GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: chwillbill68 on April 06, 2020, 12:38:37 PM
-
Hello Guys. My Raptor leaks all of its air out. When I got it I shot about 4 mags no problem. Next time I go to shoot on the second mag it starts leaking. It leaked all the air from the tank. Travis gave me a trick to fill it fast and dry fire it with reg maxed out to blow anything in it out. I did this and after about the 5 dry fire it stopped leaking. I refilled to 3k psi and let it sit to see if it leaked. It did not. So today I started shooting and on the second mag it started leaking again. I removed the mag and dry fired several times no luck. Turned the reg way up and did it again. no luck.
So I tore it apart like the video Travis posted for us. I did not really see anything jump out as wrong that would cause this issue. I did find on the ninja reg that one of the set screws was not there. Not sure if that is due to it not having room under the mag holder/lower rail or not.
I also have a plastic ring that came out from inside the valve. I did not see that in Travis video.
-
Burnish the valve and put it all back together. Contact JSAR about missing grub screw. Why not send it in under warranty they will get it back to you quickly im sure.
-
The pic's above show the missing set screw on the ninja reg. there is one on each side, I took a pic of both. The other is of the inside of the valve. There is an oring in there that is hard to see. But that black spacer on the valve rod must rest on the oring and the brass part. Wondering if something is going wrong at the oring and spacer that is causing all my air to leak out.
-
Under that seat ring there should be an o-ring.
make sure every things clean, Lube the o-ring, and replace the seat and poppet stem. Install the thimble and circlip.
Now with a electric drill attach it to the protruding stem and with a fair amount of pulling pressure spin the stem both directions a couple times.
Assemble just the lower tube and check it. repeat if it does not seal.
-
Burnish the valve and put it all back together. Contact JSAR about missing grub screw. Why not send it in under warranty they will get it back to you quickly im sure.
I called and left message and emailed. But didn't get a response yet. So like you said in the video this gun is easy to work on and I want to shoot it. I figured it would be an easy fix. But don't really see anything wrong.
What do you mean by burnish the valve (the brass area that goes against the plastic ring)? Everything on the valve is super smooth. I don't feel any thing that would cause issue.
-
Under that seat ring there should be an o-ring.
make sure every things clean, Lube the o-ring, and replace the seat and poppet stem. Install the thimble and circlip.
Now with a electric drill attach it to the protruding stem and with a fair amount of pulling pressure spin the stem both directions a couple times.
Assemble just the lower tube and check it. repeat if it does not seal.
Thanks You. I will try that!
-
Burnish the valve and put it all back together. Contact JSAR about missing grub screw. Why not send it in under warranty they will get it back to you quickly im sure.
I called and left message and emailed. But didn't get a response yet. So like you said in the video this gun is easy to work on and I want to shoot it. I figured it would be an easy fix. But don't really see anything wrong.
What do you mean by burnish the valve (the brass area that goes against the plastic ring)? Everything on the valve is super smooth. I don't feel any thing that would cause issue.
Not surprised withe the COVID stuff having most companies closed.
-
Any time I’m lapping a poppet to a valve seat, I like to first mark both contact surfaces with a Sharpie (magic marker). When the spinning action removes the marker completely from both surfaces, you know they are capable of sealing. Unless the leak is very, very slight, I suggest using a light abrasive…something like a metal polishing paste. Nothing as coarse as valve grinding compound unless there’s a defect so large you can see it with the naked eye. I try to avoid generating so much heat that the plastic begins to melt, although if it’s a material like Delrin, that’s probably okay and expedient. I just prefer to avoid it based on some cursory knowledge that melting thermoplastics causes the polymer chains to shorten and makes the material less durable.
-
Any time I’m lapping a poppet to a valve seat, I like to first mark both contact surfaces with a Sharpie (magic marker). When the spinning action removes the marker completely from both surfaces, you know they are capable of sealing. Unless the leak is very, very slight, I suggest using a light abrasive…something like a metal polishing paste. Nothing as coarse as valve grinding compound unless there’s a defect so large you can see it with the naked eye. I try to avoid generating so much heat that the plastic begins to melt, although if it’s a material like Delrin, that’s probably okay and expedient. I just prefer to avoid it based on some cursory knowledge that melting thermoplastics causes the polymer chains to shorten and makes the material less durable.
NO ABRASIVES !!!
Seat is soft ACETAL and poppet Brass ... BOTH will embed the abrasive, DON'T do that !
Sorry jason ... ;) ;) ;)
-
Ah, good to know. I definitely don’t mind being corrected! The idea here is for everyone to learn.
-
Ah, good to know. I definitely don’t mind being corrected! The idea here is for everyone to learn.
So true! I learn something new every day.
-
I did what Scott said twice with no luck yet. I will keep trying and see if I can get it to seal.
-
I did what Scott said twice with no luck yet. I will keep trying and see if I can get it to seal.
That is the in shop technique ... Hopefully someone at JSAR will extend a helping hand ???
-
I did what Scott said twice with no luck yet. I will keep trying and see if I can get it to seal.
Is it a very slow leak? Take some fine grit sandpaper and lay it on a piece of glass and sand both sides of the seat disc till its got a smooth new surface and give that a go.
-
Maybe a little late but did you verify its the valve leaking? Balloon over barrel?
I have had mine apart and its super easy to work on to me. I had a leak between the O ring on the valve and tube that would empty the gun after a period of time. If you think its the valve to seat leaking burnishing as recommended above should work. I would inspect everything under a magnifying glass if you have one.
-
Burnish the valve and put it all back together. Contact JSAR about missing grub screw. Why not send it in under warranty they will get it back to you quickly im sure.
Wait I am confused. I thought oldpro owned jsar?
-
Burnish the valve and put it all back together. Contact JSAR about missing grub screw. Why not send it in under warranty they will get it back to you quickly im sure.
Wait I am confused. I thought oldpro owned jsar?
Negative Sir. Jacob ensign ownes JSAR and always has.
-
My mistake. I always see you on Instagram and youtube videos. You always speak about JSAR so passionately I assumed you were the owner. That's what I get for assuming.
-
My mistake. I always see you on Instagram and youtube videos. You always speak about JSAR so passionately I assumed you were the owner. That's what I get for assuming.
Common mistake. I did design a lot of it though so I do get a little excited about it.
-
Mine did the same today. I will take her apart after a little snooze. Old age ya know. LOL ;D
From what yo describe, I figured it was the valve poppet to seat area rather than the reg.hat they suggested works well.
I'm a little hard on mine. I put well over 500 31gr. slugs down range with it today. Man, I'm getting LOW on lead!
Knife
-
Abrasives for thee but not for me!
Oh okay, I see how it is ;D
-
I did what Scott said twice with no luck yet. I will keep trying and see if I can get it to seal.
Is it a very slow leak? Take some fine grit sandpaper and lay it on a piece of glass and sand both sides of the seat disc till its got a smooth new surface and give that a go.
No its a pretty fast leak. It doesn't take long to drain the tank. I will take a real good look at the disc and see if I can see anything. Its weird that it worked for a while the leaked and I did the dry fire like you said and it worked for a while then back to the leak.
-
Maybe a little late but did you verify its the valve leaking? Balloon over barrel?
I have had mine apart and its super easy to work on to me. I had a leak between the O ring on the valve and tube that would empty the gun after a period of time. If you think its the valve to seat leaking burnishing as recommended above should work. I would inspect everything under a magnifying glass if you have one.
I didn't get to the balloon test. But it was blowing out the barrel. Now while doing what Scott says to do it is blowing out the transfer port pretty fast. But when you push on the poppet it gets louder and more air blows out.
-
Mine did the same today. I will take her apart after a little snooze. Old age ya know. LOL ;D
From what yo describe, I figured it was the valve poppet to seat area rather than the reg.hat they suggested works well.
I'm a little hard on mine. I put well over 500 31gr. slugs down range with it today. Man, I'm getting LOW on lead!
Knife
Knife, Let me know what you figure out, maybe it will be what I need to do.
-
I did what Scott said twice with no luck yet. I will keep trying and see if I can get it to seal.
Is it a very slow leak? Take some fine grit sandpaper and lay it on a piece of glass and sand both sides of the seat disc till its got a smooth new surface and give that a go.
Travis what should I use to burnish the brass part of the valve?
-
I’m going on 1500 shots so far, so far so good. Hoping this doesn’t happen to my raptor.
-
Do the set screws op showed pics of need to be loosened before the reg is adjusted?
-
No, those set screws do not need to be loosened to turn the adjustable collar.
Only reason to loosen is if your taking the reg apart.
-
Holy smoke Knife that is a lot of shootin! I'm jealous, lol.
-
No, those set screws do not need to be loosened to turn the adjustable collar.
Only reason to loosen is if your taking the reg apart.
Thanks Jacob.
-
Holy smoke Knife that is a lot of shootin! I'm jealous, lol.
It wears me out, but is the only way I know to test different slugs. Shoot, test, shoot, test, But sure is a lot of fun compared to setting home. LOL ;D 8)
My little snooze ended up being an all niter. Time to tear her down and find the issue. Grrrrr!!!
-
Under that seat ring there should be an o-ring.
make sure every things clean, Lube the o-ring, and replace the seat and poppet stem. Install the thimble and circlip.
Now with a electric drill attach it to the protruding stem and with a fair amount of pulling pressure spin the stem both directions a couple times.
Assemble just the lower tube and check it. repeat if it does not seal.
Scott can you help me with this question pls? You see the plastic seat in my pic, that's the way that it came out of the valve. It has that small lip on it, but it doesn't go down into the oring. I tried putting the packing on the seat then slowly pushing it into the valve. But with the packing on it is to tight to slide down together. So I put the packing down lubed well and then put the seat down and tried to get it to pop into the oring but it doesn't seem to want to which make the seat move around a bit, which could be my issue maybe. Wondering if maybe I should flip the seat over and try it. or is there a trick to get the seat to lock into the oring.
Thanks Bill C!
-
Shop has a long tool that simply is a stepped shoulder the seat sits on, o-ring placed onto the seat around its shoulder & then slid down the body hole.
Yes the o-ring needs to sit on the seats shoulder and in your case perhaps placing a small chamfer on the inner edge of seat will help in getting the ring to go into the o-ring.
-
Is it possible the O ring has swollen preventing you from inserting the seat/o ring combo into the valve? I would try replacing the O ring if you have one of the correct size on hand.Then try assembling it again.
Does anybody have a complete list of O ring sizes for the gun? A complete list of size and location would be great?
-
Shop has a long tool that simply is a stepped shoulder the seat sits on, o-ring placed onto the seat around its shoulder & then slid down the body hole.
Yes the o-ring needs to sit on the seats shoulder and in your case perhaps placing a small chamfer on the inner edge of seat will help in getting the ring to go into the o-ring.
thanks Scott, I will try that.
-
I would return it for repair.
-
I would return it for repair.
Ditto
-
Is it possible the O ring has swollen preventing you from inserting the seat/o ring combo into the valve? I would try replacing the O ring if you have one of the correct size on hand.Then try assembling it again.
Does anybody have a complete list of O ring sizes for the gun? A complete list of size and location would be great?
Maybe, I don’t have many o rings to look for a match.
I have reached out to Jacob on the three ways I know of. Just need to wait for him at this point. No idea when that will be with this corvid- 19 stuff going on.
-
Bill, you have some incredible PCP’s in your Avatar. If you are unable to get it up and shooting soon, I’d do as Travis and the other Bill recommenced and send it in for repair. I just got mine back for a retrofitted adjustable regulator as mine came with the non adjustable regulator, they will take care of you! You do have some other fine shooting machines to keep you occupied for the time being 🤓.
-
JSAR is a contributing sponsor of this forum. I would try to reach them through the resources here. Post in the dealer's gate or whatever. I would think that our sponsors would want to show dedication to our members. Just as we have a responsibility as to who gets access to our members. This relationship should be a two way street.
-
JSAR is a contributing sponsor of this forum. I would try to reach them through the resources here. Post in the dealer's gate or whatever. I would think that our sponsors would want to show dedication to our members. Just as we have a responsibility as to who gets access to our members. This relationship should be a two way street.
+1 vendors gate is good option and there’s a thread there already
-
JSAR is a contributing sponsor of this forum. I would try to reach them through the resources here. Post in the dealer's gate or whatever. I would think that our sponsors would want to show dedication to our members. Just as we have a responsibility as to who gets access to our members. This relationship should be a two way street.
Ok sounds good, that’s one way I didn’t think of reaching out.
-
Bill, you have some incredible PCP’s in your Avatar. If you are unable to get it up and shooting soon, I’d do as Travis and the other Bill recommenced and send it in for repair. I just got mine back for a retrofitted adjustable regulator as mine came with the non adjustable regulator, they will take care of you! You do have some other fine shooting machines to keep you occupied for the time being 🤓.
Very true, I want to do more shooting with the Evol, but the trigger is very heavy and there is not any information out there on it either. Might have to just tear into it also and see what happens.
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
I am pretty sure that’s my issue. The o ring and seat will not stay together which is letting the plastic seat wobble or move and the poppet can’t seal tight enough.
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
I am pretty sure that’s my issue. The o ring and seat will not stay together which is letting the plastic seat wobble or move and the poppet can’t seal tight enough.
Heck, I thought Knifes computer blew an oring! ;D
Seriously though, let the guys at jsar get her running top notch for you. They may see something that your missing and catch a future problem.
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
I am pretty sure that’s my issue. The o ring and seat will not stay together which is letting the plastic seat wobble or move and the poppet can’t seal tight enough.
Heck, I thought Knifes computer blew an oring! ;D
Seriously though, let the guys at jsar get her running top notch for you. They may see something that your missing and catch a future problem.
+1 👍
-
Knife has the new computerized valve! :P
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
Knife do you know what size that o-ring is under the seat. Think I may order it and some ones very close from orings and more.
Thanks Bill C!
-
I'm afraid I Don't. I turned one down from one slightly too large in dia. last night made of poly. Too sick to try it today. GRRRR!!!
On Wife's computer right now. It quit last night as well. Double Grrrrrrr!!!
-
I'm afraid I Don't. I turned one down from one slightly too large in dia. last night made of poly. Too sick to try it today. GRRRR!!!
On Wife's computer right now. It quit last night as well. Double Grrrrrrr!!!
Hope you feel better soon!
-
Thanks!
Knife
-
Knife, you don't think you have "IT" do ya ??? I hope not. Get to feelin better soon. ;)
-
Knife, you don't think you have "IT" do ya ??? I hope not. Get to feelin better soon. ;)
Cooter, bite your tongue... :o feel better Knife.
-
What is the chance of a leak between the plastic seat and the valve body?.... Is it just sitting in place on the O-ring, or pressed in?.... If HPA can get behind the O-ring it may be popping loose?.... Just a thought....
Bob
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
Although not a raptor, mine for my Marauder(SS2 Valve) did the exact same thing. I changed out the internals and it worked briefly and then same thing started happening again. Now it’s just an expensive paper weight sitting around. I know the disappointment feeling far too well.
Peter
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
Although not a raptor, mine for my Marauder(SS2 Valve) did the exact same thing. I changed out the internals and it worked briefly and then same thing started happening again. Now it’s just an expensive paper weight sitting around. I know the disappointment feeling far too well.
Peter
I'm dealing with the same issue with an SS2. I'm not convinced it's the poppet to seat connection. I have polished the poppet, and the seat looks very clean and smooth. Next I'll see if I can pull the seat and look around for something else.
-
Sorry I'm late., late. my computer died last night. I found the issue. The o ring in the balance chamber was tattered. I put a new o ring in but it did it again GRRRRR!!!!
Knife
Although not a raptor, mine for my Marauder(SS2 Valve) did the exact same thing. I changed out the internals and it worked briefly and then same thing started happening again. Now it’s just an expensive paper weight sitting around. I know the disappointment feeling far too well.
Peter
I'm dealing with the same issue with an SS2. I'm not convinced it's the poppet to seat connection. I have polished the poppet, and the seat looks very clean and smooth. Next I'll see if I can pull the seat and look around for something else.
I’m of the same belief Keith. I’ve spent so many hrs and spent slugs on this valve, it just boils my blood to even think about it. Let’s just say, lesson learned.
Peter
-
What is the chance of a leak between the plastic seat and the valve body?.... Is it just sitting in place on the O-ring, or pressed in?.... If HPA can get behind the O-ring it may be popping loose?.... Just a thought....
Bob
I believe that it is to be a somewhat tight fit. Meaning the oring stays on the plastic seat then they both sit tight together and flat in the valve. But I can't push the two together down into the valve with out the oring popping off. I have tried to push the seat into place down in the valve and I just can't seem to get them to do it. So the plastic seat does wobble around a bit, which like you say is probably where the air is getting past.
I have tomorrow off and plan to take it back apart and get a measurement on that oring and then try to find it and ones close but above and below in size to order and try them until I can get them to stay together down in there. But I may have already messed up the seat, since I did a little sanding to the lip where the oring goes trying to make it smaller so they would stay together.
Jacob said he would send me those parts, so I am just going to mess with what I have until they come to try and get it working.
I have learned a lot about this gun while doing all this. It is a very easy gun to work on so far.
-
The oring goes in first then the seat simply sets on top of it with bevel down, The pressure when added to the cyclindetr pushes the seat down and seals up the valve its a floating seat and works quite well. Almost 95% of all leaks happen between the poppet and seat. Because there is 60% less clamping force small variations can cause leaks. Almost all the leaks Ive seen have come from debris from filling or corrosion from poor water separation.
-
Travis, my issue is the o ring in the thimble. What is the proper size and hardness?
-
Travis, my issue is the o ring in the thimble. What is the proper size and hardness?
Are you sure I’ve never seen that oring fail ever.
-
It was tattered. LOL! More worried about the db.
Mike
-
It was tattered. LOL! More worried about the db.
Mike
How did it get tattered trapped up in the thimblein its groove? Still never seen one fail but not saying it cant happen just saying i havent seen it. Drop down was sent out last week.
-
I have a sneeky idea how it happened. Corrected and will send pm. My fault entirely! Still need size and confirm Duro.
Mike
-
Alrighty guys I received my raptor HP .257 last week! Beautiful gun, love the fit and finish..: but it’s leaking. About 1200 psi over a 24 hour period; very slow leak. What can I do to remedy this? Thanks!
-
Alrighty guys I received my raptor HP .257 last week! Beautiful gun, love the fit and finish..: but it’s leaking. About 1200 psi over a 24 hour period; very slow leak. What can I do to remedy this? Thanks!
Where is the gun leaking? That helps alot! Do a bubble test on all points where the o-ring are located, pressure gauge, fill nipple, etc. also ballon test on the barrel no shroud attached. You need to pinpoint where the gun leaks at and address it.
-
I think I solved the issue with the o ring in the thimble. I have some Super Lube here that was supposed to be silicone grease and Teflon. However I was suspicious and ran down the numbers on the tube. It was NOT as sold, but rather a highly refined clear grease with Teflon.
This would lead me to strongly suspect possible detonation in the thimble itself. Not Good!!! >:(
As soon as I can I will order silicone grease again. I do have up to 100 wt here in the shop. It should suffice until I can get some divers grease.
the thimble is very well polished in side and it (detonation) is the only thing I can think of that would destroy an o ring is such a manner.
Certainly not an issue with the JSAR assembly what so ever.
Knife
-
I think I solved the issue with the o ring in the thimble. I have some Super Lube here that was supposed to be silicone grease and Teflon. However I was suspicious and ran down the numbers on the tube. It was NOT as sold, but rather a highly refined clear grease with Teflon.
This would lead me to strongly suspect possible detonation in the thimble itself. Not Good!!! >:(
As soon as I can I will order silicone grease again. I do have up to 100 wt here in the shop. It should suffice until I can get some divers grease.
the thimble is very well polished in side and it (detonation) is the only thing I can think of that would destroy an o ring is such a manner.
Certainly not an issue with the JSAR assembly what so ever.
Knife
Let us know what size it is when you find out. I want to add it to my oring list.
-
I think I solved the issue with the o ring in the thimble. I have some Super Lube here that was supposed to be silicone grease and Teflon. However I was suspicious and ran down the numbers on the tube. It was NOT as sold, but rather a highly refined clear grease with Teflon.
This would lead me to strongly suspect possible detonation in the thimble itself. Not Good!!! >:(
As soon as I can I will order silicone grease again. I do have up to 100 wt here in the shop. It should suffice until I can get some divers grease.
the thimble is very well polished in side and it (detonation) is the only thing I can think of that would destroy an o ring is such a manner.
Certainly not an issue with the JSAR assembly what so ever.
Knife
They were using KRYTOX grease on the thimbles. I have been using Lubiplate GR-132 with very good results.
-
I think I solved the issue with the o ring in the thimble. I have some Super Lube here that was supposed to be silicone grease and Teflon. However I was suspicious and ran down the numbers on the tube. It was NOT as sold, but rather a highly refined clear grease with Teflon.
This would lead me to strongly suspect possible detonation in the thimble itself. Not Good!!! >:(
As soon as I can I will order silicone grease again. I do have up to 100 wt here in the shop. It should suffice until I can get some divers grease.
the thimble is very well polished in side and it (detonation) is the only thing I can think of that would destroy an o ring is such a manner.
Certainly not an issue with the JSAR assembly what so ever.
Knife
They were using KRYTOX grease on the thimbles. I have been using Lubiplate GR-132 with very good results.
Great stuff Scott. Sadly, a little out of my price range. :(
-
I think I solved the issue with the o ring in the thimble. I have some Super Lube here that was supposed to be silicone grease and Teflon. However I was suspicious and ran down the numbers on the tube. It was NOT as sold, but rather a highly refined clear grease with Teflon.
This would lead me to strongly suspect possible detonation in the thimble itself. Not Good!!! >:(
As soon as I can I will order silicone grease again. I do have up to 100 wt here in the shop. It should suffice until I can get some divers grease.
the thimble is very well polished in side and it (detonation) is the only thing I can think of that would destroy an o ring is such a manner.
Certainly not an issue with the JSAR assembly what so ever.
Knife
They were using KRYTOX grease on the thimbles. I have been using Lubiplate GR-132 with very good results.
Great stuff Scott. Sadly, a little out of my price range. :(
Found a product called Ultimox on Amazon, so far it is still in place after inspecting thimbles after 100 rounds or so.....
-
Thanks, I' check it out now!
-
Thanks, I' check it out now!
Mike your message box is full , clear it out some ,you have some incoming ... ;D ;D ;D
-
Thanks, I' check it out now!
Mike your message box is full , clear it out some ,you have some incoming ... ;D ;D ;D
Done and done! ;) Just installed a new computer. Whew, a LOT to learn!!!
-
Thanks, I' check it out now!
Mike your message box is full , clear it out some ,you have some incoming ... ;D ;D ;D
Done and done! ;) Just installed a new computer. Whew, a LOT to learn!!!
Computers can be a big pain in the arse !!! I recently had to revamp mine as well Michael, the ole hard drive that was in it finally gave up.
-
Thanks, I' check it out now!
Mike your message box is full , clear it out some ,you have some incoming ... ;D ;D ;D
GRRRRR!!! Yep, but my old XP did give great service for over 15 years without a hitch, so I bought HP again. Now I need to find someone who can transfer the pic's in it to the new Hp. Lots of more space in it for them and many, many more. It claims to be able to hold well over a million pics. Woo-H00!!!
Done and done! ;) Just installed a new computer. Whew, a LOT to learn!!!
Computers can be a big pain in the arse !!! I recently had to revamp mine as well Michael, the ole hard drive that was in it finally gave up.
-
Alrighty guys I received my raptor HP .257 last week! Beautiful gun, love the fit and finish..: but it’s leaking. About 1200 psi over a 24 hour period; very slow leak. What can I do to remedy this? Thanks!
Felipe, were you about to narrow it down at all with the tips listed? I would believe its a oring somewhere but which one?
-
Alrighty guys I received my raptor HP .257 last week! Beautiful gun, love the fit and finish..: but it’s leaking. About 1200 psi over a 24 hour period; very slow leak. What can I do to remedy this? Thanks!
Felipe, were you about to narrow it down at all with the tips listed? I would believe its a oring somewhere but which one?
haven’t had time to sit down and tinker nor do I have the knowledge of airguns to begin iddaasembly... or even the want to tinker with it. Unfortunately I’ll probably have to learn at some point soon if I want to get this rifle running tip top shape.
-
Thanks, I' check it out now!
Mike your message box is full , clear it out some ,you have some incoming ... ;D ;D ;D
Done and done! ;) Just installed a new computer. Whew, a LOT to learn!!!
Computers can be a big pain in the arse !!! I recently had to revamp mine as well Michael, the ole hard drive that was in it finally gave up.
Two words: Linux + RAID1 8)
-
Any info you guys can share with me is much appreciated, I’m waiting on a response from Jacob but he’s always busy so I’m not holding my breath, tryng to get this figured out ASAP !
-
Been near 2 weeks and no returned call or contact reciprocated ???
Unacceptable ...
whats the issue again ?
-
Well I got the parts today from Jacob. I replaced them in the valve and put it all back together. I put some air in it and it held. No leak in the valve. I put the gun all the way back together and got the scope sited in with the new FX rings. Then I started shooting some rounds trying to get things broke in. It really shoots these cheap pellets well. Once it is broke in I think it will really do great things with the JSB's.
Any way about 8 mags into my shooting I was having a reloading issue. It took me about 20 minutes to figure out that the probe had come loose from the cocking mechanism. I had to get a cleaning rod and push the probe out and then remove the magazine. I got it figured out. So glad to have this bad boy up and running again.
Bill C!
-
Bill, so GLAD you got the parts and got it up and SHOOTING! I am thoroughly enjoying mine in .22 now that I had the adjustable regulator installed! Enjoy sir! 🤓
-
Does anyone know the size of the o-ring inside the regulator? My regulator is leaking at the adjustment collar and I suspect it's caused by the o-ring on the brass stem. It's close to size 008 but being squishy they're hard to measure accurately. It's an off-white clear color, maybe silicone or polyurethane?
Dino
-
It uses a Ninja piston like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/GAsBpGN.jpg)
If so, yes a -008 polyurethane on the narrow part, 90 durometer. -012 on the top side, also 90 durometer.
-
Jason is correct 8-12 number orings in poly. The plungers however are very different.
-
Does anyone know the O-ring size of the SS2 valve seat?
-
I still don't understand why there is no user manual, or list of o ring sizes. Never seen this with any other platform. Seems a little slipshod to me.
Now on to the leaking issue. I found an issue and have corrected it.
Travis suggested that at my power levels with slugs it might be to my advantage to shoot the gun with the valve in a more normal configuration. In other words, not using the balance chamber as such. I made a poppet with a solid stem and put a heavier spring "over" the poppet extension that normally goes in the chamber. It is a stronger cut down Maximus spring. This has ended theleak completely.
Now to carry the thinking further, I would seem the light pressure in a balanced valve keeping the valve poppet against the seat simply is not enough at higher fpe numbers. Doing this conversion puts much more pressure on the poppet to seat.
Seems that by increasing the spring pressure in the actual balance chamber would do the same. I am getting no leaks in the non balanced chamber version,k however, needing a much stronger hammer spring, it is very stiff cocking and the fps is not equal to the balanced chamber configuration.
Next I will go back to a balanced chamber set up, and put a second light spring on the thimble against the top of the balance chamber to add pressure to the poppet to seat.
I think going to the non balanced configuration for a short time has revealed the issue very strongly. Simply not enough spring to keep the poppet to seat pressure high enough.
to further illustrate this, one coil snapped off the inner spring in the chamber. The loss of one coil was enough to keep the poppet sealed. It is that much on the edge of not being enough pressure on it. Kinda tells the tell.
We need more spring pressure in the thimble particularly in higher fpe configurations. . ;)
Knife
-
I still don't understand why there is no user manual, or list of o ring sizes. Never seen this with any other platform. Seems a little slipshod to me.
Now on to the leaking issue. I found an issue and have corrected it.
Travis suggested that at my power levels with slugs it might be to my advantage to shoot the gun with the valve in a more normal configuration. In other words, not using the balance chamber as such. I made a poppet with a solid stem and put a heavier spring "over" the poppet extension that normally goes in the chamber. It is a stronger cut down Maximus spring. This has ended theleak completely.
Now to carry the thinking further, I would seem the light pressure in a balanced valve keeping the valve poppet against the seat simply is not enough at higher fpe numbers. Doing this conversion puts much more pressure on the poppet to seat.
Seems that by increasing the spring pressure in the actual balance chamber would do the same. I am getting no leaks in the non balanced chamber version,k however, needing a much stronger hammer spring, it is very stiff cocking and the fps is not equal to the balanced chamber configuration.
Next I will go back to a balanced chamber set up, and put a second light spring on the thimble against the top of the balance chamber to add pressure to the poppet to seat.
I think going to the non balanced configuration for a short time has revealed the issue very strongly. Simply not enough spring to keep the poppet to seat pressure high enough.
to further illustrate this, one coil snapped off the inner spring in the chamber. The loss of one coil was enough to keep the poppet sealed. It is that much on the edge of not being enough pressure on it. Kinda tells the tell.
We need more spring pressure in the thimble particularly in higher fpe configurations. . ;)
Knife
Or a different balance ratio that puts a bit more pressure on sealing against a peek surface...peek doesn't do well at very low sealing forces and needs its surface to be impeccable and very true to whatever it mates to, to seal well...
I wouldn't know the ratio or the forces the poppet sees at various pressures so I cannot state this to be the case for sure...
You can run a slightly larger poppet to offset the over balance in the valve if it is an issue.
Or as you mentioned run more spring in the balance chamber but that chamber should be tiny and very limited in space / spring rating which would need redesigned to the likes of motorheads v2 of this valve to accommodate much stiffer springs. JMO.
Peek works best with VERY small sealing margins as this material basically just doesn't compress, and running paper thin margins to the likes of .015"-.025" help peek seal. Its compressive strength is to the likes of 25,000 psi and doesn't yield until 16,000 psi.
-
To that note, I put 3200 psi against my SS2 and it still leaks. I still need the valve seat O-ring size if any one will help out here.
-
To that note, I put 3200 psi against my SS2 and it still leaks. I still need the valve seat O-ring size if any one will help out here.
Were you unable to measure the original? Only need its cs if you have a way to measure its groove, I have no clue if the peek seat has any groove that would make this easy, if the only groove is within the valve well then, time to glue some extenders on some calipers and get to measuring.
-
Well, the O-ring is pretty messed up. It came out oblong from the factory, plus all my drill spinning. I was hoping those that are clearly in the know would help out with the size real quick. After all they are still air gunners at the core I would still like to think, and we typically help each other out. If I have to go it alone, I can do that, too.
-
Jason and Travis,
Thank you for sharing the information, much appreciated by me and everyone else too!
I don't know why my disassembly stopped just before pulling the plunger out. Turns out there was some white powdery substance at the bottom there. Cleaned it up and it seems my leak is resolved. Fingers crossed. I'm going to order o-rings anyway just in case.
While I'm at it I might as well get the o-ring for the bottle threads (015??) and the breech seals for 22 and 25 (no idea what size those are, anyone?)
JSAR, if you're listening, a manual and o-ring list are sorely needed!
Dino
-
I still don't understand why there is no user manual, or list of o ring sizes. Never seen this with any other platform. Seems a little slipshod to me.
Now on to the leaking issue. I found an issue and have corrected it.
Travis suggested that at my power levels with slugs it might be to my advantage to shoot the gun with the valve in a more normal configuration. In other words, not using the balance chamber as such. I made a poppet with a solid stem and put a heavier spring "over" the poppet extension that normally goes in the chamber. It is a stronger cut down Maximus spring. This has ended theleak completely.
Now to carry the thinking further, I would seem the light pressure in a balanced valve keeping the valve poppet against the seat simply is not enough at higher fpe numbers. Doing this conversion puts much more pressure on the poppet to seat.
Seems that by increasing the spring pressure in the actual balance chamber would do the same. I am getting no leaks in the non balanced chamber version,k however, needing a much stronger hammer spring, it is very stiff cocking and the fps is not equal to the balanced chamber configuration.
Next I will go back to a balanced chamber set up, and put a second light spring on the thimble against the top of the balance chamber to add pressure to the poppet to seat.
I think going to the non balanced configuration for a short time has revealed the issue very strongly. Simply not enough spring to keep the poppet to seat pressure high enough.
to further illustrate this, one coil snapped off the inner spring in the chamber. The loss of one coil was enough to keep the poppet sealed. It is that much on the edge of not being enough pressure on it. Kinda tells the tell.
We need more spring pressure in the thimble particularly in higher fpe configurations. . ;)
Knife
Or a different balance ratio that puts a bit more pressure on sealing against a peek surface...peek doesn't do well at very low sealing forces and needs its surface to be impeccable and very true to whatever it mates to, to seal well...
I wouldn't know the ratio or the forces the poppet sees at various pressures so I cannot state this to be the case for sure...
You can run a slightly larger poppet to offset the over balance in the valve if it is an issue.
Or as you mentioned run more spring in the balance chamber but that chamber should be tiny and very limited in space / spring rating which would need redesigned to the likes of motorheads v2 of this valve to accommodate much stiffer springs. JMO.
Peek works best with VERY small sealing margins as this material basically just doesn't compress, and running paper thin margins to the likes of .015"-.025" help peek seal. Its compressive strength is to the likes of 25,000 psi and doesn't yield until 16,000 psi.
The Raptors valve uses no Peek. The poppet body is brass, and the seat is delrin. No peek in the system. ;)
-
Well, the O-ring is pretty messed up. It came out oblong from the factory, plus all my drill spinning. I was hoping those that are clearly in the know would help out with the size real quick. After all they are still air gunners at the core I would still like to think, and we typically help each other out. If I have to go it alone, I can do that, too.
Keith, I have a spare or two. I will measure now.
Knife/Mike
-
I've seen that white powdery substance in new regulators before. I have no idea what it is. Can't say I've ever been able to attribute it to a problem but I've already been into most regulators before they ever get pressurized and I clean and lubricate before reassembly.
Regarding the ASA fitting, yes you can use either a -015 or -016. 70 durometer is fine although in most cases the tolerancing and workmanship will allow the use of a 90 durometer without concern of it getting nicked on assembly.
-
Keith,
Here are the measurements I got manually. The o ring that goes under the seat measures CS of 1.45 mm or .0570 inch.
OD of 12.90 MM or .508 Inch.
Please keep in mind that I am old, slightly senile and dyslexic so it may be off a tiny bit. ;) ;D
Or Not. ::)
Mike/Knife
-
Balance ratio can be tuned by increasing/decreasing diameter of the valve throat/sealing surface. I use this as a tool in tuning my Cothran valves.....
-
Jason is correct 8-12 number orings in poly. The plungers however are very different.
I like the looks of that plunger, the large shoulder looks like it should do a much better job of keeping the plunger parallel to the bore.....orings should last longer and it should be much more consistent than a standard reg.
-
1.5mm x 10 or an 11 works as well
-
Keith,
Here are the measurements I got manually. The o ring that goes under the seat measures CS of 1.45 mm or .0570 inch.
OD of 12.90 MM or .508 Inch.
Please keep in mind that I am old, slightly senile and dyslexic so it may be off a tiny bit. ;) ;D
Or Not. ::)
Mike/Knife
Thanks for taking the time Michael and Scott. I should be able to find replacements with that.
-
You are very welcome Keith, and thank you much Scott! 90 D OK? The replacements seem very soft. I'm thinking the harder D would work well for those of us running higher pressures. No?
Mike
-
You are very welcome Keith, and thank you much Scott! 90 D OK? The replacements seem very soft. I'm thinking the harder D would work well for those of us running higher pressures. No?
Mike
Hate getting back into this being I no longer have any affiliation with JSAR .... If your working with the NEWER seat style that uses a Tapered poppet sealing surface ? the seat in cross section is an L shape. If using 90 duro the seat is going to have a harder time getting into the I.D. of o-ring due to being much harder. A slight bevel on the edge that goes into o-rings I.D. may help here ?
-
I wonder if one could remove that o-ring and the peak or delrin seat (I've heard some have peek, but knifes had delrin, so IDK)...and just remake the poppet into peek, would that even be an option without requiring re-machining beyond maybe just flattening it down some? If the o-ring in question sits below seat and is compressed via force against seat and poppet, then this o-ring needs to go IMO. (it requires more hammer strike to get the lift needed to compensate for when poppet lifts and o-ring decompresses.)...how much that is depends on how much squeeze that o-ring is seeing...
-
I wonder if one could remove that o-ring and the peak or delrin seat (I've heard some have peek, but knifes had delrin, so IDK)...and just remake the poppet into peek, would that even be an option without requiring re-machining beyond maybe just flattening it down some? If the o-ring in question sits below seat and is compressed via force against seat and poppet, then this o-ring needs to go IMO. (it requires more hammer strike to get the lift needed to compensate for when poppet lifts and o-ring decompresses.)...how much that is depends on how much squeeze that o-ring is seeing...
Sadly NO .... the balance chamber end of poppet contains an O-ring Groove and the vent hole from stem passes threw the root of the o-ring groove. The pressure within the valve is trying to rip the end off the poppet off as it is ... peek is strong JUST NOT THAT STRONG and it won't hold up !
I've tried and it failed :P
Pic shows a JSAR style poppet end made of aluminum, next to one made of PEEK w/o a vent hole. It too was failure prone and why i redesigned the valve to be inverted where the portion within chamber no longer needs the vent hole threw the o-ring root and make it from aluminum.
-
Well shucks...Was the version two with the poppet bored out for balance chamber using a different valve body as I recall that poppet being full delrin.
A full poppet/thimble redesign, smaller balance ( .22"~ chamber giving a bit more force on valve for easier sealing), with larger ID o-ring , to allow more space for vent to pass through, along with putting the o-ring (ideally xring) in a more promising location like .2"~ away from the balanced end, as well as having an extrusion of only .002-.003" should keep the o-ring from blowing out or failing...but that is a lot of redesign :)
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)
Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?
-
I'am still testing the ss valve which is currently converted to a typical valve. It is very predictable, and NO Leaks!
I will admit though, it is hard to cock!
It has the spring on the outside of the poppet riding on the balance chamber part of the poppet. I will test this setup shortly by using it with the balance chamber as well. I should allow me to add enough tension to the poppet to stop the leaks! ;)
Knife
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)
Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?
Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ? The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)
Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?
Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ? The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.
Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.
-
Scott, I remember a while back a member was making (for personal use) a concave poppet rather than the convex such as we see in the Raptor poppet. I wanted to try it but kinda, sorta, chickened out. LOL! :-[ ;D
The member was RKR.
Good Stuff Scott!
Mike
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)
Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?
Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ? The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.
Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.
I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal. It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)
Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?
Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ? The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.
Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.
I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal. It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.
QC issue with JSAR on a Run of valve bodies where the interior area of throat was machined too deep. In turn an insert was manufactured, glued / hammered in and then throat reamed and transfer port hole drilled. These bodies nearly all leaked if not for the o-ring sealed seat that captured the O.D. of seats area creating a perimeter seat to body / body to insert.
* This ONLY on BLACK ANODIZED valve bodies I ever saw ??? .... If you look into valves interior and see the throat area is bare / silver aluminum it has the insert.
Just FYI from seeing it first hand ...
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)
Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?
Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ? The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.
Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.
I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal. It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.
QC issue with JSAR on a Run of valve bodies where the interior area of throat was machined too deep. In turn an insert was manufactured, glued / hammered in and then throat reamed and transfer port hole drilled. These bodies nearly all leaked if not for the o-ring sealed seat that captured the O.D. of seats area creating a perimeter seat to body / body to insert.
* This ONLY on BLACK ANODIZED valve bodies I ever saw ??? .... If you look into valves interior and see the throat area is bare / silver aluminum it has the insert.
Just FYI from seeing it first hand ...
All shiny in mine...
-
Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better! ;)
Knife/Mike
-
Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better! ;)
Knife/Mike
Mine is one Travis sent me just prior to retiring. I don't know what rev it is, but it is a SS2 with one stiction O-ring, and all aluminum with no black colors. I did buy one, and tested many prototypes for him, but never had one that didn't leak at the poppet ,SS1 or SS2. I was always hopeful though.
-
Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal. Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.
Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)
Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?
Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ? The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.
Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.
I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal. It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.
QC issue with JSAR on a Run of valve bodies where the interior area of throat was machined too deep. In turn an insert was manufactured, glued / hammered in and then throat reamed and transfer port hole drilled. These bodies nearly all leaked if not for the o-ring sealed seat that captured the O.D. of seats area creating a perimeter seat to body / body to insert.
* This ONLY on BLACK ANODIZED valve bodies I ever saw ??? .... If you look into valves interior and see the throat area is bare / silver aluminum it has the insert.
Just FYI from seeing it first hand ...
Thanks for pointing that out Scott. It gives customers an idea of where the problems may arise knowing that bandaid fix. I hate half @$$ed work. Then left to solve it yourself. >:(
Peter
-
Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better! ;)
Knife/Mike
Not a happy camper reading this.
-
Well, its good to see the truth come to light on the valves hiccups through production...requiring band-aids that certainly aren't going to hold up, and a work around to support said band-aid that introduces problems of its own, never mind the original problem the hiccup created (adhesive prone to leaking over time).
Adhesive may hold up for a while, but gassing and degassing causes a lot of expansion and contraction, which fatigues materials such as metals, but even more so...adhesives. Big no no.
To be honest, its shameful that they did the above...I can't defend it in any way shape or form...you cut your losses, and correct the issue with absolute precision and professionalism.
-
Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better! ;)
Knife/Mike
Not a happy camper reading this.
Keith, both of the springs that are inside(two different valves) broke one coil off the end. This is when the leaking started with the second new style valve. By simply fitting a short spring, (Lower power maximus spring about 5 coils long against the poppet head and seated on the front of the balance chamber has stopped this entirely.
I am running it with a solid poppet stem, so no balance chamber doing anything at this point. Next I will make a better poppet stem from s-7 tool steel and try[size=78%] the balance chamber again. [/size]
Travis stated that the stem should not bread, as they are tool steel. Well, As some of you know, I have studied metallurgy for many years. I tested the stems that were breaking where the thru hole crosses the stem to allow the air to enter the balance chambers.
They are either 303 or 316 as far as I can tell, which is a non heat treatable low grade of stainless. Think Pot and Pan material here. Nothing more than the stainless equivalent of cold rolled low carbon steel. Very week!
S-7 is a high grade shock resisting steel. I have 0-1 here, but it likes to warp in small sections when it hits the quenching oil.
So far I have made one stem from it but not heat treated. Even in its non heat treated condition, it is far superior to low carbon stainless. And this is certainly not in its prime condition. Heat treat and triple temper and it should last a life time+!
Mike
-
I don't know if the mechanics are different in a meaningful way but I've used standard threadlocker to seal HPA parts a number of times and those interfaces have all proven reliable over time. That includes both straight threads and tapered threads, and slip-fit parts.
-
I don't know if the mechanics are different in a meaningful way but I've used standard threadlocker to seal HPA parts a number of times and those interfaces have all proven reliable over time. That includes both straight threads and tapered threads, and slip-fit parts.
Thats fine for personal assembly, but no gun should come from a factory in said shape. As I said, if you understand how expansion, contraction, and the micro fracture growth that occur during said events works, then you wouldn't manufacturer to those needs...
I also use threadlocker on my external plenum due to its seal basically requiring it, and guess what, from time to time, after a number of degas/gasses, it leaks...I re-apply / let cure, and its good...until it reoccurs, which it will.
-
Also, we're not talking externally accessible threading that needs sealant, we're talking an inner, deep valve throat that if / when fails and leaks, will be an absolute, nightmare to remedy...
-
Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better! ;)
Knife/Mike
Not a happy camper reading this.
Keith, both of the springs that are inside(two different valves) broke one coil off the end. This is when the leaking started with the second new style valve. By simply fitting a short spring, (Lower power maximus spring about 5 coils long against the poppet head and seated on the front of the balance chamber has stopped this entirely.
I am running it with a solid poppet stem, so no balance chamber doing anything at this point. Next I will make a better poppet stem from s-7 tool steel and try the balance chamber again.
Travis stated that the stem should not bread, as they are tool steel. Well, As some of you know, I have studied metallurgy for many years. I tested the stems that were breaking where the thru hole crosses the stem to allow the air to enter the balance chambers.
They are either 303 or 316 as far as I can tell, which is a non heat treatable low grade of stainless. Think Pot and Pan material here. Nothing more than the stainless equivalent of cold rolled low carbon steel. Very week!
S-7 is a high grade shock resisting steel. I have 0-1 here, but it likes to warp in small sections when it hits the quenching oil.
So far I have made one stem from it but not heat treated. Even in its non heat treated condition, it is far superior to low carbon stainless. And this is certainly not in its prime condition. Heat treat and triple temper and it should last a life time+!
Mike
Thanks Mike! I'll revisit my valve at some point and can try that. Although I should really give up on it, I don't like giving up...
-
Thanks Mike! I'll revisit my valve at some point and can try that. Although I should really give up on it, I don't like giving up...
If you're really up for the task, try Motorheads v2 of the balanced valve. I think you will be quite pleased by including your own craftsmanship into the valve. Could be a fun project.
I agree with Knife on the stem, valve stems should be made from hardened, heat treated alloys. I have found great success with HSS drill bit blanks for poppet stems. I am sure there are even better alternatives but they work for me without any additional treatments.
-
Thanks Mike! I'll revisit my valve at some point and can try that. Although I should really give up on it, I don't like giving up...
If you're really up for the task, try Motorheads v2 of the balanced valve. I think you will be quite pleased by including your own craftsmanship into the valve. Could be a fun project.
I agree with Knife on the stem, valve stems should be made from hardened, heat treated alloys. I have found great success with HSS drill bit blanks for poppet stems. I am sure there are even better alternatives but they work for me without any additional treatments.
Yep Matt, hss would have been the easy way., Sadly, not one of mine out of a few hundred have a long enough shaft. GRRRRR!!
I have replaced the poppet stems in most of my other ag's with hss drill bit shafts. Cheap, and already properly heat treated. No where as tough as S-7, but still darned stout!
I need to post pic's of what I have done with the valve and how the spring is anchored.
I redesigned some of the slugs I have been shooting in it, and 5 shot groups at 80 yards are hovering from .162 to .248 ctc for the biggest. Deadly accurate. Two Squirrels and three pest birds today at 50 to 80 yd's. Love the accuracy of the little Mini Raptor.
-
Thanks Mike! I'll revisit my valve at some point and can try that. Although I should really give up on it, I don't like giving up...
If you're really up for the task, try Motorheads v2 of the balanced valve. I think you will be quite pleased by including your own craftsmanship into the valve. Could be a fun project.
I agree with Knife on the stem, valve stems should be made from hardened, heat treated alloys. I have found great success with HSS drill bit blanks for poppet stems. I am sure there are even better alternatives but they work for me without any additional treatments.
Yep Matt, hss would have been the easy way., Sadly, not one of mine out of a few hundred have a long enough shaft. GRRRRR!!
I have replaced the poppet stems in most of my other ag's with hss drill bit shafts. Cheap, and already properly heat treated. No where as tough as S-7, but still darned stout!
I need to post pic's of what I have done with the valve and how the spring is anchored.
I redesigned some of the slugs I have been shooting in it, and 5 shot groups at 80 yards are hovering from .162 to .248 ctc for the biggest. Deadly accurate. Two Squirrels and three pest birds today at 50 to 80 yd's. Love the accuracy of the little Mini Raptor.
I would love to see the pictures Knife! I am still breaking mine in but am hoping to get slugs going through it in the future.
Thanks Bill C!
-
Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better! ;)
Knife/Mike
Not a happy camper reading this.
Keith, both of the springs that are inside(two different valves) broke one coil off the end. This is when the leaking started with the second new style valve. By simply fitting a short spring, (Lower power maximus spring about 5 coils long against the poppet head and seated on the front of the balance chamber has stopped this entirely.
I am running it with a solid poppet stem, so no balance chamber doing anything at this point. Next I will make a better poppet stem from s-7 tool steel and try the balance chamber again.
Travis stated that the stem should not bread, as they are tool steel. Well, As some of you know, I have studied metallurgy for many years. I tested the stems that were breaking where the thru hole crosses the stem to allow the air to enter the balance chambers.
They are either 303 or 316 as far as I can tell, which is a non heat treatable low grade of stainless. Think Pot and Pan material here. Nothing more than the stainless equivalent of cold rolled low carbon steel. Very week!
S-7 is a high grade shock resisting steel. I have 0-1 here, but it likes to warp in small sections when it hits the quenching oil.
So far I have made one stem from it but not heat treated. Even in its non heat treated condition, it is far superior to low carbon stainless. And this is certainly not in its prime condition. Heat treat and triple temper and it should last a life time+!
Mike
Thanks Mike! I'll revisit my valve at some point and can try that. Although I should really give up on it, I don't like giving up...I just ordered some 10mm O-rings
-
Guys, I apologize as I have not tried the dual springs with the balanced valve yet. it is just shooting so well that I don't want to mess with it. it has been a long time since I had any faith in the gun from day to day. Would it leak, can I shoot it? Kinda hard to mess with it now.
Scott, with the inverted balance system, and no hole thru the stem, how is the air getting into the chamber? I'm wanting to work one up and try it out. ;) 8)
Mike
-
Bill, sorry I got sidetracked. Did you want pic's of the spring on the outside or pic's of targets. LOL
Mike
-
It has been a long time since I had any faith in the gun from day to day. Would it leak, can I shoot it?
Mike
I know what you mean Mike. My regulator just started creeping really badly. In less than one hour plenum pressure = tank pressure. >:(
Dino
Edit here.
Bluesman didn't have his readers on and misread the gauge, all is well.
-
Bill, sorry I got sidetracked. Did you want pic's of the spring on the outside or pic's of targets. LOL
Mike
Mike I wanted to see pictures of your spring fix, but love seeing targets and how guns are shooting also LOL
-
Bill, sorry I got sidetracked. Did you want pic's of the spring on the outside or pic's of targets. LOL
Mike
Mike I wanted to see pictures of your spring fix, but love seeing targets and how guns are shooting also LOL
Bill, I will take pic's next time it is broken down into parts. I do have a non working prototype valve and will take pic's of a mock up. Simple really. I just put a cut Maximus spring running from the top of the balance chamber to the top of the poppet in addition to the inside of balance chamber spring. ;)
Mike
-
Guys, I apologize as I have not tried the dual springs with the balanced valve yet. it is just shooting so well that I don't want to mess with it. it has been a long time since I had any faith in the gun from day to day. Would it leak, can I shoot it? Kinda hard to mess with it now.
Scott, with the inverted balance system, and no hole thru the stem, how is the air getting into the chamber? I'm wanting to work one up and try it out. ;) 8)
Mike
Mike,
In the case of "My" redesign the poppet stem is still partially hollow ( same stem actually ) where the poppet head ALSO contains the female portion of the balance chamber. Material for poppet head has stem hole drilled @ .120" for @ .350" depth, then drilled with an.055" on the same bore center line for another .600" or so. * This acts as a centering pilot hole when drilling chamber end.
O.D. is turned as well while material is in lathe. Piece is then parted off at an @.950" OAL. This will leave a web of .100" between the stem and balance chamber also being where the vent hole passes threw.
Then re-held in lathe with the .055" hole facing outward. Next you drill the balance chamber bore @ .010" UNDER final size your wanting to an @> .500" depth. Then finish the bore to size wanted paying attention to surface finish.
Now I use an O.D. spring & at this time place a small step in the O.D. of poppet for spring to sit upon while in the lathe.
Your poppet head is done if making it from a solid material such as PEEK or Glass/Acetal.
Now you press in the stem using loc-tite 640/680 until it stops at the @ .350" depth. Blow air threw it making sure vent path is unobstructed.
The MALE portion that seals with an o-ring is held in place extending downward from the intake grate and requires no hole, its in place already within the poppet heads balance chamber floor.
Generally I set this type poppet up so that with poppet on seat the o-ring sealing balance chamber is @ .150" into the bore. This gives us @ .350" of possible poppet lift before chamber/balance stem bottoms out mechanically. Grind the valve stem length if needed so that IF hammer were to push stem flush with valve body the poppet stem is not driven deeper into the poppet head fracturing it.
Now all the numbers listed are loosely what I'm doing ... nothings in stone here and you can change it up to suit what your doing, parts and space your working within etc ..
Have fun !!
Scotty
-
Thank you for the reply Scott. knowing now that you are using the bored. (drilled) stem clears up the matter for me. I am switching my stem material to s-7 tool high impact steel shortly.
I would like to make this poppet arrangement, however, turning everything vertically on the lathe sure makes what I am doing very hard to see and be precise. I have to find room and eventually put in a small lathe.
As the much anticipated move to JSAR was stymied, are you back in the tuning business full time now?
Mike
-
Thank you for the reply Scott. knowing now that you are using the bored. (drilled) stem clears up the matter for me. I am switching my stem material to s-7 tool high impact steel shortly.
I would like to make this poppet arrangement, however, turning everything vertically on the lathe sure makes what I am doing very hard to see and be precise. I have to find room and eventually put in a small lathe.
As the much anticipated move to JSAR was stymied, are you back in the tuning business full time now?
Mike
I am indeed ... had made a statement to that effect end of April. See https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=172533.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=172533.0)
-
Great to Hear! I missed it as I rarely go to different boards . Mostly casting and pcp. Limiting my own education I guess. :-[
Mike