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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Boolit and Pellet Casting => Topic started by: miksatx on May 27, 2019, 06:51:41 PM

Title: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on May 27, 2019, 06:51:41 PM
Learned I got the wrong pot ( Lee small bottom pour) can't hardly get the little dipper in to scoop. way to much slag. But learned plenty. Had every thing on garage floor lol. 1-23.2, 2-23.1, 4-23, 1-22.9, 1-22.8.
.217 mold. My first attempt to cast any thing.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Wayne52 on May 27, 2019, 07:47:24 PM
Michael those look pretty darned good to me, I've got both the Hunter and the Magnum hunters in .217 and they're both fantastic molds.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on May 27, 2019, 08:29:15 PM
Thanks Wayne made mostly from a bunch of old crosman pellets lol.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: EdinGa on May 27, 2019, 08:56:16 PM
They look great to me! I've got a 4 lb pot and I use a Lyman bottom pour lead dipper. It's been a good combination for me.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Back_Roads on May 27, 2019, 09:42:21 PM
 Looking good there wait until you shoot them  ;)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: K.O. on May 27, 2019, 10:30:22 PM
They look great to me! I've got a 4 lb pot and I use a Lyman bottom pour lead dipper. It's been a good combination for me.

I have same and a couple thermometers...  and a hot plate with a little mold oven with bbq thermometer on it... did not use it for my last pour tho just heated mold up on side of the pot. I went with brass for my 250-34 pellet mold...

Have fun... you have picked the most challenging round to start with... The Skirts need to be near perfect...the pins are not hard to set but need to be just right...

My first batch did well but not spectacular out of my stock .25 Mrods... think will try pure lead for them next did a 1.5 tin mix at 780* this pour...

Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: K.O. on May 27, 2019, 10:31:42 PM
and Looking good...
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on May 27, 2019, 11:16:17 PM
Thanks EDinGA I will be following you and K.O. lead. I already ordered the 4lb pot and the bottom fill dipper. I did buy a thermometer but it doesn't seem to be working.
Back_Roads thanks, going to have to turn my mutant up some to make these boys fly lol.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: maraudinglizard on May 28, 2019, 12:19:36 AM
Looking good, practice makes perfect. Casting small pellets takes time, patience, and the right temperature. thermometers are not that expensive to buy, it just depends on your preference.

https://www.titanreloading.com/%20Lyman-Digital-Lead-Thermometer?search=thermometer (https://www.titanreloading.com/%20Lyman-Digital-Lead-Thermometer?search=thermometer)

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=563_22 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=563_22)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on May 28, 2019, 09:23:13 AM
Thanks for the links maraudinglizard. The first link is the one I have that isn't working. So I went with the One from NOE.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on May 28, 2019, 11:08:58 AM
You will probably need something else to calibrate that NOE thermometer.  On the I have, the dial spins very easily and got out of calibration before I could even use it.  I finally got it calibrated using a PID controller, then put a lot of superglue on the back of the spinning dial piece to lock it down.  I would not recommend that thermometer.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on May 28, 2019, 11:28:25 AM
You will probably need something else to calibrate that NOE thermometer.  On the I have, the dial spins very easily and got out of calibration before I could even use it.  I finally got it calibrated using a PID controller, then put a lot of superglue on the back of the spinning dial piece to lock it down.  I would not recommend that thermometer.
Thanks for the heads up triggertreat. Curious did you try returning it or notify NOE of the problem?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: sgtbunny on May 29, 2019, 03:23:21 PM
Following as I want to start casting when I get my new gun.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 01, 2019, 10:31:59 PM
Found a good use for my bottom pour Lee melter. Scooped up bunch up shot pellets and recovered 2lb 6oz of lead. Dug out my ingot mold I use for pouring silver scrap from jewelry I make. Worked great!
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: KnifeMaker on June 02, 2019, 09:10:03 AM
If I were you, I would try pressure casting using the bottom pour. It works and works well with the added bonus of being much faster than any scoop/dipper, while keeping the oxides of  metals on top of the melt.  Exactly where a dipper gets its fill.


to pressure fill with the bottom  pour, press the nozzle into the spru hole, lift pot handle for one half second and pull it away and allow it to pour a bit more in order let it form a puddle. You want a puddle to keep heat in the spru plate.   


It will take a little practice as too much pressure will form nasty whiskers by filling the air vents. LOL :-[


Dial the pressure down bit and go again.


It Ain't Rocket Science. It's "Bullet Science".  ;) 8) ;D


Knife
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 02, 2019, 09:51:50 AM
Good morning KnifeMaker thanks for the info. I will have to make some thing to get the mold higher so that the spru plate is lot closer.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Back_Roads on June 02, 2019, 10:12:05 AM
 I use the sinking boat method to fill my bottom pour ladle, turn it so the sprue nozzle is aiming down into the pot and let it fill through the little hole.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 02, 2019, 11:05:39 AM
I use the sinking boat method to fill my bottom pour ladle, turn it so the sprue nozzle is aiming down into the pot and let it fill through the little hole.
Thanks Back_Roads more great info. Just got to love this place.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: EdinGa on June 02, 2019, 11:28:12 AM
I use the sinking boat method to fill my bottom pour ladle, turn it so the sprue nozzle is aiming down into the pot and let it fill through the little hole.

That's a great idea. I'm going to try that with my bottom pour ladle. I've had pretty good results just dipping it, but I'm always looking for ways to get closer to perfection.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 02, 2019, 11:45:49 AM
Sorting pellets lol.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on June 02, 2019, 04:34:44 PM
You will probably need something else to calibrate that NOE thermometer.  On the I have, the dial spins very easily and got out of calibration before I could even use it.  I finally got it calibrated using a PID controller, then put a lot of superglue on the back of the spinning dial piece to lock it down.  I would not recommend that thermometer.
Thanks for the heads up triggertreat. Curious did you try returning it or notify NOE of the problem?



No, I built a DIY PID controller instead, which I use to control the pot temp automatically and to calibrate the NOE thermometer before gluing the two parts in place so it doesn't turn with the slightest touch.


(https://i.ibb.co/BqJXBz1/PID-build-03.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/RhjrmXY/PID-build-02.jpg)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 16, 2019, 11:58:05 AM
So my bottom pour stopped pouring. I figured I'd clean it up and see if I could get it working. Ended up making it worse it seems. Had it all back together melted bout 4 lbs was flowing great. Pulled the plug figured I'd get a fresh start in the morning. Next morning disaster awaited me 4 lbs lead every where but in the pot.
Now I can't get it to stop leaking. Did buy a cast vintage cast iron melting pots I can at least catch the leaking lead. So I'm open to any suggestions.
Oh nice setup triggertreat!
It's latest creation!
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 16, 2019, 09:14:04 PM
Fixed! So when I got this unit the pin that fits in the bottom was bent. Figured it was supposed to be. So I pulled it stuck it in a vice and straighten it out. Chucked it up in the lathe polished it. Put it back together no leaks.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: KnifeMaker on June 17, 2019, 04:46:18 AM
Mike, there is good reason why they are called the Drip-o-matic. They are famous for it.


I turned mine on ione morning, went to walk the dog while it came to heat. I returned to find my work bench covered with 20 lbs of lead. Double GRRRRR!!!


I ordered the RCBS Pro Melt the same week. Never any issues again. Nearly two years later, no issue of any kind. Steadier heat, easier to use.


Sadly, RCBS no longer carries their well loved unit. The new on is no longer made by them, but a much more cheaply made Chinese made unit. It does have a built in pid, but poor quality over all compared to the Original Pro Melt.


Mike/Knife
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: BackStop on June 17, 2019, 04:57:42 AM
Mike, there is good reason why they are called the Drip-o-matic. They are famous for it.


I turned mine on ione morning, went to walk the dog while it came to heat. I returned to find my work bench covered with 20 lbs of lead. Double GRRRRR!!!


I ordered the RCBS Pro Melt the same week. Never any issues again. Nearly two years later, no issue of any kind. Steadier heat, easier to use.


Sadly, RCBS no longer carries their well loved unit. The new on is no longer made by them, but a much more cheaply made Chinese made unit. It does have a built in pid, but poor quality over all compared to the Original Pro Melt.


Mike/Knife
Never had that much of a drip, but I never leave my Lee hot (10 pound model, used and not in good shape) pot alone when on.

However, the "drip-o-matic" moniker is absolutely correct.  I have only poured fishing jigs (1/16 oz mostly) and no matter how you take care of one, it WILL leak.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on June 17, 2019, 10:52:33 AM
Fixed! So when I got this unit the pin that fits in the bottom was bent. Figured it was supposed to be. So I pulled it stuck it in a vice and straighten it out. Chucked it up in the lathe polished it. Put it back together no leaks.



Cool!  I was wondering why you were having so much drip.  My 20lb doesn't drip very much at all, and is typically only right when the pot temp is right at the beginning of the lead melting point.  I may get a thimble sized drip amount, but then I wiggle the rod and it stops right away.  Glad you got it figured out.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 19, 2019, 02:17:59 PM
Tried casting today total fail out of 200 pellets 2 were fully formed. My guess I'm not getting my mould hot enough. Not getting the pellet skirt formed. Lead was 800 degrees.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Hobbyman2007 on June 20, 2019, 08:15:02 PM
Tried casting today total fail out of 200 pellets 2 were fully formed. My guess I'm not getting my mould hot enough. Not getting the pellet skirt formed. Lead was 800 degrees.


Do you know how much tin you have in the mix or are you using 100% lead ?  You’re probably right with the mold temp not being hot enough . My first couple thousand cast were not that great but found that adding a bit of tin really helped with fill out as I leaned about timing and got into the grove . I’d say about 3% would be about max . Keep at it , it will eventually all come together . You might want to try Wayne’s pressure poor method . He’s getting awesome results .
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 20, 2019, 10:19:24 PM
Do you know how much tin you have in the mix or are you using 100% lead ?  You’re probably right with the mold temp not being hot enough . My first couple thousand cast were not that great but found that adding a bit of tin really helped with fill out as I leaned about timing and got into the grove . I’d say about 3% would be about max . Keep at it , it will eventually all come together . You might want to try Wayne’s pressure poor method . He’s getting awesome results .
All the lead I'm using is recycled pellets I've picked up out back. So no idea how much tin maybe in them.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 24, 2019, 12:56:28 PM
Modified the spout on my bottom pour. Getting about 50 good to 50 bad pellets per run. Getting my mould hotter so that seem to have helped.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on June 24, 2019, 01:01:26 PM
Michael, Are you dumping the slugs into the water to cool them off and make them harder?  I wouldn't have any water next to my pot.  That's asking for trouble if any splashes in the hot pot. :'(
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 24, 2019, 02:19:27 PM
Michael, Are you dumping the slugs into the water to cool them off and make them harder?  I wouldn't have any water next to my pot.  That's asking for trouble if any splashes in the hot pot. :'(
I do drop them in water but the water is sitting on the floor when casting. It just sitting on the bench when I'm not working so I don't kick it walking by. I'm very aware of the reaction of water in molten lead believe me!
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on June 24, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
Michael, Are you dumping the slugs into the water to cool them off and make them harder?  I wouldn't have any water next to my pot.  That's asking for trouble if any splashes in the hot pot. :'(
I do drop them in water but the water is sitting on the floor when casting. It just sitting on the bench when I'm not working so I don't kick it walking by. I'm very aware of the reaction of water in molten lead believe me!



I hear you!  My brother was telling me recently how he had an explosion of sorts when just his sweat dropped in the pot (at least he thinks that's what happened).  He said the molten lead went all the way up to the ceiling.


I do try to be very careful myself.  I learned to even place my dipper on top for a spell before dipping.  I've got a reaction not doing that in the past.  The hot lead no like no water at all.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on June 24, 2019, 09:33:23 PM
Lots of centerfire powder burner bullet casters drop their cast bullets into water TO HARDEN THEM. (And it limits damage from bullets striking and denting each other) I don't know of ANYBODY safety conscious doing water drop that has the water close to the pot. Usually it's a pot or bucket a good body swing away (45 degrees) or on the floor besides your legs so no splash ever reaches the molten lead. And lots of people use a slit towel over the top of the bucket so the bullet hits the cone of cloth and rolls down into the slit. Any splash hits the underside of the towel.

But generally we air gunners do not want hard bullets because they are harder to chamber but mostly because most shooters find harder bullets are less accurate.
So water drop / quench is NOT usually a good idea.
Put 4 or 5 layers of old towel down and drop atop that, not on top of other bullets.  Or a cake pan with an inch of sand with a towel on the surface cushions the dropping bullets and keeps them clean where they can cool off slowly. I use a 10x16 square cake pan and every so often lift one side of the towel to roll the cast bullets to a pile at the other end.

Note that pellets are not always pure lead, some brands can have hardening agents, I have found melting down reclaimed pellets and testing the resulting ingots and them hitting Brinell hardness of 12 or 13.  Why would it work for pellets being hard? Because pelets interact very different than slugs do in the bore. It's apples and oranges. Don't assume all pellets are pure lead.

Secrets to good casting
1. Clean OIL FREE molds (key to getting good fill out)
2. Clean / fluxed alloy
3. Temperature appropriate to the type of mold material, style of bullet, volume of cavities... any one of these and/or a combination can change the best temp up or down. (another key to good fill out)
4. Pour technique through the spru plate into the cavity which keeps mold temp in proper range for getting good fill out and reduce internal void bubbles
5. Head pressure and shrinkage reservoir puddle of lead on top of the spru plate to push more lead into the cavity and continue to feed the core as the bullet solidifies from the outside in.

NOTE: Yes, tin helps fill out but above 750 F that property rapidly starts decreasing. And at higher temps above 750 the tin oxidizes much faster, reducing the percent. Countering that is that higher temps make more fluid alloy so it balances the loss of tin's properties.
If you are going to use an open pot and dipper you must flux the tin back in frequently.  With a bottom pour pot you can clean/flux and then cap the melt to protect it from oxigen by using something like borax or sawdust.
Further, lots of tin oxide mixes in with the molten lead and can adversely affect fill out.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Wayne52 on June 24, 2019, 09:56:04 PM
I never have used water for muzzle loaders or pellets myself, I have my pellets drop in a soft pair of shoehorns that came with my last pair of tennis shoes, no dents to speak of and very soft like I want them.

                                                  (https://live.staticflickr.com/7871/40631437883_547ef5b6b2_o.jpg)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on June 25, 2019, 11:24:23 AM
Not trying to make them harder. this morning run 86 good 52 failed my inspection.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Airgunhunter73 on June 25, 2019, 05:11:56 PM
I use a cake pan with a dish towel in it I then spray the towel with a water bottle with a slit in the top to dampen the towel works great for me, a friend of mine used to use a paint roller pan with a piece of carpet for a liner he used that for ever.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 03, 2019, 12:15:01 PM
This mornings run.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: KnifeMaker on July 04, 2019, 05:42:10 AM
I use a magnetic 4x9" Snap 0n tool tray in front of the pots tray and dump the bullets in it, with a chefs 3 tall tray with the RCBS Pot in it, and all sprues go in it. 


the lead cannot harden when dropping into water unless it has antimony, or a few other types of alloy in it. Pure Lead with no tin or with tin is unaffected.


Lead with Antimony also can age harden.


Yes, tin added, no more than 20-1 can greatly increase the fill out an give much cleaner bullets. Staves off oxidation on the pellet/bullets as well.


A drop of sweat cannot cause a melt to explode, unless it is some how introduced under the surface where it will be converted to steam. Which will expand to over 1000 percent (seems much more, can't remember the number), of its volume instantly, hence the explosion.


Water is much less dense than lead. It will not simply drop under the surface on its own. Most explosions are caused by either moisture being present in pores in the lead being introduced. or a dipper that has surface moisture on it. Simply being a humid day is enough. Alway allow anything being introduced into the pot to come to heat before putting it into the pot. Having borax or some types of flux on the stir spoon  in notorious for causing issues. As the Borax attracts and holds moisture.


Sweat dripping into a pot, unless stirred under or dripping into the pot whole introducing new lead, cannot slip under the surface. It will only instantly vapor off the surface.


tp prove this to yourself, back well off of the pot, and use a simple spray bottle and squirt a small amount on the melt. Watch what "Doesn't" happen. there will be a slight cloud of steam come off the lead. That is all.


always wear proper eye protection and gloves, Aporn while smelting and casting.
Enjoy!!! 8)

Happy July 4th people. Almost 4 AM so heading out to cast. Best time as Central texas is way too hot during the day for casting. LOL

Knife


   
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 04, 2019, 03:05:52 PM
Yesterday after I got done casting that last batch was recycled pellets had 290 failed 260 good. I poured off what recycled lead. Melted 4 lbs from rotometals pure lead. Bout a hr ago I run a batch of 160 and got 133 good and 27 failed. No doubt pure much better casting then the recycled pellets. Feels great!
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on July 04, 2019, 09:05:15 PM
Since I had such bad luck casting recycled 'store bought' pellets I started trying to use a couple oz of pellets (that's like one tablespoon) in every 10 pounds of Rotometals 'known' lead. Not enough blended in to ruin the alloy but eventually they will all get used up, haha.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: KnifeMaker on July 05, 2019, 04:50:03 AM
Me too!


I am aware however, that some brands, such as crosman have far too much antimony in them, which can lead to age hardening of your cast.  ;)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Wayne52 on July 05, 2019, 04:59:22 AM
I've got quite a bit of lead that I could use for casting but it's flat out too hard and I have no idea just how hard and how it would cast.  Personally if I had a pot full of bad lead it would be dumped immediately for some good pure lead.  I've only probably got 20lbs of pure lead right now so it's probably time to make another order from Rotometals soon.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Back_Roads on July 05, 2019, 10:42:50 AM
 I blend my air range lead with pure when doing big bore 9mm and .50 cal. casting. pellet casting is too finicky to mess with unknown alloys.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 05, 2019, 11:50:10 AM
Ok so yesterday evening I decided to cast up a batch. Right off my bottom pour went to a bottom drip. Not the kind of drip after you let off the pour handle. So I just shut down every thing. This morning I turned every thing back on checked the temp 850+. Sit my cast iron bucket under the pour nozzle. And sure nuff all I get is drip drip drip with the handle  up and wide open. So has any you experienced guys had this problem before?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Back_Roads on July 05, 2019, 12:08:06 PM
If a lee bottom pour, I had that issue when I first got mine, and I was casting with what was probably dirty lead,I kept a larger flat blade screwdriver handy, and would give the screw on top of the valve a twist or 2 and it would seal. I later did a total dump of that batch of lead by wearing heat proof gloves and dumping the remaining pot into a ingot mold.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Hobbyman2007 on July 05, 2019, 01:20:33 PM
Lots of stirring and flux will keep the melt clean . I use saw dust for fluxing either elm or maple , extremely dry that I have dried out in the oven for an hour or so on a cooking sheet at about 150F.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 05, 2019, 07:22:57 PM
Lots of stirring and flux will keep the melt clean . I use saw dust for fluxing either elm or maple , extremely dry that I have dried out in the oven for an hour or so on a cooking sheet at about 150F.
Hi Hobbyman2007 how much do you add at a time?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: KnifeMaker on July 05, 2019, 07:37:24 PM
Sawdust is wonderful. In everything such as smelting, and ladle pouring. Not for a bottom pore however. it will go fine for a while, but the charcoal will eventually find its way to the spout and the entire pot has to be emptied and cleaned. over and over again!


Wax for mixing he tin back in, borax for getting impurities out of a bottom pore pot.


go to Castboolits.com and read-read-read. You have to be able to learn enough to separate old wives tails in casting from fact however.




The Lyman casting manual is excellent for beginners and seasoned casters as well. 


For instance, there was talk about a given thermometer not being accurate, and needing to be set with a pid. Not! Pure lead, or lead with just a touch of tin in it will melt, and then go stagnant for a few minutes during the change. this happens at 625 degrees. It is all you need to know to set or record the temp on your. Temp gauge. If it is off by 25 degrees,it will be off the sme at higher temps. Easy enough to know where the melt is.


some simply mark the melt start with a sharpie, then add the difference, or subtract, from the temp desired from that info. Easy/Peasy.
These are the type of things a beginner would have no way of knowing, and just the reason of reading as much as possible.  ;)


Knife   
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: 35 shooter on July 05, 2019, 10:52:14 PM
Ok so yesterday evening I decided to cast up a batch. Right off my bottom pour went to a bottom drip. Not the kind of drip after you let off the pour handle. So I just shut down every thing. This morning I turned every thing back on checked the temp 850+. Sit my cast iron bucket under the pour nozzle. And sure nuff all I get is drip drip drip with the handle  up and wide open. So has any you experienced guys had this problem before?
I’ve had mine do that from time to time... usually it’s a bit of dirt or trash that eventually finds it’s way into the pour spout despite my continual stirring and fluxing.

A pin or small needle held with a pair of pliers stuck into the hole at the bottom of the pour spout and run in and out of the hole usually frees it up.
I just run the needle into the bottom of the spout from the underside... best to wear some good leather gloves while doing so though.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: KnifeMaker on July 06, 2019, 01:22:35 AM
Yep. I use a very small drill bit. However, anything bad enough to get into the spout, is also contaminating your bullets. Carbon from sawdust will remain in the mix seemingly forever!


Nothing in the melt i a bottom pour should be dirty enough to require sawdust. If it does, it was not smelted properly. Do it again!


Just never smelt in a bottom pour pot. Which is exactly what introducing sawdust into is doing.  ;)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 06, 2019, 06:31:38 AM
Thanks 35 shooter and KnifeMaker for the advice. I'll dig out a couple safety pins and my gloves.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Hobbyman2007 on July 06, 2019, 07:33:10 AM
Been fluxing with about a tablespoon of sawdust per 5 lbs of lead . I use a bottom poor but haven’t really had issues with charcoal , but I do stir and remove it from the top of the melt quite frequently . Almost obsessively.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: BackStop on July 07, 2019, 01:47:38 PM
Yep. I use a very small drill bit. However, anything bad enough to get into the spout, is also contaminating your bullets. Carbon from sawdust will remain in the mix seemingly forever!


Nothing in the melt i a bottom pour should be dirty enough to require sawdust. If it does, it was not smelted properly. Do it again!


Just never smelt in a bottom pour pot. Which is exactly what introducing sawdust into is doing.  ;)

How does charcoal make it to the bottom of a pot full of hot lead?   Even steel floats on top.

Not doubting you Knife, but I have always wondered how draff, which is lighter than lead, makes it to the bottom of a pot of hot lead.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: BackStop on July 07, 2019, 01:49:28 PM
Yep. I use a very small drill bit. However, anything bad enough to get into the spout, is also contaminating your bullets. Carbon from sawdust will remain in the mix seemingly forever!


Nothing in the melt i a bottom pour should be dirty enough to require sawdust. If it does, it was not smelted properly. Do it again!


Just never smelt in a bottom pour pot. Which is exactly what introducing sawdust into is doing.  ;)

BTW, I agree that you should ALWAYS "smelt" or purify lead in something OTHER than a bottom pour production pot.   Always have and always will!
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: rintafile on July 08, 2019, 01:20:48 AM
That oxidation looks like sand when melted and any dirt raise up on surface, sinks on bottom and sticks to pots walls. And it will separate time to time. And when you stirr...
 Funny how it always finds it way to spout if you cast bottom pour pot. Thats the way. So many times been curse it even i have fluxed my lead in sepate. Not in pot. 10 liter kettle and with gas. And been putting a lot of sawdust with lead and let it be for 4-5 hours.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 08, 2019, 10:04:05 AM
Run a small batch last night. Only three bad pellets out of the batch.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Hobbyman2007 on July 08, 2019, 04:42:58 PM
Good to see things are shaping up for you Michael. Now that you have the hardest casting out of the way anything else should be a breeze . Hope they fly straight for you .
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: KnifeMaker on July 09, 2019, 09:45:19 AM
I was going to answer Kerry's question but Teemu beat me toi it. It ends up with other swarf and sticks to the sides of the pot. As the swarf contains lead, it can sink, and yes, find its way to the bottom as well as sticking to the sides.


Once you start actually smelting you will see this often for yourself. No need for explanations then.  ;) 

I am not interested in researching and doing the math to find how that is possible. There is far too much of that going on in other threads here on the forum aplenty. Kinda the old "Armchair Warrior" kind of thing!

Once an otherwise stable pot starts leaking from the spout, you'll find the swarf. It's there. GRRRRRR!!!

Thanks Teemu!


Michael, those look very good indeed! 8)

Knife
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 09, 2019, 11:59:39 AM
Thanks  Denis, Kerry, Teemu Wayne, and Knife your input in my post is invaluable. Can't thank you enough!
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on July 09, 2019, 02:40:42 PM

For fluxing, I like to use Frankford Arsenal CleanCast Lead Flux.  It doesn't take much in a 20lb pot, just a pinch or two.  I also like to cover the top with a few pinches after rendering with Paraffin wax to keep oxygen out of the pot.  I tried the sawdust once, the Frankford is much cleaner.  I can't say I've had much clogging issues up until recently.  I'll blame it on the sawdust, lol.


I asked an employee at HD to sweep up some sawdust the last time I was there.  It's free, so I thought I would try it in my bottom pour.  Never again in there.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 09, 2019, 03:11:23 PM

For fluxing, I like to use Frankford Arsenal CleanCast Lead Flux.  It doesn't take much in a 20lb pot, just a pinch or two.  I also like to cover the top with a few pinches after rendering with Paraffin wax to keep oxygen out of the pot.  I tried the sawdust once, the Frankford is much cleaner.  I can't say I've had much clogging issues up until recently.  I'll blame it on the sawdust, lol.
Thanks Keith I'll order some up and give it a try. How much paraffin?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on July 09, 2019, 08:48:57 PM
I'm always trying to test and find a better product so here's what I'm using now:

Beeswax in easy dispensing form
https://www.amazon.com/Earthwise-Yellow-Beeswax-Pellets-Organic/dp/B07MPK4ZB9/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?keywords=Earthwise+Yellow+Beeswax+Pellets+-+Organic+-&qid=1562715755&s=gateway&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1  (https://www.amazon.com/Earthwise-Yellow-Beeswax-Pellets-Organic/dp/B07MPK4ZB9/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?keywords=Earthwise+Yellow+Beeswax+Pellets+-+Organic+-&qid=1562715755&s=gateway&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1)

I was using Frankford but...
As per Knifemaker, Frankford is basically borax so I ordered this and am trying it.
https://www.amazon.com/Borax-Jewelry-Soldering-Powder-Lb/dp/B017DLRWV8/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=Borax+Jewelry+Soldering+Powder+-+1+Lb&qid=1562716325&s=gateway&sr=8-3 (https://www.amazon.com/Borax-Jewelry-Soldering-Powder-Lb/dp/B017DLRWV8/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=Borax+Jewelry+Soldering+Powder+-+1+Lb&qid=1562716325&s=gateway&sr=8-3)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 09, 2019, 11:08:56 PM
I'm always trying to test and find a better product so here's what I'm using now:

Beeswax in easy dispensing form
https://www.amazon.com/Earthwise-Yellow-Beeswax-Pellets-Organic/dp/B07MPK4ZB9/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?keywords=Earthwise+Yellow+Beeswax+Pellets+-+Organic+-&qid=1562715755&s=gateway&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1  (https://www.amazon.com/Earthwise-Yellow-Beeswax-Pellets-Organic/dp/B07MPK4ZB9/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?keywords=Earthwise+Yellow+Beeswax+Pellets+-+Organic+-&qid=1562715755&s=gateway&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1)

I was using Frankford but...
As per Knifemaker, Frankford is basically borax so I ordered this and am trying it.
https://www.amazon.com/Borax-Jewelry-Soldering-Powder-Lb/dp/B017DLRWV8/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=Borax+Jewelry+Soldering+Powder+-+1+Lb&qid=1562716325&s=gateway&sr=8-3 (https://www.amazon.com/Borax-Jewelry-Soldering-Powder-Lb/dp/B017DLRWV8/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=Borax+Jewelry+Soldering+Powder+-+1+Lb&qid=1562716325&s=gateway&sr=8-3)
Thanks Carl it's great info. The soldering powder is interesting I've fabricated a lot of silver jewelry but always used a liquid to with solder. Tips on how you use each product would sure help.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on July 09, 2019, 11:36:08 PM
Every time I add lead to the pot, let it reach temperature then drop in 6 or 8 of the wax pellets ( holding a BBQ put 'long' butane lighter in one hand and my stir spoon ready in the other. As the beeswax starts smoking , I light it and then stir it to reduce the tin oxide back to tin in the melt.  If you light the smoke it burns cleaner and does not smoke up your shop.

Then, after the beeswax, I put in a teaspoon of borax flux and stir it again to pull out other impurities.
I'm still using sawdust to cap the melt and hold oxidization down, contrary to what others are saying/doing and have never seen any problems.  I just put some on top of the floating borax so maybe that's why?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on July 10, 2019, 01:01:09 AM

This is the paraffin wax I use.  $3 a pound at any local grocery store.  Can't get much cheaper than that, and last forever.   I just cut off a very small chunk and toss it in to render the tin back into the lead.  After that, I sprinkle in a few pinches of the Frankford and stir around, then dip out the dross.  I then drop a few more pinches in to coat the top and seal it off from oxygen.  Shop around for the Frankford.  Prices are all over the place.  I paid $11.52 shipped off eBay, but have seen it for $8 since somewhere else.  It's clean and very easy to work with.  Might try Carl's trick next, but it will be awhile before I run out.

I don't keep adding any lead back in from the sprue cuts that would break the top seal and introduce oxygen back in.  I wait until I need to add in more lead on a low lead supply before doing all of this all over again.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on July 10, 2019, 04:37:06 AM

This is the paraffin wax I use.  $3 a pound at any local grocery store.  Can't get much cheaper than that, and last forever.   I just cut off a very small chunk and toss it in to render the tin back into the lead.  After that, I sprinkle in a few pinches of the Frankford and stir around, then dip out the dross.  I then drop a few more pinches in to coat the top and seal it off from oxygen.  Shop around for the Frankford.  Prices are all over the place.  I paid $11.52 shipped off eBay, but have seen it for $8 since somewhere else.  It's clean and very easy to work with.  Might try Carl's trick next, but it will be awhile before I run out.

I don't keep adding any lead back in from the sprue cuts that would break the top seal and introduce oxygen back in.  I wait until I need to add in more lead on a low lead supply before doing all of this all over again.
Yah, any old hydrocarbon works.
I've even used old motor oil....
Bacon grease, toilet bowl rings, junk bullet lube, etc...
But somehow, down through the years, I just 'felt' that when I used real wax it worked better.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 10, 2019, 05:18:56 AM
Fantastic Keith and Carl you guys knocked out of the park! These tips are what I needed to know! Thanks so much.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on July 10, 2019, 11:53:36 AM


Hey Michael, check out this PID controller build:


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgixJeF0vEU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgixJeF0vEU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOqMyx5kv4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOqMyx5kv4)


Here's how to program it: 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVcrtQ_pdQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVcrtQ_pdQ)

I built one and it works great at keeping the melt at a constant temp for better cast results.  No more temp rises as the pot level drops. 

It's a fairly easy build, just gotta gather up the parts, which are listed at the bottom of the vids.  I got most of my parts off eBay and Walmart.

Here's what mine looks like:

(https://i.ibb.co/BqJXBz1/PID-build-03.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/RhjrmXY/PID-build-02.jpg)
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 10, 2019, 05:10:13 PM


Hey Michael, check out this PID controller build:


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgixJeF0vEU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgixJeF0vEU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOqMyx5kv4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOqMyx5kv4)


Here's how to program it: 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVcrtQ_pdQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVcrtQ_pdQ)

I built one and it works great at keeping the melt at a constant temp for better cast results.  No more temp rises as the pot level drops. 

It's a fairly easy build, just gotta gather up the parts, which are listed at the bottom of the vids.  I got most of my parts off eBay and Walmart.

Here's what mine looks like:

(https://i.ibb.co/BqJXBz1/PID-build-03.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/RhjrmXY/PID-build-02.jpg)
Thanks Keith I'll give it a watch and some though. Seems that my spare truck wants a new fuel pump? Not sure what I'm going to be doing for the next week lol.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 18, 2019, 01:02:09 PM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: rintafile on July 19, 2019, 01:02:50 AM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?

No. But keep that screw driver on that job only. It may lose magnetic tip because temperature ruins that but dosen't matter if you only use it for stirring pot.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on July 19, 2019, 01:11:00 AM
One of those cheap stainless spoons works too.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 19, 2019, 08:46:47 AM
Thanks Teemu & Carl sure need something thinner to stir with lol.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: BSJ on July 19, 2019, 09:22:40 AM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?

Does it have a plastic handle?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 19, 2019, 09:39:59 AM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?

Does it have a plastic handle?
Yes.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: BSJ on July 19, 2019, 10:56:40 AM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?

Does it have a plastic handle?
Yes.

Plastic that will melt at 600°+?

Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 19, 2019, 11:58:05 AM
Plastic that will melt at 600°+?
Thanks for the info. BSJ.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on July 19, 2019, 01:34:00 PM
One day about 30 years ago while in a pawn shop I saw a tub of misc tableware, I picked up a butter knife to scrape the pot sides (stirs too) and a fairly long handled tablespoon that for skimming the top.
Worked great since then.
High priced tools are not needed here is what I was trying to convey earlier.
Just never ever use them for anything else like food again because even if they are stainless, don't take a chance that lead might get introduced to food.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on July 19, 2019, 02:17:31 PM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?


I like using the Lee ladle.  First because it's cheap, but mostly because I can stir the pot well and pull up lead from the bottom, and scrape the sides, too.  It is also great for removing the dross and for dropping multiple small lead pieces like rejected bullets back into the hot lead safely away from any splatter.  You'd be fairly limited with a screwdriver as to what you can do with it.

If with ladle, be sure and rest it on top of the lead for a minute before diving in with it.  Condensate from anything is explosive once below the lead surface.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 19, 2019, 04:27:32 PM
Thanks Carl wide butter knife would be great. Keith i have a Lee ladle but it's pretty hard to stir vigorously lol. I use it to pull the dross and dirt off the sides.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: triggertreat on July 19, 2019, 04:51:08 PM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?


I like using the Lee ladle.  First because it's cheap, but mostly because I can stir the pot well and pull up lead from the bottom, and scrape the sides, too.  It is also great for removing the dross and for dropping multiple small lead pieces like rejected bullets back into the hot lead safely away from any splatter.  You'd be fairly limited with a screwdriver as to what you can do with it.

If with ladle, be sure and rest it on top of the lead for a minute before diving in with it.  Condensate from anything is explosive once below the lead surface.



Not in a 20lb pot...
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on July 19, 2019, 06:27:28 PM
Made up a lid for my 10lb pot a left over piece of flange cut out from a Charles 803 stripper still I made years ago.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: rintafile on July 20, 2019, 01:44:29 AM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?

Does it have a plastic handle?
Yes.

Plastic that will melt at 600°+?

Isn't that metal part which you use stirring? I've been stirring years and that hadle is still fine. I never thought nobody uses so short screw driver that hadle is dipping on lead  ::)   If need skim dirt/dross off then i use table spoon. I My pot is too big for stir spoon,ladle or etc.  So i use long screw driver and it works just fine. But if you do fluxing on different place than your pot there is not much to skim.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Insanity on July 21, 2019, 01:50:35 AM
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a screw driver to stir my pot?

Does it have a plastic handle?
Yes.

Plastic that will melt at 600°+?

Isn't that metal part which you use stirring? I've been stirring years and that hadle is still fine. I never thought nobody uses so short screw driver that hadle is dipping on lead  ::)   If need skim dirt/dross off then i use table spoon. I My pot is too big for stir spoon,ladle or etc.  So i use long screw driver and it works just fine. But if you do fluxing on different place than your pot there is not much to skim.

I know not all plastics are the same but I have plastics I 3d print with that I typically print at under 250c/482f~. I think length and time spent in the lead can affect the performance of plastic. Its all about the heat soak at that point.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: rintafile on July 21, 2019, 04:43:25 AM
Yup you are right. But if we speak stirring it usually takes 5-10 seconds. Even my hand dosen't burn at that time. But hey picture speaks more than words. Here is my screw drives which i use. Handle has some spots melted but thats just my fault. Been putting it near hot mold etc.
(https://img.aijaa.com/m/00293/14725519.jpg) (https://aijaa.com/A6stJe)

I rest my case. Everyone can use any tool which is suitable for that job.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on August 22, 2019, 11:54:09 AM
First batch of 217-30 HP weight run 27.5.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Nvreloader on August 22, 2019, 12:28:46 PM
Micheal

Looking good,  8)

What alloy of lead?

Tia,
Don
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on August 22, 2019, 12:46:08 PM
Micheal

Looking good,  8)

What alloy of lead?
Hi Don that's a good question lol. This batch are recycled pellets. I'm not at that level of casting yet to try alloy.
Getting ready to shoot a few through my Dominator. Just run a couple shots over chrono 1st shot 641 so I cranked down on the hammer spring. 2nd 809 going to leave it there. Shooting at 15yrds.
Glad you showed up these are unsized so there .217. Do you lub your bullets when resizing, if you do what do you use? Only resizing bushing I have is .215. Is .002 ok to resize dry or do I need a lub of some type? I have some paraffin wax and silicon grease.

Tia,
Don
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on August 22, 2019, 01:05:58 PM
Micheal

Looking good,  8)

What alloy of lead?
Hi Don that's a good question lol. This batch are recycled pellets. I'm not at that level of casting yet to try alloy.
Getting ready to shoot a few through my Dominator. Just run a couple shots over chrono 1st shot 641 so I cranked down on the hammer spring. 2nd 809 going to leave it there. Shooting at 15yrds.
Glad you showed up these are unsized so there .217. Do you lub your bullets when resizing, if you do what do you use? Only resizing bushing I have is .215. Is .002 ok to resize dry or do I need a lub of some type? I have some paraffin wax and silicon grease.

Tia,
Don
5 shot group humm not sure what to think lol. Going to hold off resizing till i here back from you Don or from someone who can answer my lub or not lub to resize.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: Kinetic45^ on August 22, 2019, 04:49:02 PM
Definitely lube for sizing.
If it's only a .001 or so I usually use my slug shooting lube.  If it's .003 or more than I use Redding Imperial Sizing wax... Just a trace on the fingers and as I pick up the bullet to run it through the die I roll it between my fingers to spread the lube on the sides of the slug.  Sizing pellets I put them in a Ziploc and put in a few drops of 10 wt synthetic oil and kneed it around so the sides are coated but not enough to get inside the skirts. Pellets are usually easy to size and don't take much and them they are already lubed for shooting.

With the sizing wax I usually give the bullets a rinse in solvent to take it off as I use a different slug lube for shooting.  Some find the sizing wax works for both sizing and shooting though. Just test and see what you like.

As per the groups, I bet if you slug the bore correctly and size right you will tighten that up considerably.  Love the NOE sizer system because the dies are cheap AND you can buy .001 undersize and polish to exact half size if you need and want to if your barrel requires it.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on August 22, 2019, 05:26:01 PM
Thanks For the info Carl sure helps a lot. I'll see if I can come up with something to slug the barrel.
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on August 22, 2019, 05:55:40 PM
How this sound for slugging the barrel. I have a small lee ladle that I can torch and just stick the end of the barrel in the melted lead and let harden up?
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: miksatx on August 22, 2019, 07:14:05 PM
How this sound for slugging the barrel. I have a small lee ladle that I can torch and just stick the end of the barrel in the melted lead and let harden up?
That didn't work. So got out my ingot mould found the nearest diameter. And pounded a slug in the barrel and got this. My calipers reads .216
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: K.O. on August 22, 2019, 08:46:10 PM
Not the way to do it... for a few reasons...

But the big one is "It don't work"

Lead shrinks as it cools from molten...

a lotta readin and some thinking goes a long ways to shorten the learning cuvre when learning to make and use cast lead ammo...

can use the rounds you cast to slug the barrel unless they are to small for the barrel... you will need a micrometer most vernier are not accurate enough...
Title: Re: 1st attempt
Post by: avator on February 21, 2024, 01:48:47 PM
You'll want to push the pellet all the way through the barrel from breech to muzzle. That will show you any tight spots or chokes in the barrel.