GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: oldpro on November 23, 2019, 04:01:32 PM
-
The 20 cal is new to me I just started shooting it in the Raptor and all I can say is WOW! It cuts the wind better than any bore size I have ever tried and doesnt really care about pellet speed it shoots great from 800 and below to 980 fps.
-
I last shot the .20 in a custom barrel for the SynRod and loved the caliber. Those two .20 vids on your other thread just blew me away. Such precision, and in the wind no less! A Raptor in .20 is in my future.
-
i know some of you here wont believe this, and i dont care....
but my shinsung career-II 707 .20
puts the jsb 13.73gr pellets in one hole within ctc <1/4" @ 35yrds averaging 1096fps for a 9 shot mag.
who ever said that a pellet looses stability when over 930fps needs to get real gun...... ;D
-
i know some of you here wont believe this, and i dont care....
but my shinsung career-II 707 .20
puts the jsb 13.73gr pellets in one hole within ctc <1/4" @ 35yrds averaging 1096fps for a 9 shot mag.
who ever said that a pellet looses stability when over 930fps needs to get real gun...... ;D
I am curious if it is the caliber or the pellet design?
If the caliber, then why does .20 do better than .177 or .22?
Or, is it something else going on with the .20 air guns? Barrel twist, etc, etc, etc?
Thanks!
-
At one time,ran 6 5mm's....springer, co2,HPA, and PCP.
Am down to 4..one springer, one co2, and 2X PCP.
5mm does NOTHING better...I still like the caliber, but doen't see it as really anything but an "almost" caliber.Better than .177 (at least in PCP's) but not as good as .22.
(truthfully...considering today's .25 PCP's...can think of both the 5mm and the .22 as "middle calibers" that are a compromise.)
That seems harsh....and from a guy who actually LIKES the caliber...but I don't fool myself into thinking it's really better.
Doesn't have to be "better" to like them....just have to like the caliber.
The old Sumatra 2500 can manage 53 foot pounds with 23gr. Sam Yangpellets (more like 1030fps max)...but I am one of the ones that find the good accurcy of the 13.7gr. JSB's is kind of lost past 920/950fps.
-
At one time,ran 6 5mm's....springer, co2,HPA, and PCP.
Am down to 4..one springer, one co2, and 2X PCP.
5mm does NOTHING better...I still like the caliber, but doen't see it as really anything but an "almost" caliber.Better than .177 (at least in PCP's) but not as good as .22.
(truthfully...considering today's .25 PCP's...can think of both the 5mm and the .22 as "middle calibers" that are a compromise.)
That seems harsh....and from a guy who actually LIKES the caliber...but I don't fool myself into thinking it's really better.
Doesn't have to be "better" to like them....just have to like the caliber.
The old Sumatra 2500 can manage 53 foot pounds with 23gr. Sam Yangpellets (more like 1030fps max)...but I am one of the ones that find the good accurcy of the 13.7gr. JSB's is kind of lost past 920/950fps.
Thanks for the honest assessment. I have read some posts from .20 zealots that make it seem that the .20 does everything better, but nobody ever delineates exactly WHY that would be.
Nothing against the caliber except for lack of much choice in pellets and the cost.
Thanks again!
-
For me,the two PCP's have been revived by the 15.9gr. JSB.
Pretty much best accuracy at something like 900-950fps (lets call it 925). Do keep a stash of 23gr. Eun Jin 5mm pellets for the Sumatra(nothing else is going to really stand up to full-power +50foot pound tunes).
'Better"...nope, you won't find a logical/data based logic in that....although some people hold that the 5mm is better by way of belief rather than proof.
SUBJECTIVELY: it can see m better (until you do a head to head test).
OBJECTIVELY: The 5mm is a "between" caliber that can be wonderful in one of the moderate power rifles....but there ain't many of those middle-piddle rifles around.
My favorite 5mm runs about 27 foot pounds:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48871493357_342d69ff33_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hsBbjr)DSCN2300 (https://flic.kr/p/2hsBbjr) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Which means it gets about 16gr. at 875fps.
That could be by way of a hot rod .177 rifle with JSB 16.2gr....or a typical .22 PCP with 15.9gr. JSB's.....or with the 5mm 15.9gr. JSB's. ...which pretty much puts it in the middle of BC/Trajectory/windage vs. pellet area.
-
thats great, my favorite runs @ 36.6fpe, but can deliver 45fpe within 3/8" @
35yrds.
i have it backed down for one hole groups ;)
-
Liked the 5mm "back when" (like back when the Sheridan was made and when Beeman was "pimping" it).
Then it went away.HW kept it somewhat alive (from what I read, that was a personal preference) for several years.
Then,Werbley gave the 5mm a promotional try....but right aver that promo,Crosamn stopped making 14.3gr. Cps...so th3e Webley tinned versions evaporated...and their 5mm (through HAtsan at that time) PCP/Springer line evaporated.
Lets face it,for old guys,if you liked the Sheridan "C", they you had to like the 5mm as you had no choice...and for some of us old guys, that kind of carried over.
Old hunting buddy passes away, and I end up with like 18-20 500 count tins of 5mm pellets....so I pretty much HAD to get a couple of 5mm's to use up this "bonanza" of free-pellets.
Which to this day, I'm still using some of them....which is why one of the faster HPA rifles got reconverted to co2. Would shoot one type of pellet well at 600fps that the HPA version would NOT shoot at 750fps (even though the barrel and e3erything but the HPA bottle is the same).
MAYBE in another 2500-2750 shots, I'll use up the last of those old pellets and re-re-convert the 12 foot pound co2 QB back to HPA. I saved all the HPA "guts" so wit would be a simple swap-out.
As much as I like thr 5mm...I'd not buy one new unless you had a "carp" load of 5mm pelletsor unless you were really dedicated to a choice of 3 pellets.
(it would be like a lottery to see if any of the 3 shot well).
The ONLY pellets really worth trying are:
20(ish)gr. H&N FTT. They won't likelywork in a PCP shooting them really fast (like over 900fps).
13.5-13.7gr. (sem like they got lighter as time whent on) JSB's. Pretty much the standard pellet of a 5mm PCP. About the same velocity limit in the ones I've tired...maybe 935-950fps.
15.9gr. JSB's (the newset issue pelle3ts)can stand the same speeds, which earns a really good energy for a 5mm.
Do I think the 5mm is some kind of magically-better?
Nope...it's a 5mm,and if you like the calibert...then it's"better".If you don't like the odd-ball caliber,then it "aint".
-
who ever said that a pellet looses stability when over 930fps needs to get real gun
If you have an airgun that applies enough pressure to the base of the pellet, the skirt flares out and the "pellet" becomes a cylindrical hollow base slug. Perhaps such distortion is the source for your better than predicted results. Or, you are assuming that loss of stability means poor short or medium range performance; when in fact, it is at longer ranges that the instability appears:
There are many airguns that overspeed diabolo pellets, resulting in "instability". The "instability" presents as spiraling at ranges over 50 yards; due to too high a spin speed, retained after the initial high forward velocity has been scrubbed off by air resistance. Then, the gyro and drag stability fight each other, resulting in precession of the pellet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFou_4VqLBY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFou_4VqLBY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St2fgrsy7qw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St2fgrsy7qw)
Try your Korean cannon at 75 yards and report back to us...
-
i dont intend to shoot past the ability of the "cannon"
it does well hunting squirrels in the swamp.
-
HAsn't gone full cylinder shaped...although I have seen that in a captured/springer diesel shot...but enough deforation/obruation to count.
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pellets/IMG_4247-1_zps8b8e8348.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pellets/IMG_4247-1_zps8b8e8348.jpg.html)
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pellets/IMG_4666_zpseb808060.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pellets/IMG_4666_zpseb808060.jpg.html)
Odd thing is that I don't think the pressure itself was higher...lower sped was a short "blip" of 3K air, high pseed was a loing "burrrrp" of 3K pressure....so a volume/duration thing rather than a peak pressure thing?
-
HAsn't gone full cylinder shaped...although I have seen that in a captured/springer diesel shot...but enough deforation/obruation to count.
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pellets/IMG_4247-1_zps8b8e8348.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pellets/IMG_4247-1_zps8b8e8348.jpg.html)
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pellets/IMG_4666_zpseb808060.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pellets/IMG_4666_zpseb808060.jpg.html)
Odd thing is that I don't think the pressure itself was higher...lower sped was a short "blip" of 3K air, high pseed was a loing "burrrrp" of 3K pressure....so a volume/duration thing rather than a peak pressure thing?
That makes sense. Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
-
Thanks for the pics, Ribbonstone.
It takes a certain pressure to create a certain deformation. The deformation is stress relieving the system. Stated another way, the lead cup keeps blowing out, until its unsupported span bearing the pressure, is short enough for the material stress to drop down to below its yield point.
A short valve opening time, with air flowing through a restricted transfer port might not actually apply the same peak pressure to the pellet. Consider that the pellet is free to start moving before pressure behind it reaches 3000 PSI, and it becomes easier to see how a long blast at 3000 PSI can exceed a short one, in terms of the real peak pressure the pellet sees. I think this is an area where springers develop and apply peak pressure directly to the pellet, that is higher than what PCPs typically do, simply due to the abruptness of springer pistons stopping on the air in front of them.
Deformation of the pellet would also take a finite, although very short amount of time. If the time is too short, I can see that the deformation might nor be "complete". Then short valve dwell might behave like hitting the pellets with a light hammer at the same speed, as hitting it with a heavier hammer (longer valve dwell)...
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
-
Nothing but .20 for FT work, even have my Daystate Airwolf converted to .20 which shoots at substantially higher power just as well.
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
I am thinking volume before expansion of the air. I would think it takes a little time for the air to expand and it takes more air to expand enough to get to peak pressure.
A short blip of high pressure air simply doesn't provide enough volume to reach peak pressure behind the pellet which also explains the lower FPS along with the smaller bearing area.
At least that is how I think about it. It simplifies it enough for me to understand.
-
A short blip of high pressure air simply doesn't provide enough volume to reach peak pressure behind the pellet.
Makes sense, if the transfer port and chamber behind the pellet have significant volume.
-
A short blip of high pressure air simply doesn't provide enough volume to reach peak pressure behind the pellet.
Makes sense, if the transfer port and chamber behind the pellet have significant volume.
As I said, volume of air is key. Not just pressure.
-
I've got a Veteran in .22 @ right under 20fpe. JSB 13.43.
I've got a USFT in.177 @ right under 20fpe. Jsb 10.34
I'll soon have a Raptor in .20 that can be setup for right under 20fpe. JSB 13.73.
I know the first two are very accurate. Travis's vids sure make a compelling argument for the .20 as well.
I'll wait for a nice windy day and shoot groups with all three to see how much wind drift each caliber experiences. With three very accurate guns at the same power but different caliber, should be interesting.
The most fair comparison will be between the Veteran and the Raptor as pellet weights will be very close there. They also both have traditionally rifled barrels. The .177 in the mix shoots best with 10.34gr and has a poly barrel so it won't quite be apples to apples. Still should be fun and possibly informative.
-
I've got a Veteran in .22 @ right under 20fpe. JSB 13.43.
I've got a USFT in.177 @ right under 20fpe. Jsb 10.34
I'll soon have a Raptor in .20 that can be setup for right under 20fpe. JSB 13.73.
I know the first two are very accurate. Travis's vids sure make a compelling argument for the .20 as well.
I'll wait for a nice windy day and shoot groups with all three to see how much wind drift each caliber experiences. With three very accurate guns at the same power but different caliber, should be interesting.
The most fair comparison will be between the Veteran and the Raptor as pellet weights will be very close there. They also both have traditionally rifled barrels. The .177 in the mix shoots best with 10.34gr and has a poly barrel so it won't quite be apples to apples. Still should be fun and possibly informative.
Look forward to seeing your results. Even if the .20 does better against the wind, I will still be curious as to why? If .20 caliber is truly better than .22 and .177, there has to be some definitive reason.
Good luck and thanks!
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
Generally an incorrect assumption they see equal pressure ...
Reason for is this in part, The pellet will break free and start moving down barrel at far lower pressure than what the regulator, valve releases etc ...
The acceleration of the pellet happens in a very short distance and this is tied to PRESSURE pure and simple ( This we can agree upon ) Trick is a word some may not be familiar with ... AMPLITUDE. which is the strength and speed in which the pressure builds. If the valve opens and closes doing so threw smaller ports, the pressure peak is reduced but duration in increased ( Lower amplitude ) If the valve is open and closes for the same period of time using LARGE ports the pressure peak is sudden and intense but has less duration. this would be ( High Amplitude )
So a pellet subjected to lower & slower rise in pressure ( smaller ports ) it will break free and start moving before peak pressure is able to get behind it. Because valve is open / close in short time span you get what we''ll call a Blow gun effect. Now take this same event threw BIG ports the pressure rises behind pellet really fast that when the pellet does break free and start moving there is more pressure packed in behind it. More a cheek slap blow gun effect.
AMPLITUDE of the pressure that gets behind pellet BEFORE IT MOVES will change the pressure within the space between valve and said pellet BECAUSE as pellet starts moving the volume behind it increases exponentially & further it moves away from where it started the pressure pushing upon it is collapsing becoming less and less due too the increasing volume.
hope this makes some sense ???
-
I've got a Veteran in .22 @ right under 20fpe. JSB 13.43.
I've got a USFT in.177 @ right under 20fpe. Jsb 10.34
I'll soon have a Raptor in .20 that can be setup for right under 20fpe. JSB 13.73.
I know the first two are very accurate. Travis's vids sure make a compelling argument for the .20 as well.
I'll wait for a nice windy day and shoot groups with all three to see how much wind drift each caliber experiences. With three very accurate guns at the same power but different caliber, should be interesting.
The most fair comparison will be between the Veteran and the Raptor as pellet weights will be very close there. They also both have traditionally rifled barrels. The .177 in the mix shoots best with 10.34gr and has a poly barrel so it won't quite be apples to apples. Still should be fun and possibly informative.
Look forward to seeing your results. Even if the .20 does better against the wind, I will still be curious as to why? If .20 caliber is truly better than .22 and .177, there has to be some definitive reason.
Good luck and thanks!
I can tell you this it shot better at 800 fps with the .20 cal JSB than my Veteran .22 did at 920 with a CZ barrel. shotting the 15 grain JSB thats saying something. Ill post the Raptor video you can see how hard it was blowing and how well it shot at only 800 fps so there is definitely something to the .20 I dont know of just yet but will get down to it.
https://youtu.be/hdv2gRzbmEU
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
Generally an incorrect assumption they see equal pressure ...
Reason for is this in part, The pellet will break free and start moving down barrel at far lower pressure than what the regulator, valve releases etc ...
The acceleration of the pellet happens in a very short distance and this is tied to PRESSURE pure and simple ( This we can agree upon ) Trick is a word some may not be familiar with ... AMPLITUDE. which is the strength and speed in which the pressure builds. If the valve opens and closes doing so threw smaller ports, the pressure peak is reduced but duration in increased ( Lower amplitude ) If the valve is open and closes for the same period of time using LARGE ports the pressure peak is sudden and intense but has less duration. this would be ( High Amplitude )
So a pellet subjected to lower & slower rise in pressure ( smaller ports ) it will break free and start moving before peak pressure is able to get behind it. Because valve is open / close in short time span you get what we''ll call a Blow gun effect. Now take this same event threw BIG ports the pressure rises behind pellet really fast that when the pellet does break free and start moving there is more pressure packed in behind it. More a cheek slap blow gun effect.
AMPLITUDE of the pressure that gets behind pellet BEFORE IT MOVES will change the pressure within the space between valve and said pellet BECAUSE as pellet starts moving the volume behind it increases exponentially & further it moves away from where it started the pressure pushing upon it is collapsing becoming less and less due too the increasing volume.
hope this makes some sense ???
Scott, that makes perfect sense. I had not even thought about the "blow gun" effect. However, there still needs to be enough volume of HP air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel. Right? Not simply pressure alone? Otherwise, would the projectile not slow down due to friction?
Thanks!
-
Here at speed 930 fps with the heavy 20 cal JSB 15.89 threw very poor wind conditions as well. It just cheats the wind somehow. Like i said I dont know why but it does.
https://youtu.be/X5gBOTu2MxA
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
Generally an incorrect assumption they see equal pressure ...
Reason for is this in part, The pellet will break free and start moving down barrel at far lower pressure than what the regulator, valve releases etc ...
The acceleration of the pellet happens in a very short distance and this is tied to PRESSURE pure and simple ( This we can agree upon ) Trick is a word some may not be familiar with ... AMPLITUDE. which is the strength and speed in which the pressure builds. If the valve opens and closes doing so threw smaller ports, the pressure peak is reduced but duration in increased ( Lower amplitude ) If the valve is open and closes for the same period of time using LARGE ports the pressure peak is sudden and intense but has less duration. this would be ( High Amplitude )
So a pellet subjected to lower & slower rise in pressure ( smaller ports ) it will break free and start moving before peak pressure is able to get behind it. Because valve is open / close in short time span you get what we''ll call a Blow gun effect. Now take this same event threw BIG ports the pressure rises behind pellet really fast that when the pellet does break free and start moving there is more pressure packed in behind it. More a cheek slap blow gun effect.
AMPLITUDE of the pressure that gets behind pellet BEFORE IT MOVES will change the pressure within the space between valve and said pellet BECAUSE as pellet starts moving the volume behind it increases exponentially & further it moves away from where it started the pressure pushing upon it is collapsing becoming less and less due too the increasing volume.
hope this makes some sense ???
Scott, that makes perfect sense. I had not even thought about the "blow gun" effect. However, there still needs to be enough volume of HP air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel. Right? Not simply pressure alone? Otherwise, would the projectile not slow down due to friction?
Thanks!
Thats correct Kerry and how I did it was using a big .250 TP and machining a radial 6 TP design barrel thats indexable with 6x .120 ports. So high volume, high amplitude design. Scott really knows his stuff!!!
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
Generally an incorrect assumption they see equal pressure ...
Reason for is this in part, The pellet will break free and start moving down barrel at far lower pressure than what the regulator, valve releases etc ...
The acceleration of the pellet happens in a very short distance and this is tied to PRESSURE pure and simple ( This we can agree upon ) Trick is a word some may not be familiar with ... AMPLITUDE. which is the strength and speed in which the pressure builds. If the valve opens and closes doing so threw smaller ports, the pressure peak is reduced but duration in increased ( Lower amplitude ) If the valve is open and closes for the same period of time using LARGE ports the pressure peak is sudden and intense but has less duration. this would be ( High Amplitude )
So a pellet subjected to lower & slower rise in pressure ( smaller ports ) it will break free and start moving before peak pressure is able to get behind it. Because valve is open / close in short time span you get what we''ll call a Blow gun effect. Now take this same event threw BIG ports the pressure rises behind pellet really fast that when the pellet does break free and start moving there is more pressure packed in behind it. More a cheek slap blow gun effect.
AMPLITUDE of the pressure that gets behind pellet BEFORE IT MOVES will change the pressure within the space between valve and said pellet BECAUSE as pellet starts moving the volume behind it increases exponentially & further it moves away from where it started the pressure pushing upon it is collapsing becoming less and less due too the increasing volume.
hope this makes some sense ???
Scott, that makes perfect sense. I had not even thought about the "blow gun" effect. However, there still needs to be enough volume of HP air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel. Right? Not simply pressure alone? Otherwise, would the projectile not slow down due to friction?
Thanks!
Thats correct Kerry and how I did it was using a big .250 TP and machining a radial 6 TP design barrel thats indexable with 6x .120 ports. So high volume, high amplitude design. Scott really knows his stuff!!!
Thanks Travis. Slowly I am beginning to understand more and more about all of this stuff. (grin)
However, most of the really technical jargon goes right over my head and makes it hurt! (chuckle)
Edit:
Come to think of it, I shot blow guns when I was young and if you blew only from your mouth and didn't use your diaphragm to pump up the volume, the dart didn't have much velocity.It had to do with the volume of air along with the quick release/intensity of the blow. So, amplitude I guess.
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
Generally an incorrect assumption they see equal pressure ...
Reason for is this in part, The pellet will break free and start moving down barrel at far lower pressure than what the regulator, valve releases etc ...
The acceleration of the pellet happens in a very short distance and this is tied to PRESSURE pure and simple ( This we can agree upon ) Trick is a word some may not be familiar with ... AMPLITUDE. which is the strength and speed in which the pressure builds. If the valve opens and closes doing so threw smaller ports, the pressure peak is reduced but duration in increased ( Lower amplitude ) If the valve is open and closes for the same period of time using LARGE ports the pressure peak is sudden and intense but has less duration. this would be ( High Amplitude )
So a pellet subjected to lower & slower rise in pressure ( smaller ports ) it will break free and start moving before peak pressure is able to get behind it. Because valve is open / close in short time span you get what we''ll call a Blow gun effect. Now take this same event threw BIG ports the pressure rises behind pellet really fast that when the pellet does break free and start moving there is more pressure packed in behind it. More a cheek slap blow gun effect.
AMPLITUDE of the pressure that gets behind pellet BEFORE IT MOVES will change the pressure within the space between valve and said pellet BECAUSE as pellet starts moving the volume behind it increases exponentially & further it moves away from where it started the pressure pushing upon it is collapsing becoming less and less due too the increasing volume.
hope this makes some sense ???
Scott, that makes perfect sense. I had not even thought about the "blow gun" effect. However, there still needs to be enough volume of HP air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel. Right? Not simply pressure alone? Otherwise, would the projectile not slow down due to friction?
Thanks!
This is true. But if we go WAY LEFT FIELD and look at spring piston guns where they start out at zero pressure within the compression chamber then when fired PEAK at pressures that can be 2000 PSI added to by heat of the rapid compression, you will understand AMPLITUDE and low volume. Thus why a Spring piston gun has such low muzzle report, energy / pressure created is a so fast to rise it launches the pellet then collapses having very little volume of air exiting behind the pellet at muzzle. Along with many spring guns have very short barrels ( Side & under cockers ) because more barrel length buys you nothing but drag performance wise.
Longer overshrouds or barrels typically are for easier cocking in barrel breaks or longer sighting distance.
Our highly tuned PCP's are just starting to operate in this manor and why some are so oddly quiet at pretty high out output power. The SSG devises controlling dwell have played a big part .... as have light hammers and when married to reduced opening / balanced valves we are starting to realize the Amplitude of the shot cycle can pay very large dividends.
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
Generally an incorrect assumption they see equal pressure ...
Reason for is this in part, The pellet will break free and start moving down barrel at far lower pressure than what the regulator, valve releases etc ...
The acceleration of the pellet happens in a very short distance and this is tied to PRESSURE pure and simple ( This we can agree upon ) Trick is a word some may not be familiar with ... AMPLITUDE. which is the strength and speed in which the pressure builds. If the valve opens and closes doing so threw smaller ports, the pressure peak is reduced but duration in increased ( Lower amplitude ) If the valve is open and closes for the same period of time using LARGE ports the pressure peak is sudden and intense but has less duration. this would be ( High Amplitude )
So a pellet subjected to lower & slower rise in pressure ( smaller ports ) it will break free and start moving before peak pressure is able to get behind it. Because valve is open / close in short time span you get what we''ll call a Blow gun effect. Now take this same event threw BIG ports the pressure rises behind pellet really fast that when the pellet does break free and start moving there is more pressure packed in behind it. More a cheek slap blow gun effect.
AMPLITUDE of the pressure that gets behind pellet BEFORE IT MOVES will change the pressure within the space between valve and said pellet BECAUSE as pellet starts moving the volume behind it increases exponentially & further it moves away from where it started the pressure pushing upon it is collapsing becoming less and less due too the increasing volume.
hope this makes some sense ???
Scott, that makes perfect sense. I had not even thought about the "blow gun" effect. However, there still needs to be enough volume of HP air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel. Right? Not simply pressure alone? Otherwise, would the projectile not slow down due to friction?
Thanks!
This is true. But if we go WAY LEFT FIELD and look at spring piston guns where they start out at zero pressure within the compression chamber then when fired PEAK at pressures that can be 2000 PSI added to by heat of the rapid compression, you will understand AMPLITUDE and low volume. Thus why a Spring piston gun has such low muzzle report, energy / pressure created is a so fast to rise it launches the pellet then collapses having very little volume of air exiting behind the pellet at muzzle.
Our highly tuned PCP's are just starting to operate in this manor and why some are so oddly quiet at pretty high out output power. The SSG devises controlling dwell have played a big part .... as have light hammers and when married to reduced opening / balanced valves we are starting to realize the Amplitude of the shot cycle can pay very large dividends.
I only had one NP "springer" and it had SIGNIFICANT muzzle report. It was really loud.
The volume of air released behind the pellet was substantial. Of course, this was not a tuned springer, but a tuned springer still needs a certain volume of air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel before friction slows it down. In a quieter airgun (PCP or springer) it is tuned so that the volume of air is used more efficiently and there is less air behind the pellet when it exits the barrel while keeping it moving without significant loss of velocity. Of course, there is a trade off in either direction. Too much volume and the air is wasted and the report is a lot louder. Too little volume and the pellet actually slows down due to friction before it leaves the barrel, which may not be so bad if the fps is what is needed/wanted.
I shot blow guns when I was younger as I said in an earlier reply, and if you simply used your mouth air to shoot, the dart had little velocity due to little volume of air. No matter how fast or abruptly you released/blew that air into the blowgun. Only when you used your diaphragm to increase the volume of air were you able to get the velocity needed. It really took the entire body to do it effectively. So it is a combination of "amplitude" and volume of air. Both are necessary to be effective.
Anyway, I don't think we really disagree for the most part.
-
Inquiring minds would like to know if the velocity difference between the two pellets below, included changing transfer port restriction? Or just hammer strike? The FPE increase would be 40%, assuming identical pellets.
If only hammer strike, perhaps the valve did not open very wide on the 850 FPS pellet; and was actually acting as a restrictor similar to a TP restrictor, to lower peak pressure behind the pellet, as Motorhead explained.
Odd thing is that I don't think the pressure itself was higher...lower sped was a short "blip" of 3K air, high pseed was a loing "burrrrp" of 3K pressure....so a volume/duration thing rather than a peak pressure thing?
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pellets/IMG_4666_zpseb808060.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pellets/IMG_4666_zpseb808060.jpg.html)
-
An old Sumatra 2500PCP...so by the way they did the 'power wheel" adjustment, was a matter of striker stock/valve stem protrusion (able to be hit/driven in my the striker).
Yeah...know it is an odd system...one that the Sumatra's seem to be alone in using,,,it's kind of like a B-Staley O-ring mod (that limits the valve stem rod's "hit length")...but it works..and pretty much changes valve dwell rather than anything else (so the pellets still get 200BAR pressure, just for a little "blip" at lower power rather than a long "phart at high power..
-
Interesting. I wonder of Bob has any wisdom to offer. Not that this thread hasn't been diverted enough already :)
-
Think about blowing up a balloon. You have to have volume, not just pressure.
That is an interesting thought; that the added volume in the base of the blown out pellet is enough to drop the system pressure. I was thinking the same thing; except that the added volume was the pellet having moved pellet length down the barrel.
That said, if the valve closed with the pellet 25% down the barrel VS 50%, surely in both cases the pellet saw the same peak pressure; when the pellet was right close to the breech?
Generally an incorrect assumption they see equal pressure ...
Reason for is this in part, The pellet will break free and start moving down barrel at far lower pressure than what the regulator, valve releases etc ...
The acceleration of the pellet happens in a very short distance and this is tied to PRESSURE pure and simple ( This we can agree upon ) Trick is a word some may not be familiar with ... AMPLITUDE. which is the strength and speed in which the pressure builds. If the valve opens and closes doing so threw smaller ports, the pressure peak is reduced but duration in increased ( Lower amplitude ) If the valve is open and closes for the same period of time using LARGE ports the pressure peak is sudden and intense but has less duration. this would be ( High Amplitude )
So a pellet subjected to lower & slower rise in pressure ( smaller ports ) it will break free and start moving before peak pressure is able to get behind it. Because valve is open / close in short time span you get what we''ll call a Blow gun effect. Now take this same event threw BIG ports the pressure rises behind pellet really fast that when the pellet does break free and start moving there is more pressure packed in behind it. More a cheek slap blow gun effect.
AMPLITUDE of the pressure that gets behind pellet BEFORE IT MOVES will change the pressure within the space between valve and said pellet BECAUSE as pellet starts moving the volume behind it increases exponentially & further it moves away from where it started the pressure pushing upon it is collapsing becoming less and less due too the increasing volume.
hope this makes some sense ???
Scott, that makes perfect sense. I had not even thought about the "blow gun" effect. However, there still needs to be enough volume of HP air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel. Right? Not simply pressure alone? Otherwise, would the projectile not slow down due to friction?
Thanks!
This is true. But if we go WAY LEFT FIELD and look at spring piston guns where they start out at zero pressure within the compression chamber then when fired PEAK at pressures that can be 2000 PSI added to by heat of the rapid compression, you will understand AMPLITUDE and low volume. Thus why a Spring piston gun has such low muzzle report, energy / pressure created is a so fast to rise it launches the pellet then collapses having very little volume of air exiting behind the pellet at muzzle.
Our highly tuned PCP's are just starting to operate in this manor and why some are so oddly quiet at pretty high out output power. The SSG devises controlling dwell have played a big part .... as have light hammers and when married to reduced opening / balanced valves we are starting to realize the Amplitude of the shot cycle can pay very large dividends.
I only had one NP "springer" and it had SIGNIFICANT muzzle report. It was really loud.
The volume of air released behind the pellet was substantial. Of course, this was not a tuned springer, but a tuned springer still needs a certain volume of air to keep the projectile moving down the barrel before friction slows it down. In a quieter airgun (PCP or springer) it is tuned so that the volume of air is used more efficiently and there is less air behind the pellet when it exits the barrel while keeping it moving without significant loss of velocity. Of course, there is a trade off in either direction. Too much volume and the air is wasted and the report is a lot louder. Too little volume and the pellet actually slows down due to friction before it leaves the barrel, which may not be so bad if the fps is what is needed/wanted.
I shot blow guns when I was younger as I said in an earlier reply, and if you simply used your mouth air to shoot, the dart had little velocity due to little volume of air. No matter how fast or abruptly you released/blew that air into the blowgun. Only when you used your diaphragm to increase the volume of air were you able to get the velocity needed. It really took the entire body to do it effectively. So it is a combination of "amplitude" and volume of air. Both are necessary to be effective.
Anyway, I don't think we really disagree for the most part.
I think I misspoke here. Amplitude, like amps in electricity, IS the volume. The pressure is like watts.
100,000 watts can be relatively harmless if the amps are low enough. Increase the amps (volume) enough and 120 watts can be deadly.
Perhaps the dynamics of air don't work exactly that way, but at least it sounds good. (grin)
-
I think I misspoke here. Amplitude, like amps in electricity, IS the volume. The pressure is like watts.
100,000 watts can be relatively harmless if the amps are low enough. Increase the amps (volume) enough and 120 watts can be deadly.
Perhaps the dynamics of air don't work exactly that way, but at least it sounds good. (grin)
Might want to stop here as you are still "mis-speaking". Replace "watts" with "volts" and you will be a whole lot close to being correct. Power (wattage) is the product of voltage and amperage. W=VxA
Amps are the "volume", but the "pressure" is the voltage.
-
If we only had some .20 cal slugs to choose from,that would be great!!
-
If we only had some .20 cal slugs to choose from,that would be great!!
+1... ;D
-
They're coming.
Nick from NSA has mentioned it a couple times on forum posts, here and AGN.
He also commented the same in a recent video where Dana (Crosman999 I think) went to NSA for a factory tour and Q&A with Nick.
-
They're coming.
Nick from NSA has mentioned it a couple times on forum posts, here and AGN.
He also commented the same in a recent video where Dana (Crosman999 I think) went to NSA for a factory tour and Q&A with Nick.
thats great, Nick knows i'm waiting..... 8)
-
Use to be a lot of choices in 5mm pellets...this certainly isn't all of them,but what I had on hand.
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/5mm/DSCF2044.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/5mm/DSCF2044.jpg.html)
Most of them we're better off without...eveidently the makers found it profitible for a time, but no one really misses crappy pellets, and only decent 5mm pellets seem to have survived.
Just using PA as a reference...seems to be a chopice of 6 pellets now. So long as at least one of the 6 shoots well, who cares?
But If you do go 5mm, I'd buy a lot of pellets while I could...it's a shrinking market, and no airgun is real useful without ammo.
"Down" to 4 5mm's (which is still more than my .25 count). One co2 (HW rebarrel), one springer, two PCP's.
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/5mm/8a37188e-ca63-48fb-8991-db3721bb7df7.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/5mm/8a37188e-ca63-48fb-8991-db3721bb7df7.jpg.html)
So I guess I like the caliber. Other than a fondness,really don't see it as "stand alone better".
Can quote ballistics that show it to be "better" than most .177's...or some .22's...but PCP's velocity/power ability kind of changed the equation.
-
If we only had some .20 cal slugs to choose from,that would be great!!
Lets first realize for the time being and past, the .20 caliber is a PELLET caliber. While over the years there have been a lot more choices in .20 that we don't see today, what we do have today covers the caliber quite well with all ( Except the benjamin) shooting VERY very accurately in most guns.
H&N FTT at 11.4 grains
H&N Crow Magnum at 12.8 grains
JSB Exact at 13.7 grains
H&N Barracuda at 13.6 grains
JSB Exact heavy at 15.9 grains
*While the Sam Yang / Eugun can be found overseas ( Korea ) there at 23.7 grains
Honestly that is not the desert of despair some make it out to be for the lowly .20 cal
-
Scott,
I want to note that none of the guns/barrels I've owned have liked two different weight JSB pellets (@ the same or different fps) as much as this .20 seems to in Travis's videos. All my other guns in different calibers have just liked one weight of JSB and not cared much for others.
You hear about dies wearing out and pellets not being as accurate from lots that were produced later in the life of a die.
Makes a guy wonder if fewer .20 pellets sold means fewer made which means less wear on the dies which equates to better (more consistent) quality pellets.
-
my shinsung .20 barrel is not choked, so i'd like to try slugs.
being not choked, it seems not to effect accuracy out to 35yrds,
could this be another mystery :o
35-40yrds is my hunting limit and i'm not concerned about any further.
-
Scott,
I want to note that none of the guns/barrels I've owned have liked two different weight JSB pellets (@ the same or different fps) as much as this .20 seems to in Travis's videos. All my other guns in different calibers have just liked one weight of JSB and not cared much for others.
You hear about dies wearing out and pellets not being as accurate from lots that were produced later in the life of a die.
Makes a guy wonder if fewer .20 pellets sold means fewer made which means less wear on the dies which equates to better (more consistent) quality pellets.
No idea on the JSB manufacturing of .20's ?
I do however have still @ 4 tins of the Older GOLD / BLACK label which shoot phenomenal, the more recent RED label shoots so well in comparison I don't shoot the old stuff and keep it just because.
Honestly in shooting .20 cal in FT competition now for 4 seasons using production red tin .20's I've never seen much if any notable shift in QC. pending how pellets get handled, shipping or personal indeed has effect ... there thin skirts do damage easily.
-
I have a couple... 'Dan Pumper, Beeman Springer, and CO2.
The CO2 gun is based around a NOS, LW .20 barrel from Sterling I found on ebay and built a gun around it. I have JSB, H&N, even Benjiman pellets, they all shoot well.
I don't think there is anything magical about the .20, but it sure is accurate enough for me.
-
An econmic "loser" for any pellet maker....but there are a few old PCP's that really thrived on heavier weight 5mm pellets (and if there is an advantage to the ballistics of a 5mm, it wouler be with the heavy weights...like 20-25 grains).
Actually, I'm (pleasantly) surprized that JSB intorduced the 15.9gr....really aren't that many 5mm shooters, and fewer still that could actually make use of the weight.
The lkife exepctancy of my old Sumatra could be measured in the number ot tins of 23gr. pellets...lets sayn 6 1/4tins of those still stashed away. Considering all the 5mm'S ever made, likely the Summatra is the only reason that weight was ever made.
With those at 900-950 fps (still not max speed) was my frist experice with a "laser" type trajectory.
With today's pellet/slug slection,and the more powerful PCP's to go along with them, the .22's and .25's do the same thing better.
Can see for the above post, I like the 5mm....but it ain't magic.
-
I had a Sheridan Blue Streak about a thousand years ago...can't remember WHAT brand pellet I used but there was only one brand anyway as I recall that I could find locally and I liked that is was nicely round nosed nosed.
I LOVED that gun.
Had it rebuild twice when the "chains/o'rings" went bad. Used it on crows, rabbits, quail, dove and, of course RATZ.
Kept my refrig stocked with edible game while going to college,(some from the college campus)...VERY cheaply.
Nostalgia keeps me looking at today's offerings...Maybe one will find it's way into my locker someday.
Good Shooting
-
.......I like the 5mm....but it ain't magic.
I've shot A LOT of .177 pellets at 20fpe and about 8tins of. 22 at 20fpe with a Veteran, and 12 tins of .22 @18fpe with an old Disco. A lot of that has been in windy conditions. I live in a place where 20-30mph winds are normal and 70mph gusts happen probably 10-15 days a year. The air will get brown on those nasty days from all the dirt picked up, can literally taste the air and feel the grit in mouths and eyes. I feel like I've got a good handle on 20fpe in the wind.
I'm with Travis that I dunno what's going on in with how resistant the .20 is in his videos, but that much movement on a wind flag will REQUIRE accounting for the wind, even if trying to time shots between gusts. He's holding dead on and not getting any lateral drift
Physics is physics so there's no magic here, but I can't wait to do some shooting in serious wind and see what's going on.
-
AirForce is seeing a need on new .20's.
Their Talon and Condor both can be bought that way.
-
Best effort from years ago...with most of the pelletw shown in my last post and an open-sight Sheridan C.
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/5mm/SUNP0002_1.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/5mm/SUNP0002_1.jpg.html)
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/5mm/IMG_4622.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/5mm/IMG_4622.jpg.html)
Gave that rifle to my oldest nehew to take cae of a squirrel problem...so there is at least one clean example of the Shreidan "C" in Apison, Tenn.
-
I think I misspoke here. Amplitude, like amps in electricity, IS the volume. The pressure is like watts.
100,000 watts can be relatively harmless if the amps are low enough. Increase the amps (volume) enough and 120 watts can be deadly.
Perhaps the dynamics of air don't work exactly that way, but at least it sounds good. (grin)
Might want to stop here as you are still "mis-speaking". Replace "watts" with "volts" and you will be a whole lot close to being correct. Power (wattage) is the product of voltage and amperage. W=VxA
Amps are the "volume", but the "pressure" is the voltage.
Yes, I meant volts. It was late when I posted that and I had a brain fart.
-
I have the .20 barrel on my Condor SS right now. It seems good, but I haven't got it dialed yet.
-
Franklink:
We think down different paths. Low sales may mean the dies see service for a longer time, but once they do wear out and need replacement....the choice for the maker is to spend the $ for new dies and production runs for a LOW sales item, or spend the $ on new dies and production time for a higher sales item.
Which kind of explains why the 5mm once had 17-20 choices in pellets...and it pretty much down to 4 now.
-
Franklink:
We think down different paths. Low sales may mean the dies see service for a longer time, but once they do wear out and need replacement....the choice for the maker is to spend the $ for new dies and production runs for a LOW sales item, or spend the $ on new dies and production time for a higher sales item.
Which kind of explains why the 5mm once had 17-20 choices in pellets...and it pretty much down to 4 now.
Agree completely its just not a popular bore size but once was.
-
.20 cal Raptors start making noise at field target competitions this spring that trend could start swinging back the other way...I have a call into JSAR about barrel kits....if Travis will do one I would go with the .20 cal kit for my .30 cal raptor and give it a run this summer in Utah competitions (Bench and FT Hunter Class). Travis where will you be shooting your first FT? I would love to see that!
-
With JSB offering their new "Heavies" I do not feel the .20 is being forsaken.
-
.20 cal Raptors start making noise at field target competitions this spring that trend could start swinging back the other way...
Hate to say so, but I doubt it. There just isn't much noise to be made about field target. Other than WFTF, I haven't seen much sponsorships or money being thrown towards field target by the big industry players.
Most of the attention the industry gets by manufacturers seems to be pointed at the big events like EBR, RMAC, and PA Cup. Even though there are only those 3 in a year. Volume-wise, there seems to be many more field target competitors. Some places in the US even have a match every month. Big money isn't paying much attention to FT, even the bigger events like Nationals dont garner the sponsorship money and buzz that you see with those three events.
It would be pretty awesome if FT matches started offering prize money and could turn the sport into a big corporate draw.
For example, Motorheads been shooting the .20 for, four years I think he said. He won the Hunter Class Nationals in PHX in 2018, and was also the match high score, and I'm pretty sure that was with a .20. That didn't make JSB jump on the .20 bandwagon and start making a bunch of new pellets in .20. (Well I guess the 15.89 gr came out since then but I think unrelated).
FT is just low-key and doesn't have the buzz of the big events. Too bad, cuz most field target guys are willing to throw the dollars at equipment. So, there's gold to be had there, for a manufacturer and retailer, they just don't seem to put much emphasis on digging for it.
-
Franklink:
We think down different paths. Low sales may mean the dies see service for a longer time, but once they do wear out and need replacement....the choice for the maker is to spend the $ for new dies and production runs for a LOW sales item, or spend the $ on new dies and production time for a higher sales item.
Which kind of explains why the 5mm once had 17-20 choices in pellets...and it pretty much down to 4 now.
Agree completely its just not a popular bore size but once was.
When put that way, yes, completely plausible take on the. 20 situation. I was just grasping straws as to why this small sample of .20 accuracy seems so promising.
Also completely plausible that I've just hyped myself up so much about my. 20 Raptor that I'm looking through rose-colored glasses.
Ah well, it'll be here soon enough for me to see for myself whether or not there's magic to be had with the .20.
-
Havent shot a .20 yet, but had started to build one on a Marauder platform (have some extra parts) with a TJ's barrel.
I was ready to order the barrel early summer, but lots of bad things happened, one being my house flooded, and have been living in condos since July. So no progress on the .20 build, nor any airgun shooting >:(
Anyway I had already started purchasing some pellets, two I haven't seen mentioned are the Benjamin P50 cylindrical pellet and the polymags. I found a deal on the Polymags for 6.99 a tin and ordered like 9 tins. Also have some Barracudas, and a few others to try.
We shall see if they shoot at SOME point. They finally started rebuilding my house 2 days ago ;D
-
Ture...the target posted a few slots above is an old one...and from a Sheridan (was kind of proof of why the reciver of it was getting several boxes of pellets he never heard of).
I've no complaints about the PCP accuracy of the Crosman CP's, JSB's in either weight. Althoughthe CP's are "gone". THe H&N Field TArgets can be good in a 20 foot pound PCP,but haven't been good when driven toio fast (which some5mm PCP's do tend to do in thier natural state).
I'll miss the 5mm once it takes it's fina; dirt nape...which isn't likely in the next 10 years or so (which is about right for me personally).
IF you were to take a jump into 5mm PCP waters, I'd add to the cost quite a bit....would test all the in productionpellets,and order as much of the best 5mm pellets I could affort.
May be wrong...maybe the 5mm will have a revival.....but even if you bought a bunch of 5mm pellets today,do you really think they'd be cheaper 5 or 10 years from now?
-
.20 cal Raptors start making noise at field target competitions this spring that trend could start swinging back the other way...
Hate to say so, but I doubt it. There just isn't much noise to be made about field target. Other than WFTF, I haven't seen much sponsorships or money being thrown towards field target by the big industry players.
It would be pretty awesome if FT matches started offering prize money and could turn the sport into a big corporate draw.
For example, Motorheads been shooting the .20 for, four years I think he said. He won the Hunter Class Nationals in PHX in 2018, and was also the match high score, and I'm pretty sure that was with a .20. That didn't make JSB jump on the .20 bandwagon and start making a bunch of new pellets in .20. (Well I guess the 15.89 gr came out since then but I think unrelated).
Factory support, Big money behind Who and What they shoot would do more harm than good in the Field Target game. As it is, I see FT as a Gentleman's game played by most who wish to have fun and get along with others playing the same game. You against the Course being a level playing field. Money spent on equipment does not equate to being good shot. The atmosphere now is one of folks doing there best, learning the game while being competitive too. Add Big bucks it turns into an arms race with primarily the best shooters shooting the best equipment leaving everyone else as contributors to the Purse money they will likely never win. Now ANOTHER ORGANIZATION removed from the AAFTA being a Professional FT Association with differing rules and a purpose of Air Gun promotion ... Absolutely
This is true and while looking at the nation as a whole in the FT ranks, with the success of the 2018 AATFT Nationals, the .20 cal definitely got a nod as a capable FT caliber. As a west coast Caliber ( Where Lived and Shoot ) the lowly .20 cal has indeed been put into use at a much increased frequency. Those shooting FT with .20's has absolutely increased with rave reviews in the > .20fpe classes.
Be careful what you wish for .... JMO
Scott
-
Wish there was more AG shooters near me, let alone an FT club.
That would be AWSOME!
-
A dissenting view.
First: Don't really care for organized competition....have enough self-competition to entertain me,so while I once did look into FT shooting, decided it wasn't for me. Might be the rat'srump for you, it just ain't for me.
Second: Do like moderate power PCP's(the ones running between 12 and 25 foot pounds)...which seems perfect for 5mm's.
Third: Can see where a 20 foot pound limit would really favor the little/lighter pellets over the bigger/heavier pellets. MOre so when they have to pass thopugh a circle (where C-T-C would be a negative for the same size grouping).
Fourth: Other than already owning a 5mm at the power limit for a certain game...is there any good reason to pick a 5mm?
Sounds harsh....but I do like the 5mm's I have....but don't really see them as a "solution" to any particular problem.
If I'm wrong about that last, would aprrciate being educated as to "why".
(Just saying...if it is not enough to just like the 5mm,then give me some reasonings...something besides the "luck of the draw" when, " I got X rifle and I got Y rifle, and the Y rifle does better" as that could easily be reversed with different rifles/barrels/pellets).
-
I put the .20 barrel on my Condor SS as a bit of an experiment. I know Motorhead likes the .20 for field target. The Ring loc kit makes tuning for power easy, so I thought why not. I plan to shoot it at least a few matches and see how it goes. I have it in a Mad Dog stock for stability and added a scope rail to the bottom to mount a hamster to. there are probably weaknesses with the platform that I am not aware of, but the 13.5 gr pellets combined with the 3.3" scope height make for a pretty flat shooting combination on the long ranges. Hopefully I won't drop too many points on the short targets, I may have to work up the close side of my click chart in half yard increments.
-
I was shooting my theoben rapid 12 last sunday 20 cal very nice gun.
-
This "vintage" R10 is a sweet shooting .20
-
A dissenting view.
Sounds harsh....but I do like the 5mm's I have....but don't really see them as a "solution" to any particular problem.
If I'm wrong about that last, would aprrciate being educated as to "why".
In FT ... at the >20 fpe limit they have exhibited far less wind drift and my figured BC runs +/- .040/.044 which is vastly better than the .024/.026 I see with 10.3 grain .177's. They drop more over range but not an issue with good range D.O.P.E. the required corrections a no brainer.
Another being in FT we get SPLITS that catch the corner of a KZ hole and typically in .177 that KILLS the retained energy seldom knocking down a target even tho a bunch of lead scatters across the paddle.
In .20 cal because were not only a tad heavier, it has more retained energy at target and if you get a split more times than not the target still falls.
Reason enough for me .... after taking 1st place in 4 State championships, a nationals title and GP win shooting a .20 caliber, I'm sold and likely never again to shoot FT at >20 fpe with a .177 ever again !!
-
Do think FT is the one game where 5mm has shot.Do end up with several PCP's (.177/5mm/22) at about the right energy level (20 foot pounds), even though I don't play that game.
If that's where the 5mm fits in,then promote it some more...I like the caliber and would be pleased to see a little up-tic in the offerings.
-
Do think FT is the one game where 5mm has shot.Do end up with several PCP's (.177/5mm/22) at about the right energy level (20 foot pounds), even though I don't play that game.
If that's where the 5mm fits in,then promote it some more...I like the caliber and would be pleased to see a little up-tic in the offerings.
Talk to the folks at FX .. they seem to have a handle on flavor of the moment marketing :o
In all seriousness, whats currently offered in .20 pellets more than covers near any application of the caliber. And when shot at realistic speeds for the weight we can get ... simply outstanding results can be had.