shoot another 30 (if time allowed, which it didn't). I also generally felt more stable. I had a nice string of 5 shots in that right target that were nice and tight... it also feels easier to make that brain to trigger connection that Hector mentioned earlier.
Oh, I should also mention that I was adjusting my POA on that last group.
Fun stuff :-)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fzCYxVBA3Z844S6Ej6-mcy7pJXKL5551z4B7QjZBzFuU4zvq6pIyGLWe-NeqDk0RFIyDyyUFgn1jU5hv_Sch7DOjSH09ug93gZgd7DirwJuvaHCWUQ3GQuIzAtFBgDQGHFGkJjMHib67nr8s_Vs9NtiQ=w900)
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I do hope to try a field target match someday so one of these looked like a fun "investment" ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3czPiMO6apdFNBc3ZcTLWez70joNdq9in1eAJjaIwjKpI7kDNNYsWRn70jwgLHjfOjuLcH1RWJ-teLP9c9inlUoXiaWwfxnPCZGgQpLnNnZIKCKcgbzsfd_tVNsRFt5gt4vwOgJZlaqz0wJGFoXo9i9tA=w900)
I finally was able get out and give it a try today. I've been doing my offhand practice at 25 yards so that's where I put the rat. I have no idea which hit plate to use at any given distance, so I started out with the largest hole. I got it to drop four out of five shots.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f5o4j8D7EMADHVt6QLrVIQO9WYQBuDEnaYM-2ScEs3XMeWgInKRbiHYtehb3XB9ZKoQMkbeCRshU4IPpIX8rHKvPc2EaS9By_ttZjKnaLyiZ-8oLYz9Rfu8apMuLKIW0j407_QKCOwm7rBzRetATLMPA=w900)
So I then dropped in the next smaller hole and ouch. I only dropped it three out of ten times. Yup, I'm gonna need some a lot more practice!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fxHGxP6SlYtzlofo5sLqXg9uG4WM49dipKYRkGjuRw-3AvgcZmN38PWSM0W5QWSpB4n-Ml19P4of9j5EOgpMeQJwQJid9I-FThkbolV7WQYS6a23g65BVq6GPvuRbarfrkwFf2Tmuvh7NflKMi9aEk6Q=w900)
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OK, I'm having fun with this now!
During the last couple of days of lunch time practice I have been hitting the kill zone 2-3 times out of 10 shots (25 yards and KZ of about 24-25mm). Today things clicked... after bouncing back and forth between the rat and paper target (making small scope adjustments along the way), I finished up with hitting the KZ 8 out of 10 times :o
What really seemed to make a difference was focusing on supporting the rifle with my skeleton AND really limiting how my trigger hand interacted with the rifle. I ended up almost with only my trigger hand's fingertips making contact with the gun. My non-trigger hand was palm up under the balance point of the gun and my cheek firmly planted on the leather cheek rest. I really hope I can replicate this again in the future ;)
Today's pics:
A picture-perfect fall day!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d_MU8Fun7HYcJwIWWBG5duh8gRVX_8pG7qiX_dWHV_la9j3D-47Yveujvo3_arF2BrkQuGrVDHMHh12HNDLQUkpE7lb5ANHwOx1yEVomuOEZihW5RVU4H6f8eRUoPYTcoqSD1MC8BAMCpEESMQUMGNHg=w900)
Rat at the end of shooting.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eMFkblRGY8nKpEGisz95zeuRznX9yBNPh6U8EWGQ--MoC_Bav2MGOtM6e-zz_6gRgV5fvzfW9urwBLdS4_RbYjftxZn2Z-62QedySg7FSR91Q8i8ReEhIkBufIdgYeG-zeXPyfa-Ovw5B2aaftJIP9zA=w900)
Rat and paper target
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fkxnnJukMyAifafvmtnA0hJ6MxRrRQyBv98t9kdgnSs2yODnrZ0Ni0yEMiIYaeSoFzty9r7MrNHfnTKrI6VEtoYpjImeMxtgBDGRDHOeqjbyBvWy5UwDFi5GY1gG53X6Jycoz3fWX1t9Lqc_Xpam7WVQ=w900)
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NICE!
You now need to buy grass courts marking paint.
And re-paint your target every day.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Nicely, done. Those FTT targets are fun. We have a crow, boar and a rat.
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I've been following this, some golden nuggets of knowledge here. 8/10 on the rat is something to be proud of. Where you still shooting the Superdomes or back to the 8.4 JSBs? Doing it with the iconic D34 ;).
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Thanks everyone 🙂
Hector, why is court paint better than your average can of spray paint?
Sorry Mike I neglected to mention that these were shot with Air Arms 8.4 which are the 34's favorite pellets👍
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Thanks everyone 🙂
Hector, why is court paint better than your average can of spray paint?
Sorry Mike I neglected to mention that these were shot with Air Arms 8.4 which are the 34's favorite pellets👍
Grass Marking paint is flexible and the pellet dimple becomes just a dimple.
If you use any enamel type paint the pellet dimple creates a "shatter crater" and while the impact is more visible from afar for the first few shots, it becomes a mess after and you need to repaint the target more often.
IDEALLY, you should strip the OEM paint, then use white grass marking paint as a base and then use one of the standard WFTF colors and approved combinations(Yellow, Light Blue, White and Black):
"Target colours
In the World Field Target Championship the allowed target colours are:
Yellow faceplates with black hit-zones, or
Black faceplates with yellow hit-zones, or
White faceplates with black hit-zones, or
Black faceplates with white hit-zones, or
Light blue faceplates with white hit-zones"
If you want to get creative/artistic, you can always add some fur / streaks with a brush after that with normal paint. But as a training device, it's better to get used to non-detailed looking targets (it's actually a bit more difficult to rangefind when there is no detailed painting).
Good luck and keep us posted!
HM
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Great targets for the air gun shooter. https://www.ebay.com/itm/250-Pcs-Stickers-Shooting-Targets-Diameter-7-5Cm-Reactive-Splatter-Target-Stick/402364650139?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/250-Pcs-Stickers-Shooting-Targets-Diameter-7-5Cm-Reactive-Splatter-Target-Stick/402364650139?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
(https://i.imgur.com/XMzd5kbl.jpg)
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Sorry, Dave.
I am SURE those targets are great, but NOTHING beats hearing the steel "clank" and the feeling you get when you see the rat falling back "flat out".
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/winning-gesture-emoticon-excited-happy-emoticon-raising-his-clenches-fists-making-winning-celebrating-gesture-126885956.jpg)
LOL!
HM
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Good point on the splatter targets, Dave, We keep a good supply on hand when we want to shoot paper. I do like the way the black bull lights up, so to speak, when hit.
Still, shooting metal is at least 90% of our shooting in our 30 yard backyard AG range. To borrow a phrase from my bicycling world, "steel is real." :)
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Good point on the splatter targets, Dave, We keep a good supply on hand when we want to shoot paper. I do like the way the black bull lights up, so to speak, when hit.
Still, shooting metal is at least 90% of our shooting in our 30 yard backyard AG range. To borrow a phrase from my bicycling world, "steel is real." :)
Steel maybe real, but all decent bicycles are either carbon, titanium or aluminium. ;D
Remember, in FT competitions only one or 2 lanes are a different shooting position. Usually, either off hand or kneeling. :o
-Y
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Good point on the splatter targets, Dave, We keep a good supply on hand when we want to shoot paper. I do like the way the black bull lights up, so to speak, when hit.
Still, shooting metal is at least 90% of our shooting in our 30 yard backyard AG range. To borrow a phrase from my bicycling world, "steel is real." :)
Steel maybe real, but all decent bicycles are either carbon, titanium or aluminium. ;D
Remember, in FT competitions only one or 2 lanes are a different shooting position. Usually, either off hand or kneeling. :o
-Y
Yogi;
That would depend on the Club/rules they are using.
Under current WFTF rules, for every 50 shots, there should be no more than 10 shots that are designated positions. USUALLY, MD's will split these 10 shots into 6 kneeling and 4 standing, or viceversa.
Over a 3 day Match of 150 shots, there would be 30 shots to be taken in designated positions.
Kneeling shots CAN be taken offhand, and sometimes, the target placement is so close to the gronud/obstacles that some "free position" shots need to be taken kneeling.
Besides, when you are getting to the top 1/3 of the competition, places are usually decided by the positional shots. Most everyone else will get pretty much the same score on the "free position" shots.
FT is a great all-around challenge. That's what makes it so much fun!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I trust it's ok to divert a bit of the conversation into Field Target... If not, I can probably post some of these questions in the FT gate.
First, I measured the kill zone holes and here's what I found them to be:
Small = 15mm / .57 in
Medium = 25mm / .95 in
Large = 40mm / 1.5 in
So now I am trying to confirm what distances I should set this target at when using these different size restrictors. I was on AGN the other day and was pointed to the AAFTA manual for this info:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e20Yi6ejrozbeVcPo4DapLPq143zJGjbpmG2AiasWW3HK7Qd4cMmj5N4UxN8BZkwlhXv2wxGvmgmKXlgqGcpE-BHtjin-ajwNYWCy6qx5XkFiZM8EcbsJfY7UCQJag4-7I0qIZrKI1q4VDZea6Z07_Ig=w900)
And I read *somewhere* (sorry, I can't find the source...) that a decent starting point for practicing is in the 20s on the Troyer scale. So applying this to the sizes I have on this target, this puts the rat target at these distances with the different size restrictors:
https://www.aafta.org/uploads/1/2/7/6/127666620/rifle_troyer.pdf (https://www.aafta.org/uploads/1/2/7/6/127666620/rifle_troyer.pdf)
Small @ 13-18 yards
Medium @ 20-29 yards
Large @ 30-44 yards
Getting back to the rule book, can I assume free position is exactly what it sounds like? Is the most common free position shooting from a seated position? Also what does the "+ Ext Up/Down" reference mean?
And bringing this back to the German in this gate ;-) I assume that if my 34 is still sub-12 fpe, it would fit nicely in the WFTF Division.
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US Army:
B. Breathe
R. Relax
A. Aim
S. Take up slack
S. Squeeze
I have incorporated into my form exhaling half a breath after taking up slack.
It works for me.. ;)
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I too needed to get up and shoot off hand. I practiced this weekend, 200 shots or so at the 10m targets.
This is tonight’s effort, much improved over yesterday. I was doing well but then just had to throw those two low.
HW30 scope on 4x. Interestingly I shoot much better on 4x vs 2 or 3x.
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I trust it's ok to divert a bit of the conversation into Field Target... If not, I can probably post some of these questions in the FT gate.
First, I measured the kill zone holes and here's what I found them to be:
Small = 15mm / .57 in
Medium = 25mm / .95 in
Large = 40mm / 1.5 in
So now I am trying to confirm what distances I should set this target at when using these different size restrictors. I was on AGN the other day and was pointed to the AAFTA manual for this info:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e20Yi6ejrozbeVcPo4DapLPq143zJGjbpmG2AiasWW3HK7Qd4cMmj5N4UxN8BZkwlhXv2wxGvmgmKXlgqGcpE-BHtjin-ajwNYWCy6qx5XkFiZM8EcbsJfY7UCQJag4-7I0qIZrKI1q4VDZea6Z07_Ig=w900)
And I read *somewhere* (sorry, I can't find the source...) that a decent starting point for practicing is in the 20s on the Troyer scale. So applying this to the sizes I have on this target, this puts the rat target at these distances with the different size restrictors:
https://www.aafta.org/uploads/1/2/7/6/127666620/rifle_troyer.pdf (https://www.aafta.org/uploads/1/2/7/6/127666620/rifle_troyer.pdf)
Small @ 13-18 yards
Medium @ 20-29 yards
Large @ 30-44 yards
Getting back to the rule book, can I assume free position is exactly what it sounds like? Is the most common free position shooting from a seated position? Also what does the "+ Ext Up/Down" reference mean?
And bringing this back to the German in this gate ;-) I assume that if my 34 is still sub-12 fpe, it would fit nicely in the WFTF Division.
Hello Matt!
Since this applies to any practice regime, I would say there is no grounds to move the post, but that is just my impression.
Your target complies with the three sizes that are allowed under WFTF rules. 3 Sizes simplify the lives of MD's and also make it easy for manufacturers to lower their costs. At present, you can buy a British made target cheaper than a medium end American one. Of course, American made targets need to live up to 0 ft-lbs, while the WFTF ones can get away with being rated for 12 ft-lbs.
Under WFTF rules, the max distances are also simplified:
Targets (Max distance) 15mm 25mm 40mm
Non-positional targets 20 metres 35 metres 50 metres
Positional targets Not allowed 20 metres 40 metres
So, you can see that the whole thing pretty matches up regardless of what rulebook you are using.
The most common "free position" is seating because it gives you a better view with the added height, compared to Prone. As I said, depending on your anatomy, you MAY be forced to shoot a "free position" target from the kneeling position because the targets are set for the three divisions, and Hunter Division enjoys even more height due to the use of stools/buckets/sticks.
"Ex Up-Dn" or other wording to that effect means targets placed on trees or in ravines. The angle adds a complication because the shape of the hole is no longer round.
Yes, your 34, if shooting at under 12 ft-lbs can shoot in the "WFTF Piston" Division/Class, if there are not enough shooters in that division/class, the MD can assimilate different classes.
SMART MD's assimilate all the piston shooters together, but some MD's are devious enough to assimilate WFTF classes together (PCP's and Pistons), so it really depends if the MD has any particular class to favour by keeping the WFTF Piston guys out.
;-)
Keep well and keep us posted!
HM
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Thank you very much for that information Hector. It's really quite fun trying to wrap my mind around the "ins-and-outs" of this discipline!
I feel very fortunate these recent weeks being able to get outside during my lunch break and shoot the 34 (and P1) as regularly as I have. This practice in combination with taking some time here to log thoughts about what worked (or perhaps what didn't) feels like it's helping reinforce some shooting basics I never really worked on before.
Today's observations...
- I realized that I've left my scope set at 9x (it's a 3-12 scope). After a little more practice I will bump it up to 12x and see how that affects my accuracy and ability to hold steady
- One quality I have always enjoyed about this 34 is that I can just pick it up and get some reasonably accurate shots from it.
- I figured that I would not be able to quite repeat my previous 8 out of 10 hits at this 25 yard distance. Today I twice got 6 out of 10 hits. This feels like it'll be more of the "norm" for me.
- I've not done anything with the target yet so the kill zone paddle is getting pretty hard to see so I do need to get some proper field marking paint (can I use the KZ being hard to see for my excuse for not shooting as well?!?!)
- The trigger on the 34 is pretty darn good (thanks Al for sending it back better than was it was originally!), but I can now definitely see how a shorter second stage would help with accuracy when shooting off hand. In my last paper target I started playing a bit with adding what I'll call preload to the trigger (just putting a teeny amount of *extra* pressure on the 2nd stage) to effectively shorten the pull as I am steadying myself on target. Time will tell if this is good or bad. I may just be better off with Hector's "TRUST YOUR TRIGGER FINGER MORE THAN YOUR BRAIN" suggestion.
- I'm still trying to minimize what my trigger HAND is doing. I'm keeping as light of a trigger hand on the rifle as possible. I'm also trying to pull backwards as directly as possible, watch for the pellet in flight as the sear releases and see it through to where it hits the target. Like what I felt when shooting the P1, every one-in-while my brain zeros in on where it think the pellet will hit. It's kind of a fun, slow motion feeling that does not happen often, but it makes me feel more "in the zone" when it does happen!
The rat target is pretty beat up so there wasn't much to learn from taking pics of it... But here's the paper target I also shot. I warmed up with the two left groups, then shot the rat (6/10), shot 5 on paper, another ratting session (6/10) and then finished with playing with that trigger preload thing on the right target:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fK7T0yEcbqnrsKBPAXG4IP_J79mna_gVefJZI_UMNhPZXnC7Od0Ktsi8TnWXkoqqYa1C60qVu1VxXdYksKontqI3OCgajuaqiDpNMFKd80GrEuC9ec3QK7vLds-VWjocK8i7P7crwWvnjy4HFtoBz-aA=w900)
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I too needed to get up and shoot off hand. I practiced this weekend, 200 shots or so at the 10m targets.
This is tonight’s effort, much improved over yesterday. I was doing well but then just had to throw those two low.
HW30 scope on 4x. Interestingly I shoot much better on 4x vs 2 or 3x.
200 shots is a good deal of practice!
I think when you find a hobby where doing something 200 times in a row is a treat, you've found where the right place to be in 8)
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Much more erratic tonight, 50-70 shots, some off hand, some from the bench.
All bad.
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Matt;
A good deal of trigger control reflexes can be gained by shooting pistol, but you need to shoot it at real targets (10 M ISSF targets). You can always OVERLAY one of these formal targets to one of the "Diagnostic" targets and see where things are going astray.
Once you have shot at least 40 rounds through the pistol, return to the rifle, and try different hand positions.
The 34's stock is NOT a match stock by any means, so "pulling the trigger straight back" is a figment of the imagination/wishful thinking.
In a sporter stock, the best pull/trigger squeeze is when you can have a "swept back" trigger setting (possible with the T06), and you press the index towards the most convenient point between ball at the base of your thumb and the tip of your thumb. SOMEWHERE in there, there is a spot that allows to concentrate of pushing the trigger UP AND TO THE REAR, in such a way that you are squeezing the stock/rear closing plate/safety into the trigger. THAT is the straight line that you need to find and it will depend on your hand size and preferred position.
If I am not making too much sense, let me know and I will try to create something to clarify this.
Once you attain this position, you will realize that the long first stage is absolutely NO problem.
The other aspect is that the T06 can be adjusted to act almost as a single set trigger in the sense that you can locate the "hump" where the trigger blade will not return anymore and the slightest of added pressure will let the shot go.
For SOME shooters this works well in the offhand position.
It's a journey, so enjoy it!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Just popping in to say thanks for all the excellent information here!! I have learned many things just from this thread and I'm already a better shot than before :D.
Thanks to all who posted their tips,
Jesse
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NICE!
You now need to buy grass courts marking paint.
And re-paint your target every day.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Life has become busy, but I did pick up a couple of cans of marking paint. And I am glad that I did :D It covers very well. FWIW, I chose to not refinish the face after my first shots:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3czk92aGenXBXjNLW1gEbKjIoXI0443uLAmc8-A_ytDItlVyiY2OxfMQCRTozegveENWI8LnzyQ11npRsJkt8d7WIKSbcr6HFqvit9JKXPlTeS-735SUe-AFcf6f9j2uEq8xNn5xJiXryf7DxM-UH_gew=w900)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ed6PSqojJk0SO-Y9BJ9gsmXeGipSdcURmj4wTKCx74oDAPcaaQI72lDR1YKLWDoyDt5o8GqoNLj5WO4eSGAX4TXgxwOju8FNHL746iYgipeFHm8JSvzoac0ehMycxi0QcwCRxpeIpXRTXV29nALeVRVg=w900)
The only shooting I have done was on a cold (40f) afternoon. I'm still hovering around 5-6 hits out of 10 shots at 25 yards.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fEOUCWNcUXbL5h5htGzKbti1T1jaBFx9iGz_62ZQ0o629Qfc23kFGmS7VOJfBQ-LGGFmnZgPkxvVVDEUTQg6dw2EKWPZY3dF8juSG2wm0hmnhMqkGbE9jQ818URLHEN139NQGh3CioHM2JI1Xm9Bm9lA=w900)
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Life has become busy, but I did pick up a couple of cans of marking paint. And I am glad that I did :D It covers very well. FWIW, I chose to not refinish the face after my first shots:
The only shooting I have done was on a cold (40f) afternoon. I'm still hovering around 5-6 hits out of 10 shots at 25 yards.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fEOUCWNcUXbL5h5htGzKbti1T1jaBFx9iGz_62ZQ0o629Qfc23kFGmS7VOJfBQ-LGGFmnZgPkxvVVDEUTQg6dw2EKWPZY3dF8juSG2wm0hmnhMqkGbE9jQ818URLHEN139NQGh3CioHM2JI1Xm9Bm9lA=w900)
Matt,
If you analyze your "track" across the target, it clearly shows that you are pushing with your offhand when you try to release the shot.
So, you need to do a LOT of dry-fire exercises. And see/"call" where the sight were when you the trigger went "click".
It is also possible that you are ANTICIPATING the shot and therefore the offhand pushes the gun up and left.
Another possibility is that you are trying to shoot "on the fly", as the gun flies past the target.
Calm down, breathe two or three times before even raising the gun to address a shot, make sure you ARE getting into your NSP/NPA, and then TRUST your TRIGGER FINGER.
You are about to develop a bad habit, so stop and correct the SHAPE of the group before it gets real bad. Groups should be round. Otherwise, you are not doing things properly.
HTH and keep us posted!
HM
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I truly appreciate the feedback on this Hector. Yes, I definitely felt "out of the groove" when shooting those previous shots. It was cold and I was tight and stiff. (OK, I'm done with excuses!)
I got out for a few shots today and saw the exact same pattern forming when shooting paper. I tried some different seated positions and am coming back to how I'm supporting the rifle being a problem for me. I googled field target seated position and didn't find any examples of how have been supporting the rifle. I have primarily been sitting cross legged with my supporting arm's elbow essentially on my knee. This felt good in that I used little (if any) muscle to support the gun, but my knee and elbow are boney and in a way it was like shooting off a monopod where it was hard to stabilize the gun laterally.
I found some good pics for positions and tried a few just sitting in my basement. This one feels the best. I'll be testing this one this weekend...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Posizione_libera.jpg)
(random internet pic, not mine)
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I truly appreciate the feedback on this Hector. Yes, I definitely felt "out of the groove" when shooting those previous shots. It was cold and I was tight and stiff. (OK, I'm done with excuses!)
I got out for a few shots today and saw the exact same pattern forming when shooting paper. I tried some different seated positions and am coming back to how I'm supporting the rifle being a problem for me. I googled field target seated position and didn't find any examples of how have been supporting the rifle. I have primarily been sitting cross legged with my supporting arm's elbow essentially on my knee. This felt good in that I used little (if any) muscle to support the gun, but my knee and elbow are boney and in a way it was like shooting off a monopod where it was hard to stabilize the gun laterally.
I found some good pics for positions and tried a few just sitting in my basement. This one feels the best. I'll be testing this one this weekend...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Posizione_libera.jpg)
(random internet pic, not mine)
That's a good position there! Wish I could curl my legs and arms up like that around my air rifle for steadier shots!
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That is a great field shooting position. I used it back in the day, but now I'd have to call an EMT to help me back up. :)