GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: CaptVideo on August 06, 2018, 07:59:58 PM
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I would consider myself a traditionalist in that I like a nice wood stock in a rifle style gun. I have a Mrod .25 and am looking for a .22 and am wondering if I should consider a bullpup style.
Here is my situation, bought the .25 to get groundhogs and raccoons at up to 40 yards. I'm also working on the proliferation of chipmunks, hosp and starlings, which are much closer (8-20 yards) and would plan to use the .22 for this. I have never held or shot a bullpup so I'm not sure what to expect.
Is it easier or more difficult to hold steady?
Does the shorter barrel affect the capabilities?
Does the shorter barrel affect the noise?
A smaller form factor, but many weigh as much or more than a traditional style rifle. I'm surprised by this.
Any other benefits or drawbacks I'm not considering?
I'm looking in the $1k area and would like lever cocking with adjustable power.
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Brocock Bantam might be what you want. It is kind of a cross between a rifle and a bull pup. I recently traded for one and like it pretty good so far.
Bob in WV
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I would consider myself a traditionalist in that I like a nice wood stock in a rifle style gun. I have a Mrod .25 and am looking for a .22 and am wondering if I should consider a bullpup style.
Here is my situation, bought the .25 to get groundhogs and raccoons at up to 40 yards. I'm also working on the proliferation of chipmunks, hosp and starlings, which are much closer (8-20 yards) and would plan to use the .22 for this. I have never held or shot a bullpup so I'm not sure what to expect.
Is it easier or more difficult to hold steady?
Does the shorter barrel affect the capabilities?
Does the shorter barrel affect the noise?
A smaller form factor, but many weigh as much or more than a traditional style rifle. I'm surprised by this.
Any other benefits or drawbacks I'm not considering?
I'm looking in the $1k area and would like lever cocking with adjustable power.
Bullpups are just rifles in a different dress, so not really shorter barrel, reservoir or lighter
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All my adult life until a very short time ago, I wouldn't even consider a bullpup. But recently I have found an affinity for smaller (shorter) rifles and that is a bullpup's niche. They do take some getting used to, but at least in my instance it wasn't very difficult to adapt.
There aren't many sacrifices in specs--barrel length, air capacity, power, etc are very similar between rifles and bullpups. Its really dependent upon models being compared. There are short, light bullpups and there are longer, heavier bullpups. Same for rifles.
However...on many bullpups a "perfect" trigger can take a lot of work to achieve desired results and may be all but impossible depending on model and your definition of "good" or "perfect" trigger.
Look for the right deal and buy used, if you like it, keep it. If you don't, you can likely sell and recover most of your investment. You may be the type that bullpups just are not a good fit, or you may love them.....good luck!
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Brocock Bantam might be what you want. It is kind of a cross between a rifle and a bull pup. I recently traded for one and like it pretty good so far.
Bob in WV
I second Bob’s recommendation as I have a Brocock Compatto which is the little sibling of the Bantam, and they are considered a semi bullpup. Easiest, most comfortable rifle to shoulder I have tried. I think for your hunting purposes a bullpup style rifle will fit your needs, maybe even a Marauder pistol.
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Just MY opinion but I've got 2 bullpups and for ME they are much more difficult to hold steady than a conventional rifle. Bullboss and a Kral Puncher Breaker. I like both of them and they're both very accurate IF they're fired on target. I personally wouldn't buy another one. MUCH easier for ME to shoot a regular gun. Most of my shooting is paper punching off a bench so it's not a big deal. Just wouldn't buy another. Good luck with your decision!
Ed
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Like you, I also would have said I'm more of a traditionalist with an affinity to wood stock traditional style rifles. When I bought my first airguns, there was no way I could wrap my head around the idea of a bullpup. But after more and more time behind the trigger for varminting, it started to become clear that shorter length rifles would be more ideal for ease of maneuvering. I got over my initial dislike of bullpups in the beginning of the year and bought a walnut stock Wildcat (one of the deciding factors was that the Wildcat didn't have the appearance of a Home Depot 2x4 with the action embedded in it). Just like you, I never shot or handled a bullpup before purchasing which made the buy feel a little risky. Fortunately when it arrived, all my intrepidations went out the window. I found that my bullpup was easier to hold, and hold steady even for long periods of time. I like that a good chunk of the rifles weight is close to your body which helps the fore-end feel lighter so it's easier to point at a target. As another mentioned, you generally aren't losing much barrel length because the barrel is just set further back closer to the butt, so concerns with overall capability and sound are pretty moot. One thing I like about bullpups is that you can still run a moderator on the end and you'll still have a relatively compact package, versus adding a moderator to an already long rifle and ending up with something close to musket length (say a Maximus with an additional 6 5 inch TKO moderator). Hopefully you have a little more info to consider now, and good luck with your search for a new rifle.
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I would consider myself a traditionalist in that I like a nice wood stock in a rifle style gun. I have a Mrod .25 and am looking for a .22 and am wondering if I should consider a bullpup style.
Here is my situation, bought the .25 to get groundhogs and raccoons at up to 40 yards. I'm also working on the proliferation of chipmunks, hosp and starlings, which are much closer (8-20 yards) and would plan to use the .22 for this. I have never held or shot a bullpup so I'm not sure what to expect.
Is it easier or more difficult to hold steady?
A little bit more difficult. Mainly you need to use higher scope mount which is not disadvantage only for large distance shooting 50+
Does the shorter barrel affect the capabilities?
Does the shorter barrel affect the noise?
YES shorter barrel may increase noise and decrease power but obviosly the barrel has the same length
A smaller form factor, but many weigh as much or more than a traditional style rifle. I'm surprised by this.
Any other benefits or drawbacks I'm not considering?
A lot of bullpups have fixed barrel to air reservoir too hard what can affect POI when air pressure is changing. But commonly is it easy to cut free. Also it is necessary mainly for rifle 50+ distances.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=128618.msg1263775#msg1263775
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=133115.msg1323717#msg1323717 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=133115.msg1323717#msg1323717)
I'm looking in the $1k area and would like lever cocking with adjustable power.
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I would go for an Air Arms S510 Carbine.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-s510-xtra-fac-sidelever-pcp-carbine?m=2280 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-s510-xtra-fac-sidelever-pcp-carbine?m=2280)
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I am already using "AA S510 carbine .177" for a ten years at 18FPE. I just had to change valve popped one time.
Be Carrefour because Increasing oh hammer strike may decrease accuracy. Also band between barrel shroud and air reservoir is better to cut free.
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I bought a used edgun very nice you might consider a cricket or a P-15.
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Any chance you can locate any local GTA members who might own a bull pup? If so, you could try their gun possibly before you buy one.
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I would consider myself a traditionalist in that I like a nice wood stock in a rifle style gun. I have a Mrod .25 and am looking for a .22 and am wondering if I should consider a bullpup style.
Here is my situation, bought the .25 to get groundhogs and raccoons at up to 40 yards. I'm also working on the proliferation of chipmunks, hosp and starlings, which are much closer (8-20 yards) and would plan to use the .22 for this. I have never held or shot a bullpup so I'm not sure what to expect.
Is it easier or more difficult to hold steady?
Does the shorter barrel affect the capabilities?
Does the shorter barrel affect the noise?
A smaller form factor, but many weigh as much or more than a traditional style rifle. I'm surprised by this.
Any other benefits or drawbacks I'm not considering?
I'm looking in the $1k area and would like lever cocking with adjustable power.
For me bullpups are easier to hold steady, the balance is more towards rear so if you find long guns easier to hold it is unlikely that bullpups work for you. Barrel length is usually the same as it is in normal rifles, if it is short (like on some 20" bullpups) it will reduce air efficiency and increase noise level. For short range shooting bullpups have a problem as the scope sits higher up above the barrel line. As an example I have my backyard pup zeroed for 20 yards to reach 45 yards and at 8 yards I need to aim about an inch above the point I want to hit. Vulcan, FX Wildcat and Priest would be nice pup choices for your needs.
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I would go for one of each, or do like I did and do three or four of each ::)
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I would consider myself a traditionalist in that I like a nice wood stock in a rifle style gun. I have a Mrod .25 and am looking for a .22 and am wondering if I should consider a bullpup style.
Here is my situation, bought the .25 to get groundhogs and raccoons at up to 40 yards. I'm also working on the proliferation of chipmunks, hosp and starlings, which are much closer (8-20 yards) and would plan to use the .22 for this. I have never held or shot a bullpup so I'm not sure what to expect.
Is it easier or more difficult to hold steady?
Does the shorter barrel affect the capabilities?
Does the shorter barrel affect the noise?
A smaller form factor, but many weigh as much or more than a traditional style rifle. I'm surprised by this.
Any other benefits or drawbacks I'm not considering?
I'm looking in the $1k area and would like lever cocking with adjustable power.
For me bullpups are easier to hold steady, the balance is more towards rear so if you find long guns easier to hold it is unlikely that bullpups work for you. Barrel length is usually the same as it is in normal rifles, if it is short (like on some 20" bullpups) it will reduce air efficiency and increase noise level. For short range shooting bullpups have a problem as the scope sits higher up above the barrel line. As an example I have my backyard pup zeroed for 20 yards to reach 45 yards and at 8 yards I need to aim about an inch above the point I want to hit. Vulcan, FX Wildcat and Priest would be nice pup choices for your needs.
That is the one reason I don't like Pups for hunting,...fine for shooting at known distances but when you get shots with a wide variation with the scope hight you gotta always be on your toes and make sure you remember you hold overs and unders,
when hunting with variable distances I want a gun with the scope as close to the bore as possible.
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https://youtu.be/gYaUN4qJ5D4
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I always like traditional rifles or so I thought until I bought a bullpup. Like others have said you really arent sacrificing too much (as far as performance) by going with a bullpup. I do find that they are harder to hold steady than long rifles also but I think the compact size is worth the trade off.
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That is the one reason I don't like Pups for hunting,...fine for shooting at known distances but when you get shots with a wide variation with the scope hight you gotta always be on your toes and make sure you remember you hold overs and unders,
when hunting with variable distances I want a gun with the scope as close to the bore as possible.
That's why you just buy one of these and never worry about it again....
https://www.amazon.com/HHA-Speed-Dial-Cross-Mount/dp/B004UOXLB2 (https://www.amazon.com/HHA-Speed-Dial-Cross-Mount/dp/B004UOXLB2)
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That is the one reason I don't like Pups for hunting,...fine for shooting at known distances but when you get shots with a wide variation with the scope hight you gotta always be on your toes and make sure you remember you hold overs and unders,
when hunting with variable distances I want a gun with the scope as close to the bore as possible.
That's why you just buy one of these and never worry about it again....
https://www.amazon.com/HHA-Speed-Dial-Cross-Mount/dp/B004UOXLB2 (https://www.amazon.com/HHA-Speed-Dial-Cross-Mount/dp/B004UOXLB2)
Nope, not gonna help and actually will make things worse,...we are trying to get the scope closer to the bore not higher ;)
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Nope, not gonna help and actually will make things worse,...we are trying to get the scope closer to the bore not higher ;)
That's odd, worked great on my Kral and on my buddy's Wildcat...
Every bullpup I've seen needs high/extra high rings or a riser, so why can't this take up some of that height? You know, medium rings and the optimizer... No need to make the scope sit higher.
It also allows you to dial in a set point for any yardage you choose, to take care of hold issues.
I wasn't saying this would lower the scope to bore height, I was saying it would take care of the inch holdover at close range.
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
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That is the one reason I don't like Pups for hunting,...fine for shooting at known distances but when you get shots with a wide variation with the scope hight you gotta always be on your toes and make sure you remember you hold overs and unders,
when hunting with variable distances I want a gun with the scope as close to the bore as possible.
That's why you just buy one of these and never worry about it again....
https://www.amazon.com/HHA-Speed-Dial-Cross-Mount/dp/B004UOXLB2 (https://www.amazon.com/HHA-Speed-Dial-Cross-Mount/dp/B004UOXLB2)
Nope, not gonna help and actually will make things worse,...we are trying to get the scope closer to the bore not higher ;)
That's my primary peeve with bullpups, & the main reason I never kept the few i tried. How hard can it be to design a bullpup with a rail thats not a half mile over the barrel? Is all that height REALLY necessary to mount an optic? Why?
The absolute worst thing about those high rails, if one need to keep the objective of the scope as close to the bore as possible them you're limited to using scopes with small objective lenses and low mounts. That limits the variety of optics one has to choose from as well as mounting systems.
If ever i get another bullpup, the first thing I'll be doing to it would be to remove the factory rail (most likely the barrel bands will have to go too) and have a new low rail mounted. There's quite a few nice long .25" rail extensions available these days to choose from.
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
In a hunting scenario sometimes the game won't be willing to wait for you to consult your phone to get your holdover.
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
In a hunting scenario sometimes the game won't be willing to wait for you to consult your phone to get your holdover.
Unless you are running through the woods it's not hard to get your distances, know your holdover for those distance. Now if you have trouble with your memory this won't work for you.
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IMO Bull pups are much more hold sensitive then rifles, so you have to hone your shot a little bit. It's much easier with such a short gun in your hand for you to pull the shot. VERY easy. I would suggest a Hatsan Flash Pup in .25 or .22 for what you're looking to do. About 6 pounds unscoped. I have the .177 and it's a dime size group at 30 yards. I can take it to 40 without even thinking. The higher calibers would probably be better to an even farther distance...
You really should try one, first. I happen to luv em for brush work and tight quarters pest control.
Anyway, I lost a shoot out with my FX Wildcat in .22 to a Brocock Bantam bottled gun in .22 recently, so I KNOW those are good guns and I think tick all the boxes you needed...
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They are short. Have a longer barrel than you'd expect becasue of how they were designed, but the main thing if that they're short for very little ballistic disavantage from being short.
Lot of folks love them...think they just love the style of them, as they really don't do anything that a rifle of equal quality/expense can do other than be manuviered around in tight spaces. Doesn't bothere me, foulks do tend to really like one style or another...."black rifle", traditaional wood-n-steel sporter....thumbhole stocks...whatever.
Which is why in militarty terms, they are popular. Most of the "boots on the ground" fighting in the last 60-65 years has been of the close up and personal type (jungles/urban settings). I'dcertainly prefer a short handy rifle for house-to-house type fighting (or that thick jungle of Vietnam). Do notice that the guys specifically tasked for long range shooting tend to be issued a different rifle.
BUT, in militry use, they are mostly sem'-auto/full auto, so they aren't cycling a rould from the shoulder by hand (just stuffing in a mag. evern 30-40 shots).
We "we ain't them", do notice that in the upper levesl of compition, the majority of the airguns tend to a "sameness". Now the guys that do get to that level are certainly not going to keep what doesn't work for them....such a small difference between win-place-shot, tose guys would tap on the barrel with a blood dipped chicken bone, in a graveyard, during a full moon if they thought it would gain them a few points.
So I'm goingto have to belive certain styles have evolved for reasons. Can generally tell a 10 meter rifle from a top field target rifle from a bench rest rifle from a silo. rifle (each pretty well made for a specific task) ...and there is very likely a good reason for the "sameness" of features.
Now in my case, I'd rather have a safe full of bullpup PCP's than a case of VD.
At least I could sell the bullpups.
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
In a hunting scenario sometimes the game won't be willing to wait for you to consult your phone to get your holdover.
BINGO :)
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
Correct,
as I mentioned not a problem if you are shooting at knowing distances with the info,
but if you hunting and your pup is zeroed at 25 yards and a wild boar comes out at 8 yards you don't really have the time to check your notes :) :) ...things can happen fast and you need to take that shot fast, even to just try remember your holdovers in a high adrenaline situation ain't easy so I rather carry a gun with the scope as low as possible.
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
In a hunting scenario sometimes the game won't be willing to wait for you to consult your phone to get your holdover.
Unless you are running through the woods it's not hard to get your distances, know your holdover for those distance. Now if you have trouble with your memory this won't work for you.
Yup, and a lot of people hunt that way. Pushing through the bush. In those scenarios you could encounter an animal 50 yards out, or 7 yards in front of you. And its for those close encounters where that extra height turns out to be a pain. I used to just turn the gun sideways.
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Thanks to all for your comments and plusses and minuses. I am going to do my best to find a bullpup to try, but from what everyone says I think I'm probably leaning towards a traditional rifle again.
"I would go for an Air Arms S510 Carbine."
Nomadic, this is on my list
Gary
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That's my primary peeve with bullpups, & the main reason I never kept the few i tried. How hard can it be to design a bullpup with a rail thats not a half mile over the barrel? Is all that height REALLY necessary to mount an optic? Why?
The absolute worst thing about those high rails, if one need to keep the objective of the scope as close to the bore as possible them you're limited to using scopes with small objective lenses and low mounts. That limits the variety of optics one has to choose from as well as mounting systems.
If ever i get another bullpup, the first thing I'll be doing to it would be to remove the factory rail (most likely the barrel bands will have to go too) and have a new low rail mounted. There's quite a few nice long .25" rail extensions available these days to choose from.
Your cheek weld is on the receiver(where the scope mounts on a normal rifle), so if you lower the scope, you won't be able to see through it...
I don't think anybody here actually understands how the Optimizer works, oh well.
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We understand how it works,...fact is that it still wont help on a fast paced hunting situation.
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I don't think anybody here actually understands how the Optimizer works, oh well.
That's probably because the Optimizer is a crossbow accessory. I just looked into it and it seems nifty. My 5 minute understanding of the product is that you need to range your target though. I don't know how this helps a situation where the distance is unknown (which is what I thought you were implying in your original reply to Nomadic Pirate). Now, if you have to range your target to make the proper adjustment to the Optimizer, why wouldn't sometime just stick that data in a ballistic calculator or look at a dope chart? I think the product works for archery because they use simplified sights/reticles, but I'm not sure how it benefits airgunners with the typical optics we use. Then there's the issue with creating a new range tape for the Optimizer because their included tapes are for bolts traveling 410 FPS or slower.
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Having said all that,.....if I had the money to buy an Edgun RM5 in .25 I would do it right now :) :)
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We understand how it works,...fact is that it still wont help on a fast paced hunting situation.
Maybe someday you'll actually try one, until then, it's just another opinion... It probably isn't really needed for the 30' club anyway ;D
That's probably because the Optimizer is a crossbow accessory. I just looked into it and it seems nifty. My 5 minute understanding of the product is that you need to range your target though. I don't know how this helps a situation where the distance is unknown (which is what I thought you were implying in your original reply to Nomadic Pirate). Now, if you have to range your target to make the proper adjustment to the Optimizer, why wouldn't sometime just stick that data in a ballistic calculator or look at a dope chart? I think the product works for archery because they use simplified sights/reticles, but I'm not sure how it benefits airgunners with the typical optics we use. Then there's the issue with creating a new range tape for the Optimizer because their included tapes are for bolts traveling 410 FPS or slower.
They use scopes on crossbows... How do you normally range your target? It comes with blank tapes to mark all your own ranges. It then takes one to two seconds to turn the wheel to the range you are shooting. It works by canting the the scope up or down, that makes it so you can keep your horizontal line on target for more accurate windage instead of being a few stadia lines down and connecting the dots.
Mine is set from 40 to 108 yards because that's what I normally shoot and it still has 3/4 of the tape left for longer shots. I'm not trying to sell anything, just trying to share an awesome product that has made shooting even funner, fixes the close range holdover and makes hunting more humane.
Sorry for sniping the thread, back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Zero chance I spend 170 bucks on that kine gadget, not gonna help me when there's no time but react.
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If you make it to the states, you can try out mine. ;)
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
Correct,
as I mentioned not a problem if you are shooting at knowing distances with the info,
but if you hunting and your pup is zeroed at 25 yards and a wild boar comes out at 8 yards you don't really have the time to check your notes :) :) ...things can happen fast and you need to take that shot fast, even to just try remember your holdovers in a high adrenaline situation ain't easy so I rather carry a gun with the scope as low as possible.
I have much of it committed to memory and use my notes to refresh before going out so if it a close shot like 8 yds I know I need to be 3 mils over and shooting at a boar there is some room for error. Anyways works great for me.
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
Correct,
as I mentioned not a problem if you are shooting at knowing distances with the info,
but if you hunting and your pup is zeroed at 25 yards and a wild boar comes out at 8 yards you don't really have the time to check your notes :) :) ...things can happen fast and you need to take that shot fast, even to just try remember your holdovers in a high adrenaline situation ain't easy so I rather carry a gun with the scope as low as possible.
I have much of it committed to memory and use my notes to refresh before going out so if it a close shot like 8 yds I know I need to be 3 mils over and shooting at a boar there is some room for error. Anyways works great for me.
Let me go out on a limb and take a wild guess,....
You never been hunting Wild boar in thick jungle settings with a .25 PCP ?
Also, brain shooting a Wild Hog there's no room for error, on the contrary you better be very precise with your shot,
Friend of mine from the Big island got charged a month or so ago after he bothched the shot, he fent the boar away by hitting it with the barrel and shooting again at the same time, he hit it so hard his sumatra barrel is bent now :) :)
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Maybe I am confused about the problem with holdover on a bullpup. But wouldn't shooting your gun at various distances tell you what you need to know? When I got my Bullboss I simply shot mine at varying distances from 5 yds to 50 yds, I then recorded this information in a document on my phone, holdover and magification used at each distance. Range your surroundings, quick look at document to see magnification and holdover. Unless you don't have a mildot scope on it, why would this not be adequate?
Correct,
as I mentioned not a problem if you are shooting at knowing distances with the info,
but if you hunting and your pup is zeroed at 25 yards and a wild boar comes out at 8 yards you don't really have the time to check your notes :) :) ...things can happen fast and you need to take that shot fast, even to just try remember your holdovers in a high adrenaline situation ain't easy so I rather carry a gun with the scope as low as possible.
I have much of it committed to memory and use my notes to refresh before going out so if it a close shot like 8 yds I know I need to be 3 mils over and shooting at a boar there is some room for error. Anyways works great for me.
Let me go out on a limb and take a wild guess,....
You never been hunting Wild boar in thick jungle settings with a .25 PCP ?
Also, brain shooting a Wild Hog there's no room for error, on the contrary you better be very precise with your shot,
Friend of mine from the Big island got charged a month or so ago after he bothched the shot, he fent the boar away by hitting it with the barrel and shooting again at the same time, he hit it so hard his sumatra barrel is bent now :) :)
he fent the boar away by hitting it with the barrel and shooting again at the same time, he hit it so hard his sumatra barrel is bent now :) :)
In the cartoons porky the pig never had issues with real guns. Stupid air rifles. Didnt see that one comming did he.
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Good story but kind of irrelevant to the discussion unless you're going to tell me that all that happened because he didn't have his scope low enough to the barrel. Being startled by a boar and subsequently missing or botching shot doesn't have anything to do with knowing your range and hold over. As I said it works great for me.
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Good story but kind of irrelevant to the discussion unless you're going to tell me that all that happened because he didn't have his scope low enough to the barrel. Being startled by a boar and subsequently missing or botching shot doesn't have anything to do with knowing your range and hold over. As I said it works great for me.
Completely missing the point there right ? :) :)
The story is about your claim that with Wild boar hunting there's supposed to be some room for error so absolute precision is not needed, ....consequences for a bad shot can turn out real bad in this kind of hunting, A little different then hunting suirrels :) :)
Since your experience is obviously zero, I'm telling you that I personally prefer to carry a gun with the scope as close as possible to the bore so I can make that shot in real hunting situations,
Hunted with Pups for years and experianced myself the shortcomings of the High scope.
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So you are telling me that there's NO room for error in killing a boar? Ok got it.
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So you are telling me that there's NO room for error in killing a boar? Ok got it.
If you want that hog, or any other animal for that matter, to drop DRT & die immediately, no there isn't any room for error.
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Hunted with Pups for years and experianced myself the shortcomings of the High scope.
So, if you're hunting in a dense forest where the majority of your shots will be around 10 yards, wouldn't it be an advantage to be able to dial the Optimizer to 10 yards BEFOREHAND and not deal with any holdover? Wouldn't that lessen the chance of error? Then if you spot game at a further distance without them seeing you, you can range and dial it accordingly.
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Hunted with Pups for years and experianced myself the shortcomings of the High scope.
So, if you're hunting in a dense forest where the majority of your shots will be around 10 yards, wouldn't it be an advantage to be able to dial the Optimizer to 10 yards BEFOREHAND and not deal with any holdover? Wouldn't that lessen the chance of error? Then if you spot game at a further distance without them seeing you, you can range and dial it accordingly.
Wrong,
the wast majority of my shots are at 25-30 yards so that's where my scopes are dialed in, but I had shots at 8-5 yards and that is where the scope closest to the bore shines compared to the High scopes on pups.
I love how compact Pups are (some) love how the carry on a one point sling and they are sexy, but if you can't carry a 40-45" gun because it's to thick to manuver then you can't take a shot either,
.....so in the end I rather carry a carbine then a Pup, balancing Pros and Cons for me the carbine comes ahead.
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Hunted with Pups for years and experianced myself the shortcomings of the High scope.
So, if you're hunting in a dense forest where the majority of your shots will be around 10 yards, wouldn't it be an advantage to be able to dial the Optimizer to 10 yards BEFOREHAND and not deal with any holdover? Wouldn't that lessen the chance of error? Then if you spot game at a further distance without them seeing you, you can range and dial it accordingly.
Game not spotting you past a certain distance is one thing. Game standing still in the same position or even remaining in the same area even if they didn't spot you, for long enough that you have the time to make adjustments, is something entirely different.
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Wrong,
the wast majority of my shots are at 25-30 yards so that's where my scopes are dialed in, but I had shots at 8-5 yards and that is where the scope closest to the bore shines compared to the High scopes on pups.
I love how compact Pups are (some) love how the carry on a one point sling and they are sexy, but if you can't carry a 40-45" gun because it's to thick to manuver then you can't take a shot either,
.....so in the end I rather carry a carbine then a Pup, balancing Pros and Cons for me the carbine comes ahead.
Got it.
Game not spotting you past a certain distance is one thing. Game standing still in the same position or even remaining in the same area even if they didn't spot you, for long enough that you have the time to make adjustments, is something entirely different.
It takes literally one to two seconds to turn the wheel to your range mark. I guess game(small and large) isn't as twitchy here.
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Wrong,
the wast majority of my shots are at 25-30 yards so that's where my scopes are dialed in, but I had shots at 8-5 yards and that is where the scope closest to the bore shines compared to the High scopes on pups.
I love how compact Pups are (some) love how the carry on a one point sling and they are sexy, but if you can't carry a 40-45" gun because it's to thick to manuver then you can't take a shot either,
.....so in the end I rather carry a carbine then a Pup, balancing Pros and Cons for me the carbine comes ahead.
Got it.
Game not spotting you past a certain distance is one thing. Game standing still in the same position or even remaining in the same area even if they didn't spot you, for long enough that you have the time to make adjustments, is something entirely different.
It takes literally one to two seconds to turn the wheel to your range mark. I guess game(small and large) isn't as twitchy here.
Or dangerous, a wild boar can easily gut you and they move bloody fast. At close range either you take a shot immediately or run for your life.
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Yeah, I was talking about game at distance that hasn't noticed you yet. You'd have to read my previous post.
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Bullpups aren't the only rifles with high sight lines....and folks have been handling that situation. Mostly just testing/knowing where to hold for the range (which is likely BETTER with a old-school range card of actual observed results than a ballistic program)
So while I'm not a bull pup fan, I certainly won't "gig" them for the same high sight line that so many AirForce shooters seem to be able to over come.
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Just to get back on track. Bullpups with elevated rails aren't everybody's preference.
I like the Hubens. It's over the barrel a ways, but a whole lot lower than guns like the FX Impact or Evanix Max
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I have a bull pup, still on the fence, since prior to that I preferred "carbeans" and guess I still do.
That gadget that acts like adjustable scope mounts, does have its place with the long range hunters though.
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I believe if you usually shoot 20 yards or longer, a high scope mount would be an advantage, as it requires less holdover on longer distance. You can use ballistic software like chairgun and put in different scope heights, with the first zero around 20 yards, and you will see the second zero will reach further out, and the bullet flight raising above the two zero ranges, will be relative small.
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I believe if you usually shoot 20 yards or longer, a high scope mount would be an advantage, as it requires less holdover on longer distance. You can use ballistic software like chairgun and put in different scope heights, with the first zero around 20 yards, and you will see the second zero will reach further out, and the bullet flight raising above the two zero ranges, will be relative small.
That's correct, if you don't occasionally shoot at very short range the high sight line is actually an advantage.