GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: SpiralGroove on February 02, 2020, 03:52:02 PM
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Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune as I'm curious to see the results. The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils. With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.
I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.
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Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune and am curious to see the results. The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils. With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.
I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.
Kirk,
I have often wondered how the reverse of what you are doing would work. Instead of a Vortek spring in an ARH set-up, I wonder what a ARH spring would be like in a Vortek set-up. Does ARH even have a spring narrow enough to fit inside the Vortek sleeve?
Should be interesting????
-Y
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Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune and am curious to see the results. The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils. With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.
I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.
Kirk,
I have often wondered how the reverse of what you are doing would work. Instead of a Vortek spring in an ARH set-up, I wonder what a ARH spring would be like in a Vortek set-up. Does ARH even have a spring narrow enough to fit inside the Vortek sleeve?
Should be interesting????
-Y
Yogi, I don't know, I've never bought an ARH kit, just the spring un-set and buttons. I refuse the spend $75 to $90 on parts I can manufacture myself -> aka North Carolina - ED.
So this is "my tune" (which is likely close to a ARH kit ?) using the Vortek spring.
I had purchased a Vortek kit for my HW30 back in 2017, but the meager increase in velocity was not worth the additional shot cycle harshness.... went back to a JM spring and OEM piston seal.
This time I believe I can get the velocity I want, it's just of ... at what cost in terms of harshness. I will clip coils if necessary to get may ideal velocity/shot cycle if it can be done. Otherwise, I'll toss the spring like I did with the HW30 Vortek kit.
As my title suggests, this is a experiment - Fang please chime in as you likely have already done this ;).
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Let me know what you get’
I put my HW95 .177 barrel on my R9 last week with my original tune’ tek .128 spring & vac-seal’
It’s my power springer’
8.64 H&N 915fps
Solid nan accurate’
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Kirk I'll have to buzz OC to let him know he's summoned here! 8)
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No R9/HW95 here. I've had the HW95 and used a Vortek spring. In the R10 I used the Hornet spring but never shot the heavy pellets that I remember? But could have and will have to look back. I may have shot the H@N Baracuda out of it but I only tested the R10 IN .20 AND WENT BACK TO .177. In the .177 the hornet spring was great. But I am not sure of the R10 vs the R9 stroke lengths but they should be close.
Vortek has change wire compositions so much I can't keep up with them. Just by looking at the Jm vs Tom's the Vortek has fewer coils and both in the HO are 125 wire.
JM Hornet = .125 x 38
Vortek HO = .125 X 29.5
Big difference in coils? Tom's springs on a norm come out hot. But some over time after setting in and did lose fps. Jims usually take set and keep up the fps. You are going to lose some FPS after the springs take set.
As to the R9 .20 shooting the 13's U are loading the power plant. Seal fit has to be right. To tight and the heavy pellet could have an off shot cycle,,,,,, no SNAP.
This goes with the JM vs tom on the R1/HW80 wire size?
JM Power = .135 x 32.
Vortek HO = .152 x 26.5
Understandable the coil difference in this application. I know the VORTEK HO spring came out hot and was shooting the Baracudes Close to 800 + FPS but the last time I shot it the power seemed to have fallen off. That was after the 12" barrel chop and I would have to go back and look at the data. I've shot so many lately that I can't keep up with the chrony #'s.
JM sometimes close coils to shorten the spring and uses the bound coils as spacing. You do not always have to chop coils to get lower fps. I will say I have had failures with both JM and Vortek springs over time. Not many of the JM but some.
I'd try a .128 wire and see how that does but who is to say just how the shot cycle will be and again with spring material changes what you will get. With the spring math you can use any spring and calculate counting coils and plugging numbers. JMO.
I am not a kit buyer. A big waste of money in my case as you with a lathe. No twang no buzz!!! Top hat and a good fitting guide is the key. Plus a good seal.
AJMO
No real help here at the moment. After I finish what I am doing Ill do some research and looking back.
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Thanks for responding Fang.
Yeah, 38 coils @ .128" would be nice to try out. .486" + .125" top-hat would give me .498" ;).
Kirk
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Don't think you would ever make that work. 38 Coil . 128 would stack up quick. Unless you meant 28 could.
Was thinking the factory spring was . 125 32-33 coils. Could be wrong w/o going to the shop and looking.
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The R9 is a 85 stroke in cm2 and the R10 is 89 in CM2.
R1 is 80 in CM2
Found this data on the R10 in . 20 with the Hornet spring H&N 11.42gr plus an Airseal moly. AS said do not worry about chrony testing till many shots for brake in of the seal. Factory hone marks were in this compression tube and my lathe de glaze. The seal was a bit tighter than I like but worked out after brake in. The seal was used in the de stroke build with a fine shooter.
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Hey Fang,
Got the Vortek HO spring today for my HW95/R9. After I closed the two spring ends it measured 30 coils at .120", so 7 less coils and spring wire smaller than the ARH. Closing the ends will reduce power a tad.
- ARH Hornet = 37 coils @ .125" wire; which gave me 690/700 fps from JSB 13.72 or about 14.5/15FPE
- Vortek HO = 30 coils @ .120" wire
However, the Vortek spring is more aggressively wrapped (tilted) and the wire appears to be stiffer.
I'm not sure how the Vortek spring will outpower the ARH, but their kits do?
I will likely need to heavily space the Vortek spring as it only compresses to 3.6" in the 5" piston.
I will make a thick top-hat and use a HW spring guide; only needing shave the SG down a bit to fit snug.
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Kirk,
What is the OD of both springs?
Thanks,
-Yogi
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Aren't all the springs from vortek, JM, Titan etc just valve springs cut to custom lengths? If that's the case it should be possible to get a lot of sizes in long lengths for cheap. The material is dirt cheap.
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Kirk,
What is the OD of both springs?
Thanks,
-Yogi
Hey Y,
This is a unscientific estimate because my Hornet spring is inside my gun at this time, but I believe their about the same with the ARH Spring being larger.
The ARH Spring has a slightly larger ID and is slightly thicker wire, so about .20" larger OD.
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Aren't all the springs from vortek, JM, Titan etc just valve springs cut to custom lengths? If that's the case it should be possible to get a lot of sizes in long lengths for cheap. The material is dirt cheap.
- No, I think there is a lot more that goes into theses springs than cutting general springs to legnth. However, it's somewhat of a mystery to me🤔.
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Aren't all the springs from vortek, JM, Titan etc just valve springs cut to custom lengths? If that's the case it should be possible to get a lot of sizes in long lengths for cheap. The material is dirt cheap.
- No, I think there is a lot more that goes into theses springs than cutting general springs to legnth. However, it's somewhat of a mystery to me🤔.
That's something I want to know. I really doubt there are airgun specific springs out there.
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The Vortek springs are generally smaller in diameter. This makes them effectively stiffer (stronger) and consequently also more stressed and will fatigue sooner. They are smaller I assume so that they will fit inside the dual guide deal and the whole works still be able to fit inside the piston.
My prediction is the Maccari spring will cock easier for the same power output, and stay consistent for a lot longer. Have fun tinkering with it, either will make a pellet get downrange in a hurry ;D
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Kirk,
What is the OD of both springs?
Thanks,
-Yogi
Hey Y,
This is a unscientific estimate because my Hornet spring is inside my gun at this time, but I believe their about the same with the ARH Spring being larger.
The ARH Spring has a slightly larger ID and is slightly thicker wire, so about .20" larger OD.
Correction: That should have read 20 thousands of an inch - hence not much different ;).
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JM springs are hand wound by JM from bar stock, their not valve springs ::)
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Springs are complicated, but not impossible to understand.
If you care to read these two entries:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs)
and
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs-ii-geometry (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs-ii-geometry)
You will get a peek into what makes an airgun spring special.
In very brief terms, airguns springs are special because:
1.- Their slenderness ratio is almost unthinkable to an industrial spring maker
2.- The material that needs to go into the spring SHOULD be different from the more common industrial or automotive materials used.
3.- They are made in VERY SMALL numbers.
Top notch TRUE Top notch automotive valve springs are conical on both ends, stubby and very stiff. More common ones are at least forged and squared, these are made by the millions.
No one winds continuous lengths of springs to cut them, then close them, then square them. Too expensive.
Modern spring-winding machinery, wind springs without mandrels, and can put a single or a double closure at the time of fabrication, only squaring needs to be done and that is also done by machinery. Machine squared springs have an incredibly thin edge, and that is a failure point for airgun use.
Some machines can even wind in one sense, then reverse the direction and wind in the other sense.
Still, the truth is that what sets airguns springs apart is that the best springs are expensive to make because we only need runs of hundreds (IF we are lucky), runs of 20 are common. There is simply too much variety to accumulate any real numbers.
Read the entries and play with the calculator. Enter real data from airguns' springs and you will see that MOST come out with warnings:
Your spring will buckle
You are exceeding the material yield strength
Your high load exceeds the allowable stress
.
.
.
etc.
And by the time you find the right combination of material, and geometry, each spring costs $25 with a minimum order of 20 pcs.
:-P
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Nice read material Hector.
Kirk, what spring did you order? I must have looked at another spring. .125 wire was what I saw but that was the replacement PG3 spring. Note that kit was made for what ever TH size and what ever spacing Tom puts at the rear with his kits.
Vortek springs use to be wound in the opposite of the factory and JM. On Vortek site you can order what he offers in longer lengths, different wire size and more than likely from JM AS WELL. On Vortek site you have to look at the material of the springs that he claims is in the spring and he calls the tuning springs.
Some do not count the last coils in the coil count and more or less say it is a dead coil having little or nothing to do with the stored energy. Experimenting with springs can be costly but that's what many of us do right or wrong.
It is a known fact that big wire and many coils do not always work like we want. If the spring can not store or release it's energy the end result will not be as intended. That also goes with too much spacing.
This goes to the pcp hammer springs. A Hammer springs will adj but at some point the fps will decline as you crank in too much HS or you will over obtain the pellets best fps. Same goes with changing HS wire size, length and or adding weight. To me the spring gun and the PCP hammer springs, yet 2 different applications, work similar in ways but not the true power plant in a pcp. Only a tuning device that strikes the valve and works the release of stored air. But in the PCP the more hammer applied the longer the valve is opened or opened longer can occur. Wasted air and lower fps can be seen.
All JMO but you can over spring a spring gun and get good FPS and maybe accurate. The design of the gun has limits. Hard cocking can be hard on the user, the gun and we know the scope. It all just depends on you goal for the gun plus the pellet you use. More power has a trade off in many applications and can be more difficult for some to harness. But many off us continue playing. Big magnum power was at one time what I thought was what I wanted. Now in a spring gun I want a balanced accurate decent powered gun. After taking the time to shoot 6 fpe guns and 12 fpe I see just what that power will do. Shot placement is a must as in any gun. Being able to place the shot for a dead on the spot kill as on paper is where it is at. On shot placement you are able to take advantage of even head shots when that is all you have.
I'll be watching for you testing.
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Thanks Hector and Fang,
Initially, I'll space up the spring to barely get some preload ... and see how it goes.
Not sure how much shorter the Vortek is vs. the ARH Hornet, but likely a couple of inches.
30 coils @ .120" wire is 3.6" compressed, while the piston can hold up to 5". So initial test will include a top-hat long enough to begin some pre-load of the spring. I will then add spacing until I get my desired velocity - if possible. If shot cycle becomes too harsh before I hit 690 fps using JSB 13.72's, I'll go back to the ARH Hornet.
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.120x29=3.48-.125=3.555 = collapsed spring
5.0-3.355=1.65 this is using you 5"#
*I think the piston depth is Like 4.85 + but still close to 5
4.85-3.355= 1.495
Counting the last coils as 1 coil count would be 29. Spacing @5" would be the 1.655
Spacing at 4.85 would be 1.495.
Calcs are said to be with in 1/16". Plus depends if I did the math correct. Remember to measure your flange thickness. The .125 is a common factor subtracted in my formalur. This will get you super close on a lock up and proper spaced spring. Jmo
If you are going for a easy cock and a mild shooter the .120 wire should be fine but imo will not be as the Hornet in fps.
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Well Fang,
I was looking for a spring to give me more power vs. my existing ARH Hornet ::).
I read where the Vortek PG3 HO kit would give more power than the ARH Hornet, that's why I bought the Vortek spring that goes with the HW95 PG3 HO kit.
In retrospect, I should have bought a custom spring with .128 wire and 40 coils and simply trimmed coils until I got what I wanted in terms of velocity.
Shot harshness is just another deal breaker.
We'll see :D
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Understand. By Vortek site that spring should be: {785125-29.5ocHth}
That would be a .125 wire with 29.5 or so coils, open coils. I have not seen the PG3 kits? By his advertising it looks to be a good spring. As mentioned before the wire comp has changed with Vortek by using small wire sizes vs heavy wire and getting by claims the same output power of a heavy wire. Here he is using the open coils as a live coil which changes the game. New one for me. WE WILL SEE SOON WHAT YOU GOT?
.129X29=3.74-.125=3.616-4.85=1.234 SPACING If this was the case but still depends on the piston depth? A rough calculation and again if I did the math correct? SWAG 5" as we know would be more spacing? Not really sure on this application?
Seems like a bunch of spacing and makes me wonder and I could be all wrong? Testing will tell the story? As always I could be all wet on this?
[Machined pitch into guide arrangement. HELICAL GUIDE FITTING with open coils, allowing use of all coils for more accurate output across product line. The new PG3-Guides have a near fit to its power grid with thicker guides, less spring equaling less fatigue, better sound deadening. Liner firing movement consistent deviations shot after shot.]
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[Machined pitch into guide arrangement. HELICAL GUIDE FITTING with open coils, allowing use of all coils for more accurate output across product line. The new PG3-Guides have a near fit to its power grid with thicker guides, less spring equaling less fatigue, better sound deadening. Liner firing movement consistent deviations shot after shot.]
I got this one: HW95-PG3-SPRING_HO
NEW PG3-OC REPLACEMENT SPRING PG3-HW95 HO KIT This spring fits the NEW PG3 Pro-GUIDE KIT guide arra..
My spring is .120" wire. I closed the ends in my application as I have no HELICAL guide .
Including top-hat, I have roughly 1.35" of spacing before the gun won't cock.
I took off .005" for slop. 30 x .120" = 3.6"; 5"- 3.6 = 1.4" less .005.
I'll make the top-hat tonight and shave an HW spring guide ... assemble in the AM.
However, my gut is telling me "this isn't going to be an improvement".
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New one in me on the guide and spring but I understand the guide being HELICAL must match the coil of the spring.
That's why the end coils were open and live using them in the stored and release of the coils energy.
Sure would have been better if the spring was a beefy . 125 wire as indicated in Tom's part # code.
🤕
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Hey Guys ... a Surprising update:
Put the Vortek HO spring in my R9 this morning ;).
Last night I had checked the ARH site, I noticed Jim's HW50 spring has 30 coils x .120" (same as the Vortek HO for the R9). So I never thought the R9 Vortek spring's power could exceed the ARH Hornet spring at 38 coils at .125". This must have been an older ARH spring as the Hornet is now listed as 37 coils at .128".
Therefore, last night I made the top-hat for the Vortek HO spring to be 1.125" long ::). I installed the spring using a cut down (3.5" length) and slightly shaved down HW95 spring guide. Also, because the spring guide and top-hat fit pretty tight (I was already using a plastic water bottle inside the piston to prevent twang), I didn't put hardly any tar (but some) on the spring nor clear tar on the spring guide. I was being lazy and didn't even remove the piston from the gun, just crammed in the spring guide, spring and top-hat adding a little molly to the spring ends, top-hat and spring guide washer.
Anyway, the preliminary results are in:
1) Gun is slightly harder to cock ... no biggie for me :D.
2) Faster shot cycle or lock time.
3) Slightly harsher recoil - but very accommodating.
4) Average velocity - 5 shots - 759 fps; JSB 13.72 grain 20 cal. pellets 8).
5) That's and average 17.6 FPE.
Anyway, very happy with the initial results, but will wait for spring break-in. Didn't touch piston seal or anything other than adding a new spring and making adjustments so it would fit - closed ends of spring too.
If the power level keeps up, I my reduce the length of my top-hat to get an average 710/725 fps or so as maximum power is not my aim here - just a faster shot cycle (lock time & somewhat increased Velocity.
Kirk
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I'm curious how the accuracy is at the new power level. That is very close to the power output of most Crosman NP models in .22
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I'm curious how the accuracy is at the new power level. That is very close to the power output of most Crosman NP models in .22
Accuracy unchanged, but slightly more hold sensitive. Shot cycles lock time close to what I'm seeing in my HW95 .177 caliber with Hornet spring or HW80 with ARH spring with same 20 caliber pellet.
Pretty impressive, but for how long? Well see 8).
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provided ur seals are good? it will lose very little power! or it may gain some if the seal on the piston is new? not broke in yet, but good to hear ur results ;D
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provided ur seals are good? it will lose very little power! or it may gain some if the seal on the piston is new? not broke in yet, but good to hear ur results ;D
Yeah Mark,
Kind of surprised by the whole turn of events ;D.
Because I didn't even pull the piston out of the receiver tube, using OEM piston seal with about 250 shots on it. The tune was to give me a faster lock time (no lock-time delay) and I got that, which also means more velocity with the JSB 13.72.
I don't think the piston seal hits any harder than my other two hard shooters, so time will tell how long the spring, seal and velocity will last. If it continues for another tin, I'll likely trim the top-hat to bring my power down to 16+ FPE or so. Don't want to stress the system for unnecessary, excess power :D, but want to keep the quick lock-time.
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I have in the past used a larger wire diameter and lost power over a smaller wire diameter, I pretty sure the larger wire was stacked to much, even tho it functioned, it was not releasing its energy as it should have, it too made the rifle more hold sensitive and harder to shoot accurately, from ur post If it doesn't calm down after a tin I would check everything again inside, and maybe reduce ur stack height just my thought's 8)
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I have in the past used a larger wire diameter and lost power over a smaller wire diameter, I pretty sure the larger wire was stacked to much, even tho it functioned, it was not releasing its energy as it should have, it too made the rifle more hold sensitive and harder to shoot accurately, from ur post If it doesn't calm down after a tin I would check everything again inside, and maybe reduce ur stack height just my thought's 8)
Well Yoda,
Kind of like a new car, put a new engine in and it handles differently. Gotta get re-acquainted with the gun as I only have about 25 shots through it so far, but the power vs. handling difference is easily worth it ;).
Because I was afraid the experiment was going to turn out badly (low power), I changed my mind and used over a 1"+ delrin top-hat, so the spacing of the spring is pretty aggressive. So if power needs to be decreased, I'll reduce the top-hat length instead of clipping coils.
Normally, when I change out a spring, I pull the piston and check & re-lube everything. In this case, I was cutting my losses by just slapping it together (wisely). So if I go back in, I'll likely add more plastic inside the piston to accommodate the smaller diameter spring, re-do a couple of buttons and re-evaluate the piston seal.
Lastly, the faster shot cycle seems to have stirred up some hidden Molly or Superlube in the compression chamber causing the gun to diesel a little more so. This is likely increasing velocity too.
We'll see ... the experiment is still preliminary ....
The PG3 HO spring and my otherwise basic tune make my gun shoot and feel like
The Son of the Beeman R1 8) -> aka SOB R1 ;D.
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Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72 - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE
Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.
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Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72 - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE
Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.
What difference does it make??
Which one is more accurate??
Your choices in pellets are very limited. Stay with the one that you can hit the target with. Honestly there's way too much thought process going on here. If a spring doesn't perform as well as you'd like, change it. This isn't rocket science it takes 20 bucks and 15 minutes, 20 tops to change a spring in a Hw95 / R9 platform. It shouldn't take a group decision over 3 days and a pat on the back to decide a course of action. ::)
More doing and less polling might be in order.
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Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72 - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE
Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.
Kirk; that's almost exactly where my R9 settled in at(' crept just under 800 w/ FTT)... Been that way for +/- 1000 shots... Sounds like you're 'll likely have same. Enjoy !
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Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72 - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE
Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.
What difference does it make??
Which one is more accurate??
Your choices in pellets are very limited. Stay with the one that you can hit the target with. Honestly there's way too much thought process going on here. If a spring doesn't perform as well as you'd like, change it. This isn't rocket science it takes 20 bucks and 15 minutes, 20 tops to change a spring in a Hw95 / R9 platform. It shouldn't take a group decision over 3 days and a pat on the back to decide a course of action. ::)
More doing and less polling might be in order.
Bayman,
The JSB 13.72 grain pellet is easily the most accurate. I wanted to get faster lock-time than my ARH Hornet spring provided. Didn't want to spend $80 on a Vortek kit, hence bought the PG3 HO spring and now testing in MY set-up. I put up numbers for the H&N FTT because many folks here like to shoot it.
This post is entitled Beeman R9 Spring Experiment - If you don't want to read about tinkering or experimenting ... don't read the post :P
If you don't buy the NO Brainer kit, then you need to worry about spacing the spring as it's 2" shorter than the Hornet. This is about mixing things up and testing to get a desired goal.
Just trying to give other folks the information as I get results.
This post isn't an attempt to be self indulgent or attention seeking as you suggest below.
This isn't rocket science it takes 20 bucks and 15 minutes, 20 tops to change a spring in a Hw95 / R9 platform. It shouldn't take a group decision over 3 days and a pat on the back to decide a course of action. ::)
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Kirk, I appreciate your efforts! Keep it up.
You are saving me 20 bucks and 15 minutes times a bunch... ;D ;)
-Y
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Kirk, I appreciate your efforts! Keep it up.
You are saving me 20 bucks and 15 minutes times a bunch... ;D ;)
-Y
Bayman is a great guy 8),
I'm in a slightly grouchy mood because my Wife and daughter have been pisssy tonight :P.
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What is meant by "lock time"?
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What is meant by "lock time"?
The time it takes for the trigger AND action to move the pellet OUT!
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Good share Kirt reguardless!
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Excellent discussion!
Thanks!
Just one note about the PG-3:
BECAUSE the tophat is now a longer guide with a helical groove cut to the pitch of the spring, and because Vortek decided to make the position of the spring in the top hat adjustable, you CAN face the condition, where the top hat/fore-guide is set to the shortest OAL (overall length), and therefore the spring is sitting in its deepest position, where if you compress the spring enough the fact that the spring is trying to compress over solid material creates a HUGE "STACKING'' at the end of the stroke.
IF this happens, then just move the spring to the second or third groove and give the fore-guide/top hat less engagement with the spring.
You'll get a bit more vibration, but you will get a more uniform weight increase along the cocking stroke (and therefore the spring distension will also be smoother).
HTH
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
PS.- on a "Purist" note, I would SUGGEST we agree to call the overall time between sear break and pellet exit, the "Pellet Dwell Time" (PDT).
"Lock Time" has a very specific application in gunsmithing, and means the time elapsed from the moment the sear is released by the trigger blade to the time the primer is struck by the firing pin.
As such it's a CONSIDERABLY SHORTER time and it would be meaningless in the airgun world.
PDT is a much more meaningful time lapse in the shot cycle as it truly reflects the all important time lapse between sear break and pellet exit.
AND there is an order of magnitude between them.
JMHO
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...
Last night I had checked the ARH site, I noticed Jim's HW50 spring has 30 coils x .120" (same as the Vortek HO for the R9). So I never thought the R9 Vortek spring's power could exceed the ARH Hornet spring at 38 coils at .125"....
I've been enjoying this thread, but I'm surprised the inner diameter of the springs have not been mentioned in this thread. Doesn't a smaller ID spring make more power than a larger one, all other specs equal?
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Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72 - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE
Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.
What difference does it make??
Which one is more accurate??
Your choices in pellets are very limited. Stay with the one that you can hit the target with. Honestly there's way too much thought process going on here. If a spring doesn't perform as well as you'd like, change it. This isn't rocket science it takes 20 bucks and 15 minutes, 20 tops to change a spring in a Hw95 / R9 platform. It shouldn't take a group decision over 3 days and a pat on the back to decide a course of action. ::)
More doing and less polling might be in order.
Dig it
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PDT in a gas ram is quicker than a springer, and this is why a good gas ram can easily beat a springer in my humble honest position! I've never sold out the Eliminator in any of my dealings for better or worse and he's stayed around for a reason: He sounds like the hammer of Thor when fired--there's a metal "hum" vibration very distinct from the slower spring. So THAT pellet gets out of the barrel SO fast I never realize it until the target has been absolutely slammed! Long live my Eliminator!
I've left it cocked overnight a few times easily. But it's not really in my practice unless I have to hold the shot for a better shot and it extends into the next day.
The FWB Sport also has a very fast PDT compared to any HW series I have. There's a spring inside it that is quite different from an HW type.
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Kirk u do ur thing! people like us seek our goals! and ask questions and don't settle for the norm! this is what makes us who we are! u will never know until u try something outside the box!!!!!! life is good!!! keep on my friend! ;D
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Excellent discussion!
Thanks!
Just one note about the PG-3:
BECAUSE the tophat is now a longer guide with a helical groove cut to the pitch of the spring, and because Vortek decided to make the position of the spring in the top hat adjustable, you CAN face the condition, where the top hat/fore-guide is set to the shortest OAL (overall length), and therefore the spring is sitting in its deepest position, where if you compress the spring enough the fact that the spring is trying to compress over solid material creates a HUGE "STACKING'' at the end of the stroke.
IF this happens, then just move the spring to the second or third groove and give the fore-guide/top hat less engagement with the spring.
You'll get a bit more vibration, but you will get a more uniform weight increase along the cocking stroke (and therefore the spring distension will also be smoother).
HTH
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
PS.- on a "Purist" note, I would SUGGEST we agree to call the overall time between sear break and pellet exit, the "Pellet Dwell Time" (PDT).
"Lock Time" has a very specific application in gunsmithing, and means the time elapsed from the moment the sear is released by the trigger blade to the time the primer is struck by the firing pin.
As such it's a CONSIDERABLY SHORTER time and it would be meaningless in the airgun world.
PDT is a much more meaningful time lapse in the shot cycle as it truly reflects the all important time lapse between sear break and pellet exit.
AND there is an order of magnitude between them.
JMHO
Thanks Hector,
Yes, Pellet Dwell Time it is :D.
In my application, I purchased the PG3 HO spring without any other Vortek components. Hence, I don't have the Helical grooved Top-hat; I wanted to use the spring in my unique tune to see how it compared to my current ARH Hornet. I was attempting to achieve a faster PDT with a corresponding increase in power. I closed the PG3 spring ends so they were perpendicular and installed the spring, new guide and top-hat after polishing the spring ends.
So far the increase in power/PDT has been worth the increase in hold sensitivity. Assuming the spring retains its current power, the only thing I may do is install a hardened washer below the T-H to remove the very slight torquing of the barrel.
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...
Last night I had checked the ARH site, I noticed Jim's HW50 spring has 30 coils x .120" (same as the Vortek HO for the R9). So I never thought the R9 Vortek spring's power could exceed the ARH Hornet spring at 38 coils at .125"....
I've been enjoying this thread, but I'm surprised the inner diameter of the springs have not been mentioned in this thread. Doesn't a smaller ID spring make more power than a larger one, all other specs equal?
Hey Dan,
I understand that all things being constant, smaller diameter springs create more power.
However, in the case of the Hornet spring (.125" wire) vs. PG3 HO springs (.120") the inside diameter difference wasn't more than about 15 thousands of an inch difference (the PG3 was smaller).
I didn't feel this was nearly the main reason why the PG3 was more powerful. IMO, it has to do more with aggressive (pitched) wrapping of the spring (w/larger spaces between coils) and higher tinsel strength wire.
IDK, Hector could probably help out here.
So by comparison, the shorter & thinner PG3 spring (30 coils @ .120") out powers the longer ARH spring (w/38 coils @ .125" wire). I have no idea how long it will hold up, but it seems to be a more stressed coil with a slightly harsher shot cycle. That's all I know right now. :D
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Hey Dan,
I understand that all things being constant, smaller diameter springs create more power.
However, in the case of the Hornet spring (.125" wire) vs. PG3 HO springs (.120") the inside diameter difference wasn't more than about 15 thousands of an inch difference (the PG3 was smaller).
I didn't feel this was nearly the main reason why the PG3 was more powerful. IMO, it has to do more with aggressive (pitched) wrapping of the spring (w/larger spaces between coils) and higher tinsel strength wire.
IDK, Hector could probably help out here.
So by comparison, the shorter & thinner PG3 spring (30 coils @ .120") out powers the longer ARH spring (w/38 coils @ .125" wire). I have no idea how long it will hold up, but it seems to be a more stressed coil with a slightly harsher shot cycle. That's all I know right now. :D
Kirk;
Pitch plays a huge role in the "feel" of a spring, yes a shorter pitch (less distance between coils), generates less stress in the steel, and therefore the spring is smoother to cock, but also usually yields a lower "k" spring rate or spring constant, so that more stroke is needed to achieve the same energy.
If you take things to the extreme and use an infinite pitch, you are compressing the steel along its own axis. So any distance that the steel compresses will mean a HUGE force.
IDEALLY we should use the largest possible OD we can, and the shortest pitch we can while still generating the "k" we need for the power stroke of the gun.
That usually means a thicker wire BUT, as long as the pitch is correct and the OD is correct, it will still be a smooth cocking arrangement.
The amount of weight that the spring coils add to the whole distending mass may or may not be relevant, depending on the weight of the piston, which is the base/main weight. A heavy piston will not be bothered, but a lightweight piston will change completely its firing characteristics.
Another thing that I cannot stress too little is that springs that are subject to smaller TOTAL COMPRESSION RATIO's (TCR) extend their life by the square of the proportion in reduction.
In other words: if your architecture calls for a CL (Compressed Length) to OAL (Overall Length) ratio of 46% (about average for DIANA airguns) and your spring life expectancy is 5,000 shots (also average for DIANA OEM springs), and you change the TCR to 0.63 (Short stroked versions), then the difference in TCR's is 36%, which means that you can count on an average life in excess of 9,200 shots (5,000 X 1.36X1.36). If you start from a spring that already has an extended life (15,000 shots), then you can imagine that the gun will be stable and unchanging for a long time, even with heavy usage (10-30,000 shots per year)
There are many tricks to choosing the right spring and, even then, there is NO SINGLE ANSWER. Shooters want different things and so the designer needs to decide on a compromise where most shooters can be reasonably happy.
It is wonderful that we can have a high level discussion about these intricacies, as it broadens our understanding of what goes on inside the guns.
Thanks for your orderly exposition of results!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Thanks Hector,
Good information to have in the back of your mind when tuning airguns and guesstimating adjustments that could be made ;).
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How about PellDwell for short? :D :D
-Y
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...
IDEALLY we should use the largest possible OD we can, and the shortest pitch we can while still generating the "k" we need for the power stroke of the gun.
That usually means a thicker wire BUT, as long as the pitch is correct and the OD is correct, it will still be a smooth cocking arrangement.
...
Another thing that I cannot stress too little is that springs that are subject to smaller TOTAL COMPRESSION RATIO's (TCR) extend their life by the square of the proportion in reduction.
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Great post, Hector!
When you mention "smooth cocking arrangement," do you mean light effort, most linear, or something else?
Does changing spacing also change the spring life by the square of the spacing difference compared to the total stroke? Does spacing to the edge of coil bind drastically reduce spring life? Does preload figure into the TCR calculations?
Thank you!
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Dan
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Lets look at things this way, u take a piece of wire, u bend it back and forth, eventually it will break! IMO, I think if u let a spring fully relax and stretch ur over working the spring allowing it to expand to its limits, yes this also creates power out of the spring and allows it to expand its energy, but it shortens its life, if all things being equal with good metallurgy, a heavier wire dia will last longer, due to its ability of the larger dia, it will take more stress and take longer to break then a small wire dia, the trade off is its heavier to move, higher cocking effort, if spaced correctly u capture its energy with out over working it, The thinner the wire the faster it will break! their is a balance of stroke length and wire size with a weight of pellet u plan to use! JMO ;D
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Lets look at things this way, u take a piece of wire, u bend it back and forth, eventually it will break! IMO, I think if u let a spring fully relax and stretch ur over working the spring allowing it to expand to its limits, yes this also creates power out of the spring and allows it to expand its energy, but it shortens its life, if all things being equal with good metallurgy, a heavier wire dia will last longer, due to its ability of the larger dia, it will take more stress and take longer to break then a small wire dia, the trade off is its heavier to move, higher cocking effort, if spaced correctly u capture its energy with out over working it, The thinner the wire the faster it will break! their is a balance of stroke length and wire size with a weight of pellet u plan to use! JMO ;D
Yeah Yoda,
I surmised that all things being equal, if your spring has thinner wire, more pitch and generates more power -> more likely than not, its going to fail sooner. Just basic physics ;)
Unless, of course ... the thinner wire with more pitch is of vastly superior metallurgy (quality).
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Great post, Hector!
When you mention "smooth cocking arrangement," do you mean light effort, most linear, or something else?
Does changing spacing also change the spring life by the square of the spacing difference compared to the total stroke? Does spacing to the edge of coil bind drastically reduce spring life? Does preload figure into the TCR calculations?
Thank you!
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Dan
Thanks for your kind words, Dan!
Smoother cocking involves all three: Less cocking effort, more linear over the stroke, and no "stacking" (non-linearity of the force to position ratio).
Spacing makes the increases the compression, so your ratio of compressed to uncompressed length goes LOWER, but this is bad because stress (and strain) goes HIGHER. In the same vein, pre-compression is taken into account in the calculations.
Again, thanks, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Kirk,
Just wondering if you have ever tried one of those short stroke kits from Tim Bum in the UK? It might just solve your problem with the OEM or standard spring.
Just thinking......... ::)
-Y
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Kirk,
Just wondering if you have ever tried one of those short stroke kits from Tim Bum in the UK? It might just solve your problem with the OEM or standard spring.
Just thinking......... ::)
-Y
Thanks for inquiring Y...,
I really haven't had time to get back to the spring issue, plus I've been pretty happy with the Vortek PG-3 HO spring combined with my basic tune :D. The gun has a consistently, quick Dwell Time and velocity of 725/740 fps. However, I have noticed the gun is more hold sensitive than my .20 caliber HW80 that generates more power/recoil. Thinking I may put hardened steel washer under the (delrin) top-hat and make sure top-hat is absolutely perpendicular to the spring. I'm thinking the spring is creating a bit of side torque ... also may reduce power a tad by shortening the TH.
I'm not that familiar with the TB short stroke kit, but thinking it will not generate > 15 FPE?
I want this gun to be a 75/80 yards shooter with flat trajectory - not sure the SS kit will cut it?
Also, I purchased a newer ARG Hornet spring which is .128 @ 38 coils so this is another option.
For now ... gonna stick with the Vortek unless something significantly bad happens ::).
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Any updates on this?
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Any updates on this?
Yeah Jason,
- IIRC, I put the Vortek PG3 spring in my R9 - had to close the coil ends because they come opened for the the PG3 kits (adjustable pre-load) top-hat. I didn't use anything Vortek other than the spring.
- On my R10, I decided to go with Vortek spring, same diameter as PG3, but a "tuning spring" they list on their website (same cost). This spring came with more coils, so I cut it down to 2 coils longer than the PG3 spring. Only had to close the end which was cut, polished and installed.
Both guns are very nice in 20 caliber achieving 16+ FPE, with quick shot cycle - not harsh at all.
My only unknown is: How long with this performance last before the spring looses power?
Some have said they will go 3K shots ... well see ;).
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Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune as I'm curious to see the results. The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils. With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.
I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.
Hummmm.....interesting because I tried a home rolled spring kit based on this spring and found it to be "too hot for my liking" but the gun was accurate with it.......
(https://i.imgur.com/2WHARFll.png)(https://i.imgur.com/6jbM8Jwl.jpg)
After reading glowing reports of the Vortek springs I ordered an early production Vortek PG2 kit for my .177 Beeman R9. I was surprised to find that the spring had (unclosed spring ends with a thick/heavy steel top hat) .........
(https://i.imgur.com/gsfNgSml.jpg)
My R9 had the old style cocking shoe that was supported by the piston liner which needed to be removed to make space for the plastic PG2 sleeve. Well....I found that the edges of the R9 cocking shoe "foot" (10s of thousands of shoots on the steel liner with no damage) grooved the PG2 outer sleeve like this.........
(https://i.imgur.com/7FcRRRTl.jpg)
I rounded the edges of the cocking shoe foot contacting the PG2 "outer sleeve" and the gouging stopped.
After the PG2 kit install the 7.9 grain CPL velocity after the install was a "much too hot" 960 fps so I swapped out the thick/heavy top hat for a thinner/lighter home turned steel top hat. This dropped the CPL velocity to a "bit high but acceptable" 910fps. After shooting about 2500 shots the CPL velocity dropped to 880 fps so the gun was broken down and the lighter/thinner home turned top hat was replaced with the origionally supplied thick top hat and the CPL velocity was again at 910fps but 50fps less than when first used. Before finishing one case of CPLs (4 boxes) my CPL velocity again dropped to 880fps, even with the thicker top hat. That meant that in less than 6 months of shooting and less than 5000 shots the spring had sagged enough to drop velocity 80fps less than new.
Anywhoo.......perhaps I got a "lemon" but I didn't accept the offer for a new replacement from Tom (great customer support) because I didn't want to be breaking down my springer every few months during a field target season requiring a new setup. A couple years later I noticed that the bare Vortek springs had closed/polished spring ends so I ordered one of his bare springs to see if it was more resistant to "spring sag". It also sagged after about 2500 shots so I returned to the ARH springs I used in the past..........
(https://i.imgur.com/UW9ChJ8l.jpg)
Thinking that I might have simply gotten an "occasional poorly tempered" spring I questioned others at field target matches that also tried the Vortek offerings. Those I questioned who used Vortek springs for field target had similar results to mine. It was claimed that the PG2 worked well for about 2500 shots (what I found) but after that they started sagging "very fast".
Anywhoo.....I still have that ARH Hornet spring and I just may reinstall it in my .177 HW95 and see how much difference it makes to shoot CPLs at about 900-910fps (like I used to use) instead of the 850ish fps I'm currently using. ::)
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Thanks Ed,
I appreciate your ongoing analysis and boat loads of data. I've haven't recorded my findings other than my old posts (when the data was fresh).
- I used the older Hornet spring in my HW95 .177 cal. (hybrid) and have had a constant 870/880 fps since its 2016 tune. The shot cycle isn't harsh at all, but not soft either. However, the gun is so accurate, I refuse to change anything on her ;). With it's top-hat, tight spring guide, plastic piston sleeve and buttons it's a very solid and smooth shooter.
- I used both styles of Hornet spring on my Beeman R9/R10 (same set-up as above, but .20 caliber) and found they could not give me the dwell time or velocity I preferred. After using modified Vortek springs appearing to be dimensional less robust (however, more aggressive wire pitch), they provided a faster dwell time and velocity I was seeking.
As Ed has noted, this power increase maybe short lived -> Thus the experiment continues ;).
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A wealth of info from ED as usual! This why I only use ARH {JM} products!!! ;D
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I also appreciate all of Ed’s input. And I’m not trying to be contrary. But that picture looks like the spring Ed got from Vortek was a .770” OD, .118” wire thickness, and 34 coil spring. Their website now lists an OEM replacement spring for the HW95 as .810” OD, .125” thickness, and 33 coils.
There are too many stories of of Vortek springs losing power, from too many reliable sources, to say that it didn’t happen. But they mostly seem to be older stories. Maybe it just took Vortek a few years to get things figured out and dialed in? That’s why I bumped this thread. Hoping Kirk can help us get some more current info on Vortek spring performance/longevity. Thanks to Kirk for making the thread, and to everyone else who has weighed in.
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"And I’m not trying to be contrary."
LOL...no controversy at all! I only tried the Vortek spring in the posted pic because it was close in spec to my favorite ARH spring (the E3650) which has 35 coils of .120 wire wound with a .515 ID (.755 OD)...........
(https://i.imgur.com/nh5lB1bl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/UW9ChJ8l.jpg)
I have a couple unused (practically) factory HW95 springs in my parts drawer because the last couple HW springers I bought were immediately stripped down of factory lubes and the factory spring replaced with a home rolled spring kit based on the ARH E3650 spring and the factory piston seal replaced with one of my home rolled oring sealed piston caps..........
HW95 disassembled and ready for aftermarket & home rolled parts plus a relube with Krytox "space station grease"..........
(https://i.imgur.com/6DIvbJyl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/GC4Lj5sl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/HkfVchnl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/2gbPqo0l.jpg)
The factory HW95 spring geometry is indeed similar to the spring Vortek offers but here are the dimensions of my unused HW95 factory spring...........
(https://i.imgur.com/EcpFmjsl.jpg)
I don't know about the consistency of the factory HW95 springs so perhaps there are differences. Seems that a couple differences between the Vortek spring and my factory HW95 spring are the wire thickness (HW .122 vs Vortek .125) and perhaps the coil count (depending on if the inactive coils are included).
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NCed,
Thanks for posting. My HW 50 with a PG 2 kit shoots right around 795 fps with JSB 8.44's.
Not sure if I will ever get to 2500 shots through it because my Motorhead tuned HW 50 with OEM spring shoots at 805 fps with JSB 8.44's, and is MUCH smoother.
Vortek rellies on gimmicks. The plastic shroud is a gimmick and the variable top hat is a gimmick.
Now hopefully we can get Spiral Groove to try a Titan spring! 8)
-Y
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NCed,
Thanks for posting. My HW 50 with a PG 2 kit shoots right around 795 fps with JSB 8.44's.
Not sure if I will ever get to 2500 shots through it because my Motorhead tuned HW 50 with OEM spring shoots at 805 fps with JSB 8.44's, and is MUCH smoother.
Vortek rellies on gimmicks. The plastic shroud is a gimmick and the variable top hat is a gimmick.
Now hopefully we can get Spiral Groove to try a Titan spring! 8)
-Y
Concerning the "plastic shrouds" like this.........
(https://i.imgur.com/GTWQQUDl.png)
I noticed that the use of the "outer sleeve" forced the use of a spring with a rather small inside diameter relative to the ARH bare springs I was using at that time years ago which was normally around .540 ID. (the old discontinued JM Tarantula spring). Since the Vortek spring used with my PG2 kit had a relatively small ID to fit inside the outer sleeve. I believe the smaller diameter relative to wire gage also increased the stress on the individual coils when cocked which accelerated the "spring sag" and also gave increased velocity for the short haul.
Contrary to this I found that the ARH E3650 gives excellent service life without "sagging" even though the 35 coils of .120 wire is wound with a relatively small .515 ID. I don't know if the issue with the two different springs (ARH vs Vortek) is related to the spring geometry or the tempering process but my Maccari springs have held up much longer than the two (admittedly only two) Vortek springs I tried.
The first time I tried a Maccari spring kit was decades ago when I owned a .177 Beeman R10 and I replaced the factory spring with a JM "soft spring" kit. After installation the R10 was completely twang/vibrationless and using the factory HW "thin parachute edge" piston seal I was shooting 7.9 grain domes over the chrony at 910fps. After 20,000 shots on the same spring (judged by counting empty pellet tins and boxes over two years) the gun was still shooting the 7.9 grain domes at 905fps. LOL...that small difference could have been due to only atmospheric conditions.
The PG2 kit I bought was indeed twang and vibration free but it wasn't any smoother shooting than the Maccari "soft spring" mentioned above, or a home rolled tight fitting single spring guide........
(https://i.imgur.com/mVhEbgcl.jpg)
Concerning Titan springs...........
I'm not familiar with those but they do look interesting at about $30 a pop. Here is a size chart for Titan springs I found on the internet........
(https://i.imgur.com/1yGK6SIl.png)
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I’m about to make my first attempt at posting a picture in this forum. It’s a screen shot of all the Titan XS measurements from a table I found on the internet that I converted from metric to standard US measurements. Probably the same chart Ed found...
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Ed,
What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?
For example, to me the durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring--so does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?
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Ed,
What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?
For me, durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring.
Does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?
Hey John,
I don't mean to answer for Ed,
1) After market springs outlast most OEM springs.
2) ARH springs last the longest/are the most consistent, but are made to achieve the sweet spot between power/longevity.
3) Vortek springs are the most powerful, but are more likely to exhibit reduced/inconsistent power over time. However, many current Vortek users dispute their lack of durability.
4) I don't know anything about Titan springs except they cost $30 ;)
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Ed,
What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?
For example, to me the durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring--so does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?
I found that the Maccari (ARH) springs last longer than the factory HW springs of a couple decades ago, however I don't know about the springs in recent HWs because I haven't used a factory HW spring for a couple decades.
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Ed,
What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?
For me, durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring.
Does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?
Hey John,
I don't mean to answer for Ed,
1) After market springs outlast most OEM springs.
2) ARH springs last the longest/are the most consistent, but are made to achieve the sweet spot between power/longevity.
3) Vortek springs are the most powerful, but are more likely to exhibit reduced/inconsistent power over time. However, many current Vortek users dispute their lack of durability.
4) I don't know anything about Titan springs except they cost $30 ;)
Yup....X2 here.
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Thank you both!
;)
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I am a firm believer in the ARH spring kits, I have been buying them for over a decade, I have tried others over the yrs, other then ARH the only other kits I would purchase is ones from Steve Pope out of England! V-Mach kits! 8)