GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: DevilsLuck on August 23, 2018, 02:00:14 PM
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https://hardairmagazine.com/news/sig-sauer-leads-effort-to-legalize-airgun-hunting-in-new-hampshire/
We in America have virtually unrestricted freedom when it comes to our airguns, and the choices available to us. For the most part airguns fly under the radar when it comes to legal, or political scrutiny. With bigger pushes being made every year to broaden their acceptability for hunting (an idea I’m in favor of) more attention is being paid to our hobby, and sport.
While fellow airgunners have made great strides in gaining the okay from their local governments in regard to hunting; I fear what increased scrutiny might mean for airgunners as a whole. So far everything seems cool calm and collected. But when a well known firearms manufacturer decides to take the soapbox, and start stumping for acceptable legislating for airguns hunting... A lot of people are more likely to listen. And not all of them will be hunters, or airguns afficionados. Is Sig Sauers vocal outspoken stance a liability for the status quo of air gun laws in the US? I’m not sure. But if there is one law we can always count on; it’s the law of unintended consequences. And with a name like Sig Sauer, even the uninitiated can easily draw a straight line between firearms, and air guns.
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Personally I think the larger and larger calibers we are seeing are what is going to be what ends up with this sport under the microscope in the future. A .50 cal air rifle can certainly put a .50 cal hole in a human and it is just a matter of time before it happens and makes main stream news. As far as I know most places (if any) do not require a Federal background check to purchase an air rifle which means convicted felons can legally purchase them, please correct me if I am wrong on this account. Long gone are the days when this sport was all about .177, .20 and .22 calibers. Now people are casting "bullets" for their air rifles and the quest for more power continues. I think it will eventually bite us in the rear end. JMHO.
Brian
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I read this as some well paid bureaucrat has decided FOR you what caliber you can use to put a squirrel or bunny in the stew pot.
Never mind how many have been taken all these years with a well placed .177. jmho
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Personally I think the larger and larger calibers we are seeing are what is going to be what ends up with this sport under the microscope in the future. A .50 cal air rifle can certainly put a .50 cal hole in a human and it is just a matter of time before it happens and makes main stream news. As far as I know most places (if any) do not require a Federal background check to purchase an air rifle which means convicted felons can legally purchase them, please correct me if I am wrong on this account. Long gone are the days when this sport was all about .177, .20 and .22 calibers. Now people are casting "bullets" for their air rifles and the quest for more power continues. I think it will eventually bite us in the rear end. JMHO.
Brian
I think you are correct as far as it just being “a matter of time”. I just don’t think a name like Sig will help keep the wolves at bay.
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I have two thoughts about this.
There have been a lot of contributing factors that have led to the increase of air powered guns being used. People that only used powder burners became attracted to the air gun arena and once the PCP became a common it was only a matter of time before bigger, faster, better has taken such a hold.
Speed has always been a marketing strategy because people want it. With PCP it is now practical to expand into the black powder power realm.
Still, look at Britain, they have been regulated for decades to under 12 fpe.
The culture at large would have noticed eventually anyway. Have fun while the fun is there to get I quess.
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"While fellow airgunners have made great strides in gaining the okay from their local governments in regard to hunting"
Hate to tell you this, but virtually all hunting is regulated by State, if not Federal (migratory birds) laws. And if you think that State game laws don't apply to you as "only an airgunner", you're sadly mistaken. Local airgunners can only really get some laws adjusted as to where they can shoot. Crosman has put really big efforts into getting hunting legalized, so why not Sig Sauer?
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"While fellow airgunners have made great strides in gaining the okay from their local governments in regard to hunting"
Hate to tell you this, but virtually all hunting is regulated by State, if not Federal (migratory birds) laws. And if you think that State game laws don't apply to you as "only an airgunner", you're sadly mistaken.
While I don’t claim to know how you might have arrived at this conclusion; rest assured that I am aware.
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The culture at large would have noticed eventually anyway. Have fun while the fun is there to get I quess.
+1 to that. But I wonder how hard hit the manufacturers, and distributors would be were things to change drastically.
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I'm one of the few, I'm sure, that see no issue with regulatory oversight of guns (yes, that dirty phrase: gun control) I don't think its a bad thing for manufacturers to lobby states for the inclusion of air guns into the mainstream hunting scene, and I don't think its a bad thing for states to have oversight. Fact is, a higher power pcp is very dangerous and should be considered so. If that's what it takes to be able to use a .50 cal Seneca to take a deer then so be it.
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Well call me paranoid or whatever you like, but my stance on any infringements on my right to own and legally use airguns or guns is totally unacceptable or needed by any govt official be it state or federal. Its the old saying "give them an inch and they will take a mile". If we allow for any form of gun control other than the background check now in place to gain ground it will only serve to open that door wider for more and more control till we are no different than the rest of the world in terms of preserving and continuing the freedom to live as we chose. The second amendment must not be infringed on for it is the bases for all our other amendments to exist and not be infringed.
If the true criminals were actually sentenced according to their crimes and then the sentences carried out in timely fashion there would be much more incentive to not commit violent crimes. The number of dangerous criminals on death row is ridiculous and serves as no deterrent to others to not take another's life with the full understanding that if convicted you will not be on death row very long before sentence is completed. I guess I am in the wrong century since I truly believe if capital punishment in the form of "Public" hangings or firing squad still took place the crime rate would be greatly reduced. If you cant do the time, don't do the crime.
I for one will never conform to any infringement of the second amendment in any way shape or form. Its is a "GOD" given right to protect your family and property by any means necessary to survive. No man has the right to say other wise.
Hopefully the airgun manufactures are as unwavering as all of the red blooded Americans that love our country as much as I do and will die trying to preserve it for our generations to come.
Mike
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Tell them Mike!
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Tell them Mike!
Frank
I have never been known to not speak my mind when it is about our country and the constitution that our founding fathers set forth as our rules of the land. I just saw on the news last night that there is a movement to do away with the pledge of allegiance in our schools. It is a sad day for us if it actually happens. Definitely not the country I grew up in and love so dearly.
Mike
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1. The threat of imprisonment, and even the death penalty, has never been effective as a deterrence to people commiting violent crimes.
2. I, like the OP, am concerned about the attention extremely high power (meaning 100+ FPE) airguns may draw to our sport/hobby/whatever.
3. I too support some "controls" on gun purchases, but not so with airguns, mainly because (with a few exceptions) airguns are not effective people-killers. If that changes, we should have been able to foresee the attempts at government regulation we encounter with powder-burners.
-Whirly
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Tell them Mike!
Frank
I have never been known to not speak my mind when it is about our country and the constitution that our founding fathers set forth as our rules of the land. I just saw on the news last night that there is a movement to do away with the pledge of allegiance in our schools. It is a sad day for us if it actually happens. Definitely not the country I grew up in and love so dearly.
Mike
Didn't one of the freedoms our soldiers fought so valiantly for in WWII was the freedom of speech, including not to be forced to say something, which indicates that the government is totalitarian and does not value freedom?
-Whirly
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Tell them Mike!
Frank
I have never been known to not speak my mind when it is about our country and the constitution that our founding fathers set forth as our rules of the land. I just saw on the news last night that there is a movement to do away with the pledge of allegiance in our schools. It is a sad day for us if it actually happens. Definitely not the country I grew up in and love so dearly.
Mike
Didn't one of the freedoms our soldiers fought so valiantly for in WWII was the freedom of speech, including not to be forced to say something, which indicates that the government is totalitarian and does not value freedom?
-Whirly
Exactly, so why is the commies demos doing everything in their power to turn this country into a socialist republic like the rest of the world. IMO No guns is just the precursor to allow the govt to herds us up like cattle to the elimination. I will give up all my guns when they pry my cold dead hands from around them, use caution barrels will be HOT.
Mike
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Tell them Mike!
Frank
I have never been known to not speak my mind when it is about our country and the constitution that our founding fathers set forth as our rules of the land. I just saw on the news last night that there is a movement to do away with the pledge of allegiance in our schools. It is a sad day for us if it actually happens. Definitely not the country I grew up in and love so dearly.
Mike
Didn't one of the freedoms our soldiers fought so valiantly for in WWII was the freedom of speech, including not to be forced to say something, which indicates that the government is totalitarian and does not value freedom?
-Whirly
Exactly, so why is the commies demos doing everything in their power to turn this country into a socialist republic like the rest of the world. IMO No guns is just the precursor to allow the govt to herds us up like cattle to the elimination. I will give up all my guns when they pry my cold dead hands from around them, use caution barrels will be HOT.
Mike
While I'd love to have a debate about Communism and Capitalism, and how each may help or hinder a society, I fear this conversation may fall outside the conventions and policies of this forum, which is dedicated to airguns and not politics, and should end here.
However, I do invite you to read up on the notion of Democratic Socialism (https://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism), which I think would have assertions that would be agreeable to us both.
-Whirly
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Tell them Mike!
Frank
I have never been known to not speak my mind when it is about our country and the constitution that our founding fathers set forth as our rules of the land. I just saw on the news last night that there is a movement to do away with the pledge of allegiance in our schools. It is a sad day for us if it actually happens. Definitely not the country I grew up in and love so dearly.
Mike
Didn't one of the freedoms our soldiers fought so valiantly for in WWII was the freedom of speech, including not to be forced to say something, which indicates that the government is totalitarian and does not value freedom?
-Whirly
Exactly, so why is the commies demos doing everything in their power to turn this country into a socialist republic like the rest of the world. IMO No guns is just the precursor to allow the govt to herds us up like cattle to the elimination. I will give up all my guns when they pry my cold dead hands from around them, use caution barrels will be HOT.
Mike
While I'd love to have a debate about Communism and Capitalism, and how each may help or hinder a society, I fear this conversation may fall outside the conventions and policies of this forum, which is dedicated to airguns and not politics, and should end here.
However, I do invite you to read up on the notion of Democratic Socialism (https://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism), which I think would have assertions that would be agreeable to us both.
-Whirly
Agreed this is not the place to have any type of political debate as well.
While I do see pluses in the democratic socialism movement as well as minuses, sadly to me its all just pipe dreams since the elite in this country and the world for that matter will never allow it to happen. If it did gain favor by the time it was all said and done it will still lean more toward capitalism than socialism IMO. At least it my lifetime I will never see it take place. Our govt is so lost in its way that its become a entitled group of people that truly only care about their destiny in life. Time to clean house if you ask me.
Mike
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Personally I think the larger and larger calibers we are seeing are what is going to be what ends up with this sport under the microscope in the future. A .50 cal air rifle can certainly put a .50 cal hole in a human and it is just a matter of time before it happens and makes main stream news. As far as I know most places (if any) do not require a Federal background check to purchase an air rifle which means convicted felons can legally purchase them, please correct me if I am wrong on this account. Long gone are the days when this sport was all about .177, .20 and .22 calibers. Now people are casting "bullets" for their air rifles and the quest for more power continues. I think it will eventually bite us in the rear end. JMHO.
Brian
I think you are correct as far as it just being “a matter of time”. I just don’t think a name like Sig will help keep the wolves at bay.
First they came for the machine guns, and I did not speak out—because I did not own a machine gun.
Then they came for the high capacity magazines, and I did not speak out— because I did not own a high capacity magazine.
Then they came for the bump stocks, and I did not speak out—because I did not own a bump stock.
Then they came for my air rifle — and there was no one left to speak for me.
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The price of admission into high power big bore PCP airguns is one thing that keeps them largely in the hands of responsible owners but it's only a matter of time until such an airgun is used in the commission of a felony and God forbid if it's a homicide and doubly so if it's committed by someone banned from owning a firearm. Then the biased media will make the most of the situation to put these airguns in a bad light, and by association ALL airguns will then come under scrutiny. What may follow is anyone's guess but it's bound to be detrimental to the hobby/sport.
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United we stand , Divided we fall has never been more important than the world we live in today.
Mike
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Count me in.... I'm of the "come and get em" mindset.
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I think the conversation has skipped past the point. The point being, those whom are the vocal representatives of our sport, and the kind of attention they bring. My concern is about a German company, in its zeal to sell products to American sportsmen, will end up hamstringing us all...
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I thought Sig Sauer was American. I know the new springer is completely made in the USA.
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You know I love airguns. Just look around my Man Cave and you can tell that instantly. :)
I have a bitter sweet take on the direction I believe our sport/hobby is heading. And this is not a new revelation to me, I've felt this way from the beginning.
I want to promote our sport/hobby and get the word out to those that have no clue. And to bring more good folks into the fold that could and would enjoy them as much as we do.
The push and acceptance of airguns for hunting really worries me. They are capable and SHOULD be allowed. But it puts them along side and comparable to powder burners. It IS just a matter of time before new regulations and restrictions follow. When more folks learn of the REAL potential of airguns, our sport/hobby will change forever. Mark my words.
And the look-alike airguns REALLY make me uncomfortable. This removes our identity and makes our beloved airguns even more of a threat to some. When misused or when someone gets hurt (or mistakenly killed) that involves a look-alike airgun, the ball will start rolling. I'm sure the ball is actually rolling already to regulate or eliminate airguns.
This is just my take, my gut feeling.
We have archaic laws on the books in the surrounding cities that ban all citizens from owning and operating airguns, BB guns and even sling shots within the city limits. That puts ALL of us in a category of vandals. I would like to have these stricken from the books but adding airguns to allowed hunting instruments, IMO, will strengthen these ordinances and make them near impossible to get removed.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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You know I love airguns. Just look around my Man Cave and you can tell that instantly. :)
I have a bitter sweet take on the direction I believe our sport/hobby is heading. And this is not a new revelation to me, I've felt this way from the beginning.
I want to promote our sport/hobby and get the word out to those that have no clue. And to bring more good folks into the fold that could and would enjoy them as much as we do.
The push and acceptance of airguns for hunting really worries me. They are capable and SHOULD be allowed. But it puts them along side and comparable to powder burners. It IS just a matter of time before new regulations and restrictions follow. When more folks learn of the REAL potential of airguns, our sport/hobby will change forever. Mark my words.
And the look-alike airguns REALLY makes me uncomfortable. This removes our identity and makes our beloved airguns even more of a threat to some. When misused or when someone gets huts (or mistakenly killed) that involves a look-alike airgun, the ball will start rolling. I'm sure the ball is actually rolling already to regulate or eliminate airguns.
This is just my take, my gut feeling.
We have archaic laws on the books in the surrounding cities that ban all citizens from owning and operating airguns, BB guns and even sling shots within the city limits. That puts ALL of us in a category of vandals. I would like to have these stricken from the books but adding airguns to allowed hunting instruments, IMO, will strengthen these ordinances and make them near impossible to get removed.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I lament the ultimate outcome of what the demand for recognition, of airguns power will lead to. My own fond childhood memories of airgunning will not be available to the future generations. If regulated like any kind of weapon; those days will be gone forever. Then we’ll have to ask ourselves, “was it really worth it”?
I guess for some it is. But the reality is that it will effect us all as airgunners, even though airgun hunters, are a small segment of the airgun community. Gone will be the hobby/Smith’s innovating in their garages. The small cottage industries that supply us with unique hand made parts. And if one has to start jumping through hoops to get an air gun, many will opt to just get the powder burner instead. Often, they are cheaper.
Likely gone as well are some of the communities favorite airgun makers. Thomas, RAW, and others who might lack the will, or capital to pursue the costly, and onerous liscensing required to stay in business.
But then to have a foreign manufacturer come over here, and start hoopin’, and hollerin’ “hey! Look what airguns can do!” Really angers me. They need to stay in their lane, and out of American politics. But with our nation adopting their weapons for the military it’s just a pipe dream.
Still many want airguns to “get the respect they deserve”. Careful what you wish for... Because we all may get it.
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Amen to that
Mitch
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Sig can say they are "helping" us establish better hunting laws all they want.
It doesn't change the fact that they could care less about your hunting laws or your sportsmen type hobbies.
It all boils down to $$$ MONEY $$$
They have seen a constantly growing segment of the airgun market and are trying to be the big dog at the food bowl.
All this is just in the hopes that "THEY" sell more airguns... period !
I agree with others when they say this will probably end with airguns (big bores especially) falling under some type of regulation.
And the replica airguns that look just like their powder burning cousins is gonna bite us in the arse one day, just watch.
Some stupid kid is gonna hold one up in front of a law enforcement officer and get shot for it.
And then that stupid kids parents will sue the city, the officer, and then the airgun company probably putting them out of business with bankruptcy.
So much of a good thing can be bad for you never had a truer meaning that airguns do today.
Ray
P.S. faster and bigger ain't always better, if you catch my drift
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Big bore, high velocity, hunting with air guns, air guns that look like real guns, pesting to kill something rather than protecting the house or garden. Slippery slope.
Years ago in S.C. con get out of jail and also has a contract to kill someone. Buys a cap and ball revolver and does the dead. Few hours later guy and gal cops killed him in a shoot out.
NRA seem to have got half the people hating PB's. Maybe the ASA can do the same for us.
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A 12 year old kid with a look alike BB pistol has already been killed by cops.
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NRA seem to have got half the people hating PB's. Maybe the ASA can do the same for us.
I know, another unpopular opinion, but I think the NRA has done more harm than good. Once, a long time ago, they actually represented the shooting sports, sportsmen, and hobbyists; now they represent mostly the gun manufacturers.
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In this talk of the inevitability that big bore air rifles will become regulated, it seems to me we are already there. Ask someone who lives in Illinois where a .22 is a big bore.
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I'm not an NRA life member but will probably do so next renewal. The NRA seems to be one of the very few (if not the only) organization that supports the armed public. Sure they support the "gun manufacturers" because without them there will be no shooters. They also fight political powers (money) that would take away all second amendment rights if they could and that takes money as well. All IMO of course.
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NRA seem to have got half the people hating PB's. Maybe the ASA can do the same for us.
I know, another unpopular opinion, but I think the NRA has done more harm than good.
To an extent I can agree with this. When they bother to work to get laws removed from the books, rather than help write them; maybe then I’ll give them a listen. Till then... they need not bother passing me the hat. Besides... if the time came where airgunners might want NRA representation; the debate will have already been lost.
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I'm one of the few, I'm sure, that see no issue with regulatory oversight of guns (yes, that dirty phrase: gun control) I don't think its a bad thing for manufacturers to lobby states for the inclusion of air guns into the mainstream hunting scene, and I don't think its a bad thing for states to have oversight. Fact is, a higher power pcp is very dangerous and should be considered so. If that's what it takes to be able to use a .50 cal Seneca to take a deer then so be it.
If everyone thought like you, no one would be allowed to own guns Sorry but this needed to be said.
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Very true. We have to come together to educate these left-wing snowflakes what air guns are and are not. They are the single most detrimental faction of society that will easily ruin this country if they are not educated properly on the subject. " Those that can't do teach" is more prevalent today than ever before.
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The problem with the left wing is they are not willing to learn anything about any type of guns whatsoever. Its difficult to teach those who have no desire to learn much less think rational or logical. Its not in their agenda to compromise or negotiate.
Mike
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The problem with the left wing is they are not willing to learn anything about any type of guns whatsoever. Its difficult to teach those who have no desire to learn much less think rational or logical. Its not in their agenda to compromise or negotiate.
Mike
Blanket generalization. I'm as far left as you can get, but have been using and been around guns my whole life. I've hunted since I was legal and went every time I could with my dad before. I simply don't see guns as mark of freedom or badge of honor. To me they are a tool and hobby. I have no problem with regulation, licensing and control. And have never been afraid of the government taking my rights away until 2016.
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NO POLITICAL OR RELIGOUS DISCUSSION!!!
With the topic, it's hard to do. But keep the political comments out.....
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NO POLITICAL OR RELIGOUS DISCUSSION!!!
With the topic, it's hard to do. But keep the political comments out.....
It is hard, especially when the very title is political in nature. Maybe time to can this discussion.
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NO POLITICAL OR RELIGOUS DISCUSSION!!!
With the topic, it's hard to do. But keep the political comments out.....
Thank you.
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NO POLITICAL OR RELIGOUS DISCUSSION!!!
With the topic, it's hard to do. But keep the political comments out.....
It is hard, especially when the very title is political in nature. Maybe time to can this discussion.
The topic of how we airgunners represent ourselves, and whom we allow to represent us is an important topic. Our shared common interest depends on productive dialogue. As far as having a foreign entity drawing scrutiny to American shooters within our shared common hobby... It’s a topic worth discussing.
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NO POLITICAL OR RELIGOUS DISCUSSION!!!
With the topic, it's hard to do. But keep the political comments out.....
It is hard, especially when the very title is political in nature. Maybe time to can this discussion.
Hard but not impossible. If the political comments continue, this WILL go to the trash and the offenders may get a vacation from posting.
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For somebody or nobody whose only interaction with America is this forum I have this to say, relevant or not.
I am amazed at how easy it is for Americans to possess firearms. The comment that was made on this forum to the effect that the people in the congregation would be surprised to find that the old respectable chap was carrying a semi automatic pistol (1911 I recall) Another comment to the effect that stupid gets you shot over here. Yes I am surprised. Your circumstances are different to a very small isolated bottom of the world country. Mass shootings a very rare, even anyone getting shot is very rare. Suicide is our biggest killer.
Here airguns are treated exactly the same as powder burners. Every offence against the Arms Act or the Crimes Act can be committed just as much with an airgun as with a firearm and includes imitation firearms. The only difference between the two is that you must be over 16 years and have a firearms licence to possess a powder burner. You must be over 18 years with no firearms licence or under 18 but have a firearms licence to possess an airgun. Anyone of any age can shoot any gun with immediate supervision by a person allowed to do so.
I think we are very well catered for as far as guns go. BUT, there is new legislation in the offing to do with secure storage of firearms and air pistols that look like real pistols, and they all do.
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NO POLITICAL OR RELIGOUS DISCUSSION!!!
There are tons of forums for posting political or religious content. I'm happy to have one forum that is just about our hobby. Let's please keep it that way
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A .50 cal air rifle can certainly put a .50 cal hole in a human and it is just a matter of time before it happens and makes main stream news.
Do not know the calibre, but something similar already did in Britain..
hxxps ://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/06/ex-armysniper-jailed-using-high-powered-air-rifle-shoot-five/
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NO POLITICAL OR RELIGOUS DISCUSSION!!!
There are tons of forums for posting political or religious content. I'm happy to have one forum that is just about our hobby. Let's please keep it that way
Thank you Marc.
This thread treads dangerously close to The Line.
I live the first state to allow airgun-hunting of larger game. What is most interesting is that it was a member of our forum that lives in another state that complained to our VA DNR authorities that culminated in some changes that negatively impact airgun deer hunters. My point?
When one finger points at others, three fingers are pointing at one's self.
If the laws in the US change, the easy answer is vote the old politicians out and put new ones in place.
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I don't think the thread premise threatens "the line". It's a pretty straight forward question. Should American airgunners take issue with foreign manufacturers involving themselves in American/local politics; for the obvious purpose of driving sales? And does their involvement represent a potential detriment to the status quo of airgunning in the US? And if so... What should the airgunning community do to preserve our sport?
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DL, with all due respect..
It's not the premise that threatens, it's the temptation that many find difficult to avoid.
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Have a look at the contents of the Non-Productive gate. Most, if not all of this type thread end up there. Unfortunately, it's been the fate of much otherwise useful information.
Sadly, the writing is already on the wall for this one too.
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Have a look at the contents of the Non-Productive gate. Most, if not all of this type thread end up there. Unfortunately, it's been the fate of much otherwise useful information.
Sadly, the writing is already on the wall for this one too.
I hope not. But it would be somewhat saddening that those most affected by changes, are the same ones who are supposed to remain silent...
My intent is not to discuss politics; but rather scrutinize manufacturers who have taken it upon themselves to do so, for the purpose of getting into our pockets. And whether their actions, and the results of those actions would be welcomed by the air gun community...
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The globalization of businesses should not lead to globalization of regulation or restrictions that infringe on rights and freedoms .
Mike
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It's a good time to live in Alabama... right fellas? ;)
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It's a good time to live in Alabama... right fellas? ;)
Yessir it is at that. I am just a good ole red blooded American alive and well in the Heart of Dixie.
Mike
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I just wonder if Sig Sauer, and those who welcome their support have considered any detrimental negative consequences. Or have they been blinded by "instant gratification"? Immediate sales... A new way of hunting... A new level of "respect"... I just can't help but think that some haven't really thought this through, as well as they should have...
If this were a Crosman, and native air gun hunters, I'd have much less of a problem with this. It's their rights no matter what outcome. But for a foreign interest to do so, and to be welcomed at that; seems reckless. Especially when it has the potential to effect us all.
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It's a good time to live in Alabama... right fellas? ;)
+100!!!
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Living in one of the MOST Regulated states in the union ... what frightens me most is the Conviction manufacturers such as Sig Sauer that the market and consumers NEED tactical look like copies of actual assault weapons ???
IMO would agree to the youth leaving computer gaming, Air soft etc where Tacti-cool is all the rage, In the real world among those who take AIR GUNNING serious these guns are a joke !! They simply are a false representation of a type & power of gun there NOT !!
In a society suffering gun violence coast to coast and the attack of Non shooters agaist those who do .... What the he ll are these tactical look like guns doing to our image and long term survival of the air gun sports overall ?
They will bring attention to us and be at the root of further regulations ... IMO
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I have two thoughts about this.
There have been a lot of contributing factors that have led to the increase of air powered guns being used. People that only used powder burners became attracted to the air gun arena and once the PCP became a common it was only a matter of time before bigger, faster, better has taken such a hold.
Speed has always been a marketing strategy because people want it. With PCP it is now practical to expand into the black powder power realm.
Still, look at Britain, they have been regulated for decades to under 12 fpe.
The culture at large would have noticed eventually anyway. Have fun while the fun is there to get I quess.
Dave,
I'd like to add another reason for the increase in air rifle use. I like trigger time but in the last 10 or 15 years firearm ammo has become more expensive and firearm ranges have closed.
Since I love trigger time, mostly at paper, the airgun became the better candidate due to cost and convenience. I can shoot in my back yard or basement any time I wish.
Thanks,
Taso
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In this talk of the inevitability that big bore air rifles will become regulated, it seems to me we are already there. Ask someone who lives in Illinois where a .22 is a big bore.
Any air gun over .177 caliber and shooting faster than 700 fps is considered a firearm in Illinois. You have to have a FOID card for it but there is no federal background check required. All .177 caliber air guns are exempt.
Taso
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For somebody or nobody whose only interaction with America is this forum I have this to say, relevant or not.
I am amazed at how easy it is for Americans to possess firearms. The comment that was made on this forum to the effect that the people in the congregation would be surprised to find that the old respectable chap was carrying a semi automatic pistol (1911 I recall) Another comment to the effect that stupid gets you shot over here. Yes I am surprised. Your circumstances are different to a very small isolated bottom of the world country. Mass shootings a very rare, even anyone getting shot is very rare. Suicide is our biggest killer.
Here airguns are treated exactly the same as powder burners. Every offence against the Arms Act or the Crimes Act can be committed just as much with an airgun as with a firearm and includes imitation firearms. The only difference between the two is that you must be over 16 years and have a firearms licence to possess a powder burner. You must be over 18 years with no firearms licence or under 18 but have a firearms licence to possess an airgun. Anyone of any age can shoot any gun with immediate supervision by a person allowed to do so.
I think we are very well catered for as far as guns go. BUT, there is new legislation in the offing to do with secure storage of firearms and air pistols that look like real pistols, and they all do.
Mods, I apologize in advance as I know this comment is about firearms and not permitted. I just wanted to inform our international members.
Hugh,
I have to disagree that guns are so easy to purchase. Any gun purchased at retail has to be a Federal Firearms License holder in good standing. The federal forms need to be filled out for every purchase. Many states perform stricter background checks and have a waiting period before the purchaser can take possession of the firearm. In Illinois we are required to have a valid firearm owners id card if we possess firearms. You can not get the card if you are a felon or other have any other infractions or pending investigations or mental illness. Also in Illinois private sales require proof of the gun card and the seller needs to record that information if the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms investigates a person or a firearm.
Definitely not easy unless you have been a law abiding citizen your whole life.
Thanks,
Taso
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I'm helping!
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Now that I'm done going off topic as I normally do, sorry, I agree that Sig Sauer's interest is sales.
As for more people learning of the full range of capabilities of air rifles? I've always believed knowledge is power.
I believe the more family, friends and co workers we expose to air gunning the better it is for our hobby and sport.
There will always be people to use knowledge for nefarious agendas. They can only influence the ignorant.
WE all know air guns are not toys. Should dangerous things be kept away from ignorant and irresponsible people? Yes. Should they also be kept away from people with criminal intent? Yes.
Those beliefs may be a little polarizing but WE as airgun ambassadors have to protect our air gun hobby and sport's image. No one else is going to. ;D
Thanks,
Taso
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Thank you for that Taso1000. I didn't know that. I looks like I have pushed the topic to the edge at least in off topic. but I can't see that it does any harm to discuss. I should have been more circumspect. I surely don't want to be banned.
On a happier note, I to like shooty airguns especialy the ones you can shoot in the garden and the workshop. That is one of the joys.
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Criminals don't care about or obey gun laws anywhere in the world so only law abiding citizens will be affected by gun laws. So would you rather trust your life to the authorities for them to protect you in a criminal encounter, or trust yourself to eliminate the threat. I know what my answer is and will be without hesitation. It will never change until I leave this world when the Big Guy is ready for me.
That's what it means to be an American citizen, the right to choose for your self.
Mike
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We are in agreement more than you think Mike. :)
Criminals don't care about or obey gun laws anywhere in the world so only law abiding citizens will be affected by gun laws.
Agreed!
So would you rather trust your life to the authorities for them to protect you in a criminal encounter, or trust yourself to eliminate the threat.
Definitely not. By the time the authorities arrive it's too late. I am well prepared multiple times over, wink wink nudge nudge, if you know what I mean. ;D
So we have to find a balance that works right? This is a great topic for a different thread though. :)
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
All I can say at least for me there is no balance other than zero infringement on my right to protect my family and property as I see fit, which is with guns or other deadly items to include motor vehicles . For me its a GOD given right that no man can take away or alter in any way.
There is no middle ground when it comes to my family and property.
Mike
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I just wonder if Sig Sauer, and those who welcome their support have considered any detrimental negative consequences. Or have they been blinded by "instant gratification"? Immediate sales... A new way of hunting... A new level of "respect"... I just can't help but think that some haven't really thought this through, as well as they should have...
If this were a Crosman, and native air gun hunters, I'd have much less of a problem with this. It's their rights no matter what outcome. But for a foreign interest to do so, and to be welcomed at that; seems reckless. Especially when it has the potential to effect us all.
I personally have neutral feelings towards Sig (so don't take this the wrong way), Sig actually has manufacturing and Engineering facilities here in the US.
I believe their air gun division is here...somebody can investigate but I believe this is true.
Sure, I believe they doing this to make more money and could care less about potential consequences.
Bottom line...enjoy your airgunning freedoms while you can.
Things tend to change and many times for the worse when bureaucrats get involved.
But it seems the changes hit those States with large city populations first.
So personally, I am not worried about the laws changing anytime soon for my State or those States that surround it.
Haha, this reply is about as far as I can go without violating forum rules.
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Living in one of the MOST Regulated states in the union ... what frightens me most is the Conviction manufacturers such as Sig Sauer that the market and consumers NEED tactical look like copies of actual assault weapons ???
IMO would agree to the youth leaving computer gaming, Air soft etc where Tacti-cool is all the rage, In the real world among those who take AIR GUNNING serious these guns are a joke !! They simply are a false representation of a type & power of gun there NOT !!
In a society suffering gun violence coast to coast and the attack of Non shooters agaist those who do .... What the he ll are these tactical look like guns doing to our image and long term survival of the air gun sports overall ?
They will bring attention to us and be at the root of further regulations ... IMO
Scott, I have to agree. There is no reason to make an airgun look like firearm. I know they say training purposes but if you are training with a bb gun you are fooling yourself. Also, the firearm branding is ridiculous too.
Tom
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I'm of a bit different opinion on this Tom...
The Daisy Red Ryder was absolutely designed to look like the rifles that tamed the West. And virtually every kid, when I was growing up, had to have one. Now, I'm not at all into the tactical looks of the modern day offerings but I can almost see why kids these days are. Back then we had cowboys as heros.... not so much today.
Blame it on G.I. Joe and FPS video games.
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I'm of a bit different opinion on this Tom...
The Daisy Red Ryder was absolutely designed to look like the rifles that tamed the West. And virtually every kid, when I was growing up, had to have one. Now, I'm not at all into the tactical looks of the modern day offerings but I can almost see why kids these days are. Back then we had cowboys as heros.... not so much today.
Blame it on G.I. Joe.
Something that irks me is this habit of manufacturers branding items “tactical”! Completely disregarding the meaning of the word. Are picattiny rails, muzzle brakes, poly stocks, or forward grips, “tactical”? No. They aren’t. Though they can be... Confused yet? If the features, and items you have attached to, or built into your gear, are put there specifically to aid in the execution of a tactic you are specifically training for; then yes. Said items and features are in that case “tactical”. If the only reason you have things like this attached to your gear is because you are trying to emulate something you saw, and are merely trying to shoe-horn it into your own methods... This isn’t tactical. At all.
Unless adding unnecessary weight, and unbalancing your gun, for the sake of “looking cool”, is somehow part of a tactic you plan to employ...
Light weight, minimalist, high speed, low drag set ups are every bit as “tactical” as the ridiculous LEGO monstrosities we see cobbled together on many guns. Probably more so. Especially if the gun is set up to efficiently aid your shooting style, and intended use of the gun, per the tactic you have chosen.
In short... if it isn’t specifically selected, and implemented as a part of your own purpose built tactic, it isn’t tactical. It’s (I let you fill in the blank...).
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I'm of a bit different opinion on this Tom...
The Daisy Red Ryder was absolutely designed to look like the rifles that tamed the West. And virtually every kid, when I was growing up, had to have one. Now, I'm not at all into the tactical looks of the modern day offerings but I can almost see why kids these days are. Back then we had cowboys as heros.... not so much today.
Blame it on G.I. Joe and FPS video games.
I understand and you are correct about the Red Ryder. Unfortunately its a different world for many of us.
At least with the RR it was designed in time when bb guns were a right of passage. You can also make the argument that the lever is perfect for a bb gun because if has a legitimate purpose. A break barrel AR is much harder to justify IMHO.
Tom
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The problem with the left wing is they are not willing to learn anything about any type of guns whatsoever. Its difficult to teach those who have no desire to learn much less think rational or logical. Its not in their agenda to compromise or negotiate.
Mike
I would be very careful with the name calling and generalizing and labeling of fellow citizens. That is precisely why the country is so divided. As soon as you name Call or generalize in a negative way then you shut down any possibility of talking and finding middle ground and things you agree on.
I am socially pretty far left. Taint none of our business if a man loves a man or a woman loves a woman, or if a feller never quite indentified as a feller. No harm to me. Freedom you know?
I am good with the whole freedom of religion thing we have, just don’t try to shove your religion down my throat, or prevent my other neighbors from practicing their religion. Freedom you know?
I can’t stand a current crop of “fiscally responsible “ politicians filling their pockets up as hard as they can, flying first class, outfitting their offices with high dollar furniture etc while insisting on austerity for the extreme poor, sick and elderly.
I happen to love AirGuns, big and small caliber, and I like firearms also. I’ve been a good citizen and have never been charged with a crime and so I can own either. I think it’s reasonable that we have some regulation. That hothead neighbor of mine surely would use an RPG on me for using my chainsaw before noon on a Sunday.
Some folks here are all about not getting their god given right to own their (insert your favorite) but don’t want to help out fellow airgun owners who want to hunt deer with their big bore AirGuns.
Oh and RIP John McCain. Though I often did not agree with your politics, I never took your service to the country for granted. You truly suffered and gave of yourself and sacrificed. Salute!
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LOL.... just can't help poking a finger in it, can we?
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LOL.... just can't help poking a finger in it, can we?
Nope
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The problem with the left wing is they are not willing to learn anything about any type of guns whatsoever. Its difficult to teach those who have no desire to learn much less think rational or logical. Its not in their agenda to compromise or negotiate.
Mike
I would be very careful with the name calling and generalizing and labeling of fellow citizens. That is precisely why the country is so divided. As soon as you name Call or generalize in a negative way then you shut down any possibility of talking and finding middle ground and things you agree on.
I am socially pretty far left. Taint none of our business if a man loves a man or a woman loves a woman, or if a feller never quite indentified as a feller. No harm to me. Freedom you know?
I am good with the whole freedom of religion thing we have, just don’t try to shove your religion down my throat, or prevent my other neighbors from practicing their religion. Freedom you know?
I can’t stand a current crop of “fiscally responsible “ politicians filling their pockets up as hard as they can, flying first class, outfitting their offices with high dollar furniture etc while insisting on austerity for the extreme poor, sick and elderly.
I happen to love AirGuns, big and small caliber, and I like firearms also. I’ve been a good citizen and have never been charged with a crime and so I can own either. I think it’s reasonable that we have some regulation. That hothead neighbor of mine surely would use an RPG on me for using my chainsaw before noon on a Sunday.
Some folks here are all about not getting their god given right to own their (insert your favorite) but don’t want to help out fellow airgun owners who want to hunt deer with their big bore AirGuns.
Oh and RIP John McCain. Though I often did not agree with your politics, I never took your service to the country for granted. You truly suffered and gave of yourself and sacrificed. Salute!
Indeed!
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I have stated my beliefs and opinions and stand by them. Be thankful for the ability to speak your mind without fear.
We just agree to disagree, Nuff said.
Mike
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Guys, once again please don't let this get political. It's a good topic and I'd hate to see it get shut down.
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Guys, once again please don't let this get political. It's a good topic and I'd hate to see it get shut down.
Thank you.
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Even the “group” that Sig has partnered in forming is designed to help generate sales.
“So we worked with game officials and legislators in New Hampshire to amend a bill to allow hunting of small game with air rifles, such as the new SIG ASP20 break barrel air rifle.”
“The bill legalizes small game hunting with air rifles having a caliber of .22 or larger. The minimum Muzzle Energy required is 12 Ft/Lbs.”
^^^^^^
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Gee... I wonder where they got the idea for 12Ft/Lbs...?
“A primary focus of the Airgun Sporting Association is to strengthen relationships between state wildlife agencies and representatives of the airgun industry.”
Nowhere in their schpiel are they concerning themselves with the shooter. It’s marketing, and nothing more.
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Huston himself is nothing less than a shill For Sig Sauer... from the article...
https://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/sig-sauer-hires-industry-veteran-joseph-huston/#axzz5PMv2z4SR (https://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/sig-sauer-hires-industry-veteran-joseph-huston/#axzz5PMv2z4SR)
“Huston will report directly to Ron Cohen, president and CEO of SIG SAUER, and is responsible for the management and development of the company’s Advanced Sport Pellet (ASP) line.”
This new “group” (Airgun Sporting Association) isn’t some grass roots organization, started by airgunners, with American air gunners as its core concern. It’s nothing more than a marketing/PR/lobbying wing of Sig Sauer. It serves, and directly reports to Sig Sauer. And represents only Sig Sauer...
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I've said this on a few occasions...
I enjoy the relative obscurity and niche of our sport. It guarantees a certain level of freedom that powder burners don't see. I DO NOT like the idea of large, powerful brand names of firearms getting involved. I knew this was coming as soon as I started seeing the firearm company's branded and replica bb guns. I shook my head and thought to myself that "this WILL bite us squarely...". My opinion hasn't changed. I do NOT feel this is a good thing.
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Even the “group” that Sig has partnered in forming is designed to help generate sales.
“So we worked with game officials and legislators in New Hampshire to amend a bill to allow hunting of small game with air rifles, such as the new SIG ASP20 break barrel air rifle.”
“The bill legalizes small game hunting with air rifles having a caliber of .22 or larger. The minimum Muzzle Energy required is 12 Ft/Lbs.”
^^^^^^
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Gee... I wonder where they got the idea for 12Ft/Lbs...?
“A primary focus of the Airgun Sporting Association is to strengthen relationships between state wildlife agencies and representatives of the airgun industry.”
Nowhere in their schpiel are they concerning themselves with the shooter. It’s marketing, and nothing more.
This! Nice find DL! No mention of hunters or airgun enthusiasts is damning.
Taso
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Just one thing to point out...Black Powder will always be more powerful than any PCP. Currently if a Black Powder gun can not accept or be readily changed to accept cartridges, the ATF does not consider them to be Firearms. That said why are we worried that the Gov't will all of a sudden start regulating Air Guns? The criminal is going to buy a $100 Black Powder way before they are going to shell out >$1k for a Big Bore PCP and the means to fill it.
Big Bore PCPs are not CHEAP! They are an excellent way to reengage with hunting after becoming bored due to mordern PBs shooting sub-MOA out of the box.
The more people we have hunting/shooting Air Guns the better. I am constantly opening the eyes of non-owners as to the possibilities of the modern air gun. I don't care who helps to get laws changed, just that they are changed.
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That said why are we worried that the Gov't will all of a sudden start regulating Air Guns? The criminal is going to buy a $100 Black Powder way before they are going to shell out >$1k for a Big Bore PCP and the means to fill it.
True but playing the devil's advocate, aren't air-rifles considered the red-head step-child of rifles?
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Before big bore PCPs, air guns were largely synonymous with BB guns. And to a lot of people they still are. Once the word gets out how powerful they can be, things may change.
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Before big bore PCPs, air guns were largely synonymous with BB guns. And to a lot of people they still are. Once the word gets out how powerful they can be, things may change.
Black Powder was responsible for nearly wiping out the Buffalo, which takes a lot of Power. No Anti-gunner I know of has ever had a problem with Black Powder. Heck a Convicted Felon can legally own and shoot one, because they are not "Firearms".
I don't think its the power that scares people. I think its fast repeated use of the power.
I don't think most Anti-gunners think of hunting guns as "bad guns", their Dad, Grandpa, Uncle, etc had hunting guns. What scares most of them are the "Evil Black Guns" that can hold and shoot 30+ rounds. So I think, if we can get it in their heads that Big Bore PCPs are "Hunting Guns" we won't have a problem. The Feds couldn't careless as they are not Firearms, so we have to worry about Local Gov't which is a lot easier to show the truth too and educate. The more people using airguns the easier this will be. Local Reps tend to listen to their constitutes fairly well.
Anytime I bring up Big Bore PCP in conversation, I always get asked "why would you want to Hunt with one of those instead of a normal gun?" I have never had anyone freak out about how powerful they are. Single shot = hunting = no threat.
Then I really blow their minds when I tell them about Lewis and Clark having a Big Bore PCP way back then.
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Seems like it's going to be hard to address issues when you can't openly discuss them. But rampant censorship of all things is normalized now.
That said, the entire notion of going to big bore airguns seems nonsensical to me. They can be just as powerful as a powder burner but at 10x the price and 10x the hassle. If I want to knock something down from 300 yards away it's a lot more efficient for me to take a $300 Walmart Ruger American out and go bang. So why are we buying into the bigger is better idea? I suppose it's better if you sell them but personally I'd rather they invest their energy into making some really nice low speed quiet backyard guns than trying to match the ballistics of a 5-cent 22lr round.
Haven't we been doing the equivalent of arms races forever... bigger canons, bigger bombs, faster airplanes, etc. Why wreck a perfectly great recreational sport that normalizes a healthy fun activity and provides an entry point to shooting sports for many youth?
My 1000 yard 6.5 Creedmoor rig is a lot of fun to shoot but there aren't many ranges nearby. I get just as much pleasure from shooting my air pistol in the basement and I'd hate to see the regulators step in and diminish it.
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100 million deaths in 100 years = socialism. Humans are a tremendously flawed species. The ideas behind both communism and socialism aren't necessarily bad ideas, they're just not practical ideas to the human race as born out by history.
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Kally, I agree that single shot, low velocity (compared to powderburners) airguns represent nowhere near the danger in a bad guy’s hands...and no doubt one of the key reasons they aren’t a tool of choice by criminals. In fact, vastly more violent crimes are committed with knives, something which is much easier to acquire. Meanwhile we already have places I the US where airgun purchases are regulated like firearms, so unfortunately logic has very little bearing on the outcome. There is a small but vocal subset of our population that views all guns as bad and the effect shows up in inane legislation like that.
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Back to the original question. I have to agree that any light on airguns in the hallowed halls of our lawmakers is one more step toward the day I will be taxed in the form of an airgun permit. It used to be that in MA you did need the same license as for PBs. That ended back in the 80's. Unfortunately it's gonna happen again in places. It's when for some...not if.
I'd much rather we were never discussed at all. And certainly see any firearms maker bringing attention to my hobby as negative.
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Back to the original question. I have to agree that any light on airguns in the hallowed halls of our lawmakers is one more step toward the day I will be taxed in the form of an airgun permit. It used to be that in MA you did need the same license as for PBs. That ended back in the 80's. Unfortunately it's gonna happen again in places. It's when for some...not if.
I'd much rather we were never discussed at all. And certainly see any firearms maker bringing attention to my hobby as negative.
I agree. But for it to be a foreign manufacturer, meddling in local government, for the purpose of sales... While claiming to do it on behalf of “hunters”... Which hunters? Name them or their groups whom have asked this of you, Sig Sauer. Oh... That’s right. No one did...
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Back to the original question. I have to agree that any light on airguns in the hallowed halls of our lawmakers is one more step toward the day I will be taxed in the form of an airgun permit. It used to be that in MA you did need the same license as for PBs. That ended back in the 80's. Unfortunately it's gonna happen again in places. It's when for some...not if.
There is at least 1 state that requires a FOID to purchase an air gun and that is New Jersey. It's been like that for a very long time though, and it was for both air pistols and air rifles until recently. In 2013 they passed legislation allowing the purchase of an air rifle without a FOID or rifle license, and made it legal to hunt small game with (.177 & 22 cal. only). They still require a firearm/handgun license to purchase or possess an air pistol in NJ, and they are not legal to hunt.
Harry
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So I think, if we can get it in their heads that Big Bore PCPs are "Hunting Guns" we won't have a problem. The Feds couldn't careless as they are not Firearms, so we have to worry about Local Gov't which is a lot easier to show the truth too and educate. The more people using airguns the easier this will be. Local Reps tend to listen to their constitutes fairly well.
Remember my Red-Head, step-child remark?
Here's the main problem, there are politicians that want to ban any kind of rifle of any description.
There are States that may want to count them as firearms.
Then some of them realize people are using air rifles in towns and cities.
Then they realize airgunners have no lobbyists.
Then they decide they don't have much to lose if they target this segment.
Really though as I mentioned before, I am not worried about my State or those surrounding it.
But I am sure there are States and Cities or Towns where there it is a concern.
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Back to the original question. I have to agree that any light on airguns in the hallowed halls of our lawmakers is one more step toward the day I will be taxed in the form of an airgun permit. It used to be that in MA you did need the same license as for PBs. That ended back in the 80's. Unfortunately it's gonna happen again in places. It's when for some...not if.
I'd much rather we were never discussed at all. And certainly see any firearms maker bringing attention to my hobby as negative.
I agree. But for it to be a foreign manufacturer, meddling in local government, for the purpose of sales... While claiming to do it on behalf of “hunters”... Which hunters? Name them or their groups whom have asked this of you, Sig Sauer. Oh... That’s right. No one did...
Didn't cross my mind it was a foreign co. too. But I guarantee if they spent a dime on it they expect way more back if it passes.
I didn't know NJ was so crazy either.
Like someone said way back in this...have the fun while there is fun to be had.
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I think the good thing is AG are still not powerful enough to use by criminals
way too expensive and complicated, compared to firearms
The bad - we don't have huge manufacturers or NRA with deep pockets to lobby lawmakers
We should enjoy that - a lot of countries are really jealous and limited to small calibers and very low power
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I think the good thing is AG are still not powerful enough to use by criminals
way too expensive and complicated, compared to firearms
The bad - we don't have huge manufacturers or NRA with deep pockets to lobby lawmakers
We should enjoy that - a lot of countries are really jealous and limited to small calibers and very low power
Some gang tried to rob a bank here in Brazil. They had one AT44, one Sumatra, one HT80 and a few B19 variants and maybe 2 P17s. Oh boy, when the cops arrived with firearms, those criminals knew they had no chance