GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Boolit and Pellet Casting => Topic started by: scion19801 on May 20, 2020, 01:33:28 PM
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So i think i have come up with a good culling process. Cast the rounds, using magnifier and good light - check for defects (flashing, wrinkles, anything that don't look perfect), then roll test (listen for perfect smoothness like rolling a marble or ball bearing. any clicking is a no go). Then weigh them to see where the batch dropped at.
Now for the issues:
1: seeing alot of wrinkles in the skirts. ( My guess is Mold is too cold?)
2: seeing an odd wrinkle pattern almost circular right at the ring (halfway) in the head, slightly behind it, and very repeatable in my last casting session. (Not sure what this was about. Again possibly Lead to cold?)
3: Was seeing some that had very fine whiskers. (From what i've heard this should be the Ideal sport for things.)
4: My lead is freezing within 2 sec on the sprue. ( Again think my lead temp is too cold.)
5: After the casting session i checked the mold over and pulled it all apart to make sure things were ok. Did find a slight piece of lead that must have gotten done in one of the corners (maybe a 1/2 mm in diameter) that could have been causing some issues. Everything else looked good.
6: After getting a handful that passed the culling test. Some shoot properly, and still get some that want to spiral. My weigh out on the shortest pin gave me a .8 grain spread from 28.4 - 29.2 grains. This has been my largest spread yet in weight. But i was checking every 4 mold drops to make sure that the pins were set correctly to eliminate flashing on the skirts. I did toss my first 20 directly back to the pot after cast, knowing the mold needed to get a more consistent temp built in. then after seeing they were dropping ok, did my run.
My casting cadence is mold on its side. Pull up a the dipper touch the mold flip upwards to pressure pour. hold for a second or so, then quickly tip the dipper away. then repeat for the second cavity. set dipper back in the pot. wait a 4 count (sprue has already froze by this point) and toss the previous sprue back to the pot. tap the sprue open, tap the mold handles and drop the pellets on a towel. reach down and use the sprue (to keep the mold blocks parallel to each other) with a little wigle to close the mold. twist back upright, with the sprue coming closed and back over the pot to start the process again.
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Now for the issues:
1: seeing alot of wrinkles in the skirts. ( My guess is Mold is too cold?)
Yes, along with melt temp being low. Get a thermometer...it will help a bunch with quality casting
2: seeing an odd wrinkle pattern almost circular right at the ring (halfway) in the head, slightly behind it, and very repeatable in my last casting session. (Not sure what this was about. Again possibly Lead to cold?)
Again cold mold and melt.
3: Was seeing some that had very fine whiskers. (From what i've heard this should be the Ideal sport for things.)
I always see whiskers (not flash) as a sign that temps are good and I am getting good mold fill. A little tumbling in a tub with the other pellets typically will break off the whiskers.
4: My lead is freezing within 2 sec on the sprue. ( Again think my lead temp is too cold.)
That is pretty quick.
My casting cadence is mold on its side. Pull up a the dipper touch the mold flip upwards to pressure pour. hold for a second or so, then quickly tip the dipper away. then repeat for the second cavity. set dipper back in the pot. wait a 4 count (sprue has already froze by this point) and toss the previous sprue back to the pot. tap the sprue open, tap the mold handles and drop the pellets on a towel. reach down and use the sprue (to keep the mold blocks parallel to each other) with a little wigle to close the mold. twist back upright, with the sprue coming closed and back over the pot to start the process again.
I found that throwing sprues back in the pot really causes bad temperature fluctuations, driving your casting temps down. I actually have furnaces. One is a bottom pour and then just a plain furnace. I throw sprues into the regular furnace and melt before being recharged into the bottom pour pot. It helps my production by not having to wait for the main furnace to come back up to temp after recharging, and helps quality because I am able to keep a steady temp in the bottom pour furnace I am casting from.
Control your temps and that controls your casting.
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1, 2, 4 = lead + mould to cold
Lead +2-3% tin = in the 720+F range for optimum fill out.
If the total amount of pellets in the mould is under 200-250 grains then you pretty much need a hotplate to lay the mould on for several seconds during each casting cycle. Pour and then rest mould on hotplate until sprue has solidified. As you gain confidense and experience you will pick up casting speed and a hotplate will be void.
3 Finns equals to much puddle pressure, have never had problems with it unless i put the mould directly up to the spout while pouring. I have cast litterally tons of lead for black powder weapons (ie soft) over the past 35+ years.
OH and mould preheat!!!
Perfect bullets from gitgo is a result of proper mould preheat. No need to use good lead and time just to cast the mould up to temp. Hotplate ;-)
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I don't know what casting pot you are using, or whether it is PID controlled or not. If it is just being controlled by a mechanical rheostat, the temps are changing as the material quantity declines, not good.
I had this issue with my Lee Pro 4 20lb. pot. I built a DIY PID controller for it and now my temps stay consistent regardless of material quantity.
Here is a link to my build along with the how-to videos to build it. It's really easy to build:
PID controller build for your casting pot with instruction videos (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=158723.msg155780761#msg155780761)
One mistake I was making even with the PID controller in place was adding back in my sprue cuts right away during my cast. Don't do that, wait until you are getting low and need to actually refill the lead supply.
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was able to get a pic of the cast circle defects at the ring of the head. Seem to be getting this alot. I know my temps were higher this time and i had alot of whiskers this pour and my spru puddles was taking about a four count to solidify. And it doesn't appear to be just one cavity or the other seems both do it, got way more bad than good.
Need to get a temp gauge and rule out lead temp. I have a 2 quart cast iron pot about half full and, and using an old propane stove top high BTU burner.
edit:
What is a safe temp range for the 2 cavity brass mold to not excced? Don't want it to/or overheat it.
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was able to get a pic of the cast circle defects at the ring of the head. Seem to be getting this alot. I know my temps were higher this time and i had alot of whiskers this pour and my spru puddles was taking about a four count to solidify. And it doesn't appear to be just one cavity or the other seems both do it, got way more bad than good.
Need to get a temp gauge and rule out lead temp. I have a 2 quart cast iron pot about half full and, and using an old propane stove top high BTU burner.
edit:
What is a safe temp range for the 2 cavity brass mold to not exceed? Don't want it to/or overheat it.
Ok, I see. I like my lead between 825° to 850°. I get good fill out, and casts drop good out of the mould. The mould needs to be hot. I use a hot plate and mould thermometer to keep track of the mould temp on startup. I run a little extra lead over the sprue plate to keep it hot while casting. A damp rag can be nearby to cool the mould down some if frost starts occurring on the slugs.
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Those little spots are from lead splashing, sticking to the wall of the mold, and starting to harden before the cavity fills that full.
On large powder burner bullets, one solution is to pour on the edge of the sprue instead of straight down the hole.
For a pellet mold I would look at more heat in the lead, dipper, and mold, as a solution.
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Thanks guys. I ran things abit hotter last run, still seeing a few of the above pictured spots, not as many. I then started getting alot of flashing at the seems. Some i noticed only seemed to have it on one side of the pellet. It almost seem like the mold may have a burr and not closing down all the way. I was getting the whiskers as well. But they break away when you roll them, I found if i dont keep alot of lead in the hooded dipper. then the whiskers wouldn't be as bad.
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i think i just figured out my spiraling issue. there may be an issue with the mold. the pellets are out of round. i get full circle rifling engagement on the skirts, then on the heads only two spots are showing marks about 180 degress from each other on some. then on others it is 3 spots in a triangle so they would be 120 degree separation.
Basically they are not dropping perfectly round.
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If the pellets come out of the mold undersize and out of round, I'm pretty sure NOE want's to know about it.
And they will be very good about replacing the mold.
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Ok. So I tore the mold down again. Went over it and found a few burrs, some lead got behind the handle between the mold. Also found some nasty flashing burrs around the meplat area. Got it all worked and cleaned up.
NOE Al Swede called me and we talked. Told me to push the mold temp to 500 and try smoking the cavities lightly. He said my lead temp sounded good by seeing the same pic I posted here. Try again and see what I get.
So I made a double run. Made one run then put all my sprue cuts back in the most and took a 10 min break and started again. But I think that was what cause a lot of the same bubble circle to reappear agin. I had left my mold sitting over my melt to keep it warm and toasty, but it must have cooled down more than I thought. Got everything hot, had to make a few adjustments to the sprue plate as it wasn't cutting clean. Getting a lot of flash in the meplat area now. Al said it sounds like my tin content is on the high side. Got a ton of whiskers. But I found a hopefully ingenious way to deal with them. Managed to get 200 nice looking pellets tonight. Testing tomorrow to see what they.do.
So for those that cast and get/find whiskers. Grab a towel, put the pellets in the center. Fold towel over the pellets and grab the ends and roll/mix the pellets back and forth in the towel like they'd be in a tumbler. These came out so pretty and smooth. Man I hope these ones finally perform as they should.
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The only time I got whiskers was when I used lead that wasn't pure, I don't have a temperature controlled pot and I think that if I had one I could have turned the temp down some and suspect that might have taken care of the problem. Tin is really good to mix with the pure lead but that would be the only thing that I'd mix together. I no longer use pellets that I've melted that were store bought because you never really know exactly what might be in them ???
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So. i'm still getting spiraling. got pics of what i found. getting a lot of flashing in the meplat area now. Also a close up of 3 of my meplats. was still getting a few of the circle defect, but got way more better ones this time.
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Flash on the meplat is a problem with your sprue plate, many casters run with the sprue plate loose enough to swing when you tip the mold.
I have been casting some every morning, they are getting better, but still not good enough to stash away for later.
The whiskers seem to be the problem.
Changes to my casting looking for good pellets;
Went to ladle pour, 35 years of bottom pour under my belt and filling those tiny cavities was just to exciting.
Being left handed, the ladles available way back when were all right handed so I got a new one.
I'm using a lee 4lb pot. Wayne's one temp pot works for him, so mine is set to max temp.
Bought an old clothes iron at the 2nd hand store, took the handle off and made a stand from MDF board, JB welded a block of 6061 aluminum to the face, Makes a good mold and ladle preheater, my casting space just did not have room for a hotplate. Works good.
Have spent some time several mornings adjusting the pin holders. They now do not leave flash on the bottom of the skirt, and the mold closes most of time. Started tapping the hinge pin after closing the mold, while holding the handles together. Brass mold would probably work better than my aluminum.
On Knife's advice quit using sawdust, and now use 20 muleteam and paraffin as flux. Lead is cleaner.
Wayne says pure lead= less whiskers, so all the lead I was working with got cast into cores for 300 grain jacketed swaged bullets. It was from lead flashing with the soldered seams cut out (20cents per lb from scrap yard). Broke out some plumber's pigs, axed them into pieces small enough to fit in the pot. Still have whiskers.
All the new movements in casting this way are clumsy to me, gotta get me some technique!
On the bright side, first groups were 6+" at 25 yards with a 75% reject rate.
Now getting 1 1/2" with reject rates 30-40%. 9 shot groups are usually 7 or so in 2 distinct groups and a couple flyers.
I need to have some kind of a divider on my bench to separate pellets from different cavities in groups, I suspect the worst whiskers are from cavities near the end of the mold, and the two group thing could be pellets from different cavities.
JSB 25 grain pellets shoot 5/8-3/4" outside measurement.
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I'm currently setup casting the heavies. they weigh in about 28.8 grains. going to go try to get some pure lead at a scrap yard tomorrow. called them and they said they got about 500 lbs currently of pipe and pipe flanges. going for the pipe. $0.80 cents a pound. hard to beat that. Gonna try another run tonight adding in some more pure lead. I think my current batch is heavy on the tin.
To get rid of whiskers wrap them in a towel and twist the ends back and forth so the pellets tumble against each other. Worked really well to get rid of whiskers.
I have adjusted my sprue so that you have to bump it by hand to close it. it no longers falls open on its own. I also think it could be because I'm cutting my sprues to soon or not soon enough. Should i be tapping my way thru the sprue or all in one go?
I checked the best i could with calipers to measure the head bands at the widest point. Getting anywhere from .252-.2455. So i think my sprue cutting is messing with the heads. If i keep the roundness tolerance to .002-.003 i don't see very much spiraling. anything more and i reject cause they will definitely spiral.
did shoot a few groups. nothing to brag about. could get a nice cluster under 3/4" of three out 8. the rest are scattered around it. So things are getting better. Oh and i did manage to get a chipper at 29 yards. I think it was luck more than anything.
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Two scrap yards here to shop at, one wants a buck a pound, the other much more reasonable.
I want to open the sprue plate with hand pressure, If it has to be wacked, to open then the castings are rejects to me.
I have been experimenting with tumbling the pellets to remove whiskers too. First go was with 15 lb Thumbler's tumbler.
I just put the pellets in with no media and rolled them around. The went in nice, smooth, shiny.
Came out looking like the face of the moon, but not a whisker in sight! Decided to test fire anyway, putting them in the mag of my Matador the were visibly small at the skirt. Amazingly, they were my best group at that point.
Made me think the whiskers are part of the problem.
Next experiment was small 1 lb capacity rock tumbler loaded with ground corn cob and turtle wax. Did not remove the whiskers. Did not shoot well either.
Then put pellets in a lyman turbo tumbler with dirty corn cob for an hour. The pellets came out dirty grey, but the imperfections were very visible. Sorted out the good ones. Blew the dust off, put about 70 of them in a sandwich bag with about 1/2 a drop of Mobile One synthetic motor oil. squished the bag around until the oil was distributed. These are the best shooters so far.
This evening, rubbed the edges of the mold face with a popsicle stick, just re smoothing burrs and suspicious of the spots right at the shoulder of the pin. Uncomfortable with the sliver of light visible between the mold blocks.
Next experiment will be cast tomorrow. Then in the lyman turbo tumbler with new, crushed walnut media.
Your towel strategy sound good, I'm going to give it a try if... uhh...when the walnut media does not give sub MOA groups.
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Tonight's session is done. Tried a few things. Found that if I tip mold to dipper then rotate upright to pour then. Get dipper out quick but keep mold upright till sprue freezes the do the same with the next cavity. That seemed to cut down on bubble defect. Got 75 percent keepers almost a full tin in 3 hours. Sprue plate is tight to brass mold but still seem to get a lot of meplat flashing. Guess I'm gonna have to run it over sandpaper on top of glass to make sure it's flat. My furthest pin from handles seems to like to constantly hold on the pellet and require numerous taps to get it to pop. But when upright and open mold pins fall right out of place.
Still getting a lot of outta round meplats. Tried both gentle tape to cut the sprue and one quick fast cut. Same results. Hopefully once I switch to pure lead tomorrow things will clean up.
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Mark
I have been having good success cleaning up OEM CM HP pellets via tumbling,
I also use a Model "B" tumbler with 10#'s of SS pins, dump in 1000 pellets,
fill to within 1/2" of barrel lip of hot tap water, add a squirt of DAWN soap and run for 5 minutes, timed.
Dump the water and the pull the SS pins out with a magnet and collect the pellets,
I made a tube of a heavy weight towel, dump the pellets in, close the ends with my hands,
then tip each end up allowing the pellets to roll down to the ends of the tube for several trips,
then spread the pellets on a alum cookie sheet and set in the hot sun for 1 hr or until dry.
The amount of flashing I get is unreal per can, the tumbled pellets turn out very smooth and uniform,
no mold lines etc, I still need to roll test and weigh them and Wax them, before I shoot for groups,
as compared to other tins of pellets that are untouched etc.
I got 5000, all at the same time.................. ;)
these pellets seem to be very accurate out of 3 of my rifles, the Varmint, Gauntlet and the 79 QB,
haven't tried the Sentry yet, awaiting parts before tear down, slow leak.........
YMMV,
Don
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Don, I had discounted the thought of stainless steel pins. But with water they would not be so bad. My problem is that last vent line close to the edge of the skirt, If the flash would go away, hopefully accuracy will improve.
I have been talking whiskers, but the one vent closest to the edge of the skirt is more robust, perhaps flash is a better description.
Using an effective flash removal treatment, the hollow base pins can be adjusted just a bit looser, which will make the mold close better. I'm going to loosen all my pin holders and slip a shim under there, then tighten the screws.
Scion, with the sprue plate tight, adding heat can make the plate not want to sit flat against the blocks.
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i keep a close eye on the sprue plate, i can see daylight on one end that rotates when cold. we'll see what happens. I got 9 pound of pure lead and gonna add 44 grams of my previous batch, if i have fill out issues, to pick up a touch of tin. I ended up getting 63 pounds today for $54. got a lot of regular pipe lead. has 2 or 3 solder joints. and some lead pipe flashing about 4 or 5 of them.
Need to figure out an effective way to release the solder joints and keep them seperate from my pure lead as they should be tin joints. already smelted and cleaned up, and pucked about 6 of them weight about 4 lbs per puck. grabbed some paraffin way to use as flux.
cant wait to see how this batch goues tonight. I am determined to get this dialed in. LOL
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You done good shopping for lead.
I just use snips to cut the solder joints from flashing. Pipe is going to be a different story. I would set the pipe on a piece of wood, take a single bit ax, set the blade on the pipe near the joint and beat on the axe with a 2 or 3 lb hammer.
The solder joints end up in alloy used to cast .45 auto, a little more tin doesn't worry me for blasting ammo.
My accuracy was up today, put a folded over strip in aluminum foil between the pin keepers and the block. The micrometer said it was .0025 thick. The mold closed better, can still see light through the closed blocks but now more of a hairline.
About 35% rejects, mostly for flash on the bottom of the skirt. assuming just one pin is now too loose.
Many careful measurements with a 1"-2" micrometer told me one pin keeper was high by about .0019. Removed the tinfoil from under that keeper, Results after tomorrow's casting session.
Tumbled the pellets in a small, slow rotary tumbler for 5 minutes with stainless steel pins, water, and dawn.
Next time, 15 minutes, the pellets were de haired but still had flash.
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so I put sandpaper on a piece of glass and did the bottom of my sprue plate. It was pretty decent. So I then did the top of mold to see what that looked like. Ouch. Took a bit of work to get flat. Success, no more meplat flashing. Got another tin of pellets done in pure lead. Had a little flash on the bottom skirt of some. This session was so easy. Pellets were dropping out of mold with only an occasional tap or two here and there. Still having to check them all as I was still getting my infamous bubble defect. Lost maybe 25% to the bubble. Meplat now also looks a lot rounder. did my normal towel tumble and they look pretty good. Can't wait to test for spiraling and accuracy. Gonna check weight and heads to see if my outta round issue cleared up.
I think my other mix some how got way too much tin in it. Now I just need my temp probe to come in as I couldn't seem to keep a happy temp on my lead tonight. Was getting some pretty colors developing on the top of the lead, so that would tell me it was way too hot. So I'd turn it down and then it would start freezing up.
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yea!!!! No spirals. Did attempt to measure heads. Calipers say they are still slightly outta round. 3/4" group at 28 yards, and getting hole-in-hole's. So, so , much better using known pure lead. Weighed in at 28.6 average. Getting 28.4- 28.8 on the shortest skirt, not the solid pin. looks like i'm currently at 832 fps but i did also just bump up from 1900 psi to 2000 psi. so I know my tune is off and needs tweaking.
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Them small 4# pots can get to too high of temp I reccomend getting a pot thermometer, I think about a 4-5 setting to be best temp. I see you found Waynes trick to using a presure pour ladle, a matter of lining up the mold sideways and then flipping upright with the ladle to get a solid even pour, takes practice for sure, glad to see things improving, yes pellet casting is much harder than slugs.
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Mark has the right idea about the lead pipe and joints, those joints work good for hard ball slugs for 45 ACP whereas the pipe itself is about as pure as you're gonna get for airguns and muzzle loaders.
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yeah i tried my best to keep joints out of my lead. Things are improving greatly. I was even able to run my Rocker1 LDC again. Did a quick two shots to check sight in after re-installing LDC. Hit 1/2" 28 yard group.
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Scion, Good to read about your fixing the top of your mold.
I'm starting to make some good pellets too. My cull rate is near 12% after visual but now I'm going to start weighing them. They still don't shoot as good as JSB's
My two distinct groups were caused by pellets cast with the mold not closed completely, and pellets cast with a closed mold. I shot a lot of cull pellets today to see what defect is permissible. Absolutely no flash on the skirt,
and it's a waste of time to cut flash off. Pretty obvious. But had to try anyway.
Back_Roads, could not get any good pellets until I started running the pot on the highest setting. It's so hot that the lead turns straw color right after scooping dross off the top. Using the sinking ship method of filling the ladle and working briskly, I can get 15-20 pours before the dross causes a problem to casting.
The 5 or 6 setting works pretty good when pouring .720 round balls, or shotgun slugs.
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I did a short run on the lightest pellets tonight. Threw 30 back for remelt. As far a flashing on back of skirt goes. I found it best to try to catch it and roll it to the outside of the skirt, as the flash is usually on outside of skirt then press is down while twisting on a piece of glass. Then tumble in a towel. This has worked for me to get rid of skirt flashing. But as you know getting the pins set to correct depth with mold hot works best to eliminate it.
I melt in a 2 quart cast iron pot on a propane burner. I know my lead is on the hot side, and hard to keep temps regulated. Clean dross and get the straw color quick. Then blue and purple are a few minutes behind. I only clean dross off when my dipper starts poring slowly.
I managed 275 keepers.
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OK yeah I spaced out the fact you are using dippers, so there can be a cool down time between dip and pour.
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just weighed my last pellets on the longest pin. 25.2-25.4 grins. hmmm. why they coming in short in length and 1 grain off or so. should be dropping 26.7.
my length is .283" spec is .300"
checked my prior batch of the heavies and they are the same length measurement as well. odd. I bet that is why mine are coming in a full grain short of what the spec should be.
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Make sure you are getting full skirt fill, I have had some get past me that looked perfect, but on closer inspection saw the skirts had almost filled, looked good at first , but had loose fit in the breach, and uneven balance.
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just weighed my last pellets on the longest pin. 25.2-25.4 grins. hmmm. why they coming in short in length and 1 grain off or so. should be dropping 26.7.
my length is .283" spec is .300"
checked my prior batch of the heavies and they are the same length measurement as well. odd. I bet that is why mine are coming in a full grain short of what the spec should be.
Mine mic from .281-.285.
Have not weighed any yet. I really don't care what the number is, as long as it's consistent.
I'm pretty sure your mold and mine came from the same lot.
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could very well be from the same lot. looking at the specs,and what i'm getting. it appears both my heads and skirts are under length. but, hey, who cares as long as they are accurate and consistent.
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wind was down today, so decided to try dialing in my setup. had to pull action and tight my bolt handle. go figure. Also dropped my fps down a touch. probably around high 870's to low 880's and things tighten'd up alot. may go a touch more.
bottom row were at 888 fps
lower center i backed off a hair on fps the two lower shots were me. just as i squeezed off, i felt the gun shift.
the upper left was after trying a windage right adjustment. didn't move much.
upper right was another two clicks added. too far. lol. so i moved back one click left.
All shots of one fill. there are 40 shots on target, with some left before i actually fall off regulator. .38L bottle.
these are all basically un weighed NOE 250-27-RF cast by myself.
pellets are weighing in at 25.0-25.4 grains on the longest pin, lightest weight.
I'm happy with what i'm getting, and they are deadly at range. i think my bc calculation is off on them and i'm hitting 1/2 mil high at 72 yards out.
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If those are at 72 yards, you have done really well at first casting attempt. My first attempt are shotgun at 25 yards, but are BBT slugs, not pellets, which are more finicky. I'll try them again in a better barrel at many different diameters in .25 cal coming up and see if I have better luck with that.
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Looking good for sure !!! Those meplats work really well IMO, I even get better accuracy with the Magnum hunters than I do with the Hunters, they a considerably longer pellet that seems happy in the low to mid 900's.
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If those are at 72 yards, you have done really well at first casting attempt. My first attempt are shotgun at 25 yards, but are BBT slugs, not pellets, which are more finicky. I'll try them again in a better barrel at many different diameters in .25 cal coming up and see if I have better luck with that.
LOL. opps. the pic is my 28 yard groups. I have a steel gong out at 72 yards. According to Chairgun given my setup, I should be holding 2-1/2 mil dots for 72 yards but I have to hold at 2 mil dots to connect. I can even consistently ring my 100 yard gong with my NOE 250-27-RF's.
Looking good for sure !!! Those meplats work really well IMO, I even get better accuracy with the Magnum hunters than I do with the Hunters, they a considerably longer pellet that seems happy in the low to mid 900's.
i was thinking in the beginning to get the Magnum mold, but wasn't sure if I would like them. I did have some of the JSB heavies, but could only get my rig to push them to 52 FPE at the muzzle. That was prior to the adjustable regulator and larger bottle. I did see that I could get the hunters into the 900's, but didn't test accuracy.
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I have been getting similar groups at 25 yards. Careful inspection wearing the optivisor, plus adjusting the pin keepers is cutting down on the two flyers, like a couple of your groups show.
Several days ago each nine shot group had two or three flyers. Now the groups are better, did quite a bit of casting yesterday.
I have been in the habit of giving away empty pellet tins, suddenly I just don't have enough. I have about 1000 pretty good cast .25 cal pellets now, and may not cast any again until fall.
Going to focus on the .17 and .22 to empty a few tins.
I chose the 27 grain mold for less energy carried down range, if longer range shooting is called for, there's powderburners handy.
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These are my real favorites these days, excellent for hunting.
(https://i.imgur.com/Hhxcgs9.jpg)
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They sure do let a critter know you tapped them out for sure Wayne ;D
I will have to find time if I get rained out soon , to set up the NOE Wad Cutters molds I just got in .22 and .25, along with a light weight95 gr. .35 cal. BBT HP :o
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They sure do let a critter know you tapped them out for sure Wayne ;D
I will have to find time if I get rained out soon , to set up the NOE Wad Cutters molds I just got in .22 and .25, along with a light weight95 gr. .35 cal. BBT HP :o
How did you get a 95gr bbt?
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They sure do let a critter know you tapped them out for sure Wayne ;D
I will have to find time if I get rained out soon , to set up the NOE Wad Cutters molds I just got in .22 and .25, along with a light weight95 gr. .35 cal. BBT HP :o
How did you get a .35 95gr bbt?
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They sure do let a critter know you tapped them out for sure Wayne ;D
I will have to find time if I get rained out soon , to set up the NOE Wad Cutters molds I just got in .22 and .25, along with a light weight95 gr. .35 cal. BBT HP :o
How did you get a .35 95gr bbt?
Actually lighter than I remembered ??? and not a Boat Tail :-\
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/355-9mm/tl358-100-rf-be2/tl358-100-rf-be2-rg2-cavity-pb
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These are my real favorites these days, excellent for hunting.
(https://i.imgur.com/Hhxcgs9.jpg)
Those are looking good Wayne! I am looking forward to trying my shelved 41gr BBTs with a different barrel (Smooth twist) coming up. I wished they were HPs, but is what was available at the time.
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Keith I've got the 41 grain BBT mold with the Lyman pin so I only cast one at a time in HP but man do they shoot good out of my 25 cal sentry. I even bagged a weasel with one a while back.
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Keith I've got the 41 grain BBT mold with the Lyman pin so I only cast one at a time in HP but man do they shoot good out of my 25 cal sentry. I even bagged a weasel with one a while back.
You know Wayne, if you keep shooting politicians they're going to get mad at ya.
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Keith I've got the 41 grain BBT mold with the Lyman pin so I only cast one at a time in HP but man do they shoot good out of my 25 cal sentry. I even bagged a weasel with one a while back.
You know Wayne, if you keep shooting politicians they're going to get mad at ya.
Unfortunately it was the 4 legged type weasel I shot with it.
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Keith I've got the 41 grain BBT mold with the Lyman pin so I only cast one at a time in HP but man do they shoot good out of my 25 cal sentry. I even bagged a weasel with one a while back.
That's some good news! I even cut my choke off trying to get them to group better, and they did, but not for any kind of distance. I have also tried all but the smallest sizing bushing .248 Maybe that's the one I need? Also, all the way up to 77 FPE. It could also be the slow 19" twist of a GM barrel. They have all been gone over and sorted by weight and look good to me.
These are before culling back to pot.
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Trig, very few have luck with those slugs. Only a lucky few, and then mostly HP's. :(
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Trig, very few have luck with those slugs. Only a lucky few, and then mostly HP's. :(
Aha, one of those that just looks good on paper. You still gotta love those engineers...
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Out at the rifle range yesterday.
At 25 yards the pellets cast with NOE mold .25-27RF were okay compared with JSB .25 25.(bs) grain pellets.
At 40 yards the home cast were pretty good.
At 100 yards The cast shot groups in the 4" range, the JSBs 2".
Launched from EDgun Matador long. JSB 25.(bs) chronoed @935fps
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I bet if you slowed them down a bit you would see alot better group performance outta them. my group pic posted has about 15 fps difference between the bottom l & R group to the slightly slower upper groups. you can see they tightened up.
I know i can consistently reach out and ring my 6" 100 yard gong plate. i'll have to throw a target out there on a clam day and see what it would do on paper size wise.
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hey guys, and girls,,,
what is a good lube to use on cast pellets. I noticed today that my barrel is quite filthy. right now i'm using pure lead cast 250-27-rf pellets. dropping at 25.0-25.4 . I think if i get them lube they will possibly perform even better. looking for cheap option to use. the gun is pcp, so don't wanna diesel it.
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Those are super light compared to what I cast with pure lead and I've got my pins about as snug as I dare go.
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Pretty sure it is a mold issue. They come in way short on the length. There is another member who is having the same issues in another thread. We're thinking our moods are from the same batch. The are around .02" short in overall length. I get .283" spec is .300"
What are you using to lube your cast pellets?
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I don't lube pellets at all.
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No, I don't lube soft lead pellets except for my .357 big bore and a special made and tight MMHF barrel I have, but I might would lube hard lead pellets like the H&N and others, or hard cast, which I wouldn't cast.
It doesn't hurt to experiment to see what your barrel does with or without lubes. Your shot count between barrel cleanings could increase if accuracy has not been affected by the lube(s).
Knife has a lube he makes using 10% shock oil and a 10% mix of Vaseline added to it. It's very slick. I also like FP-10. Whatever you do, don't over do it with the application, and clean the barrel good before using wet lubes. Wet lubes will turn lead powder into mush and will foul an LDC if over lubing. It doesn't take much.
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No, I don't lube soft lead pellets except for my .357 big bore and a special made and tight MMHF barrel I have, but I might would lube hard lead pellets like the H&N and others, or hard cast, which I wouldn't cast.
It doesn't hurt to experiment to see what your barrel does with or without lubes. Your shot count between barrel cleanings could increase if accuracy has not been affected by the lube(s).
Knife has a lube he makes using 10% shock oil and a 10% mix of Vaseline added to it. It's very slick. I also like FP-10. Whatever you do, don't over do it with the application, and clean the barrel good before using wet lubes. Wet lubes will turn lead powder into mush and will foul an LDC if over lubing. It doesn't take much.
What does he use for the other 80 percent?
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Well. Did good casting for about 3 or 4 tins of pellets. Now having mold issues again. Grrr. My last two attempts at casting was getting a lot of rejects. A lot by way of 75% rejected yesterday and scared to look to see what I got tonight.
Tore down my mold to deep clean and look for lead splash of something to give me the issues. None found. I know I couldn't have even overheated my mold, but can see light between mold halves at the end where you tap the sprue to cut. Noticed the sprue plate holes aren't centered over the pellet cavities. Dropping short, and under weight as stated in a previous post. Using known pure lead at 688-725 degrees for temp. Getting an odd divot in edge just below the meplat where the seam is. Looked at the mold and under magnification and a strong light it seems the meplat lower hole area in the corner of the plate that has the sprue is rounded open. Not sure how this could have happened. There are no gouges from my sprue plate sliding across to cut the sprues. Nothing sharp to cause damage in this area.
any ideas? This is the 250-27-rf cc3 2 cavity brass mold.
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Did you take off the hollow skirt pins one at a time to see if a pin was the problem?
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No but I did switch from the medium to longest that I had been using. Got same issues with both sets.
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I wonder of one of your pin holders is holding the pin too high, keeping the mold from shutting.
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nope. wish it was though. i noticed this when i had the mold tore down, off the handles and pins out.
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here are my areas of concern. misspoke on where the meplat issue was. it is in the side that doesnt hold the sprue plate. it has the stop screw on the side with damage.
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If you know somebody with a mill you could take a few thousandths off the top of the blocks.
It's going to leave a larger meplat, and lighter pellet. Will also shift the center of gravity.
The sprue holes not centered on the cavity is not fatal.
I have a mill, my skill level is hobbyist, but there are others on the site who provide such services professionally.
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i emailed NOE. he asked to send the mold back to him. that way he can see what is going on with it, and see what can be done to fix it. may have to try another mold to get back closer to spec sizing. if that happens i hope the performance increases as well. they aren't bad the way it currently is, but a touch longer i think would be even better.
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Good plan.
Much better than mine.
Looking forward to hearing the results.
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so got the mold all rounded up and added a dozen pellets to show the defect of the cavity. got it mailed out yesterday to NOE. so hope to hear what's up by the end of the week. now i just hope i got enough pellets to last. lol.
i did manage to get a pic of the issue as seen below
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well AL called me today. he got my mould and looked it over. he is as confused as i am as to how the damage(rounded corners) happened and thinks it may be an issue with the mould vent in the meplat area. He told me that all the current moulds are short and underweight. he sent out a new mould, but thinks i may have the same issue again. gonna try it out and see if it happens again. hate to have to go back to buying pellets again, and waiting forever for them to arrive.
I also asked about when the resupply of slug mould was going to happen, he says they are in the que and roughly 8-9 weeks out till we all see them in stock again. he did offer to refund my money for the mould, or try another. Can't say enough about what a stand up guy he is and great company to deal with. i took the try another mould route, as i know he does awesome things for us as airgunners. and is there to help us when issues arise. i wouldn't feel right to ask for my money back. i can live with the pellets dropping at 25.4 gr versus the spec 26 gr. wonder how much different they would group in my gauntlet and full spec weight and length.
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Good old lead pipe can be found where old house's are being demolished. I'd talk to the excavator guy and ask him what they do with it ??? When I was still doing a lot of metal detecting I'd find some decent hunks of pipe but when I go out and try to find it I never can. Now I resort to Rotometal split pig ingots because these days I'm doing more casting than I ever have.
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Got the replacement mould tonight. Did a small run to see what was up, as I noticed some differences. Had to toss about 20 back to the pot. This mould runs a lot different from my original. Did come across a small burr that I didn't see on the initial cleaning. Took care of it after the run after checking the pellets over. So next run should be issue free. The sprue hole seems smaller on this one and centered up over the meplat way better.
Can't say enough on Al Swede and NOE moulds and their service to us. Can't wait for them to get more moulds back in stock as I'll be getting a slug next.
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The RG molds for the slugs are really nice, I have the brass two cavity 217-30-FN I use often because the slugs shoot so good from my Airmax Dominator with no sizing, they also shoot really good from my modified Xisico Sentry in .22 (the gun in my signature at the moment). If NOE starts making the same basic mold in .25 I'll be buying one of those. The last couple times I've been hunting the state land I've been using my Liberty with the good ole 217-20-RF Hunters, those pellets are awesome for accuracy from that gun.
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Wayne, have you tried the 217-30-FN in your liberty? I'm trying to get the sizing right to shoot them out of my Liberty. My Liberty is shooting 26.1 grain AVS slugs at 920FPS right now but the 30-fn are only going around 840 FPS sized to .217. Ordered up some .216 and .215 sizing bushings this evening and hope one of those sizes will be the right one.
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Robert with my mold by the time I sized them down small enough the drive band would be gone. AVS slugs shoot excellent from my Liberty as well. When NOE makes some more of the .218 slugs I'll probably order one of those molds. They're more like what the AVS slugs are except they're not cup based.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/224/218-25-rf-d6/218-25-rf-d6-rg2-2-cavity-brass
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That would be nice. I measured the area between the drive bands and it came out to .211 the avs slugs come in at .2165 so I'm going to try the.216 bushing I've got coming.
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Got the replacement mould tonight. Did a small run to see what was up, as I noticed some differences. Had to toss about 20 back to the pot. This mould runs a lot different from my original. Did come across a small burr that I didn't see on the initial cleaning. Took care of it after the run after checking the pellets over. So next run should be issue free. The sprue hole seems smaller on this one and centered up over the meplat way better.
Can't say enough on Al Swede and NOE moulds and their service to us. Can't wait for them to get more moulds back in stock as I'll be getting a slug next.
Dan the sprue plate holes for the 217-17-WC wadd cutter mold are super small, that sprue plate has to be good and warm when casting with that mold or the head of the pellets sometimes are hard to get really good, out of all the molds I cast with that's about the hardest to get right but when they're right they shoot like a million dollars from my .22 Crosman 150's
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wayne, this is the 250-27-rf cc3 mould not the 217-17-wc mould. or maybe you were just referring to the sprue plate holes. just measured and weighed a few of what i cast last night. still no change there. .2825"-.283" in length, and 25.2-25.4 grains. so that's good. had to add 3 clicks left to get them on target, compared to the last mould, but that could just be crosswind messing around. i'll try to get pics up of the recent casts and the mould later on.
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Dan most all of the lightest ones that I cast from the 250-27-RF mold are right a 26 grains.
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wayne,
apparently according to my conversation with Swede, the latest batch of the 250-27 mould he got were all short in length and under weight per specifications on the mould design.
Personally i wonder how much different the pellets would be accuracy wise with them a full spec length versus the length i currently drop at... Granted were only tanking about .017-.02" in length difference give or take. But i have found i can't put much over 830 fps behind what i cast without getting massive precession(spiraling) out of a 1:20 twist gauntlet barrel. kind of an odd issue to get nailed down. I can push Air Arms 25.4 gr to 900 fps with no precession at all. But have gotten some in my attempts at NSA 26.8 gr .249 slugs. makes me wonder if it is a length issue that is causing some of the massive spiraling in a 1:20 twist.
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guys, i'm really enjoying this new replacement mold. runs so smoothly. last 2 days i managed to cast 457 pellets. this thing runs like butter compared to my original. mind you there was maybe 3 hours of total cast time to get that amount. still have about 50 pellets left from the original mold, then time to see how the new mould shoots. I have 2 full tins and the 457 ready to go. I know i'll have to resight in for them as they do hit a touch off compared to original. based on a single clip test when i first got the mould back. Did a small 50 pellet weight check last night. 25.4 gr is my average. had a few that were 25.2 gr. can't beat that for a average weight variance in a tin of pellets. I've seen a heard of JSB and Air Arms tins having a way larger weight spread. I'm getting .3 grain difference at the most on my 2 cavity mold. I hope this new setup tightens my groups even better.
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Well been quite busy and finally got time to put up pics of the new mould. Had a few gun issues as well. Got things all sorted now. Changed from the 25.4 gr to the next heaviest at 27.2 gr. Couldn't be happier with NOE mould and Al Swede did a great job helping me take care of the original mould issue.
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Wayne and others,
Here is some of my pellet porn for you all. these are the new mould 27.2 gr pellets which is the second pin in my set.
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Those are looking really good Dan! Those skirts even look pristine. I should be receiving my new .30 cal mold shaped like these today.
I wonder why they have flat tops instead of having round heads. Seems the round heads would buck the wind better in my thinking.
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Those look fantastic Dan !!! Well done indeed !!! Keith the meplat head design is pretty much the closest you're going to get with a mold for anything close to what the round nose (swaged) pellets are going to be.
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Wayne and others,
Here is some of my pellet porn for you all. these are the new mould 27.2 gr pellets which is the second pin in my set.
Ah yes just like mom used to make ;) Nothing like fresh baked pellets :)
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I was out shooting my slugs again today, I am really enjoying how accurate they are !!!
https://youtu.be/JC1bI6PriP0
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As always Wayne great shootin !
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Ty guys. I'm happy with my results. I just got some of avs's new .2503" slugs and they are showing promise. 34 and 36 grain. Also I did take a chipper at 66 yards again. Same spot at my other one at 66 yards. With the 27.2 NOE Hunter pellet.
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I have on of the .25 cal molds that cast pellets .017 short and a bit light.
I painted the cavities of some white. Then took them to the rifle range. Up in one bay during sunset
the berm cast a shadow on the impact area while the pellets flight is through bright sunshine.
The shadow is 101 meters from the firing line. the pellets seemed to fly straight with no spiraling.
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got my PID temp controller today and k-type probe. waiting for a few more parts to arrive. New lee 10# bottom pour pot should be here tomorrow. gonna try it out and see what happens.
I think pure lead should be about 700 fahrenheit to get good pellets out of a brass mould. should i go higher? I'm pretty sure there must be others trying this out.
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got my PID temp controller today and k-type probe. waiting for a few more parts to arrive. New lee 10# bottom pour pot should be here tomorrow. gonna try it out and see what happens.
I think pure lead should be about 700 fahrenheit to get good pellets out of a brass mould. should i go higher? I'm pretty sure there must be others trying this out.
You'll appreciate that PID controller, especially on a 10 pound pot. I know I do even on my 20 pound pot, especially when the lead supply drops low.
I just cast these at 725°. They turned out fine, but for the first time I used the Lee dipper to fill the slots instead of using the gravity drop spout. At 725° the spout kept clogging up. At 825° it didn't do that. I still prefer the dipper now. Far more control.
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so it sounds like there is a window in the temps. somewhere between 725-825 degrees. guess once i get all setup, i'll have to see what works best for my situation.
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Keith those pellets are excellent indeed!!! The trickiest mold I have is the 217-17-WC, the sprue plate hole is tiny on that mold and the plates gotta be plenty warm or the nose of the pellets don't fill out good, I'm getting better at it every time I cast them and I'm over due for casting some more.
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As always Wayne great shootin !
I was shooting my Airmax Dominator today with those same slugs, that gun is ultra quiet in comparison by far. I'm not getting the power from it like I'm getting from the Sentry.
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so it sounds like there is a window in the temps. somewhere between 725-825 degrees. guess once i get all setup, I'll have to see what works best for my situation.
My experience with temps is that the lower temps will produce slightly lighter pellets while higher temps will produce slightly heavier ones. For example, I started this latest cast at 775°. I kept those in a separate pile. I then lowered the temp down to 725° for another pile. Now that I have been able to weight sort both piles, there is on average a one grain difference in the average weights between the two piles. I'll let the experts explain why that is, but my thinking is there is more fill out at the higher temps. This may also be due to being able to pour all four cavities before the temps drop too low for best fill out using a dipper instead of the spout?
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Keith those pellets are excellent indeed!!! The trickiest mold I have is the 217-17-WC, the sprue plate hole is tiny on that mold and the plates gotta be plenty warm or the nose of the pellets don't fill out good, I'm getting better at it every time I cast them and I'm over due for casting some more.
Thanks Wayne! They did turn out pretty. Hopefully they'll shoot pretty, too.
All of the three NOE molds I have are with the drop pins. They are more challenging for sure. You should know I have picked up a lot from you starting out and I appreciate it. I also use a dipper now while using a gravity drop pot, Lol...Your fault.
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My experience with temps is that the lower temps will produce slightly lighter pellets while higher temps will produce slightly heavier ones. For example, I started this latest cast at 775°. I kept those in a separate pile. I then lowered the temp down to 725° for another pile. Now that I have been able to weight sort both piles, there is on average a one grain difference in the average weights between the two piles. I'll let the experts explain why that is, but my thinking is there is more fill out at the higher temps. This may also be due to being able to pour all four cavities before the temps drop too low for best fill out using a dipper instead of the spout?
I wonder if that is why mine drop so light. I know i try to keep my pure led below 700° currently with the way my setup is. just about a full grain under. I'll have to experiment some once i get my pid setup up and running on the new pot. Got my box made, power switch installed, and power in and out cable retainers in place. Just got my thermocouple connector, so i can now cut out the slot for that as well as my pid box. still waiting for the ssr and heat sink. then its just a matter of getting it wired up. lee pot should be here tomorrow.
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My experience with temps is that the lower temps will produce slightly lighter pellets while higher temps will produce slightly heavier ones. For example, I started this latest cast at 775°. I kept those in a separate pile. I then lowered the temp down to 725° for another pile. Now that I have been able to weight sort both piles, there is on average a one grain difference in the average weights between the two piles. I'll let the experts explain why that is, but my thinking is there is more fill out at the higher temps. This may also be due to being able to pour all four cavities before the temps drop too low for best fill out using a dipper instead of the spout?
I wonder if that is why mine drop so light. I know i try to keep my pure led below 700° currently with the way my setup is. just about a full grain under. I'll have to experiment some once i get my pid setup up and running on the new pot. Got my box made, power switch installed, and power in and out cable retainers in place. Just got my thermocouple connector, so i can now cut out the slot for that as well as my pid box. still waiting for the ssr and heat sink. then its just a matter of getting it wired up. lee pot should be here tomorrow.
Lead melts around 626°. At 700° you're not much above that and it can cool too fast with any delay out of the pot for best fill out, IMHO. I start my mold out around 350° from a hot plate, then I put an extra amount of lead on the sprue plate to bring the mold up more. Once the mold is up to temp, it's not as critical when working steady. At 800° it flowed out of my spout with a lot more control. I didn't have any trouble at 725° dipping out the lead from the top of the pot into the mold though. I had the mold resting on the edge of the pot though to help level it.
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Well the new 10# pot showed up today. Got my temp probe mounted so it's angled and fairly close to the spout rod. temps were from 725- 825, with the dial between 3 1/2 and 4 1/2. After 3 hours of messing around and playing with different settings and distance from the spout. Casting didn't go too good. Ton of rejected pellets. I think I had too much air blowing, and had trouble with mould keeping temp. had skirt fill out, circle dimples in sides of heads issues. Then it would cast good for a few pellets and back to &^^&. Was trying to get pour directly into center of sprue plate hole the best I could. I did learn alot. Even tried to catch an edge and let it swirl into the sprue hole, that is a big no no. Always got bad casts doing that. Even tried different heights from the spout. Found roughly 3/4" below to be the best. Temps stayed quite stable and consistent. Was kinda surprised by that. Can't wait to get the pid running.
I even had the mold on a cast iron pan over propane burner to keep mold temp up. Basically a make shift hot plate, with tin foil over the mold to tent it and keep heat in. Gonna have to heat the mold more. Gonna give it another go tomorrow and see how it goes. Hate to give up too quick and go back to side pour ladle. Wonder if mine will even fit with the angled spout rod.
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Yes air flow etc. can mess with you both on pot and mold, heck I have yo move the frying pan 10" off the burners down wind when SWMBO has the A/C on :-X
One reason I went to the B a sement, a more constant temp and I can control the air flow. YBH if I had not started casting with bigger bore in an less controlled environment, I may have given up instantly if I started with the smaller bores, but there is much proof that persistence , and foremost planning does pay off.
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Bob Rsterne I believe has the same pot and has modified the spout for better results he states: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154047.msg155696284#msg155696284 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154047.msg155696284#msg155696284)
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trigger thanks for that link. gonna have to try that. First i'm gonna try to make an adjustable mold block guide that i can use to adjust height from the pour spout and see if that helps. if not i'll take the nose off the spout. i'll update later on how i make out. time to head out to the garage.
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trigger thanks for that link. gonna have to try that. First i'm gonna try to make an adjustable mold block guide that i can use to adjust height from the pour spout and see if that helps. if not i'll take the nose off the spout. i'll update later on how i make out. time to head out to the garage.
NOE makes a reasonably priced mold guide for the LEE bottom pour pot which works great for a non-pin molds so I had to mill out a slot to accommodate the bottom pin retainers that are on my NOE pellet molds.
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thanks for the info Bob Pratl,,,i got the pin retainers on my mould. i did hear about the noe mould guide. plus i don't think it will fit the lee pro pot IV. i think it may be the the lee 4-20 pot. I got the 10#.
So made another attempt last night. I ended up at 820"s for temp. but just did a weight check and my pellets are 26.6 grains. so even lighter yet.not good as i was getting 27.2 grains ladle pouring at 700. pulled down my mould as my cavity closest to my handels seem to wanna stick alot and have flashing at the skirt area. found some trash at the pin shoulder. so that should be good now. I tried my mould guide and it seems that if the lead stream doesn't hit the sprue plate hole center, then its gonna be a defective pellet.
so gonna notch the tip and try with it right tight to the sprue. may have to try a lower temp as well. if i am right the higher the lead setting the lighter the pellet becomes from what i'm seeing. My plate i made to heat my mould on top of the pot did seem to work very well.
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ok.. so i think i got this monster figured out now. i did try Bob Rsterne mod on the pot spout. man what a mess. Mine apparently had the flow wide open, hot lead everywhere. So i let the pot cool to solidify some. pulled off the handle assembly and tweaked my rod so that lift was limited. Now i can lift it repeatedly to the same amount and flow is more consistent, made a mold guide. Now as long as the pour hits the sprue hole fairly close i'm getting good casts now.
A long run will determine if all is well now. i was running at 820° range. If it is i'll post some pics of my setup. With any luck my ssr and heatsink should be here tomorrow. then i can get the pid running on the pot. Right now i'm using my Digital volt meter and my temp gauge.
Been thinking about using my meter to watch mold temp, but didn't get the hole drilled. where is the best place to put the prole hole? how deep should it be? i have two k-temp probes, and once the pid is running the probe in the pot will be for that, and my volt meter could be used to watch the mold. I tested both my temp probes, they are within .3° of each other.
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https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=174831.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=174831.0)
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ok.. so i think i got this monster figured out now. i did try Bob Rsterne mod on the pot spout. man what a mess. Mine apparently had the flow wide open, hot lead everywhere. So i let the pot cool to solidify some. pulled off the handle assembly and tweaked my rod so that lift was limited. Now i can lift it repeatedly to the same amount and flow is more consistent, made a mold guide. Now as long as the pour hits the sprue hole fairly close i'm getting good casts now.
A long run will determine if all is well now. i was running at 820° range. If it is i'll post some pics of my setup. With any luck my ssr and heatsink should be here tomorrow. then i can get the pid running on the pot. Right now i'm using my Digital volt meter and my temp gauge.
Been thinking about using my meter to watch mold temp, but didn't get the hole drilled. where is the best place to put the prole hole? how deep should it be? i have two k-temp probes, and once the pid is running the probe in the pot will be for that, and my volt meter could be used to watch the mold. I tested both my temp probes, they are within .3° of each other.
Good to read you are having some luck. I may have to give that spout mod a try. Mine is the Pro 4-20 with a vertical spout which is better at stopping the flow I would assume than the angled rod, and it is slotted to adjust the flow amount. I don't want to screw it up though with them not being available anymore.
I always have my molds drilled for a probe when ordering. I use the NOE electronic temp gauge with probe. The Madd Hatter link is what the hole looks like on mine, too. Just make the hole where it will be convenient to use once you sort out how you want your handle and mold arranged (left-hand/right-hand).
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i think the single largest improvement was bending my handle to limit/adjust the flow rate. my handle now only moves about 1/8-3/8" inch. I can either cast like bob did with the spout notched, or just rest it on my custom mold guide and pour into it as long as it hits fairly centered. Found 790-830 is a good area to cast at.
Looked at my mold...not sure on the best placement of the temp probe. my mould is the 250-27-rf, it has the pin keepers on the left half with the handles facing you. this seems to be the common area to put the temp probe. so i may have to use the right side, bottom corner as it seems to be less clustered with screws and what not.
I was just getting into a rhythm last night and my spout clogged up twice on me. just checked weight and it seems that i'm still on the lighter side. 27 grains. still need to figure out how to get lower temps and be good on casting as i think the higher temp is giving lighter casts. I'm running pure lead. I'll get some pics up shortly.
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pics as promised
1st pic is my movement of the spout rod that i tweaked to get same flow every time.
2nd is the notched and flattened spout. my custom adjustable mold guide, made out of oak.
3rd is my custom hot plate to hold my mold.
then the rest are my pid temp controller that needs a few more pieces added to be functional. Custom bow with aluminium top and bottom.
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Looks like you are all set now! I would add some ventilation to the PID controller to help the heat sink out. I went with the 40 amp SSR for a couple coins more. Many uses...
With hotter lead and better fill out, the weight should be maxed with pure lead. You may see some shrinkage though as the lead cools.
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yeah i got the 40 amp ssr as well. Planning on cutting a hole and having the bottom of heat sink mounted outside on the bottom. figued that would help any heat issues. if they even get hot. but may have to do some hole, time will tell.
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got my pid all wired up and running. My auto tune takes forever to cycle. when i leave the factory settings for P, I & D it seems to do a decent job of being stable. then did an auto tune, and it would keep shooting 12 degrees high. gonna have to play around with the settings. just need to figure out what changes what.
did a small run and they all but 10 came out perfectly. this were running so smoothly it was scary. then i checked the pot temp with my other k type and volt meter. found a 20 degree difference. the pot was running colder. so put the changes into the controller and the temps now match on both. did another small run and they all went back into the pot. my flow had dropped off. did another calibration auto tune cycle. filled the pot back up and we'll see what the next run does.
the last auto tune seemed to be pretty stable on temp, but it seemed like it was struggling a bit to get to the setpoint before it would drop back down 6 degrees. i know some manual tweaking would probably clear this up. If it drives me to crazy, then i'll just reset to where the factory numbers were. weight checked last night's run and the majority were 27.2 grains. 3 of them were 27.0 grains. mould is finally adjusted properly and i didn't see much skirt flash finally. bottom pour is nice. the cycle rate is crazy. i think it took me maybe 30 min to cast out 100.
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So tonight my spout was dripping a lot and my flow was getting really slow. Even with constant cleaning. So I broke my pot down. My spout hole was pretty plugged up with oxides. Got the pot all cleaned up and out. Got my spout cleared out. Man does this thing flow lead now. Did a run of my 27.2 gr noe Hunter pellets and they all looked really good. Things are running way better now. Got the pot setup to run at 800°f on my next session to see how they do at that temp now that it's flowing the way it should.
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I'm still using the basics myself, 4lb pot, pure lead from Rotometals and a hooded ladle from the mid 70's. I've been shooting only my cast stuff for the past couple years now and couldn't be more happy. All my ammo is made right here in Michigan with molds that are built in Utah (NOE). My most recent casting was another run with the 250-27-RF and they were all between 25.9g and 26.22 grains. They're what I call my 26 grain Hunters and very comparable to the JSB 25.39's but heavier and softer.
(https://i.imgur.com/D4QiYVf.jpg)
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just weight checked mine. 26.8-27.0 gr. Love that variance. Manufacture's cant beat that per tin.
Anyone know if the new batch of NOE 250-27-rf hunters is dropping on spec?
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As long as they shoot straight enough. I cast more .249 slugs yesterday using the two other pins to see how they do. All were cast at 735° and that work well using the new NOE guide for the 4-20 pot.
I'm just trying to catch up to Wayne's success. I keep getting non-rounded looking bases. They roll fine when sized, but it's clear the end of the bases look like they have flat sides in places, or out of wack regardless of temps or methods used.
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Keith.
are you talking about the 249-37-rf mold not give good bases? If so, check that your sprue plate is level and not to tight on one end or the other. Also how fast do you cut your sprues off? i do mine with a 3 count of the sprue freezing up. longer than that and it get tough to cut it by hand. I quit using a mallet to do that and find better results doing it with a gloved hand.
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Keith.
are you talking about the 249-37-rf mold not give good bases? If so, check that your sprue plate is level and not to tight on one end or the other. Also how fast do you cut your sprues off? i do mine with a 3 count of the sprue freezing up. longer than that and it get tough to cut it by hand. I quit using a mallet to do that and find better results doing it with a gloved hand.
Yes, that's the mold. I didn't cut off the sprues any sooner than 15 seconds past in this round. I am always trying something different, but for this round I would primarily fill the slots and sit it on top of the pot while checking the previous four with a scale (this is after I get the mold temp up and get going good). I didn't get in a big hurry with pouring or cutting this time. Maybe that's the issue but I have went faster and more steady also with the same results. I use a rubber mallet and it takes two strikes typically.
I don't like my plate too loose to come back around and bite me with heat on the back of the hand. I don't generally wear gloves when casting (not good I know). I did loosen the plate more (very floppy now) about a quarter way through casting as the bases didn't look good and was trying something different there. They did look much better before ejecting them. I also cleaned the plate and mold surface while hot just to make sure. I also use lube on the plate hinge.
I did flip the sprue plate around when new because I am a lefty and wanted the NOE temp probe slot to connect opposite the handle end... Maybe I screwed up with that?
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temp probe slot????? I never seen this option on mine or even when i ordered it. i was hoping to get that with this mold. I try to cut my sprues the instant it freezes or just a sec after and i haven't noticed the cut pulling a flat spot of the 249 slugs. now the 250-27 hunter pellet mold of mine will do that if i'm not careful. but that is on the meplat edge.
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temp probe slot? ??? ? I never seen this option on mine or even when i ordered it. i was hoping to get that with this mold. I try to cut my sprues the instant it freezes or just a sec after and i haven't noticed the cut pulling a flat spot of the 249 slugs. now the 250-27 hunter pellet mold of mine will do that if i'm not careful. but that is on the meplat edge.
It's an option that reads "drill for probe" when ordering a mold. That option wasn't there when ordering this mold, so I put my request in the PayPal notes. NOE saw it because it came drilled for a temp probe. I have NOE's electronic temp gauge, so they know what size and depth the hole needs to be. I have all of mine drilled. It typically cost $5 more.
I'll keep working with the bases, or call NOE about it. I do cast another slug and don't have these base issues with that mold from NOE.
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well i tried a few changes since my pot is pouring better. lowered my temp down to 790 from 850. now i'm not sure whats going on. pellets still weigh in at .2 grains of variance. turned down temp due to a lot of whiskers on the pellets. that cleared up with the temp drop. but now my accuracy is gone, even after a deep clean on the barrel. not sure if its due to the slightly lighter pellet drop weight or if something is up with the scope. seems like when i adjust the scope it requires a few taps to get it moving. so that can't be good. almost like the erector tube is sticking.
shots on paper are scattered as well. not as tight as they were. And beyond 72 yards the pellets destabilize.
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figured out my issues. Bad batch of pellets. they look good but something isn't right with them. so they are going back into the pot and my temp is going back up. seeing alot of outside whiskers and inside base not filling out right at the pin (only on rear cavity) inside. I think the amount of flow i'm now getting is the cause of the outside whiskers.
Then second issue. my scope all the sudden has taken a dump. wont track or adjust as it should. have to tap it a few times with any adjustments made in order for it to change locations. NOt cool. Replacement scope should be inbound soon. Luckily i have it where it should be after trying a previous batch of pellets.
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I tried casting with 1% tin and get whisker's with my pot, eventually I'll get one that I can control the temp with, just a small 4lb pot. I cast everything with pure lead from Rotometals.
The one that I have now is an old Lee 275 watt.
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i just finished a batch at 825°F. still getting the occasional bad inner base, and both cavities were doing it this run. as long as i'm careful to cull them out, then roll test and they all hit as expected. weight is still down on them at 26.6-26.8 gr. still more experimenting to do to get them back where they were. but things are improving.
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I typically only get whiskers when pressure pouring at 850°. At 735° I haven't seen any whiskers. I stopped doing the pressure pour method as I prefer to coat the plate to keep the mold and plate temps up. Pressure pouring lets the mold cool down too quickly when aluminum. Probably a better deal with a brass mold. My only issue with the pellets is getting the meplat to cut clean and even. I don't know how critical that part is in flight.
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Scott are you thinking about doing some casting ?
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so here is the best pic of my latest defect that i'm dealing with.
I adjusted the pot back to 850. I can feel the heat coming off my mold through my glove so i know mold temp is about right. it would seem it is a cold pin issue??? but i don't know how that can be. I get a few good pours nice inner base then it will drop a few as pictured. I wonder if i should scrub the mold down again? I've tried smoking both the pins and the cavities and it doesn't seem to help any.
On another note. I talked to Al @ NOE. wanted to know if the latest batch off 250-27 hunters were dropping on spec. He's gonna check and let me know. If they are, I'm gonna pick up another mold. I also inquired into the 250-41-FN slugs. they are in the que to be done for resupply, but he couldn't give me a time line on them. That is my next slug I wanna try, as i think they would be really good in my Airforce condor I have on order.
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Have you polished the pins yet? I polished mine up so smooth I have problems picking them up with my old man fingers. The pellets fall off the pins with just a shake of the mould.
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No i haven't. But i also just found damage. Kinda bummed as now i got to get a new mold again. Right at the base of the front pin where it seats to form the bottom of the pellet mine is all worrbeld out and got a bad nick somehow on one spot right at the mold halves on the sprue plate side where the pin seats to seal the bottom. I always gently shake my mold upside down and slowly close it. so not sure how exactly it could have happened. I do recall dropping it on my rug, but was sure i didn't see any damage. I did have my rear pin go super tight on me as well last night while casting. knew something was up as pellets started getting harder to drop out in the back half cavity only. rear pin seat also shows sign of it starting to worrble out as well.
I got the new mold ordered. now i just hope this one is closer to spec. my current one was dropping .02" short.
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SUBSCRIBED
Scott are you thinking about doing some casting ?
I am thinking about it.
Reading threads like this fine one here.
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so here is the best pic of my latest defect that i'm dealing with.
I adjusted the pot back to 850. I can feel the heat coming off my mold through my glove so i know mold temp is about right. it would seem it is a cold pin issue??? but i don't know how that can be. I get a few good pours nice inner base then it will drop a few as pictured. I wonder if i should scrub the mold down again? I've tried smoking both the pins and the cavities and it doesn't seem to help any.
On another note. I talked to Al @ NOE. wanted to know if the latest batch off 250-27 hunters were dropping on spec. He's gonna check and let me know. If they are, I'm gonna pick up another mold. I also inquired into the 250-41-FN slugs. they are in the que to be done for resupply, but he couldn't give me a time line on them. That is my next slug I wanna try, as i think they would be really good in my Airforce condor I have on order.
You can put a very tiny amount of two cycle oil on the tips of the pins to help. I have noticed when I get mine too hot they will stick. They say the lead shrink's when it cools from being so hot. As mentioned previously, I cast my last batch of .249 slugs at 735°. I didn't have any slugs sticking to the pins not once. They fell right out each time. I didn't polish nor clean the pins or use any oil on the pins...Just started casting from the last run days ago.
I sold my 250-41-FN. I never could get those to shoot straight even after cutting off my choke on the Marauder. I also received PMs from knowledgeable people telling me they are no good, and that nobody has had any luck with them. All hearsay to me, but I know they're no good for groups in my particular Marauder. I was finally done with them after they wouldn't cycle in my FX mag either. Not their fault on that, but still a no go to keep around. Maybe you can get them to cooperate in your gun???
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No i haven't. But i also just found damage. Kinda bummed as now i got to get a new mold again. Right at the base of the front pin where it seats to form the bottom of the pellet mine is all worrbeld out and got a bad nick somehow on one spot right at the mold halves on the sprue plate side where the pin seats to seal the bottom. I always gently shake my mold upside down and slowly close it. so not sure how exactly it could have happened. I do recall dropping it on my rug, but was sure i didn't see any damage. I did have my rear pin go super tight on me as well last night while casting. knew something was up as pellets started getting harder to drop out in the back half cavity only. rear pin seat also shows sign of it starting to worrble out as well.
I got the new mold ordered. now i just hope this one is closer to spec. my current one was dropping .02" short.
Might have happened when you dropped it ☹️
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could be robert.
tiggertreat,
you may be onto something about the shrinkage. I think that may be whats going on. I had that same issue again when trying to cast up some more slugs. after cooling a bit they'd get a goofy indented circular spot on the outside and then it would cast ok, then get it again for a few, then clear up. I'm thinking its due to the lead being too hot. so gonna try a lower temp tonight and see if it clears up.
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ok. finally making some progress. Kinda! got a decent set of calipers that i can trust. checked them against micrometers and they both match. so i then checked my slug mold. Well cavities are nice and round, and at .250". Now how or what do i need to do to try and limit shrinkage? checked some of my different slugs playing with temps. slugs are all undersized. majority are .248" just a little out of round here and there.. this isn't good for accuracy.
Last cast session i noticed pulling in the corners when the sprues get cut. so I'm sure that is the out of round cause. wondering if I need to slightly open the sprue plate holes into the cavity or if that's not a good idea. Biggest thing it to getting the shrinkage amount limited. Do i need to go colder with lead or hotter yet to get more into the cavities and try to offset the shrink?
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My best weapon against shrink is a large puddle on top the sprue plate.
Difficult to achieve with fast flowing lead coming out of a bottom pour pot.
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new pellet mold arrived today. Hmm few changes. No longer do you get the blank pin. No issue there. Old pellets kinda fit in the new mold, except there is way more meat at the top sprue area. So the old pellets are short. Also old pellets don't fit the base pins. Short there as well maybe. I may have grabbed a short base pellet. hmm. Have to double check that tomorrow.
Got the first thermocycle in process. Doing cool down now. Burned up a cheap temp probe. Oops hit 395°F and went to 89.6 degrees. Opps. Found the limit for that probe. Now to find a probe that will fit and be comfortable to keep in place while casting. But then again touching the mold with my welding glove. I know I've never felt any of my molds get that hot. Quite warm, lol.
Guess I don't need to worry about my molds being too hot and now know I can really get them cranking. So it would appear I've been on the cooler side as far as the mold temp goes.
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My best weapon against shrink is a large puddle on top the sprue plate.
Difficult to achieve with fast flowing lead coming out of a bottom pour pot.
+1 I leave a large puddle on each pour and watch for it to drawn in leaving a dimple to indicate a full fill. This also keeps the cutter and the pins hot between cuts and refilling. I find that if I pause to cut the sprue for about 10 to 12 seconds, the mold really heats up well, and can adjust the pause or the opening of the mold based on the drops sticking or not. Basically broadly regulating the mold temp. Also, the large single sprue cut is easy to catch by hand and toss back into the pot.
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just checked the new pellet against the old. oh i'm a happy person. the old pellets were .284" -.285" long and weigh around 27.2 gr. the new ones are .3" and 27.8 - 28 gr. this was with 800*F lead temp. way closer to spec now. Now i hope my accuracy just got way tight with these now.
did a quick few clips on my slug tune. at 50 yards i could see several follow the same spot , just a touch high and left of my 1" target spinner. did get a couple to connect with my 6" steel target at 100 yards. I'm sure shooting these on my slug tune has them way over speed. but scope alignment isn't far off between the two.
edit:
new pellets are traveling at 878 FPS on the slug tune. oh man. Does this mean i just found the sweet spot for both slugs and pellets using the same tune? I think i did. I certainly hope so. then it will be just finding the difference for sighting in the pellets compared to the slugs. then I should be able to easily make a few scope click adjustments and go back an forth easily. This is what i've been hunting for...
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oh my... I think i finally found my holy grail settings. I have only a 10 click elevation adjustment to switch between slugs and pellets with my gauntlet...Finally got it dialed in. So lower left is slugs and so is upper left. others are the new pellets. mind you i didn't season or clean the barrel between projectiles. shot a clip of slug to pellets to slugs to pellets. only change was scope turret elevation of 10 clicks, back and forth between the two.
shows scope tracks pretty good. pellets really tightened up. but the other day was getting way tighter slugs groups, which i'm sure is from barrel needing to be cleaned again. kind of a accuracy torture test to jump back and forth.
target was at 33 yards which is the zero for both slugs and pellets.
slugs at 37 grain 795 Fps
pellets at 28 grain 878 Fps
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Cool! Looks like your hard work is paying off. That would be the ultimate goal to be able to switch between the two.