GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: FuzzyGrub on September 24, 2019, 09:37:00 PM
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For my upcoming Liberty 25 cal conversion, went looking for a baffle option. I found a seller on ebay that was doing 3D printed ones for Gauntlet and Freedom. I found the seller very easy to work with. Communication was excellent. His baffles are caliber specific, but didn't have any 25 cal Freedom. He was also very willing to adjust length to whatever barrel length / shroud spacing I needed. I opted for the standard Freedom set of 4 baffles and barrel stop, + 3 additional baffles. He was running prototypes as soon as we agreed. The prototypes came out fine and quickly produced and shipped them.
They are designed such that the shroud end plug does not fully seat to keep tension on the baffles. If this is an issue, can easily flat sand a baffle or barrel stop to fit your gun exactly. I installed them in one of my 22 Liberty's for now. Plan to do some side-by-side comparisons with a stock 22, when I get a chance.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-Nova-Freedom-baffles-for-177-or-22-CAL/202668313689?hash=item2f2ff90c59:m:mjtqhx49B58npOgjgjyXzRA&var=502753495505 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-Nova-Freedom-baffles-for-177-or-22-CAL/202668313689?hash=item2f2ff90c59:m:mjtqhx49B58npOgjgjyXzRA&var=502753495505)
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Sounds super. Following and waiting for your results.
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I was looking at those. Interested on how good or bad they work. Want to get some for my Liberty but don't want to waste my money on something that doesn't work.
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Following...
Just what I was wondering/looking for. I was chatting with another member about making baffles or insert for the 6" or so in the Freedom. Curious how these work in such a small volume.
Please post your results in sound and accuracy affect. Thanks.
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If ya need an air stripper let me know. Can print one for you. I went more of a k style baffle.
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If ya need an air stripper let me know. Can print one for you. I went more of a k style baffle.
Rod, have you done any testing? Does it achieve like Mrod sound level? I have to admit that the Freedom isn't as bad as I though it was going to be but it is definitely louder than my Mrod.
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No real testing, just by sound. Stephen did a test with Hajimotos baffles in one of his vids and only dropped 2-3db. Id say about the same. But it does change the tone from a sharp to a more muted tone. Perceived sound i think its referred to. Hush like adding a moderator? No. Better than stock? Yes.
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On my 1st Liberty I used Mrod baffels within a section of Mrod shroud, slid into the Liberty shroud. It was quieter, but not mrod quiet. I then moved the shroud forward 1.75" and added more baffles and that made a good difference. I'd say much closer to mrod quiet.
These baffles wouldn't have the slight volume loss of the approach above, but expecting about the same results. The 25 barrel will be 20" which is shorter than oem. This gun needs volume in front of the muzzle.
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Fuzzy
Have you drilled holes in the barrel support under the shroud, to allow backflow to the entire shroud to help dissipate air?
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Fuzzy
Have you drilled holes in the barrel support under the shroud, to allow backflow to the entire shroud to help dissipate air?
I have not done that yet. The large o-ring grooves don't leave much room between the barrel and them for drilling. An air stripper/support would be better.
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Rod provided me one of his 3D printed air strippers. :D It is kinda like a Mrod air stripper, but much better designed. It has four triangular areas to pass air back to the shroud and a cone in the center to help strip air away. Very nice!
Now, will test with this and then with venting the shroud, aka Hajimotto style. Look forward to testing.
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Rod surprised me with including a 3D printed barrel band for the Liberty. Looks great and look forward to trying that on. :)
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Fuzzy
Very interested in your results as I have only drilled holes in all of the barrel supports for my Libertys & Freedoms. I assume the stripper replaces the barrel support and the provided band is matched to the stripper. I do have all of the shrouds vented with at least 4 small holes about an inch ahead of the breech.
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Thought I'd share what I got from Dave EZman when at the fun shoot this spring, noticed how quiet his Liberty was, told me it was a scotch brite pad held in place by a half inch spring from Lowes. I reproduced the same after coming home from the shoot and am still pleased at how quiet it is, cheap easy fix. I shoot out my family room window all the time at a target 30 yards away and it doesn't even frighten the birds on my feeder not 10 yards from the window, that or the birds are deaf. ;D
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Hi all,
I am the maker of the baffles in the first post.
Just for you information I took sound measurements of my 22 cal Liberty rifle at 12 feet the muzzle even with the end of the barrel. The stock configuration produced an average of 93.6 dB. The baffle set measured at the same point produced and average of 84.9 dB.
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FYI- Ran into some stumbling blocks with finishing up a Liberty. I still plan to do these tests, but it will be at least a week out than planned. :(
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I was wandering around the Dollar Store and found these two items. I home rolled three and they fit perfectly in the Freedom shroud after I trimmed 1" off the scrubby pad. I didn't take sound test but will try to later. But it seems only slightly quieter. What I've concluded is much of the sound is the ping and not the pop. It really isn't that bad but given the size of the air tube I'm guessing there isn't much you can do to eliminate the ping?
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Pulling the trigger when out of the stock, it seems that a lot of the sound is a spring ringing. Hammer spring i would assume, its in the action.
Liberty rings because there are two resonating chambers on the front.
My freedoms seem quieter because of the pump hardware. And a crosman baffle seemed to stop any sound coming off of the barrel, just like damping a bell.
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Thought I'd share what I got from Dave EZman when at the fun shoot this spring, noticed how quiet his Liberty was, told me it was a scotch brite pad held in place by a half inch spring from Lowes. I reproduced the same after coming home from the shoot and am still pleased at how quiet it is, cheap easy fix. I shoot out my family room window all the time at a target 30 yards away and it doesn't even frighten the birds on my feeder not 10 yards from the window, that or the birds are deaf. ;D
I'd like to play with that idea tracker1955
How long was the spring you used?
I assume it overlaps the barrel
Does it go all he way in against the barrel support/spacer?
Thanks
Ed
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Just installed a set of the baffles that GTA member hair makes and I can tell a huge difference. With the baffles both my liberty’s are more than backyard friendly not James Bond silent but a whole lot quieter. I put 22 baffles in my stock Liberty and 25 baffles in my hopped up liberty. Both were a great improvement. I do need to note that although both guns were what I considered back yard friendly before, when I went to install the new baffles there were no factory baffles in either gun.
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Thought I'd share what I got from Dave EZman when at the fun shoot this spring, noticed how quiet his Liberty was, told me it was a scotch brite pad held in place by a half inch spring from Lowes. I reproduced the same after coming home from the shoot and am still pleased at how quiet it is, cheap easy fix. I shoot out my family room window all the time at a target 30 yards away and it doesn't even frighten the birds on my feeder not 10 yards from the window, that or the birds are deaf. ;D
What OD spring did you use? I using washers and copper tubing spacers to quite my Liberty down along with drilling passages through the muzzel end shroud/barrel support along with a couple of 1/8" holes through the shroud near the receiver. I'd like to try tracker's method and see if it's quieter. Even with the garage door closed my wife still hears me when I'm doing some crono work.
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I was wandering around the Dollar Store and found these two items. I home rolled three and they fit perfectly in the Freedom shroud after I trimmed 1" off the scrubby pad. I didn't take sound test but will try to later. But it seems only slightly quieter. What I've concluded is much of the sound is the ping and not the pop. It really isn't that bad but given the size of the air tube I'm guessing there isn't much you can do to eliminate the ping?
Exactly what I have been using in the Freedom shroud and my DIY 1" PVC pipe LDC.
The LDC does make a difference, but working with the shroud only, does not make much difference.
Actually, I am starting to believe that leaving the shroud alone and simply adding the DIY LDC works better.
I think that may be because leaving the shroud alone leaves more volume for it to work as the first expansion chamber.
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I have a video on a custom LDC I build for my Liberty but the admins on the forum doesn't allow posting that type of video on this platform. That still my go to LDC on my Liberty works really well!
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I have a video on a custom LDC I build for my Liberty but the admins on the forum doesn't allow posting that type of video on this platform. That still my go to LDC on my Liberty works really well!
You can publish the video on Youtube, allowing public access; and the post the link here ( & provide the title.)
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I was wandering around the Dollar Store and found these two items. I home rolled three and they fit perfectly in the Freedom shroud after I trimmed 1" off the scrubby pad. I didn't take sound test but will try to later. But it seems only slightly quieter. What I've concluded is much of the sound is the ping and not the pop. It really isn't that bad but given the size of the air tube I'm guessing there isn't much you can do to eliminate the ping?
Exactly what I have been using in the Freedom shroud and my DIY 1" PVC pipe LDC.
The LDC does make a difference, but working with the shroud only, does not make much difference.
Actually, I am starting to believe that leaving the shroud alone and simply adding the DIY LDC works better.
I think that may be because leaving the shroud alone leaves more volume for it to work as the first expansion chamber.
Agreed BackStop
An LDC trumps baffles!
I'm not much of a DIY guy; but I have Froggy 6 inch LDC that float from rifle to rifle.
The LDC makes the guns quiet whereas the baffles do not
That's an interesting idea of yours that an LDC is more effective without baffles in the shroud
Ed
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I was wandering around the Dollar Store and found these two items. I home rolled three and they fit perfectly in the Freedom shroud after I trimmed 1" off the scrubby pad. I didn't take sound test but will try to later. But it seems only slightly quieter. What I've concluded is much of the sound is the ping and not the pop. It really isn't that bad but given the size of the air tube I'm guessing there isn't much you can do to eliminate the ping?
Exactly what I have been using in the Freedom shroud and my DIY 1" PVC pipe LDC.
The LDC does make a difference, but working with the shroud only, does not make much difference.
Actually, I am starting to believe that leaving the shroud alone and simply adding the DIY LDC works better.
I think that may be because leaving the shroud alone leaves more volume for it to work as the first expansion chamber.
The thing I don't like about adding a ldc is it makes the rifle so long. It's not like I hunt so the length would not be a problem but just don't like the look. Just my personnel opinion.
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Be very careful of which type of scouring pads you use. they are avaliable both with and without grit or cleaner in them. Any suppression type used will cause back flow into the bore. Carrying the grit into the bore. Exactly where you don't want it.
You don't want grit entering the bore. Ever! I found the non abrasive pads at the General Dollar store for about half the price of the versions with abrasives in them.
Knife
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Be very careful of which type of scouring pads you use. they are avaliable both with and without grit or cleaner in them. Any suppression type used will cause back flow into the bore. Carrying the grit into the bore. Exactly where you don't want it.
You don't want grit entering the bore. Ever! I found the non abrasive pads at the General Dollar store for about half the price of the versions with abrasives in them.
Knife
Very GOOD advice.
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Ok, some time for testing today.
The set-up is my basement 10yd range. Please ignore the mess. ;) I mounted the sound meter to the front of the chrony. It is about 2' past the muzzle, perpendicular to the shot. Set on the 90db range. For each test, I took 8 - 10 shots to get a relative consistent reading and recorded the analog meter with my iPhone.
Please note, this is a modified sound meter from my old speaker design obsession days. The importance, will be relative to each other, vs any absolute value.
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So, you always hear me compare the Liberty to the Mrod, so tested a 25 cal Mrod as a baseline. This is a regulated gun, tuned to 40fpe, for a somewhat efficient 32+ shots from a 3K fill, using 25g Kings. It has only the stock baffle system. I got readings that ranged from 89 - 91db, with 90db being the most consistent.
Next was a 22 Liberty, tuned to 30+fpe w/JSB 18.1g. Shooting them at the 860fps range. The readings were between 94 - 96db, with 95db the most consistent. The first couple of shots did not behave any different than the follow on.
Next was the Ebay baffles. This included the barrel stand-off, with four 25 cal baffles, not 22. Testing showed a range of 92 - 94db with 93db the most consistent.
Up next will be a test with Rod's AS with the oem spacer removed.
Results so far:
25 Mrod (40FPE): 90db
22 Liberty Stock (30FPE): 95db
22 Liberty Ebay Baffles (30FPE): 93db
Subjectively, I'd say the results so far, the Mrod seems quieter than both Liberty configurations. The Ebay baffles, make an improvement, but not close to the baseline Mrod.
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22 Liberty (30FPE), Removed OEM spacer, installed Rod's AS, no baffles: 92 - 94db, with 93db being the most consistent.
22 Liberty (30FPE), Removed OEM spacer, installed Rod's AS, 3 Ebay 25 cal baffles, baffle spring: 91 - 93db, with 92db being the most consistent.
Next up, venting the shroud.
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Cool comparisons John. Your sneaking up on 90db.
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Cool testing Fuzzy.
I have three of Rods spacers on the way. Rod will they be here today??? Hah! Can't wait.
My Liberty has a monocore designed and printed by GEO. I absolutely love it, and we were working through a few iterations with me taking sound readings with my phone.
I learned a few things in the process:
The sound readings don't mean as much as they would seem. Meaning perceived sound levels and measured sound levels are not the same.
Shooting location can make a big difference. My bench is under a deck on a paved driveway with a car on one side and a wall behind and next to me (about 8' wide). my targets are 30 yds out about 5 yds to the right of a small bar.All of my guns sound quite loud at the bench due to sound bounce, even off of the barn. When I take them out in the wide open away from buildings they become extremely quite. Including my 40 FPE Liberty. I am still wary when shooting from the bench of noise levels.
I am not discounting sound level measurements as they are perhaps the only way to make a comparison, but when I shoot without the baffles and with the differences sound like more than 2 decibels. (By the way I had very similar results).
Fun stuff This!
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I modified the shroud, with three 0.150" holes, about 1 1/4" from the shroud end. They should be about in the middle of the 1" magic eraser.
22 Liberty, vented shroud, Rod's AS, no baffles: 92 - 94db, with 93 db being the most consistent.
22 Liberty, vented shroud, Rod's AS, three Ebay 25 cal baffles, baffle spring: 91db - 93db, with 92db being the most consistent.
So, from a db standpoint, no improvement going to a vented shroud. Subjectively, the tone seemed lower though. This is consistent with experiments I did on a prod shroud, years ago.
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The next test I want to do, is moving the shroud forward and adding baffles. That requires taking the barrel off and modifying the rear shroud mount, so it can slide forward on the thicker part of the barrel. No time for that, right now.
I pulled my first 22 Liberty out. This gun has the shroud moved forward 1 3/4", six Mrod baffles and baffle spring. It has a short section of mrod shroud in it to keep baffles centered. It has a Mrod AS with a washer in front of it. It still has the oem spacer with no holes in it.
This gun is shooting the JSB's a little faster than the 22 above, in the 880's.
22 Liberty (31FPE), six Mrod baffles, spring, shroud shift 1.75": 89 - 90db, with 90db the most consistent. Subjectively quieter than the other Liberty, in any of the configs.
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Results:
25 Mrod (40FPE): 90db
22 Liberty Stock (30FPE): 95db
22 Liberty Ebay Baffles (30FPE): 93db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, No Baffles (30FPE): 93db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, 3 Ebay 25 cal baffles w/spring (30FPE): 92db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, No Baffles, vented shroud (30FPE): 93db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, 3 Ebay 25 cal baffles w/spring, vented shroud (30FPE): 92db
22 Liberty (different gun than above), 6 mrod baffles, 1.75" shifted shroud (31FPE): 90db
My conclusions:
- Not going to bother venting any more shrouds. The tone is lower, and this vented one will go in the 25 cal build.
- Liberty needs more shroud and baffle space in front of muzzle
- My 177 and 22's will be modified like I did with my 1st Liberty. I have the shroud section and crosman baffles are very inexpensive.
- The 25 build will use the seven ebay 25 cal baffles, Rod's AS, and associated spacing with the shorter 20" barrel.
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Ray, the environment will always play a role. Outdoors, sound is reflected and absorbed differently than in the basement range. If it wasn't raining, I was going to shoot off the back porch (1/2 space), but that also gets tricky with background noise. If you are away from the house, that would be full space. The grass covered ground does not provide any reflection.
I can say subjectively, my mrod, and mrod baffled Liberty are still much quieter, when shooting outdoors.
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Results:
25 Mrod (40FPE): 90db
22 Liberty Stock (30FPE): 95db
22 Liberty Ebay Baffles (30FPE): 93db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, No Baffles (30FPE): 93db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, 3 Ebay 25 cal baffles w/spring (30FPE): 92db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, No Baffles, vented shroud (30FPE): 93db
22 Liberty, R's AS, no oem spacer, 3 Ebay 25 cal baffles w/spring, vented shroud (30FPE): 92db
22 Liberty (different gun than above), 6 mrod baffles, 1.75" shifted shroud (31FPE): 90db
My conclusions:
- Not going to bother venting any more shrouds. The tone is lower, and this vented one will go in the 25 cal build.
- Liberty needs more shroud and baffle space in front of muzzle
- My 177 and 22's will be modified like I did with my 1st Liberty. I have the shroud section and crosman baffles are very inexpensive.
- The 25 build will use the seven ebay 25 cal baffles, Rod's AS, and associated spacing with the shorter 20" barrel.
Thanks for posting your test results!
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FWIW: 3db is equal to a doubling of sound pressure. It is not a linear scale.
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Fuzzy
Thanks for all the great work you did. Always quite a subjective subject. Everyones ear is a little different (frequency response and amplitude etc).
The best information I have ever read about moderators, was a post in AGN, by Sto who designed powder burner moderators for the industry. In a multi page comparison of airgun moderators titled "Moderator Design,Testing & Evaluation, he tests almost all of the commercially available moderators for air guns. Long, difficult to read and somewhat difficult to interpret, my take away was LEGNTH HELPS.
If I'm reading your conclusion right, it's simmilar? Distance past the barrel improves sound attenuation. Therefore moderators become a compromise of legnth, diameter, weight, looks and expense. For me, cheap and easy to obtain 95 % effeciency is O. K..
Again thanks for doing the comparison, it helps me accept the theory of diminishing returns.
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I’d say that the space in the front of the barrel has more of a benefit than maximizing the use of the shroud. How much is due to volume vs baffles vs length, would be allot more testing. This was enough to convince me what is the best direction for my Liberty’s.
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FWIW: 3db is equal to a doubling of sound pressure. It is not a linear scale.
What did you use to measure the db?
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FWIW: 3db is equal to a doubling of sound pressure. It is not a linear scale.
What did you use to measure the db?
The RS meter pictured in post #28.
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FWIW: 3db is equal to a doubling of sound pressure. It is not a linear scale.
This I did not know! This explains why my readings were so disappointing relative to my perception.
Thank You
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Received Rods barrel spacers today. Really nice pieces. I installed one in my liberty tonight and adjusted the baffle stack. Shoots perfectly with no loss of accuracy.
Thank you Rod!
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Fuzzy
Thanks for all the great work you did. Always quite a subjective subject. Everyones ear is a little different (frequency response and amplitude etc).
The best information I have ever read about moderators, was a post in AGN, by Sto who designed powder burner moderators for the industry. In a multi page comparison of airgun moderators titled "Moderator Design,Testing & Evaluation, he tests almost all of the commercially available moderators for air guns. Long, difficult to read and somewhat difficult to interpret, my take away was LEGNTH HELPS.
If I'm reading your conclusion right, it's simmilar? Distance past the barrel improves sound attenuation. Therefore moderators become a compromise of legnth, diameter, weight, looks and expense. For me, cheap and easy to obtain 95 % effeciency is O. K..
Again thanks for doing the comparison, it helps me accept the theory of diminishing returns.
Volume (area) is the most important factor with length of a moderator being more important than diameter. At least that is my perception from my own testing and reading.
With the Freedom, there simply isn't much volume to work with in the shroud without making modifications, which don't seem to make enough difference for the trouble.
So, you either deal with an LDC and the added "barrel" length or just accept the noise levels you have. JMHO
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I am sure a 5-6" LDC would quiet this down, but it makes for a heck of a broomstick. Even with bench shooting I would be bumping against things. Removing for hunting is a plus, though. Keeping the shroud in its place, and the different modifications, did make a difference, but not significant. For some people, that probably will be plenty. I feel sacrificing the 2" in length does provide enough benefit without the broomstick. If keeping the current length and being quiet, are the priorities, shorten the barrel to 20".
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Fuzzy
Thanks for all the great work you did. Always quite a subjective subject. Everyones ear is a little different (frequency response and amplitude etc).
The best information I have ever read about moderators, was a post in AGN, by Sto who designed powder burner moderators for the industry. In a multi page comparison of airgun moderators titled "Moderator Design,Testing & Evaluation, he tests almost all of the commercially available moderators for air guns. Long, difficult to read and somewhat difficult to interpret, my take away was LEGNTH HELPS.
If I'm reading your conclusion right, it's simmilar? Distance past the barrel improves sound attenuation. Therefore moderators become a compromise of legnth, diameter, weight, looks and expense. For me, cheap and easy to obtain 95 % effeciency is O. K..
Again thanks for doing the comparison, it helps me accept the theory of diminishing returns.
Did Sto, who was working on something he termed "Diode Baffles" ever pan out to come to a final design?
His work was quite extensive and exhausting.
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Just curious, are "Diode" baffles different than "K" baffles?
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Matt
I believe his designs are for sale via a PM, because he doesn't want his extensive work to be labled as a sales pitch. (just my thoughts). Keeping the thread separate from sales.
Fuzzy
Yes, his gas diode designs are totally different from a "K" baffle, and presumably a lot more scientific. After exhaustive testing and rambling, it was tough for me to draw any simple conclusions, due to the complexity of the subject. Total volume didn't correlate to % of reduction, etc. etc. TKO, slim design scored better than some larger diameter models. Washers, hair curlers & foam ran close to some of the top names in the business.
Keep in mind that his research was about "add on moderators" and not on modifying an existing shroud. Although some of the principles should apply, I still found it hard to translate that information into something simple and usable. My biggest take away was length in front of the barrel for baffels matters, and a number of the moderators on the market are close in results.
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Matt
I believe his designs are for sale via a PM, because he doesn't want his extensive work to be labled as a sales pitch. (just my thoughts). Keeping the thread separate from sales.
Fuzzy
Yes, his gas diode designs are totally different from a "K" baffle, and presumably a lot more scientific. After exhaustive testing and rambling, it was tough for me to draw any simple conclusions, due to the complexity of the subject. Total volume didn't correlate to % of reduction, etc. etc. TKO, slim design scored better than some larger diameter models. Washers, hair curlers & foam ran close to some of the top names in the business.
Keep in mind that his research was about "add on moderators" and not on modifying an existing shroud. Although some of the principles should apply, I still found it hard to translate that information into something simple and usable.
My biggest take away was length in front of the barrel for baffels matters, and a number of the moderators on the market are close in results.
Hello Hawkeye51
Does "length in front of the barrel" refer to the space inside the a shroud in front of the barrel?
Does the idea include the length gained by adding a moderator to the barrel or shroud?
Ed
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Edward
My conclusion was yes and yes. (depending on utilization of that space) Shroud with baffles better than no baffles. Shroud with baffles & moderator on the end was even better. Give that thread a read, I would be interested in your conclusions.
My biggest suprise was that the better moderators produced a similar result, even with simple designs. For me, a cheap and effective way to quiet down the Libertys & Freedoms is to do exactly what we are doing. Modify the shroud (or not) and add baffles ( "k" style or cone). Sure, everyone wants a totally silent gun. But staying within the confines of the existing shroud, is cheap, easy and produces an acceptable result for me. Totally backyard friendly in my book, but I'm only shooting 18 gr @ about 920 fps. That will make a difference when you "jack things up a little" 😁.
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Edward
My conclusion was yes and yes. (depending on utilization of that space) Shroud with baffles better than no baffles. Shroud with baffles & moderator on the end was even better. Give that thread a read, I would be interested in your conclusions.
My biggest suprise was that the better moderators produced a similar result, even with simple designs. For me, a cheap and effective way to quiet down the Libertys & Freedoms is to do exactly what we are doing. Modify the shroud (or not) and add baffles ( "k" style or cone). Sure, everyone wants a totally silent gun. But staying within the confines of the existing shroud, is cheap, easy and produces an acceptable result for me. Totally backyard friendly in my book, but I'm only shooting 18 gr @ about 920 fps. That will make a difference when you "jack things up a little" 😁.
Thanks for the reply, Mike
I've not added baffles yet to either Freedom or Liberty.
I have played with a 5-3/8"Froggy moderator.
It makes both guns quiet enough that neighbors standing at my gate would never know about my shooting unless keen of ear & able to identify a PCP's ping.
Granted, I'm not a hot-rodder either.
In the power department the Freedom will stay stock
The Liberty will see no more than making one of Steve's hammer spring adjusters
I scrolled back to find a link to the thread you have been referencing; and did not find it.
Will you please post or PM it.
I would like to read it
However as new to PCPs as I am my conclusions might be quite rudimentary or naive
Ed
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Edward
Some guys are adding baffles (cone style, or NP2 "K" baffle). The Crosman NP2 "K" baffle is monocore & fits inside the shroud. See "any US importers carrying this gun". It's about $3.00 each with $4.00 shipping. I got 4 baffles (for 4 guns) for less than $16.00. The cones don't require any special modification. Some guys are drilling holes in the barrel support so that air can pass all the way down the shroud. Some are putting small holes in the shroud just in front of the breech.
My experience is that it does make a noticable difference. And in my opinion is backyard friendly. Not silent but noticably better. It takes the sharp bark out of the report. A moderator will do the same but adds length.
Use the search function and you will find all kinds of info. The thread about moderators is on Air Gun Nation, written by Sto. It's an interresting read if you want to learn about moderators.
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Where did you order the k- baffles from? PA what’s 599 plus 799 shipping.
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James
Order by phone directly to Crosman. Look up parts number first, google NP2 TRAIL parts diagram. Crosman shipping is a flat $4.00 unless the part is big, or long like a barrel. Prices are very reasonable. Baffle needs the last ring enlarged a little, to slip over the end of barrel. Easy to do with a hand drill. I wrap each end of baffle with a peice of tape for snug fit.
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James
Order by phone directly to Crosman. Look up parts number first, google NP2 TRAIL parts diagram. Crosman shipping is a flat $4.00 unless the part is big, or long like a barrel. Prices are very reasonable. Baffle needs the last ring enlarged a little, to slip over the end of barrel. Easy to do with a hand drill. I wrap each end of baffle with a peice of tape for snug fit.
Hey Mike,
Thanks for all of your help recently, but I am having a hard time finding the parts number for the Crosman NP2 Trail baffles. Will these also fit in the Freedom shroud?
Thanks again!
Kerry
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NP214-001
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/crosman-np214-001-trail-baffle?a=7784 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/crosman-np214-001-trail-baffle?a=7784)
We experimented with these a fair amount at the beginning of the year, this can be found in the "Any importers carry this ..." thread. There is a lot of good info there.
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NP214-001
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/crosman-np214-001-trail-baffle?a=7784 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/crosman-np214-001-trail-baffle?a=7784)
We experimented with these a fair amount at the beginning of the year, this can be found in the "Any importers carry this ..." thread. There is a lot of good info there.
Thanks Ray! I was going to try and order some of them directly from Crosman given the better price/shipping.
The "any US importers carrying this..." thread is long and although I have read it through at least once, the search function on GTA does not make it easy to find things and it does get old clicking through page after page of posts to find a specific portion of a thread. (heavy sigh)
Thanks again!
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Here you go, starts at #494. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126)
Steve came up with drilling the first ring to allow air back into the rest of the shroud.
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Here you go, starts at #494. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126)
Steve came up with drilling the first ring to allow air back into the rest of the shroud.
Thanks Ray!
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Fuzzy
Yes, his gas diode designs are totally different from a "K" baffle, and presumably a lot more scientific. After exhaustive testing and rambling, it was tough for me to draw any simple conclusions, due to the complexity of the subject. Total volume didn't correlate to % of reduction, etc. etc. TKO, slim design scored better than some larger diameter models. Washers, hair curlers & foam ran close to some of the top names in the business.
Keep in mind that his research was about "add on moderators" and not on modifying an existing shroud. Although some of the principles should apply, I still found it hard to translate that information into something simple and usable. My biggest take away was length in front of the barrel for baffels matters, and a number of the moderators on the market are close in results.
Thx, just that the symbol for a diode basically looks a "K". ;D
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Edward
Some guys are adding baffles (cone style, or NP2 "K" baffle). The Crosman NP2 "K" baffle is monocore & fits inside the shroud. See "any US importers carrying this gun". It's about $3.00 each with $4.00 shipping. I got 4 baffles (for 4 guns) for less than $16.00. The cones don't require any special modification. Some guys are drilling holes in the barrel support so that air can pass all the way down the shroud. Some are putting small holes in the shroud just in front of the breech.
My experience is that it does make a noticable difference. And in my opinion is backyard friendly. Not silent but noticably better. It takes the sharp bark out of the report. A moderator will do the same but adds length.
Use the search function and you will find all kinds of info. The thread about moderators is on Air Gun Nation, written by Sto. It's an interresting read if you want to learn about moderators.
Thank you Mike
I will head to AGN and find Sto's thread on moderators.
With a little luck I might understand it!
Regarding the baffles.
Your info certainly ensures that I will give them a try
There are other parts needed from Crosman; and the baffles will get added to the order.
Of course I'll report back with impressions
Change of subject
Rather than hijack this thread I am going to ask you a question in this one
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=163480.0
It will be part of a reply to Kerry's (Backstop) post #17.
See you there
Ed
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Thought I'd mention when I first got my Liberty I put an NP-2 baffle in it and yes it did quiet the bark, but it also affected the accuracy of my rifle so I removed it and the accuracy was back. There was no sign of clipping on the insert, just weird air flows that affected the accuracy. YMMV
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Here you go, starts at #494. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126)
Steve came up with drilling the first ring to allow air back into the rest of the shroud.
Ray, did you ever come to any conclusions about using these baffles in the Liberty/Freedom shrouds and were you able to do any testing using a decibel meter?
Thanks!
Kerry
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I've wondered if porting the FRONT of the shroud would do anything - behind the barrel crown, just forward of that front support ring.
I guess it would only act like a muzzle break, sending the sound in a different direction.
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A different baffle design may be forthcoming from another GTA member. :) If so, will test with the Liberty oem config with the vented shroud and Rod's AS. Also, will try as replacement for the Mrod baffles in the shifted forward shroud.
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Here you go, starts at #494. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126)
Steve came up with drilling the first ring to allow air back into the rest of the shroud.
Ray, did you ever come to any conclusions about using these baffles in the Liberty/Freedom shrouds and were you able to do any testing using a decibel meter?
Thanks!
Kerry
At the time I was using the NP2 baffle I was chasing accuracy issues. I eventually figured out my barrel was bad.
If I remember correctly I did do some decibel testing and it was very similar to the results of various baffle stacks. From the get go I had vented my shroud and barrel spacer, and the first ring of the core.
I "thought" it might have been affecting accuracy but as I said it was the bad barrel. There was no evidence of clipping and I was paying much more attention at the time to getting consistent accuracy so when I went to a baffle stack I never retried the core.
The long and the short is I have no evidence one way or the other, but I believe the sound reduction was comparable to other methods and I don't think I saw accuracy affected by it.
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Here you go, starts at #494. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149431.msg1549126#msg1549126)
Steve came up with drilling the first ring to allow air back into the rest of the shroud.
Ray, did you ever come to any conclusions about using these baffles in the Liberty/Freedom shrouds and were you able to do any testing using a decibel meter?
Thanks!
Kerry
At the time I was using the NP2 baffle I was chasing accuracy issues. I eventually figured out my barrel was bad.
If I remember correctly I did do some decibel testing and it was very similar to the results of various baffle stacks. From the get go I had vented my shroud and barrel spacer, and the first ring of the core.
I "thought" it might have been affecting accuracy but as I said it was the bad barrel. There was no evidence of clipping and I was paying much more attention at the time to getting consistent accuracy so when I went to a baffle stack I never retried the core.
The long and the short is I have no evidence one way or the other, but I believe the sound reduction was comparable to other methods and I don't think I saw accuracy affected by it.
I used the NP2 baffle and I can assure you 100% it creates accuracy problems, I used that baffle for a DIY moderator and while it quieted the gun the group at just 20 yard was a disaster. I would not recommend using it for the Liberty at least.
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Thats interesting, I have one in a homemade half shroud on my Crosman Summit Ranger (magnum breakbarrel) and it is shooting under half inch at 30 yds.
I will definitely try it again in my Liberty.
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My experience with the NP2's baffle has all been positive.
First of all, I did not compare POI, pre & post baffle. I installed the baffle & tuned for desired speed & pellet weight before I sighted in the gun.
Secondly, all guns were done in the same fashion, with the baffle modified to allow maximum flow back into the shroud and down to the breech, venting the shroud with 4 or 6 small holes. The barrel support was also drilled with several holes to allow maximum air passage. The barrel was wrapped with felt under the vent holes.
Third, all guns were very similar in accuracy. Half inch 5 shot groups @30 yards was the norm.
Fourth, this was done to a total of 8 guns over a one year period. Six guns were Freedom 22 and two were Liberty 22. I think there are several different ways to accomplish similar results in noise reduction, but this was cheap & easy for me.
I did like the looks of the 3-D printed air stripper and think a 3-D printed barrel support with holes already in it would be a good seller.
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Some pics.
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Yup, Thats how I did it.
It does work, it is cheap and in most cases does not affect accuracy.
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A different baffle design may be forthcoming from another GTA member. :) If so, will test with the Liberty oem config with the vented shroud and Rod's AS. Also, will try as replacement for the Mrod baffles in the shifted forward shroud.
I received the pkg today from David (Rocker1) Thank-you sir. :) He sent baffles in 20mm, 23mm, and 25mm OD's. The design is unique in that it combines a baffle/air stripper with the common hair curler/felt style. The 25mm are a little too large for the Liberty shroud, but the 23mm w/felt (scotch brite) should fit just fine. I look forward to testing them in this coming week.
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Looks good! If you can, try felt from the fabric store. Seems to have more dampening effect than scotch bright. I've even used the foam from pellet tins and works really well. Look forward to your results.
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Regarding the picture with the device in the vise, I just cut off the outside of the barrier with side cutters instead of drilling holes. Regards, Tom
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I'm pretty sure I have some black acoustic felt that is 1/8" thick. If so, I could try that after. It might block flow from the vent holes. I'm sure there are enough pellet foams around.
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Well, I ordered 5 of the Trail NP2 baffles to play with. I doubt I will use them in the shroud though.
My best results have come from an LDC added to the end of the shrouded barrel.
Yeah, it can get long, but I don't walk around in the woods with my AGs. (smile)
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Well, I ordered 5 of the Trail NP2 baffles to play with. I doubt I will use them in the shroud though.
My best results have come from an LDC added to the end of the shrouded barrel.
Yeah, it can get long, but I don't walk around in the woods with my AGs. (smile)
Well, Kelly
Between the two of us the good folks of Bloomfield NY must be wondering what's up with the baffles.
I ordered 4 on Friday.
Once in hand the intention is to compare them to Mike's (Hawkeye 51) photo to see exactly how he modified them for use in the Freedoms/Libertys
It's time for me, also, to compare results in front of the muzzle to those inside the shroud
Ed
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Well, I ordered 5 of the Trail NP2 baffles to play with. I doubt I will use them in the shroud though.
My best results have come from an LDC added to the end of the shrouded barrel.
Yeah, it can get long, but I don't walk around in the woods with my AGs. (smile)
Well, Kelly
Between the two of us the good folks of Bloomfield NY must be wondering what's up with the baffles.
I ordered 4 on Friday.
Once in hand the intention is to compare them to Mike's (Hawkeye 51) photo to see exactly how he modified them for use in the Freedoms/Libertys
It's time for me, also, to compare results in front of the muzzle to those inside the shroud
Ed
Did you use the VELOCITY-19 code? (chuckle)
I ordered 5 because I am not sure how I might modify them and I have 3 AGs on which I will eventually have some sort of LDC.
So far though, my best (to my ears) version was my first. No baffles and VERY simple "design".
Of course, that may be because of my tinnitus and high frequency hearing loss.
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[/quote]
Did you use the VELOCITY-19 code? (chuckle)
I ordered 5 because I am not sure how I might modify them and I have 3 AGs on which I will eventually have some sort of LDC.
So far though, my best (to my ears) version was my first. No baffles and VERY simple "design".
Of course, that may be because of my tinnitus and high frequency hearing loss.
[/quote]
Oh shoot! (pun intended)
Did I miss an 80 cent discount AGAIN?
Consider yourself fortunate if you are not able to clearly hear the ping
Ed
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Fighting a sinus infection today, but did get all eight of the 23mm OD baffles wrapped with the scotch brite. That should be enough even for the Mrod baffle swap out.
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The baffles are 1" long, and was able to get three in the Liberty that has Rod's AS and vented shroud. The shroud end cap is 1/4" from being fully screwed in. Good enough to test.
The Liberty that had the Mrod baffles, were removed along with the mrod shroud section. Five of Rocker1 baffles replaced 6 Mrod. The baffles are pushed down tight to the Mrod AS. This gun has the oem plastic shroud spacer, but it has not been drilled out, to allow air to the rest of the shroud. The shroud endcap was able to screw in all the way.
Ready for testing.
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The baffles are 1" long, and was able to get three in the Liberty that has Rod's AS and vented shroud. The shroud end cap is 1/4" from being fully screwed in. Good enough to test.
The Liberty that had the Mrod baffles, were removed along with the mrod shroud section. Five of Rocker1 baffles replaced 6 Mrod. The baffles are pushed down tight to the Mrod AS. This gun has the oem plastic shroud spacer, but it has not been drilled out, to allow air to the rest of the shroud. The shroud endcap was able to screw in all the way.
Ready for testing.
Looking forward to your test results!
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Still feel like sheet, but shot a mag through each gun and recorded. The three Rocker1 baffles with vented shroud was most consistent at 91db. That is the best so far with oem shroud position, by 1db.
The Mrod baffle replacement in a 22 Liberty, was also 1db quieter at a consistent 89db.
When I feel better, will try baffle config options.
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Played with the Trail baffles in my DIY LDC. It did work, but it also did make shots POI erratic. Just haven't spent enough time trying different positions with it yet.
I will have to play around with where and how I place it. It may work best when installed inside the shroud, but I have not tried modifying it and using it that way... yet.
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Played with the Trail baffles in my DIY LDC. It did work, but it also did make shots POI erratic. Just haven't spent enough time trying different positions with it yet.
I will have to play around with where and how I place it. It may work best when installed inside the shroud, but I have not tried modifying it and using it that way... yet.
This is what the Trail Np baffles look like when placed into a Freedom shroud as far as they will go without modification. I think I can work with that... (smile)
It does fit OVER the barrel end snugly, but not secure enough to leave it this way. My DIY PVC LDC will fit over it and keep it in place. Haven't tried it yet, but will see if I can test it tomorrow/today/soon. (chuckle)
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Yes! YES!
I placed my "over the shroud DIY LDC" on with the baffles in the shroud as pictured. The internals of my LDC keep the baffles in place.
YES! Much quieter! And the erratic POI behavior completely went away! Shot it enough at 10 yards indoors that when I tested zero at 25 yards outside, in the rain, it was SPOT ON!
Total cost for 3 AGs was about $20 or so. I can probably tune them a little more, but I don't think I am going to change much. The hammer is louder than the muzzle, even INDOORS!
Mouse fart quiet? I don't know... I have never heard a mouse fart.
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Dang! Hit quote when I meant to hit modify...
I was going to add that my groups may even be a little tighter than before. Maybe not... I haven't tested enough to say for sure. However, they are definitely NOT WORSE!
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How much length did the DIY LDC add to the shroud?
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How much length did the DIY LDC add to the shroud?
So far, the shortest adds 7.5 inches. I haven't played with anything shorter yet. As I always shoot from a rest and almost always indoors, it doesn't bother me.
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How much length did the DIY LDC add to the shroud?
So far, the shortest adds 7.5 inches. I haven't played with anything shorter yet. As I always shoot from a rest and almost always indoors, it doesn't bother me.
Kelly
Do you have a source for tubes & end caps, or do you make your own?
Ed
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How much length did the DIY LDC add to the shroud?
So far, the shortest adds 7.5 inches. I haven't played with anything shorter yet. As I always shoot from a rest and almost always indoors, it doesn't bother me.
Kelly
Do you have a source for tubes & end caps, or do you make your own?
Ed
I am using 1" pvc for the LDC tubes. I have to wrap the end of the shroud with thin duct tape for a snug fit. It isn't pretty, but it works for me.
For end end of the pvc, I simply use duct tape, shoot a pellet through it and then ream it a little bigger with a hot screwdriver.
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So far, the shortest adds 7.5 inches. I haven't played with anything shorter yet. As I always shoot from a rest and almost always indoors, it doesn't bother me.
[/quote]
Kelly
Do you have a source for tubes & end caps, or do you make your own?
Ed
[/quote]
I am using 1" pvc for the LDC tubes. I have to wrap the end of the shroud with thin duct tape for a snug fit. It isn't pretty, but it works for me.
For end end of the pvc, I simply use duct tape, shoot a pellet through it and then ream it a little bigger with a hot screwdriver.
[/quote]
Oh!
Essentially a baffled shroud that slips over for the rifle's shroud
That make a lot of sense, Kelly;
and offers some interesting possibilities such as varying the amount the ldc slips over your shroud & finding a way to leave the back of the LDC vented or open
Ed
Thank you
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So far, the shortest adds 7.5 inches. I haven't played with anything shorter yet. As I always shoot from a rest and almost always indoors, it doesn't bother me.
Kelly
Do you have a source for tubes & end caps, or do you make your own?
Ed
I am using 1" pvc for the LDC tubes. I have to wrap the end of the shroud with thin duct tape for a snug fit. It isn't pretty, but it works for me.
For end end of the pvc, I simply use duct tape, shoot a pellet through it and then ream it a little bigger with a hot screwdriver.
Oh!
Essentially a baffled shroud that slips over for the rifle's shroud
That make a lot of sense, Kelly;
and offers some interesting possibilities such as varying the amount the ldc slips over your shroud & finding a way to leave the back of the LDC vented or open
Ed
Thank you
The Trail NP2 baffles are in the rifle's (Freedom) shroud and the PVC LDC slips over the shroud and keeps the Trail NP2 baffle in place.
For now, I have not changed anything on the PVC LDCs I have been testing. I simply use them as is over the shroud as is.
The Trail NP2 baffles did not work well when I tried them in the PVC LDC and caused erratic POI shifts. When placed inside the shroud, they work very well!
I have not tested the Trail baffles in the shroud alone, as that would require modifying the baffles (as some have done) and I don't want to do that.
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For those who simply want to make the Freedom/Liberty a little bit quieter, I suggest modifying the Trail NP2 baffles so they will fit in the shroud at Hawkeye51 and others have done.
It will work and you should not have a problem with erratic POI. The POI will change, but it will be consistent.
It you want to get down to "mouse fart" quiet... then you MUST use an LDC. The Trail NP2 baffles (unmodified) did make a big difference for me when placed in the shroud of my Freedom and held in place by the internals of my already tested DIY 1" PVC LDC's.
The baffles in the shroud made a big difference to my ears, but I still don't have a dB meter, so I can show any empirical data.
Materials used in my DIY PVC LDC's are:
1" PVC pipe
Thin duct tape
Scotch Brite (or generic) pads (Dollar Tree)
Small Pink hair curlers (Dollar Tree)
Cup washers (baffles) from grommet replacement kit (Harbor Freight)
Wool Felt (Hobby Lobby)... only recently testing with this. Not much difference to my ears.
That is about as much as I can tell you without violating the forum rules. ;) ;D
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Does anyone have the verified diameter/thread of the shroud end cap? I'll be measuring tonight, but don't have a way to 100% confirm.
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Does anyone have the verified diameter/thread of the shroud end cap? I'll be measuring tonight, but don't have a way to 100% confirm.
M23 X 1.0?