GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Boolit and Pellet Casting => Topic started by: Franklink on June 30, 2019, 03:46:49 AM
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A while back I bought the NOE Hunter mold in .22. I believe it's designation is 217-20-RF.
Well I was able to cast up some very nice looking pellets. I used lead from my pellet traps. I'd guess it is around 97% percent JSB, with the rest being Crosman. The cast pellets are soft enough lead for me to easily collapse the skirts with my fingertips and a light squeeze.
They measured to .217 with calipers and most weigh 19.6grs. I sorted by weight and kept 19.6 and 19.7 grainers, and recast any outliers.
Accuracy stinks. Worst pellets I've ever shot. Pellets were spiraling and would sometimes completely miss a 9 x11 sheet of paper at 55 yards. Occasionally a couple would go in the same one inch group at 30 yards, but not all. Even an inch at 30 is pretty bad.
I thought, well maybe some of the other weights will work better so I cast some more with different pins. I was still able to get nice looking pellets with pretty consistent weights..... that don't shoot worth &^^& in my guns.
The guns I tried them in were a Taipan Veteran Short and a Benjamin Discovery. They were tried from 18-32 fpe with the Veteran and about 18 fpe in the Disco.
The Veteran will shoot all three weights of JSB that I have tried with supreme accuracy. I've made 140 yard shots on prairie dogs with the Veteran and JSB pellets-very accurate gun. The Disco prefers 13.43 gr JSB but will also shoot the 18.1 quite well.
Ive read about how accurate these cast pellets are for some of you guys and I'm just not seeing the same. What suggestions so you have to get good accuracy? Or do I just have two guns that happen to dislike the pellets from my NOE mold?
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I've got the hunter magnum 217-24 mould and I cast recycled pellets also. But only have 15 yards to shoot, shooting a Taipan Mutant Standard. They seem pretty accurate at that distance. So I sent some to a friend to try further distance here's some 50 yard targets. Rather surprising results.
You might want to try as pure lead as you can get. See if you get any improvement.
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The only thing I can think of at the moment that could cause these pellets not to perform well, is that the skirt pins are not centered and causing imbalance. Do the walls of the skirts measure even ?
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I haven't measured the skirts yet with my calipers. But that's my last inspection point. I twist each pellet against a piece of fine sand paper. Checking for even wall thickness and how flat they are. If the pins aren't straight in their bore the mould won't close the way it's made.
Just checked s single random pellet getting .221.
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They do look good to me also, what lead hardness ? it may or may not matter I use pure lead for bullets and a 2% tin for pellets, to get better fill in the skirts.
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They do look good to me also, what lead hardness ? it may or may not matter I use pure lead for bullets and a 2% tin for pellets, to get better fill in the skirts.
Mine dent pretty easily with fingernail. They sure don't seem hard. I'm waiting on the new 217-20 mould to come available so I can pick one up. Later I'll dump the recycled lead from my pot. and melt up some pure lead I purchased from rotometals and run a batch. I sent a e mail to Jack asking if he noticed any spiraling while shooting those targets.
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Tales like this is what gives me major pause when considering casting my own pellets.
Given the expense. time, and effort, only to find out you guns do not like them :(
Anyhow I will be watching to see if a solution is found.
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I have Mp mold for pellets too. they dont shoot well so i stopped trying. It's probably my casting skills to blam
I would wait for Wayne to chime in also. His casts are so dang nice looking. and his method is pressure bottom pour with a ladle.
I woud like to see the cast pellets from the OP also.
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I will be following also. I have the magnum mold waiting to get used.
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When I first started casting pellets for my airguns I used the same method I used for my black powder guns, the way the mini balls are for them got me started on pressure pouring. I recommend pure lead for .22's and .25's myself, they come out really nice with good sharp edges on the skirts and without any noticeable voids in them from after inspecting. I will weigh pellets that I've cast and it weeds out the bad skirts quickly, I don't get very many of them as a rule. I've never actually used a thermometer for casting either, I'll just let mold set on top of the pot when the lead is warming up along with the ladle. I'll flux the lead good with beeswax and sawdust when smelting a pot. I use a Lee single heat bullet caster that's 275watt and the capacity is about 4 lbs I'd say. If I'm going to be doing a big run I'll have pure lead on hand for adding to the pot. I keep the lead oxide down to a minimum scraping it off when it needs it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYXUWlekO3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYXUWlekO3Q)
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Here's some pics. Kinda hard to get nice pics of pellets. These are picked randomly out of the baggie from my last casting session. I see a rough meplat on one on the top row, and the bottom row, second from left looks like it's got wings but it doesn't-just a reflection.
Overall, I've shot much worse looking JSBs that were damaged, etc, and not had them spiral and act weird on their flight path the way my cast pellets are.
I understand that many are quite happy with NOE. I think it's awesome that a mold company worked with our industry to meet a need/want. I am under the impression that my results are atypical and started this post to see if someone has had the same problem, and, more importantly, found a solution.
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By the looks of them I would say they would shoot very consistent. Have you weight sorted any yet?
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Nice Video Wayne! Did you forget to use the lead though? JK!
I have never tried casting, I have enough personal issues to overcome without pouring lead on myself. I really wish I had the time to learn to cast though, I don't really shot enough at this time to make the investment worth it too.
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Yes, I weight sorted. My scale only goes to the tenth, but even that coarse of a weight sort easily found pellets with skirts that weren't quite filled out or had a tiny pocket of unfilled mold.
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Frank, Your pellets look good. It could be anything from head size to skirt size, to a choke issue. It could also be the skirt hanging over the TP a bit and getting damaged due to a deeper base.
Typically, the skirts will get expanded out to the bore size on the initial blast, particularly if using soft lead. I would take a look at these mentioned and start out with a clean barrel as well.
I would also try increasing the pot temp which will give the best fill out for increased head and skirt size. I believe you could probably get these going once the issue is identified. Pellets are much more forgiving and easier to correct verses the slug issues I'm dealing with on my NOE cast. However, I do have some NOE slugs I've cast that are doing better than some swaged slugs I have. Just got to make the barrel happy before it will let you smile.
I sort down to .30gr or less, typically. If I'm going to all this trouble of casting, might as well make them all the same to rule that out of the accuracy equation. It's nice to be able to do that as well.
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I use the gemini-20 goes down further than that but i dont sort to that extent.
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I sympathize with those of you that are having less than ideal results with your cast pellets.... As you know, any airgun will have pellets it likes and those it doesn't.... When you find a commercial pellet your gun doesn't like, you are out the cost of a tin of pellets (for each type it doesn't like)…. Unfortunately, if you are casting, you are out the cost of the mould and lead, and if you have never cast before, in addition the cost of the pot, handles and thermometer to get set up to do it.... :(
Of course if they work out for you, you can cast your pellets at a fraction of the cost of purchasing them.... and the Meplat on the NOEs really does do the smack-down on game compared to a round-nosed design that ice-picks through.... 8)
I just wished that the NOE pellets were better than anything else, for anybody, in any gun.... Of course all pellet manufacturers have that same desire for their customers.... ;)
Bob
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I guess if one only has a couple of air rifles casting may not be the answer, unless you have gotten a sample to test. If you have way too many guns then why not go full tilt into it. I am sure one could quickly sell their casting equipment here on the classifieds and get most of their investment back if things do not work out like "planned" .
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The pellets look good, but I still see incomplete fill lines at the skirt base. I have no idea to why the spirals...
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Have you slugged your barrel with your cast pellets?
I've found some issues by using this proceedure.
Pull the barrel so you can insert from the breach end.
Put in a cast pellet and push it up the barrel but STOP before the choke and carefully push it back out backwards so you see what rifling engagement there is.
Then push another pellet completely through the barrel to see what the choke is doing to the pellet.
I found one rifle that was very accurate with swaged pellets but not with cast and found the choke was the problem. That's when I tried out a friend's tapered pellet swager and sized some to fit my choke... Th cast pellets groups tightened up and shoot as good as or better than the store bought swaged.
Later in testing I tried using FinishLine bicycle chain wax lube on my cast pellets (2 or 3 drops in a Ziploc bag and 50 pellets and kneed it around, pour into the old tin and let dry) and that helped too.
An additional check is to chamber a pellet while the barrel and breach are together but the rifle is otherwise disassembled to check just where the skirt really is and make sure it is not sticking out over the TP. There is a chance (depending on the manufacturer of your gun, it's probe will seat a swaged pellet (with a different base cavity shape) different than a cast pellet. Had that happen too and ended up having the bolt modified with a .035 longer probe,, now everything clears.
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lol hunter mags clears the TP but super super tight going through the choke. Had to take off the handle on the cleaning rod and finish pushing using my weight and the deck floor. The jsb head measured .215 the hunter mag went .217. Wowser !
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lol hunter mags clears the TP but super super tight going through the choke. Had to take off the handle on the cleaning rod and finish pushing using my weight and the deck floor. The jsb head measured .215 the hunter mag went .217. Wowser !
Then I would try lowering the pot temp some to shrink the fill out.
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grabbed my air max dominator scope it. shoots them accurately at a backyard friendly 760 fps. That works for me lol.
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Good sharp edges at the bottom of the skirts make all the difference, sitting the pellet on a flat surface (skirt down) will show how well the skirt is filled out with a magnifying glass, if I have pellets with rounded skirt edges they go back in the pot, I'm blessed with good vision so I see all that stuff with my readers and optivisor that I always use for inspection.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4906/39953704443_1c946c5390_o.jpg)
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Wayne, I bow to the master with "ladle "only! That stuff looks impressive!!!
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I would still inspect the barrels... some of the disco .22 barrels were on the large size I have one that is ~.218... also if the leade has a sharp edge that will make them pellet picky depending on how bad it cuts fins in the pellets skirt...then some times there is a burr at the transfer port that needs knocked down...
on the mutant is it the CZ barrel... might want to check the crown I saw a few complaints a while ago... and on a tight barrel might help to experiment with some different lubes... the CZ barrel could maybe use lapping/fire lapping..?
I have had barrels that shoot great with a couple pellets that had problems that when fixed really helped other pellets do well...
My Mrod .25 hated benji domes... now that it has a leade and not just hard sharp edged rifling... they tie for 2nd just behind the JSB Kings...
but yep slug and inspect barrels to remove those as reasons... but yep some just may not like a certain pellet no matter what you do...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLDhUyDx-8M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLDhUyDx-8M)
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Kirby, I recall OP doesn't have a problem with JSBs. So it's not a barrel problem
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no bud it just means the barrel does not have a prob with the JSB...thinner more collapsible skirts...
My Mrod .25 does .5" at 50 a lot with King 25.4g on a still day... but the sharp edged rifling cut into the skirt with Benji 27.8g producing fins and unequally at that... Benjis were about 2.25 moa...I took a tapered chefs steel to the barrel and now the barrel is almost perfect for the 40g BBT... almost... it is great with Benjis now about .7" ish...
still had a bit of lip that would catch on drive band of the 40g BBT and that caused the short round to cock very slightly in the barrel once or twice in ten shots... could feel it every time it happened... causes fliers out to about .1.25 when they load right they are about .75 when sized to .2495 and .250...
I think I got that last tiny bit of lip when I finished with 800 grit wet/dry and a shaped dowel last time I had it apart... but have been to busy to cast some more up to test... Have a pic of the barrel pre work posted somewhere...will post a link when I find it...
My Stormrider .177 liked JSB 10.3 and Sniper Mags only... post work it likes the CPUM and Copper Mags also and some others do well...and it did not need as much work due to less rifling height and rim...
post #2 has some pics...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=151471.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=151471.0)
point is it still can like some pellets tho it needs work... it may not be the prob but is worth taking a look...
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Mrod .25 Breech end barrel pics post # 15... Pre leade work....It did well with Cudas and FTT this way also but just did not like the Benji pellets...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121437.msg1184497#msg1184497 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121437.msg1184497#msg1184497)
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Oh forgot the 34g Magnum Hunters are about .75" at 45 ish yards out of my 50 ish fpe .25 Mrod that has the leade work... not quite as well in the other untouched Mrod at about 45 fpe... pins for the skirt are fiddly to get perfect but need to be... have the mold in 2 cavity and Brass...feel that is best for consistent results...
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I've found that once I've tweaked the pin holders right it then makes disassembly/reassembly adjustment very easy. When I tighten down the pins I'll do it in a manner where distances on either side of the screw are equal when it's tight. Most often the pin holder will move a little when tightening down and a person can judge by watching where it'll be tight.
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I had terrible accuracy with the NOE .25 Mag pellets. This was the 1-14 twist evaniz barrel. I removed the choke and it improved, but not by much.
I later installed a 1-18 barrel with 10 grooves and lands, and no choke. It shoots them very well.
I an quite happy that I can now use the pellets as intended.
Kirby, is correct, the lede is very important, as is remaining any burr in the transfer port. Any nick in the head or skirt will play "L" with accuracy!
Knife
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Sine some guns like the cast pellets, and some don't, I would like to see us set up a system to send our cast to people wanting to test in their guns, without the very real risk to their wallet being chanced on a pellet/barrel combo what won't work.
I have found happiness with the .25's, and now want to try the .22's in the light version. Both in my Maximus, and the SA700 that should be arriving in time for my B'day. I refuse to pay high prices fo rpoellets an shiping! GRRRR!!
Being disabled, and on a fixed income is well, Double Grrrr!!!
Makes pellets, especially the .25 JSB's a hardship. The cast while recovering the lead is a real boon for me. But leary of risking the moneys on a .22 mold.
No doubt, many are in the same boat. I have sent many bullets and pellets to members. Some worked for them. Some not. Which I guess is the entire point!
Knife/Mike
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I haven't tried the Magnum hunters in my latest .25 but the Hunters shoot really great from it. I plan on upping the power on this gun in the near future and I'll try the heavy ones in that. It's a Xisico Sentry which I found out is actually a prototype for the new ones coming out in August or September and don't mark my word but I think they'll be a side lever action. I also found out there's only 20 like mine here in the US. I have been offered a bargain price on them when they come in and I'll probably order one of the .22's. As far as I know they might not even call them a Sentry.
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Sine some guns like the cast pellets, and some don't, I would like to see us set up a system to send our cast to people wanting to test in their guns, without the very real risk to their wallet being chanced on a pellet/barrel combo what won't work.
I have found happiness with the .25's, and now want to try the .22's in the light version. Both in my Maximus, and the SA700 that should be arriving in time for my B'day. I refuse to pay high prices fo rpoellets an shiping! GRRRR!!
Being disabled, and on a fixed income is well, Double Grrrr!!!
Makes pellets, especially the .25 JSB's a hardship. The cast while recovering the lead is a real boon for me. But leary of risking the moneys on a .22 mold.
No doubt, many are in the same boat. I have sent many bullets and pellets to members. Some worked for them. Some not. Which I guess is the entire point!
Knife/Mike
I'm hoping the 217 wadcutter mold comes out soon, my .22 Hunters&Magnum Hunters I like a lot but shooting my .22 pistols (especially the vintage stuff) would more than likely thrive on them.
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Sine some guns like the cast pellets, and some don't, I would like to see us set up a system to send our cast to people wanting to test in their guns, without the very real risk to their wallet being chanced on a pellet/barrel combo what won't work.
I have found happiness with the .25's, and now want to try the .22's in the light version. Both in my Maximus, and the SA700 that should be arriving in time for my B'day. I refuse to pay high prices fo rpoellets an shiping! GRRRR!!
Being disabled, and on a fixed income is well, Double Grrrr!!!
Makes pellets, especially the .25 JSB's a hardship. The cast while recovering the lead is a real boon for me. But leary of risking the moneys on a .22 mold.
No doubt, many are in the same boat. I have sent many bullets and pellets to members. Some worked for them. Some not. Which I guess is the entire point!
Knife/Mike
Once I get around to it I'll be casting magnums likly 23g in .22. First few hundred will likly not so good but I may be able to send some out when I get good at casting.
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Sine some guns like the cast pellets, and some don't, I would like to see us set up a system to send our cast to people wanting to test in their guns, without the very real risk to their wallet being chanced on a pellet/barrel combo what won't work.
I have found happiness with the .25's, and now want to try the .22's in the light version. Both in my Maximus, and the SA700 that should be arriving in time for my B'day. I refuse to pay high prices fo rpoellets an shiping! GRRRR!!
Being disabled, and on a fixed income is well, Double Grrrr!!!
Makes pellets, especially the .25 JSB's a hardship. The cast while recovering the lead is a real boon for me. But leary of risking the moneys on a .22 mold.
No doubt, many are in the same boat. I have sent many bullets and pellets to members. Some worked for them. Some not. Which I guess is the entire point!
Knife/Mike
I'm definitely in about the same boat thou I'm not disabled but on a low fixed income. I love to try some cast pellets just see what they will do. I've been trying to save my lead from my trap as that's seems to be where I do most of my shooting. Don't really hunt except if I see a ground squirrel on my property I will try to kill it but that's it. I have a lot of rabbits around but I leave them alone and LOTS of ravens but they're protected. I can't shoot the sparrows as the wife loves them lol. Just want to target shoot and maybe some silhouette shooting.
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Sine some guns like the cast pellets, and some don't, I would like to see us set up a system to send our cast to people wanting to test in their guns, without the very real risk to their wallet being chanced on a pellet/barrel combo what won't work.
I have found happiness with the .25's, and now want to try the .22's in the light version. Both in my Maximus, and the SA700 that should be arriving in time for my B'day. I refuse to pay high prices fo rpoellets an shiping! GRRRR!!
Being disabled, and on a fixed income is well, Double Grrrr!!!
Makes pellets, especially the .25 JSB's a hardship. The cast while recovering the lead is a real boon for me. But leary of risking the moneys on a .22 mold.
No doubt, many are in the same boat. I have sent many bullets and pellets to members. Some worked for them. Some not. Which I guess is the entire point!
Knife/Mike
I'm hoping the 217 wadcutter mold comes out soon, my .22 Hunters&Magnum Hunters I like a lot but shooting my .22 pistols (especially the vintage stuff) would more than likely thrive on them.
I'll just about bet the Smith and Wesson 79G co-2 pistol I am using now would like wad cutters as well,
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Last night I cast up some 217-20 they run from 19.4-19.9 & 20.0- 20.9 separated them into bottles. This morning I grabbed the 19.4 - 19.9 bottle. Loaded up the mutant mags 2-5 shot groups @15yds 2 different fps.
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Odd that the higher fps seems to have grouped better!
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Yeah I probably should have turn it up to begin with lol. It shoots crosman hp at 760 at that setting.
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I pushed some of my cast pellets through a spare LW.
Here's what they look like.
The NOEs are much harder to push through the blank than the JSB, very tight at the choke.
The NOEs also seem to have a much larger bearing surface on the pellet head than the JSB.
I crushed a skirt of a JSB and a NOE to see if my cast pellets are harder. They felt pretty close. Also tried the how hard is it to make a dent with a fingernail test, also seemed pretty similar.
I'd almost hazard a guess that the NOE are a bigger head size.
Haven't tried to shoot any through this particular barrel, just curious what the push through test might show.
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Frank, I have a pellet head gauge. If you want send me a couple of each and I will check them. Accurate down to .01mm ;)
Pm me and I will give you my address.
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I get .217 on the heads of my hunter magnum an .215 on the jsb heads.
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I can measure pretty much any of my NOE castings with pure lead and they all measure the same dimensions that Bob intended them to with pure lead.
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Invest in a tapered pellet sizing die?
A friend has one and it has taken off size pellets (name brand that should never passed QC or left the factory) that did not shoot well in a particular airgun and after he found how much sizing that gun liked it tightened up it's groups a lot.
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i have the hatsan bullboss in .25 and have the NOE mould for the pellets they not to bad i was shooting eggs at 50 yards monday, the heaviest pin likes to spiral, but then again im still breaking in the gun less than 500 rounds probalby closer to 300 lol. i have killed some tree rats with them
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Invest in a tapered pellet sizing die?
A friend has one and it has taken off size pellets (name brand that should never passed QC or left the factory) that did not shoot well in a particular airgun and after he found how much sizing that gun liked it tightened up it's groups a lot.
I'd invest in one of the tapered pellet sizing die. If I knew where to get one lol.
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Look into the dies noe sells.
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Look into the dies noe sells.
I have been looking, but from what I read is that if you get a sizing die setup with a .215 bushing and resize the 217-20 pellet it would resize the head and skirt also. At least that what I believe it would do. But I'm all totally new to this and I might not understand how every thing works lol. Now if the taper die just resizes the head and leaves the skirt the same size it would be gold
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When the blast of air hits the pellet the skirt expands and fills the voids.
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When the blast of air hits the pellet the skirt expands and fills the voids.
True for thinner skinned commercial pellets but I'm doubtful on the thicker skirted cast pellets.
NOE does not sell a tapered die but a couple of other makers do.
Does anyone have the addresses?
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I purchased one of these from T.R. Robb, in the UK, a year ago and works great.