GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Bryan Heimann on July 05, 2018, 08:01:46 PM
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I have two breakbarrels I can depend on, every time- a fully tune XS28M, basically a $350 Chinese breakbarrel, and my Stoeger X3- a 4 fpe air rifle with a lube tune. It takes so much concentration and practice to get anything else to shoot well, I just don't have fun with them.
To be fair, I used to practice in the back yard every single day. I also used to have time to tinker and tune. But these days... i will put it to you like this. Today was the first time I shot my springers past 6 meters in weeks, probably months. The best I could do with my remington express was ten shots inside about 2" at 20 meters. My new daisy 1100- lets just say, according to my current abilities, it is a ten yard gun. Fun, but only as far as I can drill my 1.5" spinners. Both guns have new scopes that, while cheap, are good.
I don't see myself buying another breakbarrel, unless it's been tuned by a pro, until I retire. At least until I find myslef in a 9-5 job and live in an area I can shoot every day. For comparison, my Crosman 2100 easily hits a 1" target from a rest at the same 20 meters every time with the cheapest pellets- pointed Crosman- about a penny apiece. The XS28M is still hold sensitive, but not as bad, and I am well acquainted with it. I can expect to hit thumb tacks at 20m at will, just using open sights. It is also slinging a .25 pellet with authority, so if i nick a thumb tack it's coming out. Realistically, that doesn't require me to shoot dime sized groups. Plus I am shooting JSB Kings in it. If i can use ammo from the store shelf, I will.
Anyway, can anybody relate to this? I love airguns and I loved tinkering with them when I had time, but I don't anymore. Now, I just want out of the box performance. I might just unload my springers in favor of some single shot multi pump and CO2 rifles. I had so much fun with the 2100 today, and it is so light and handy. Mine doesn't shoot quite as hard as the 2100 my neighbor had when i was a kid, but I love it. I have it zeroed on 12 pumps, open sights. I'll probably grab it first when squirrel season starts. I can't wait.
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I go through cycles. I'll eventually narrow them down to one or two favorites in each platform.
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I'm the exact opposite. I love my springers. Both of them produce outstanding groupings. I very seldom shoot my pcp. I don't want to keep pumping it up.
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I tend to rotate through my airguns. Right now, I'm on a SSP and MSP kick. The 880, 2100, P17, and LGR have been my best friends the last couple weeks. They are all fun and quiet to shoot indoors when it is too hot and the bugs are too bad to want to go outside.
The only springer I like to shoot on a regular basis is my old chinese B3-3. I've got others, but none are as consistent every day out of the safe as that one is.
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... can anybody relate to this?
Now, I just want out of the box performance.
I own one springer; Walther Terrus 177.
I got it "just for fun." I like the simplicity and minimalism of a springer. I'm shooting it now as a project "Just how well can I shoot this modestly priced ($149) springer?" I shoot it on days when that is what I want.
The easiest, most accurate and quiet shooting I do is the Hammerli 850 177 CO². I can shoot .5" groups all day long at 25 yds; no pumping, no strain, no flyers, just fun to shoot spinners and whatever. For challenge, I just shoot smaller and smaller targets at longer ranges. I get 150-200 shots before I bulk refill; easy, fun, cheap.
The Hammerli truly is "out of the box performance."
For even more challenge I'm beginning to shoot Hunter Field Target. That's a whole 'nuther ballgame. So far, anything like "out of the box performance" has been frustratingly elusive. 🙂
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I read your lament and feel your pain. Misery loves company, and we suffer together, but separately. Last time I shot my 48 was almost six months ago. I chased that thing around the bullseye for half a year. With this gun I excel at failing miserably. Cussed two wonderful scopes as defective that now, on PCPs, shoot lights out. One day I'm going to put it tight in that 8-inch vise and see if it will shoot in the same place twice. Honest to goodness, I shot that 48 with greater precision with the factory spring in three pieces than it does now with the Vortec kit in it. I do not miss my investment of time and effort, only to have that gun gleefully mock my existence. I spit in its general direction.
Yet, every long bio-break I sit there, romancing that stainless finish HW97K in the AofA catalog. In .20. Krale, raise your prices you enabler! Some lessons are never learned. Like a moth to the flame...
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My basement range is only 17 yards and too short for PCPs, so I shoot break barrels more often for its challenge. I believe the skills can transfer to longer range for PcP, at least I hope
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I had a heck of a time trying to tame something as basic as a late model 880. It’s now one of the most accurate pumpers I have but is far from stock. Just about everything on it has been modified. I found out later it is about as close to having a springer as a guy can get without actually owning one. Never even considered buying a springer after that experience. My go to guns are Dan’s & Benji’s & as long as I do my part they are deadly accurate. So much so that head shots at lizards out to 20 yrds are common place with a scout mount.
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I have a couple hatsan 135s that I plink with when I want more recoil than my wingshot gives me :)
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I went through a couple of years when I just wasn't interested in any new (to me, since I like vintage) guns. Up until about a year ago, I remained a bit meh.
I am now back to the point that althought I am not actively seeking any particular gun, I am once again interested in buying really good springers.
AND.....am once again interested in finding a good target model to buy!
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Ah, I feel your pain. I stumbled in to this whole abyss unknowingly a few years ago when my wife would not let me poison some squirrels invading her garden.
I have been shooting for decades but my last experiences with air guns on a daily basis was a Benjamin .22 pump rifle I bought in the early eighties. Powerful for its time and super accurate, would take a large crow out of the top of the tallest tree. Lost track of it some years ago.
Back to the 2000's and the squirrel problem. No poison, in the city at the time and can't use .22lr, ok, going to Walmart. Ruger Blackhawk Elite .177 with scope for $110, looks intimidating and feels solid, 1200fps. Get it home and I can't hit sh*t with it! First thought is it's a cheap Chinese POS, which it likely is, but that's not the problem. Did some reading and learned the Artillery Hold, blah blah blah and actually got decent with it. It is a love, hate thing. I decided that I hate shooting it but I love what it has taught me about trigger control. Every few months I would pull it out a go a few rounds with it after reading more, taking it apart, tweeking it.
So after all this time and coming to the understanding that there are better break barrel guns that are easier to shoot and all that, I don't want to shoot one anymore. These guns are mainly for enthusiasts and people who don't have a lot of money to get seriously in to air guns. I'm shopping for my first PCP.
One day I'm going to put it tight in that 8-inch vise and see if it will shoot in the same place twice.
I bet if you do this it will shoot its worst group ever. These things hate being held tight!
While shopping for the new rifle I have been reading more and more on springers as well and ended up having a huge revelation. One of the airgun channels on youtube was talking about the screws loosening up every twenty shots or so on a springer. I started checking mine at certain shot counts and sure enough they were doing exactly that, but only one of the side screws and the one Phillips under the trigger. For what ever reason one doesn't come loose. This week after re tightening them every 20-30 shots the gun shot its first dime size group at 25 yds, three shots and I stopped as not to ruin the moment.
Through all this cr*p and all this time, I've conquered ..... and now I'm done, lol.
BTW, the 1200fps is with alloy pellets, of which I can only get 3 or so on paper at 25 yds, going so fast they are highly unstable.
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Bryan, I can completely relate to your situation. I have shot Benjamin springers for a few years. They've been driving me nuts. I never figured out whether it was me or the gun that produced frustrating performance on any given day. There were some good days where I had 9/10 in a 1 1/2 inch group at 30 yards. But the next day it was all over the place again. I cleaned, I tuned (best I know), used careful scientific method (one variable at a time) in order to figure out where my problem was. Once I had a chrony it helped me a lot but I still wasn't able to pinpoint the reason for groups that were just too big on many days. Pesting was hit and miss with these rifles except for sub 10 yard shots at rats. Not nice for the prey, and not nice for me either.
iAll changed once I convinced myself that I take my hobby to the next level with a PCP. Now, if things are not as expected, it is almost always me. The gun is so much better than I will ever be. Yes, it was a lot of money, not just the rifle but also the support equipment, but I really enjoy shooting now. The springers are collecting dust. I just use the 177 for the occasional close range rat pesting at the chicken coop. I have no remorse for spending so much. Problem solved.
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I shoot my springers far more often than my PCPs, and every time I do they put a big smile on my face. Accuracy at 25 yards or less with my hw97k and pro sport consistently matches that of my PCPs.
I can’t imagine ever getting burned out on shooting springers.
R
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Ah, I feel your pain. I stumbled in to this whole abyss unknowingly a few years ago when my wife would not let me poison some squirrels invading her garden.
I have been shooting for decades but my last experiences with air guns on a daily basis was a Benjamin .22 pump rifle I bought in the early eighties. Powerful for its time and super accurate, would take a large crow out of the top of the tallest tree. Lost track of it some years ago.
Back to the 2000's and the squirrel problem. No poison, in the city at the time and can't use .22lr, ok, going to Walmart. Ruger Blackhawk Elite .177 with scope for $110, looks intimidating and feels solid, 1200fps. Get it home and I can't hit sh*t with it! First thought is it's a cheap Chinese POS, which it likely is, but that's not the problem. Did some reading and learned the Artillery Hold, blah blah blah and actually got decent with it. It is a love, hate thing. I decided that I hate shooting it but I love what it has taught me about trigger control. Every few months I would pull it out a go a few rounds with it after reading more, taking it apart, tweeking it.
So after all this time and coming to the understanding that there are better break barrel guns that are easier to shoot and all that, I don't want to shoot one anymore. These guns are mainly for enthusiasts and people who don't have a lot of money to get seriously in to air guns. I'm shopping for my first PCP.
One day I'm going to put it tight in that 8-inch vise and see if it will shoot in the same place twice.
I bet if you do this it will shoot its worst group ever. These things hate being held tight!
While shopping for the new rifle I have been reading more and more on springers as well and ended up having a huge revelation. One of the airgun channels on youtube was talking about the screws loosening up every twenty shots or so on a springer. I started checking mine at certain shot counts and sure enough they were doing exactly that, but only one of the side screws and the one Phillips under the trigger. For what ever reason one doesn't come loose. This week after re tightening them every 20-30 shots the gun shot its first dime size group at 25 yds, three shots and I stopped as not to ruin the moment.
Through all this cr*p and all this time, I've conquered ..... and now I'm done, lol.
BTW, the 1200fps is with alloy pellets, of which I can only get 3 or so on paper at 25 yds, going so fast they are highly unstable.
Vibra-Tite VC-3 will cure those loose screws and still let you snug them later if they really need to be.
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Vibra-Tite VC-3 will cure those loose screws and still let you snug them later if they really need to be.
Interesting stuff. Working in Automotive 40 years and seen all types of thredlocker but nothing like that, thanks.
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I am not a fan of " TWANGERS," either. I have owned only a few & it seems like each one is so different to shoot. I should put a label on each one describing how to shoot it. i.e. Artillery hold, hold tightly, rest on bags , etc. I despise buying anything brand new that needs to be worked on, & many of these rifles need work right out of the box !
I do have a couple that are somewhat fun to shoot & pretty accurate. Not a single one of them can compare with my Sheridans, when it comes to consistent accuracy. Every Sheridan I own, [ & I own a lot ] is accurate & a pleasure to shoot.
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Bryan, I have to be brutally honest here. This is just my humble opinion, nothing more. Every rifle you mentioned comes from one country. Have you ever shot a well tuned Weihrauch, Walter, Air Arms, or FWB springer?
If the only vehicle you ever drove was a Yugo, how would you feel about driving? It's kinda like that. Get in the seat of a Mercedes or Jaguar and take a long drive. You'll discover that no matter how well cared for that Yugo was......it's still just a Yugo. I'll give you another real world, recent example. At this years GTA Fun Shoot, lots of people tried the 2 rifles I brought; my Walther LGV and HW98. I personally watched them hit the target with my rifles over, and over, and over, and over again. Then I watched these same people shoot their rifles with MUCH different results. Same shooters, same targets, same ranges, just minutes apart. You can't make a silk purse with a sows ear.
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LOL.....same here! I have a .1
I'm the exact opposite. I love my springers. Both of them produce outstanding groupings. I very seldom shoot my pcp. I don't want to keep pumping it up.
Same here! I have a "tuned by me" .177 Beeman R9 and a .177 HW95 and they "scratch the itch" perfectly!
(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/v6Ug0yHl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/eIKiookl.jpg)
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Usually, I have to be in the proper mood to go out back with a Springer. I usually also forget the fact that shooting a Springer well is a perishable skill.
Not so much with the sprung 10 meter stuff, but even though all my other spring guns are kitted, tweaked and massaged, they will quickly bring my lack of follow through to light..........
I guess that I avoid the frustration and downward spiral of second guessing myself, by always keeping the idea in the back of my mind that it is ME 99.9% of the time and not the rifle.
Another thing that has helped me greatly was abandoning the search for blistering blinding speed and power in a spring gun. 12 to 15 FT. lbs. is so much more enjoyable to shoot and the results on the target usually reflect this, at least for me.
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I do have the tuned XS28M, and it is hold sensitive but still very shootable. But still, i could use a benji 392 or sheridan streak and lean or rest it on anything and it will hit where I aim. Can you rest a HW95, Walther LGU, or HW97 right on the hood of your truck or edge of the bed and expect the same POI? How about resting it directly against a tree? I would bet not. With a proper tune I am sure they are vastly improved, but nothing like a pneumatic.
Finally, what about the R7? I have seen plenty of posts about them being a little twitchy, also plenty that claim zero hold sensitivity. You can exceed the power of the R7 with 3 pumps in a benji 392! 4 pumps and it can hang with or maybe surpass a soft tuned HW50 in power, and still hits the same POI when you rest it on a boulder or a stump.
I have experienced the satisfaction of making a breakbarrel shoot. Maybe with a fine rifle like an HW, I would probably just enjoy the feel and craftsmanship so much that I would be able to overlook the twitchiness. But these are not the guns I am talking about here.
This rant came from my first day shooting my .177 breakbarrels, scoped, past 6 meters pretty much ever. Maybe they just don't lock up well or maybe I just not so good at shooting springers. But I am wore out. I started the day with these guns I had scoped up with loctite on every screw, that I have been waitimg for a chance to shoot for literally months. It was not a very satisfying experience. I had to pull out the 2100 just to make sure I can still shoot.
For comparison of apples to apples, the last time I shot the XS28M, the groups at over 40 meters rested right on the bags were better than the groups i shot with these mid powered guns today, even with a scope that vibrated loose and fell off!
I just expected a lot better from these rifles. I can put 12 pumps in my 2100 and fire off a shot, and hit an inch target, faster than I can settle in and try to hit it with these breakbarrels.
I have been around on GTA for awhile. A lot of yall should know, I am not new to springers and have gotten many cheap rifles to shoot very, very well. That takes time and practice, every day. No time for that anymore. I have to go somewhere to shoot. If I worked 9-5, or at least could shoot in the back yard, it would be different.
I will get my hands on a fine german rifle for comparison ine day, but I doubt it will meet my expectations without a good tune. I'd rather spend it on a pneumatic, you could get a vintage streak for far less money and expect excellent accuracy without learning the perfect hold and repeating it.
Also, for comparison, i was drilling 5 hr energy bottles with just the open sights and my cheap daisy 1100 from this same distance, pretty much at will, last time I had it out. Yesterday, with the same rifle scoped, I couldn't even hold a group inside the 3" black circle of a gamo target. Similar story with the remington express, except it was the white 1" circle.
And finally, you might have missed it in my original post, but I would readily give a tuned rifle a shot. Untuned, forget about it. Not now. I knew that some of you would post about your fine springers, looking down your nose at my chinese guns. But as of late, I have seen a lot of posts about issues with some of those fine rifles as well. I'd likely end up tuning it anyway, no time for that. Would have to send it straight to a tuner or forget about it.
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I have lots of PCP but still love my springers.Started in the late 80s with a FW124 then Beeman R10,R7,P1, last 3 with Santa Rosa stamp still shoot them,my new love a HW97K Black thumbhole stainless from Krale really like my Terrus from AOA and my WallMart D34 RWS 350 Mag.I live 90 miles from air source and am almost out of air saving some for my new BSA R10 MRII thats on the way.LOVE MY SPRINGERS
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Vibra-Tite VC-3 will cure those loose screws and still let you snug them later if they really need to be.
First time heard this and I am buying some to use, seems less worrisome if I want to remove or re-tighten the screw
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"Untuned, forget about it."
Hummmm.... straight from the box, after a bit of barrel pivot bolt, stock screw adjustment, a bore clean and a few dozen fouling shots down the tube, I found that my R9s and the HW95 mentioned would shoot inside a 1/2" circle at 30 yards. While my home tuned HW95 is more pleasurable to shoot without the twang and vibration, that is the only REAL advantage of my tuning because accuracy was similar either way.
Definitely not PCP quality grouping or the PCP ability to shoot heavy pellets at useable velocities I also don't need to pump/buy air, count shots, or have an air leak if the orings goes south or a bit of dirt gets into the frammis.
265 consecutive shots at one setting including a very rare pivot bolt adjustment.........
(https://i.imgur.com/5ko3WLgl.jpg)
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I can definitely relate to the "can't retire, no time to shoot" part. But I still appreciate both the springers and PCPs in my collection.
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My springers are in a loveless relationship. I'm thinking about getting a 22 cal Diana 54 or 56 just to keep a springer and getting rid of the rest. Since getting a few high shot count PCPs I never shoot my springers. In the past they were my grab and go guns, now I can fill one of the PCPs and shoot 100-150 shots without refilling so that's the way I have been going.
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. At this years GTA Fun Shoot, lots of people tried the 2 rifles I brought; my Walther LGV and HW98. I personally watched them hit the target with my rifles over, and over, and over, and over again. Then I watched these same people shoot their rifles with MUCH different results. Same shooters, same targets, same ranges, just minutes apart. You can't make a silk purse with a sows ear.
That brings to mind another thread from a few months ago.
I recall someone saying the difference was the shooter, and not the gun.
My experience is contrary to that idea.
There is a difference in guns.
Were that not the case, I would love shooting my Gamos as much as my German rifles.
It will be hard to convince me that my shooting ability changes when I put down a German gun and pick up a Chinese variety
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Bryan, I’m with you on this subject. Most of my springer experience has been with sub-$250 models, but I do have a nice FWB borrowed from a friend and I seldom pick it up. For me, it’s just not as enjoyable as a PCP. Even as someone who hand pumps my PCPs, I still look at it that way. I’d rather put the work in every once in a while in an evening so I can maximize my enjoyment when I go outside later. For example, a .177 running in the ballpark of 12-14fpe is a happy place for springers, but at the same time a PCP only needs about 1 pump per shot so I don’t see how that’s any more effort than cranking back the barrel of a springer. That’s well worth it to sidestep any hold sensitivity in my opinion. And once the fun starts, all I have to do is cycle the bolt, point and click, and enjoy seeing a hole appear exactly where I wanted it.
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More times then not I'm shooting the 97k over everything else. Just nice to grab the gun and go to the range and not have to carry a pump.
This is also the only spring gun I have enjoyed. My others are useless.
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While stating " I Never Shoot My Spring Guns " would be untrue ... it is so close to the truth its not funny :-\
Diana 75, TX-200, HW-35, FWB 124, Webley tempest and a few others have become SAFE QUEENS rarely seeing the light of day yet get shot.
Once one has "AIR" have found it very difficult to shoot anything but PCP or SSP type air guns.
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The one thing I like about PCs is that they have driven down the price on some good springers. There are realy a lot more options for the airgun dollar than there was 15 or 20 years ago. That said I have owned good precharged rifles but did not keep them. Some days shooting times comes in 5 minute segments of grabbing the gun and putting 4 or 5 shots into the spinner trap. There is something special about slow, simple and reliable. Spring guns, bicycles and model A Fords for example.
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You can never replace the springers (and the single/multi pump pneumatics). I'm spending lots more time with the PCP's myself but it is nice to know that the springers are there and will always shoot as long as a pellet is available or able to be made. No air supply or electricity available, no problem. My Walther LGU and LGV both shoot better than the HW97 I have (which is a good accurate rifle) and they rival the PCP's for accuracy. They can be shot at any time by picking up a pellet only. Good in my book.
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Springers - the spice of shooting.
It will be a long time before the PCP shooters can recapture the joys of youth like you can with a springer.
PS All the Austrian army airgunners are past it.
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Well fellas, it ain't just cheap Chinese rifles that give one fits as stated earlier.
Was out back playing musical scopes on a few PCP rifles, and this thread popped into my head.
The old trusty Diana 46 was all over the aiming black of a 10 meter target at 15 yards. It took a good 20 to 25 shots until I could get it to settle down and group.
The TX200 was not much different, and I actually had to stop shooting it and add some weight to the 2nd stage before I could come to terms with it.
I then went to my failsafe FWB 124, and the sparrows were in absolutely no trouble what so ever. I am sure that I heard several chirps of derision, and mocking laughter.
Took the better part of an afternoon before I could come back in the house and not hang my head in shame.
My Cricket had me feeling like Alvin York, and then those darn spring guns were like a brick to the forehead......
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Quality springers are not only a pleasure to shoot, but certainly also a pleasure to own !!
I love shooting PCP's as well, but from others, so that I don't have the hassle with leaking o-rings, filling scuba bottles etc LOL
Every now and then when I suffer from any non-recoil itch, I'm buying a CO2 airgun... And sell it again when the itch is over.
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If somebody is burned out on one type of gun, then the easy answer is to diversify. You can do so very cheaply and still own accurate airguns. My collection is a prime example.
SSP, MSP, PCP, CO2, and both gas-ram and coil-spring springer all have well-earned places in my tiny less-than-12-guns-overall collection. All of them are used for plinking, and all but the SSP pistol have taken pests. The bottom line is you can still have a small assortment and still scratch every type of itch. And believe when I say I have some very inexpensive airguns. My most expensive was the PP700 pistol, which literally was delivered from Krale-Schietsport to Virginia in 2 days for under $220, a scope mounted in about 1 minute, pumped up in 5 minutes, and proceeded to make single-hole groups with multiple pellet types. No, it isn't quite a tuned pistol, but it offers serious out of the box accuracy. Could it be improved upon? Certainly. But it solved my "tired of springers and pumpers" doldrums I suffered a couple years ago.
Got a CO2 or "custom pumper" itch? The 2300KT, 1300KT, and 2400KT all offer "out of the box" cloverleaf-hole accuracy at realistic distances (20 to 40 yards) using the stock Crosman barrel and the LW barrel can do even better. In other words, you can get a great little accurate hole-maker without breaking the bank.
And for that matter, even the utter-garbage modern 760 can be outfitted with a MK-177 rifled barrel from Crosman to produce a surprisingly accurate plinker. Imagine, $20 for the 760 and $10 for the barrel. Use the brass-screw method to ensure the crown is perfect on the barrel, then mount a cheapo scope and prepare to be astounded. I have a thread on this exact project and that pumper went from laughably pathetic to English House Sparrow killer at 30 yards.
Or you can spend a big chunk of money on something really nice.
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Well fellas, it ain't just cheap Chinese rifles that give one fits as stated earlier.
Was out back playing musical scopes on a few PCP rifles, and this thread popped into my head.
The old trusty Diana 46 was all over the aiming black of a 10 meter target at 15 yards. It took a good 20 to 25 shots until I could get it to settle down and group.
The TX200 was not much different, and I actually had to stop shooting it and add some weight to the 2nd stage before I could come to terms with it.
I then went to my failsafe FWB 124, and the sparrows were in absolutely no trouble what so ever. I am sure that I heard several chirps of derision, and mocking laughter.
Took the better part of an afternoon before I could come back in the house and not hang my head in shame.
My Cricket had me feeling like Alvin York, and then those darn spring guns were like a brick to the forehead......
"several chirps of derision, and mocking laughter."
LOL....I've read that crows are one of the smartest birds and I believe that after a couple incident s when I lived in West Virginia. One afternoon I was practicing at my back yard shooting range pictured in this pic..........
(https://i.imgur.com/LL3Lfl2l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/wahSRg7l.jpg)
The targets in the pic are 50 yards away from the "bucket and sticks" and a crow landed it a tree just behind the 50 yard target and was literally watching me shoot. Humm....a stupid crow (I thought) so it was decided to stalk from tree to tree till at getting about 35 yards from the crow. That bird obviously was watching me creep from tree to tree because it flew when I was about 40 yards away. To add "insult to injury" the crow only flew to another tree about 20 yards away. "Stalking" (or so I thought) the same thing happened, when I got within about 40 yards the crow flew to another tree further away. This silly routine continued till I was at the edge of my property at the "wet weather stream", then the crow flew away for the last time while CAWING LIKE IT WAS LAUGHING! Then the realization came that I had to carry my R9 back to the shooting range "UPHILL ALL THE WAY"!
Then there was the time a crow was sitting in a tree in my front yard watching me sweep snow off my deck..............
(https://i.imgur.com/kuprCgpl.jpg)
I stopped sweeping and pointed the broom handle at the crow as if I was shooting. The crow just watched so I thought an actually dumb crow this time and went inside to get the R9. I cocked the springer, loaded a pellet, re-latched the barrel, then went to the back door to take a shot. The crow was still in the tree so I slowly opened the door a bit and started to put the muzzle through the opening to take a shot. Well....before the muzzle was half way out the door that "dumb crow" saw it and instantly recognized that it was a gun barrel, then flew away "laughing all the way"!
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If somebody is burned out on one type of gun, then the easy answer is to diversify. You can do so very cheaply and still own accurate airguns. My collection is a prime example.
SSP, MSP, PCP, CO2, and both gas-ram and coil-spring springer all have well-earned places in my tiny less-than-12-guns-overall collection. All of them are used for plinking, and all but the SSP pistol have taken pests. The bottom line is you can still have a small assortment and still scratch every type of itch. And believe when I say I have some very inexpensive airguns. My most expensive was the PP700 pistol, which literally was delivered from Krale-Schietsport to Virginia in 2 days for under $220, a scope mounted in about 1 minute, pumped up in 5 minutes, and proceeded to make single-hole groups with multiple pellet types. No, it isn't quite a tuned pistol, but it offers serious out of the box accuracy. Could it be improved upon? Certainly. But it solved my "tired of springers and pumpers" doldrums I suffered a couple years ago.
Got a CO2 or "custom pumper" itch? The 2300KT, 1300KT, and 2400KT all offer "out of the box" cloverleaf-hole accuracy at realistic distances (20 to 40 yards) using the stock Crosman barrel and the LW barrel can do even better. In other words, you can get a great little accurate hole-maker without breaking the bank.
And for that matter, even the utter-garbage modern 760 can be outfitted with a MK-177 rifled barrel from Crosman to produce a surprisingly accurate plinker. Imagine, $20 for the 760 and $10 for the barrel. Use the brass-screw method to ensure the crown is perfect on the barrel, then mount a cheapo scope and prepare to be astounded. I have a thread on this exact project and that pumper went from laughably pathetic to English House Sparrow killer at 30 yards.
Or you can spend a big chunk of money on something really nice.
Just dug up one of my 880's to help scratch that itch. Took the Simmons 22 mag off the remington express and put it on the 880. Next time I shoot it will be just the 2100 and the 880. Definitely have my sights set on a 1322 and a 2240 as well. Crosman custom shop is tempting, lol.
Really wish I'd have had a taker on the pump i posted in the classifieds. At this point I'd have taken almost any .22 pneumatic in trade for it. Now i gotta wait a week to repost!
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Crows..........
Those black clad agents of deception, those sneaky bastages.............
There are loads of crows around me, being a rural area with cattle spreads and the like, and those sum guns do flyovers to draw attention and get the lay of the land.
I have watched them post up in trees and send out scouts who commence with the raucous cawing and caterwauling to see who or what responds, moves, or reveals itself.
Amazingly, they can bo a flyover at 100 feet or better and sound like they are sitting on top of your hat. As soon as you look up, Baw, Haw, Caw they mark you and keep their distance. They can recognize the bad actors.
I am positive that they recognize every crow call that I possess no matter the pattern or volume, and make it a point to circle my AO whenever they mark me outside.
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Just dug up one of my 880's to help scratch that itch. Took the Simmons 22 mag off the remington express and put it on the 880. Next time I shoot it will be just the 2100 and the 880. Definitely have my sights set on a 1322 and a 2240 as well. Crosman custom shop is tempting, lol.
Really wish I'd have had a taker on the pump i posted in the classifieds. At this point I'd have taken almost any .22 pneumatic in trade for it. Now i gotta wait a week to repost!
I sat on the fence for a long time regarding a 2400KT from the CCS. My 1377 and 2240 were both bone stock and I loved them but I bit the bullet last year during a CCS sale.
Next time I get one (most likely in a couple weeks) I'll be ordering a .177 with a Lothar barrel just because, but my 2400KT has a 14" .22 Crosman barrel and has proven to be the airgun I pick up more than any other- even my PP700. And with the depth of modification these CO2 guns have, I find them worthwhile investments.
And late last fall, I took my OEM 2240 and ordered a steel breech and 24" barrel. The Maximus barrel is what I received, and it has proven extremely accurate at CO2-distances with the cheapest most abundant pellets I know of: 7.4 grain Crosman pointed pellets in the white box. So I've been trading off between them and my 760.
Hmmm, I've been neglecting my 1377. When this thunderstorm stops, I may need to rectify that.
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I love the crosman pointed pellets. Nothing shoots better for 1 cent apiece. They outshoot everything else I have tried in the 2100.
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To be fair, I probably should have done a pellet test with these springers. I can see how it might make a difference with the express. The daisy 1100 might have a lockup issue. For $60 brand new, it is still an awesome and handy little gun. Just, so far, no good with a scope. Might get better results after i try every pellet i have. Meanwhile it is ok to ten yards. Expectation management I guess, lol. It will sport open sights for awhile.
Still, so much better results with the 2100. Looking back, i forgot how poorly the 2100 performed with everything but the pointed crosman ammo in the past. This gun and these pellets were made for each other, literally.
I do have a variety of cheap store shelf ammo to try, surely at least one will do better. I probably have every pellet that can be found on a store shelf within a reasonable drive from home. That is a pretty good variety, at least 13 different pellets of at least 5 different brands. The 1100 was hitting those 5 hr energy bottles with open sights awhile back, with the pirhanas. It is a powerhouse, maybe pushing cphp too fast, or spinning them too fast. Maybe a lockup issue too.
Still, i so much prefer the msp's. The 2100 only really likes the pointed crosmans, but even with the worst pellet, it does better than the 1100 at 20 meters did that day with a couple of pellets. I can at least keep all of them inside the black on the gamo target with anything, from the 2100. Usually hit the 1 3/4 spinner too.
I have probably been spoiled by a good run with cheap guns. Not sure what it is about the Stoeger line of air rifles. I know they are generally just another rebadged Gamo clone, but there is no denying the fact that they shoot. I remember being dissappointed that i could not hold 10m nickel groups edge to edge with a .22 X20S and selling it because I thought I'd completely lost my touch with a springer. I'd be happy to cover all my 10m groups with a quarter with my current set of price point springers. Only guns I can meet or beat those expectations with now are the x3 and XS28M.
Been so long since I shot anything past 6 meters. I really expected to hold a better group with my palm rested. Next time I will take one rifle and wring it out with every pellet at 20 meters.
Still, you can't beat the inherent accuracy of a pneumatic, from every firing position, off any type of rest. It feels good to hit what you are aimig at, no matter what.
I did make a wishlist on AOA for a .22 HW30S, in laminate. Waiting for when the time is right to send it to my wife. There are 2 big no-no's of mine:
1. Ordering from AOA
2. Untuned springer. I did put a vortek kit in the list, JIC.
I also found myself a benjamin 397. I need a powerful pneumatic that I can feed from the store shelf to keep my sanity. Squirrel season is coming in a couple months, i don't have a week to "get my eye in" on a springer.
Thanks to all for your input.
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To be fair, I probably should have done a pellet test with these springers. I can see how it might make a difference with the express. The daisy 1100 might have a lockup issue. For $60 brand new, it is still an awesome and handy little gun. Just, so far, no good with a scope. Might get better results after i try every pellet i have. Meanwhile it is ok to ten yards. Expectation management I guess, lol. It will sport open sights for awhile.
Still, so much better results with the 2100. Looking back, i forgot how poorly the 2100 performed with everything but the pointed crosman ammo in the past. This gun and these pellets were made for each other, literally.
I do have a variety of cheap store shelf ammo to try, surely at least one will do better. I probably have every pellet that can be found on a store shelf within a reasonable drive from home. That is a pretty good variety, at least 13 different pellets of at least 5 different brands. The 1100 was hitting those 5 hr energy bottles with open sights awhile back, with the pirhanas. It is a powerhouse, maybe pushing cphp too fast, or spinning them too fast. Maybe a lockup issue too.
Still, i so much prefer the msp's. The 2100 only really likes the pointed crosmans, but even with the worst pellet, it does better than the 1100 at 20 meters did that day with a couple of pellets. I can at least keep all of them inside the black on the gamo target with anything, from the 2100. Usually hit the 1 3/4 spinner too.
I have probably been spoiled by a good run with cheap guns. Not sure what it is about the Stoeger line of air rifles. I know they are generally just another rebadged Gamo clone, but there is no denying the fact that they shoot. I remember being dissappointed that i could not hold 10m nickel groups edge to edge with a .22 X20S and selling it because I thought I'd completely lost my touch with a springer. I'd be happy to cover all my 10m groups with a quarter with my current set of price point springers. Only guns I can meet or beat those expectations with now are the x3 and XS28M.
Been so long since I shot anything past 6 meters. I really expected to hold a better group with my palm rested. Next time I will take one rifle and wring it out with every pellet at 20 meters.
Still, you can't beat the inherent accuracy of a pneumatic, from every firing position, off any type of rest. It feels good to hit what you are aimig at, no matter what.
I did make a wishlist on AOA for a .22 HW30S, in laminate. Waiting for when the time is right to send it to my wife. There are 2 big no-no's of mine:
1. Ordering from AOA
2. Untuned springer. I did put a vortek kit in the list, JIC.
I also found myself a benjamin 397. I need a powerful pneumatic that I can feed from the store shelf to keep my sanity. Squirrel season is coming in a couple months, i don't have a week to "get my eye in" on a springer.
Thanks to all for your input.
Here are a few groups with different brands of pellets, all shot with the same gun, all shot upstairs at 18 yards, all sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks..............
This target was shot when I noticed poor grouping with my "go to" pellet (die lot marked and dated CPL from the 1250 count cardboard box) when shooting the "zero bull" and group improvement after a bore clean.............
(https://i.imgur.com/4TSHToSl.jpg)
Here are some other brand pellet groups from the same gun, same distance, etc.............
(https://i.imgur.com/mJUc0Lel.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/M0Qh7iLl.jpg)
For me the pellet selected makes a big difference...........
At 30 yards..........
(https://i.imgur.com/bFgMKYKl.jpg)
At 50 yards..........
(https://i.imgur.com/lRt2vjbl.jpg)
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Really surprised to see those groups with the R9. To be fair, crosman's pointed, wadcutter, and destroyer ammo fit loose in almost everything, and most guns don't like pellets that drop right in. Thanks fir sharing that.
Really surprised to see tge CPHP's strung out like that. Especially with the comparatively better destroyers. Also, especially knowing your and your guns' affinity for the boxed premiers. Maybe a bad lot of cphp?
I might break down and order a sampler from straighshooters for the future. Those groups with the "good" pellets are remarkable.
Thanks for sharing.
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I’m late to this topic, and I don’t post often, but I’m not at all surprised to see good groups with a Weihrauch spring gun. I learned quite early on in my adult Airgun experience to avoid at all costs, Crosman-Gamo-Daisy-etc pellets. I would avoid them even more adamantly in a low cost spring gun. Today I was out with my CZ634(low cost spring gun) outfitted with a Hawke 3-9(low cost scope) and from a sand bag was quite easily hitting a 2” spinner with H&N FTTs(decent pellets).
Sometimes, not always, it takes a bit more kit to get acceptable results.
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I’m late to this topic, and I don’t post often, but I’m not at all surprised to see good groups with a Weihrauch spring gun. I learned quite early on in my adult Airgun experience to avoid at all costs, Crosman-Gamo-Daisy-etc pellets. I would avoid them even more adamantly in a low cost spring gun. Today I was out with my CZ634(low cost spring gun) outfitted with a Hawke 3-9(low cost scope) and from a sand bag was quite easily hitting a 2” spinner with H&N FTTs(decent pellets).
Sometimes, not always, it takes a bit more kit to get acceptable results.
The Crosman pellet accuracy does vary greatly depending on the different offerings. The die lot marked and dated Crosman Premiers from the 1250 count cardboard box have been the most accurate pellet from my various .177 springers owned over the years including Beeman R10, HW77k, Beeman R9s (one was a .20 cal), and HW95. One of the issues I have with all Crosman pellets is the fact that the hard lead alloy tends to foul the bore unless they are lubed. I've been lubing my Crosman Premiers for the springers for decades now to minimize barrel fouling and make bore cleaning easier.
Contrary to the die lot marked and dated "single die boxed Premiers", the "multiple die" Crosman Premiers straight from the "tins" haven't been accurate (from my R9) unless they were pre-sorted according to head size, just like the Crosman Premier hollow points. When the "Premiers from the tins" were sorted and fit the leade consistently they were as accurate as the die lot marked and dated boxed Premiers. The "fly in the ointment" with the "Premiers from the tins" was the fact that when the CPHPs were accuracy tested years ago only about 30% fit the leade properly which made shooting only the "useable CPHPs" a rather expensive affair! My newer .177 HW95 has a tighter leade than the older R9 so it will likely shoot the CPHPs more accurately. I did buy a tin of CPHPs and a couple tins of 750 count Benjamin hollow points for testing with the HW95 but I haven't taken the time to do the testing yet.
Anywhoo.....my "looser leade" .177 Beeman R9 does have "accuracy issues" with both the H&N FTTs and JSB Exacts due to the extreme variation in pellet head fit from the tins. With both brands I found loose fitting AND proper fitting pellets from the same tin (a loose fitting FTT or Exact will be a flier). All these pellets came from tins marked 4.52mm which makes me wonder why the tins are labeled with head sizes in the first place......
(https://i.imgur.com/5vGMBDxl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/udeSRarl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/f1F71oPl.jpg)
My newer .177 HW95 has a tighter leade than the .177 R9 so the HW95 may be more accurate with the FTT & Exacts. I'll probably revisit them when my stash of boxed CPLs runs out.
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::) How does one become burned out on springers. Springers ? They do require focus and back to basics as far as shooting with accuracy is concerned. I feel that shooting springers well makes shooting anything else much easier to shoot with accuracy. The only AG missing from my collection is pumpers and that is because I just can't seem to warm up to them. Back to the OP there is definitely a difference between shooting an AG clone vs. shooting the real deal original quality version springer. Some of the less expensive springers require a little TLC to achieve their best performance but even higher end PCP rifles benefit from a little TLC and tuning to reach their full potential.
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Depending on my mood, standard springers can be either challenging or frustrating.
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Depending on my mood, standard springers can be either challenging or frustrating.
The challenge turns into frustration for me. ;D
My only air rifles are springers and only have two at that but don't ever see myself with any other type. PCP's don't interest me, to much associated equipment required. With a springer I just grab the gun, pellets and go shoot.
I'll have three springers if I find a FWB 300S though.
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Ever consider trying a different brand than the Crosman and Chinese stuff you have?? Mike's tuned rifles are sweet guns, I have one, but maybe consider trying some of the ones from Mendoza or Norica being sold on Amazon for $100 lately.
I have the Mendoza Golden Scorpion and Blackhawk, both in .22 and not bad rifles out of the box at all for $100 with nothing more than cleaning, screw check and some breaking in.
My Norica Deadeye .22 was a special order straight from Spain because it's not one sold here in the States but the ones that are and being sold on Amazon for that same $100 get pretty good reviews from other members who have them and maybe worth a look at. The Black Eagle in .177 is currently $84.15 and they have the .22 for $99.95:
https://www.amazon.com/Norica-Black-Eagle-0-177-Rifle/dp/B0142BHT6A/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1531144198&sr=8-8&keywords=norica+air+rifle (https://www.amazon.com/Norica-Black-Eagle-0-177-Rifle/dp/B0142BHT6A/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1531144198&sr=8-8&keywords=norica+air+rifle)
They have a few others in the same price range between springers and some gas rams aka the GRS rifles.
Only complaint I have about all the springers in my list is not getting to shoot as much as I'd like to. I like the challenge and even when it does get frustrationg, I just try that much harder to get them to shoot the way I want.
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I’m late to this topic, and I don’t post often, but I’m not at all surprised to see good groups with a Weihrauch spring gun. I learned quite early on in my adult Airgun experience to avoid at all costs, Crosman-Gamo-Daisy-etc pellets. I would avoid them even more adamantly in a low cost spring gun. Today I was out with my CZ634(low cost spring gun) outfitted with a Hawke 3-9(low cost scope) and from a sand bag was quite easily hitting a 2” spinner with H&N FTTs(decent pellets).
Sometimes, not always, it takes a bit more kit to get acceptable results.
Forgot to mention the range was 70 yards.
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I’m late to this topic, and I don’t post often, but I’m not at all surprised to see good groups with a Weihrauch spring gun. I learned quite early on in my adult Airgun experience to avoid at all costs, Crosman-Gamo-Daisy-etc pellets. I would avoid them even more adamantly in a low cost spring gun. Today I was out with my CZ634(low cost spring gun) outfitted with a Hawke 3-9(low cost scope) and from a sand bag was quite easily hitting a 2” spinner with H&N FTTs(decent pellets).
Sometimes, not always, it takes a bit more kit to get acceptable results.
Forgot to mention the range was 70 yards.
LOL...for me and my equipment, hitting a 2" spinner at 70 yards would be a "lottery shot"!
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Bryan, I have to be brutally honest here. This is just my humble opinion, nothing more. Every rifle you mentioned comes from one country. Have you ever shot a well tuned Weihrauch, Walter, Air Arms, or FWB springer?
I have to admit, I was thinking the same thing when I read the original post.
I'd suggest you sell two or three of the springers you're most frustrated with and buy an HW30 or R7. Straight out of the box, I bet it changes your opinion....
Tight groups,
Bob
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I guess I have to post some groups with my straight outta the box flying dragon springer. It will make you think twice about the origin of a rifle. Yes, tuned, but that is an option when you purchase it. I would love to see an RWS 350 mag, right out of the box, that could hang with it. Last I checked, the 350 costs $200 more than a tuned xs28m.
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I guess I have to post some groups with my straight outta the box flying dragon springer. It will make you think twice about the origin of a rifle. Yes, tuned, but that is an option when you purchase it. I would love to see an RWS 350 mag, right out of the box, that could hang with it. Last I checked, the 350 costs $200 more than a tuned xs28m.
I don't doubt your xs28m shoots great groups... I have a Mike Melick-tuned BAM B26. I also have a few Hatsans, a China-made Webley, two B3's, etc. But if I was going to recommend a bone-stock springer to a dear friend in hopes that he/she would be completely satisfied and happy, I'd probably recommend a Weihrauch.
You said you're burned out on springers. Some folks --including myself-- are merely suggesting that maybe it's because you haven't tried a high-quality springer or two with some high-quality pellets. Springer fans don't want to see you go to the dark side! ;)
Tight groups,
Bob
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I guess I have to post some groups with my straight outta the box flying dragon springer. It will make you think twice about the origin of a rifle. Yes, tuned, but that is an option when you purchase it. I would love to see an RWS 350 mag, right out of the box, that could hang with it. Last I checked, the 350 costs $200 more than a tuned xs28m.
I don't doubt your xs28m shoots great groups... I have a Mike Melick-tuned BAM B26. I also have a few Hatsans, a China-made Webley, two B3's, etc. But if I was going to recommend a bone-stock springer to a dear friend in hopes that he/she would be completely satisfied and happy, I'd probably recommend a Weihrauch.
You said you're burned out on springers. Some folks --including myself-- are merely suggesting that maybe it's because you haven't tried a high-quality springer or two with some high-quality pellets. Springer fans don't want to see you go to the dark side! ;)
Tight groups,
Bob
I've sampled the dark side. Yeah, a cheap PCP (gamo urban). Showed a lot of promise but overall I wasn't that impressed.
When I have time, my cheap boingers will get their second chance. Meanwhile, I am seeking out deals on MSP's, and leaving the laminate HW30S in the wishlist for later.
If I were goimg to drop $400-$500 on a nice springer, that laminate HW30S would be at the top of the list. They say, a pound of rifle per foot-pound of energy makes a smooth shooter. The laminate HW30S in .22 would just ride the top edge of that and look good doing it, and just barely hits hard enough that I would hunt with it.
I used to love working with the cheap springers, but to get satisfaction from it i gotta have time to learn the rifle and fix the shortcomings. These days I barely have time to shoot. Hence the frustration, and now I can empathize with others frustrated by them. I was on the other side of that fence, when I had plenty of time and could shoot in the yard. Miss those days.
Meanwhile, i have a 397 coming in the mail :)
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My favorite the past few years has been vintage target rifles, but I have recently bought an HW98 and replaced the spring and guide, man what a difference that made. I would take any TX200 over most any other springer.
Mark
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I guess I have to post some groups with my straight outta the box flying dragon springer. It will make you think twice about the origin of a rifle. Yes, tuned, but that is an option when you purchase it. I would love to see an RWS 350 mag, right out of the box, that could hang with it. Last I checked, the 350 costs $200 more than a tuned xs28m.
I also have a China-made Webley.... But if I was going to recommend a bone-stock springer to a dear friend in hopes that he/she would be completely satisfied and happy, I'd probably recommend a Weihrauch.
Your Webley was made in Turkey, same rifle as the Edge/Striker/1000 series rifles but with a .20 cal barrel...wish Hatsan would actually make a few of their own in something like the Model 95 series. Make sure the barrels were well made and accurate and they'd likely sell quite a few.
I have to agree on a Weihrauch/Beeman if someone has the money and is willing to spend it. I still wouldn't sell or trade my lesser rifles but everyone should own at least one Weihrauch.
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PCP and vintage pumpers have most definitely grabbed most of my shooting time lately. Maybe it's time to post some threads on my "cheap" springers. I have a Crosman Blaze NP in .177 with the roller blade trigger mod that I bought from another member for around $50 shipped. That thing amazes me every time. Then there is the "FireCat", a pawn shop find that I chopped and detuned. That thing is hard to put down once you start shooting it.
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That is the biggest bargain on a springer- the GTA classifieds. Members start out on a cheap gun, find GTA, learn how to make it shoot, and eventually let it go for little more than the price of shipping. Been there and done that maybe a half a dozen times. I miss every one of those rifles.
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Anyway, can anybody relate to this? I love airguns and I loved tinkering with them when I had time, but I don't anymore. Now, I just want out of the box performance. I might just unload my springers in favor of some single shot multi pump and CO2 rifles.
Yes, I can
I used a 1960's .22 8ft lb target rifle from East Germany - a Haenel - finally had to give up on it as it was worn out
I replaced it with a new .22 deluxe Chinese POS that despite tuning, was still a POS
I then bought a German HW95 with barrel weight in .177 - superb accuracy after tuning to get rid of the horrid twang, but I missed knock-down power of .22 - and it had to be held just right every time to get the accuracy
I then bought a German HW99s in .22 - and despite every reviewer saying it was superb, it is in my opinion an expensive German POS that has defects
I then went for Benjamin Trail NP gas ram in .22 - tuned out to be another Chinese POS made from identical parts as my first Chinese POS deluxe air rifle - I'm thinking it is from the same Chinese factory, despite claims of USA manufacture
I'd now had enough, and went to a gun shop to buy a PCP - a new German .22 Walther RM8 varmint - shop owner was useless and couldn't find the fill probe, but eventually found it in a drawer - but could not find the .22 magazine anywhere. I had traveled, and had already received my Yong Heng compressor from China, so was determined to get a PCP that day - I paid too much for an 8 years old English AirArms s400 single shot in .22 he had in stock - but it's proved to be a phenomenal air rifle - even fitted with the cheap centerpoint scope that came with the Benjamin trail NP it's a killing machine - one of those rifles you can't seem to miss with
I then went all-out and got a 2 years old English AirArms s510 multi-shot in .22 - got a big expensive scope on it - would you believe it, I miss more times than I hit with it
My advice is go PCP and get an AirArms s400 single shot - rifle is amazing - but you need an LDC as it makes a loud crack - they make the same rifle as s410 in multi-shot, but I've read that being single shot is why it's deadly accurate
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Anyway, can anybody relate to this? I love airguns and I loved tinkering with them when I had time, but I don't anymore. Now, I just want out of the box performance. I might just unload my springers in favor of some single shot multi pump and CO2 rifles.
Yes, I can
I used a 1960's .22 8ft lb target rifle from East Germany - a Haenel - finally had to give up on it as it was worn out
I replaced it with a new .22 deluxe Chinese POS that despite tuning, was still a POS
I then bought a German HW95 with barrel weight in .177 - superb accuracy after tuning to get rid of the horrid twang, but I missed knock-down power of .22 - and it had to be held just right every time to get the accuracy
I then bought a German HW99s in .22 - and despite every reviewer saying it was superb, it is in my opinion an expensive German POS that has defects
I then went for Benjamin Trail NP gas ram in .22 - tuned out to be another Chinese POS made from identical parts as my first Chinese POS deluxe air rifle - I'm thinking it is from the same Chinese factory, despite claims of USA manufacture
I'd now had enough, and went to a gun shop to buy a PCP - a new German .22 Walther RM8 varmint - shop owner was useless and couldn't find the fill probe, but eventually found it in a drawer - but could not find the .22 magazine anywhere. I had traveled, and had already received my Yong Heng compressor from China, so was determined to get a PCP that day - I paid too much for an 8 years old English AirArms s400 single shot in .22 he had in stock - but it's proved to be a phenomenal air rifle - even fitted with the cheap centerpoint scope that came with the Benjamin trail NP it's a killing machine - one of those rifles you can't seem to miss with
I then went all-out and got a 2 years old English AirArms s510 multi-shot in .22 - got a big expensive scope on it - would you believe it, I miss more times than I hit with it
My advice is go PCP and get an AirArms s400 single shot - rifle is amazing - but you need a silencer as it makes a loud crack - they make the same rifle as s410 in multi-shot, but I've read that being single shot is why it's deadly accurate
"but you need a silencer as it makes a loud crack"
My understanding is that a silencer on an airgun is illegal if it can be removed. LOL.....many airgun forums don't even allow discussion of silencers due to possible legal ramifications!
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/11/an-update-on-airgun-silencers/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/11/an-update-on-airgun-silencers/)
From the above...........
"Are they removable?
So many airguns come with built-in silencers these days, the question becomes, “Can they be removed and installed on a firearm?” If they can and if they reduce the sound of that firearm for even one shot, they meet the definition of a silencer and must be registered. People discuss this to absurdity! Because anything CAN be done. The question is whether or not it can be done relatively easily so there’s a real danger.
This is why I’ve stressed so strongly that buying a silenced airgun from Pyramyd Air is your safety net. They know which manufacturers have produced approved airguns that are quiet. They also know the airguns that the BATF&E might question, and they won’t sell those."
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"Silencers" are NOT illegal on airguns. "Silencers" made for air guns typically wouldn't withstand the power of a powder burner. GTA recently changed their rules to allow the discussion of silencers providing we don't discus how to make them. Websites and forums that ban the discussion of these are only doing so to remain on the "safe side" of things. Distributors who prohibit them are the same distributors who refuse to ship air gun related products to certain general areas where they may or may not be banned.
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ATF is pretty clear in this. Any gun part that can be used on another gun to lessen its report, even if it involves a few hours or afternoon of basic machining to make it work, even for one shot, fits the legal description of a (we can't even use the word, can we?). My daughter was friends with an ATF agent. He confirmed, they do not interpret in favor of the possessor of such a device. Something as innocent as having your music up too loud when you are shooting and get a visit from the local constabulary. They came for the music, but they are looking to take somebody in every trip if they can. Every trip. That's their job. Find crime, start the prosecutorial process. I'd like to have 5 years off, but not that way. As for buying from PA and thinking that covers your @!!: Find the American Airgunner episode dealing with "the word we cannot say". Watch it 2-3 times so that it all sinks in. That segment is a veiled disclaimer, carefully scripted and packaged. While it is FYI in nature, let's not be coy with each other about its real purpose. While informational, it was aired so as to cover as many butts in the industry as possible, to give as many as possible plausible deniability. Tom even says in it that he knows of people that have been charged and went to jail. Ask yourself, if you had to distill that segment down to a thesis statement, what would it be? Bottom line...if they want you, they will use this to get you.
I make my living helping others recognize and plan for risk. This is risky.
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If it gets locked for the silencer discussion I will die laughing.
I am ok with leaving it at the fact the ATF is always looking for a reason to take your guns, so why take the risk. I am pretty sure we can all agree with that.
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My advice is go PCP and get an AirArms s400 single shot - rifle is amazing - but you need a silencer as it makes a loud crack - they make the same rifle as s410 in multi-shot, but I've read that being single shot is why it's deadly accurate
"but you need a silencer as it makes a loud crack"
My understanding is that a silencer on an airgun is illegal if it can be removed. LOL.....many airgun forums don't even allow discussion of silencers due to possible legal ramifications!
I was forgetting about stupid USA airgun laws - I'm in Britain/UK - we have stupid power level airgun laws, but silencers/moderators are not regulated - just that we have to buy them in person face to face and they cannot be purchased by mail order from a dealer
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The ATF makes their thinking quite clear on their website. Their thinking, while it hasn't changed, didn't stand up in a court of law, even when applied to someone who appears to be a rather unsavory person: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html).
I'm no lawyer, but it seems from reading this case if you own a detachable airgun silencer, you better not have a easy method of attachment to a firearm that is in your possession. If you are committing other crimes, it is also reasonable to expect them to throw the book at you when you are caught, so you can expect the same treatment Mr. Crooker endured. The one thing you'll have going for you is this existing case on the books. Could a higher court reverse this ruling? I don't know.
This line is something else to consider:
His attitude toward shipping chemicals shows an indifference to law, and (quite apart from silencers) even more disturbing is his professed interest as a convicted felon in airguns that could be as powerful as firearms.
Let's all remember to handle our airguns responsibly.
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Burned on springers, and what do you do? Buy a springer! and a project gun at that ;D Had to razz you a little bit. ;)
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My advice is go PCP and get an AirArms s400 single shot - rifle is amazing - but you need a silencer as it makes a loud crack - they make the same rifle as s410 in multi-shot, but I've read that being single shot is why it's deadly accurate
"but you need a silencer as it makes a loud crack"
My understanding is that a silencer on an airgun is illegal if it can be removed. LOL.....many airgun forums don't even allow discussion of silencers due to possible legal ramifications!
I was forgetting about stupid USA airgun laws - I'm in Britain/UK - we have stupid power level airgun laws, but silencers/moderators are not regulated - just that we have to buy them in person face to face and they cannot be purchased by mail order from a dealer
Yep....both the USA and UK are guilty of SOME stupid airgun rules!
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Burned on springers, and what do you do? Buy a springer! and a project gun at that ;D Had to razz you a little bit. ;)
I deserve it. If you saw an hw35 that wasn't completely trashed for $100 at the pawn shop, i bet you'd make a deal too!
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I don't get so much burnt out. Just wish I could afford something really high end !. But hey; who doesn't... :D
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Burned on springers, and what do you do? Buy a springer! and a project gun at that ;D Had to razz you a little bit. ;)
I deserve it. If you saw an hw35 that wasn't completely trashed for $100 at the pawn shop, i bet you'd make a deal too!
Interesting, my second adult springer was a .177 HW35 that I bought after selling a .177 HW50 decades ago. When I had the HW35 it was re-sprung with a new Maccari spring kit and the piston was replaced with a new piston bought from Beeman that had a synthetic piston seal rather than the origional leather seal. After the spring and piston replacement the "35" shot .177 RWS SuperDomes (the most accurate pellet from that gun) at only 680 fps.
After about 15 years with the HW35, being annoyed with it's lack of "power relative to weight and cocking effort", I bought a Beeman R10. LOL........the R10 I found that it shot 8 grain pellets 100fps faster than the HW35 with similar cocking effort and it didn't seem to be any heavier than the "35". The R10 it was also considerably more useful for squirrel hunting than the HW35 so the "35" sat unused in a closet for a few years till I took it to the Mid Atlantic Airgun Show that used to be held at the Damascus, MD Issac Walton League where the DIFTA field target matches are held.
I noticed a fellow shooting a beat up looking HW35 at the "try it out range" and he wasn't very impressed with that beater considering the price. I mentioned that I wanted to sell my old HW35 and had it in the car if he wanted to tty it out. He took a couple shots with my Maccari sprung/synthetic sealed HW35 and paid me my asking $150 in cash on the spot.
LOL....there is a big following for that classic break barrel but I really don't know why! ::)
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Burned on springers, and what do you do? Buy a springer! and a project gun at that ;D Had to razz you a little bit. ;)
I deserve it. If you saw an hw35 that wasn't completely trashed for $100 at the pawn shop, i bet you'd make a deal too!
Interesting, my second adult springer was a .177 HW35 that I bought after selling a .177 HW50 decades ago. When I had the HW35 it was re-sprung with a new Maccari spring kit and the piston was replaced with a new piston bought from Beeman that had a synthetic piston seal rather than the origional leather seal. After the spring and piston replacement the "35" shot .177 RWS SuperDomes (the most accurate pellet from that gun) at only 680 fps.
After about 15 years with the HW35, being annoyed with it's lack of "power relative to weight and cocking effort", I bought a Beeman R10. LOL........the R10 I found that it shot 8 grain pellets 100fps faster than the HW35 with similar cocking effort and it didn't seem to be any heavier than the "35". The R10 it was also considerably more useful for squirrel hunting than the HW35 so the "35" sat unused in a closet for a few years till I took it to the Mid Atlantic Airgun Show that used to be held at the Damascus, MD Issac Walton League where the DIFTA field target matches are held.
I noticed a fellow shooting a beat up looking HW35 at the "try it out range" and he wasn't very impressed with that beater considering the price. I mentioned that I wanted to sell my old HW35 and had it in the car if he wanted to tty it out. He took a couple shots with my Maccari sprung/synthetic sealed HW35 and paid me my asking $150 in cash on the spot.
LOL....there is a big following for that classic break barrel but I really don't know why! ::)
I am beginning to see why. I am falling in love with it. I like it so much, I might have to find another one
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Burned on springers, and what do you do? Buy a springer! and a project gun at that ;D Had to razz you a little bit. ;)
I deserve it. If you saw an hw35 that wasn't completely trashed for $100 at the pawn shop, i bet you'd make a deal too!
No really I am very happy for you. It is a very nice find. I just had to give you a little fun. Matter of fact I sort of find myself desiring a HW30s. So I totally understand.
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I am beginning to see why. I am falling in love with it. I like it so much, I might have to find another one
A properly functioning HW will often cure the springer blues.
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Verdict is still out on just how proper it functions, lol. I'll get back to ya'll on that. Soon as I get a chance to shoot some groups
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Burned on springers, and what do you do? Buy a springer! and a project gun at that ;D Had to razz you a little bit. ;)
I deserve it. If you saw an hw35 that wasn't completely trashed for $100 at the pawn shop, i bet you'd make a deal too!
After the spring and piston replacement the "35" shot .177 RWS SuperDomes (the most accurate pellet from that gun) at only 680 fps.
You should have then re-upgraded it to a leather seal. I think it's pretty well established that going to a synthetic seal will drop power in an old 35 if you don't fiddle with the transfer port.
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Burned on springers, and what do you do? Buy a springer! and a project gun at that ;D Had to razz you a little bit. ;)
I deserve it. If you saw an hw35 that wasn't completely trashed for $100 at the pawn shop, i bet you'd make a deal too!
After the spring and piston replacement the "35" shot .177 RWS SuperDomes (the most accurate pellet from that gun) at only 680 fps.
You should have then re-upgraded it to a leather seal. I think it's pretty well established that going to a synthetic seal will drop power in an old 35 if you don't fiddle with the transfer port.
Problem with the leather seal was the fact that the velocity of the gun was rather unstable depending on the amount of oil in the seal. LOL....Beeman recommended a couple drops of "compression chamber oil" down the transfer port every tin of pellets. The synthetic piston seal gave a more stable velocity and more consistent poi. I didn't own a chrony before buying the synthetic sealed piston but it didn't seem the velocity was higher with the leather seal except when it was freshly oiled and dieseling.
Anywhoo......that was when I was new to springers so I called Jim Maccari (Beeman tech support recommended I talk to "The Spring Man") about increasing the velocity of my HW35 with a stronger spring, I was told that there wasn't much that could be done without making the shot cycle very harsh due to the short stroke large diameter 30mm receiver. I'm thinking that the HW35 was simply "ill suited" for my airgunning which was largely squirrel hunting and "bird feeder protection" when living in West Virginia. Matter of fact, I had a raccoon breaking apart a bird feeder and a shot from the HW35 right above the eyes didn't even seem to bother the bandit. It even hung on the feeder giving me another shot that glanced off the angular head, then it left the bird feeder.
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I am beginning to see why. I am falling in love with it. I like it so much, I might have to find another one
A properly functioning HW will often cure the springer blues.
truer words were never spoken. :D
haha
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A properly functioning HW will often cure the springer blues.
Well said!
Tight groups,
Bob
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I had similar problems in life... starting with untuned Gamos, then tuned Gamos, gas rams, Cometas... they all shot ok but demanded more from me than I could give, and finally I bought myself a tuned HW95. So far best trigger and least hold sensitive.
Ha I should have started there, but it's been a great ride and play with a lot of rifles.
If you don't need high hunting power levels then a tuned HW30 would be a treat.
I also have a modded Crosman 2250, but but if I wanted a completely self contained system for plinking I'd get a Crosman 1300KT multipump and you're on tinker heaven :) or one of those Daisy 753 single stroke pneumatics with a trigger job but the $$ are more.
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I got a 397pa, older one with the white accent in the buttstock. I like it alot, still love the hw35 as well :)
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Long live pumpers ;D It is nice to be able to adjust the output power for the location and the pest to be shot.
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I love the look and feel of benjamin pumpers. I imagine a true vintage sheridan would be pretty doggone sweet.
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Long live pumpers ;D It is nice to be able to adjust the output power for the location and the pest to be shot.
LOL....I have enough trouble keeping track of the trajectory of my .177 HW95 at one power level and I can't imagine having to keep track of the trajectories of multiple power levels!
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Just read this entire thread and I am again convinced that I made the right decision a couple of days ago when I ordered a Diana 34 instead of my first PCP.
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Just read this entire thread and I am again convinced that I made the right decision a couple of days ago when I ordered a Diana 34 instead of my first PCP.
I'd definitely take a diana 34 over any pcp at the same price point. Hope you are enjoying the new rifle.
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I have total respect for anyone who shoot them as their main gun. At least people who decided to knowing other options and didn't just buy the fastest wally world gun they saw.
I have one. It can be shot well and I have it to humble me every few weeks.
Hatsan Supertac 25 ram gun in .177. It seems to like the RWS heavy w/c best so thats my excuse for shooting it at paper only at 10m. or plinking out to 25yd I had the scope rails notched across like a weaver. It was the only way to keep the offset one piece scope mount from crawling. Pretty strong for a little carbine. It does it's part and keeps me honest. It seems like every time I shoot it I shoot my stored air guns better afterwards. Plus I love carbines and breakdown guns.
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At 73, I just bought aother one....
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I enjoy shooting my springers and will continue to shoot my springers for the same reason as others here. They remind me to focus on the important basics of good marksmanship. Also because they keep me humble. ::) ;D ;D
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I'm so burned out on springers that I bought another LH FWB 300S.
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Just read this entire thread and I am again convinced that I made the right decision a couple of days ago when I ordered a Diana 34 instead of my first PCP.
Great gun! But you’re just postponing the inevitable! ;D ;D ;D
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Late to the party here but I'm a casual plinker at heart. I just want the pellet to go where I point the gun without having to figure out how to make that happen. I get the artillery hold and all but there is a good deal of finesse beyond that simplistic description of how to shoot a springer accurately. I have found.....for me... that I figure out how to shoot a springer well and then have to relearn how to shoot my other guns. And the cycle repeats. Long ago I decided to limit myself to pumpers and Co2 powered guns. No offense to all the springer lovers. Just my couple of cents.
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As previously stated by myself and others the thing about springers is the overall need to master the finer points of good marksmanship. I enjoy my Co2 and PCP rifles immensely or I would not own them but just having a rifle that is accurate and easy to shoot well does not require the same level of focus that springer does so mastering a springer just makes the "money" shots easier to make when shooting other rifles.
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Just read this entire thread and I am again convinced that I made the right decision a couple of days ago when I ordered a Diana 34 instead of my first PCP.
Great gun! But you’re just postponing the inevitable! ;D ;D ;D
I haven't given in yet!
Amidst a crowd of men who are great shooters, and trying to tempt me into coming over to the dark side, I remain a committed springer girl! :D
Lol
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Like I said Lizzie..R E S P E C T
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Just read this entire thread and I am again convinced that I made the right decision a couple of days ago when I ordered a Diana 34 instead of my first PCP.
Great gun! But you’re just postponing the inevitable! ;D ;D ;D
I haven't given in yet!
Amidst a crowd of men who are great shooters, and trying to tempt me into coming over to the dark side, I remain a committed springer girl! :D
Lol
;) ;D Nothing wrong with liking springers as a springer fan I love them for the humility they teach me. Springers are like all relationships the more you invest the more you get back.
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From the perspective of a rank newbie...
I got my first 'springer', a Benjamin Mayhem, actualy a piston but similar.
After having shot a pumper (1322) and a Co2 Diana Chaser I was not really 'ready' for the difference.
I was really surprised at what it took to shoot the Mayhem well. The first time I shot it KAPOW! (factory oil dieseling) and the recoil caught me completely off guard. "Holy cow!" I said to myself... But I was hooked really like the gun its action and consistency.
The only downside is that after about 30 rounds or so I really had to take a break and not overdo it and end up spraining muscles I am not used to using in that manner. Its getting better now but still have some sore muscles after a lengthy session.
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This will be my choice for my 4-wheeler gun. I'll order the brackets and it will go where I go.
This is a Hatsan Stryker 1000x in .177 chopped and mounted in a Webley VMX stock. I bedded the action in 1/8 closed cell foam and it responds great. I cut a coil or two off the spring and tuned it up. The drab green matches the Kodiak like it was born on it and the synthetic stock makes it very woods friendly.
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Just read this entire thread and I am again convinced that I made the right decision a couple of days ago when I ordered a Diana 34 instead of my first PCP.
Great gun! But you’re just postponing the inevitable! ;D ;D ;D
I haven't given in yet!
Amidst a crowd of men who are great shooters, and trying to tempt me into coming over to the dark side, I remain a committed springer girl! :D
Lol
As a fellow Texan I have to say I will remain in the springer camp as long as it pleases me but I don't think we are alone.
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I haven't given in yet!
Amidst a crowd of men who are great shooters, and trying to tempt me into coming over to the dark side, I remain a committed springer girl! :D
Lol
As a fellow Texan I have to say I will remain in the springer camp as long as it pleases me but I don't think we are alone.
[/quote]
I would add that as long as I can get good quality springers, I expect I will be almost exclusively shooting springers, and other than that, an occasional pumper.
So far, I have just not had the urge to (or interest in) pcp or co2.
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Not sure what "good quality" is but I have to say the new Diana 34 is a sweetheart. Don't yet have anything but the stock fiber optic sights but today I was able to hit a 2" spinner at about 25 yards. Didn't hit every shot but had far better success than I thought I would.
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Excellent Rick!
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I have to admit, my favorite is a springer, my beat up hw35 :)
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For a long time, the only springer I had in the house was the FWB 300S. Then I got a Beeman R9. It wasn't long before the two of them got together and gave birth to an R7!
One look at my equipment list below will tell you that springers have a lot in common with rabbits.
There is a rumor running around the springer crowd that one of them may give birth to a Pro Sport. They're taking bets on whether it's going to be a .22 or a .177.
Some of us were hoping it would be a pre-me but it looks like it might be a late-term delivery.
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I’m a vintage collector and to understand why the love for springers, it helps to go back in time to the 1950’s. Try a Webley Mark 3, Diana 50, BSA Mark 1 or 2. These were made by craftsmen of another age, when power wasn’t even thought about. They are wonderful works of machining art. The last 20 years has ruined Springers by the endless pursuit of power, in the hands of CNC manufacturers. Your left at Walmart with cheap uncontrollable rifles. The PCP fits this environment cause there is less need for a finely machined powerplant and higher power fits the modern mentality. More power has to be good?
Give me grace and 6-10 FPE.
(https://i.imgur.com/JcLqV7q.jpg)
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Yeah Bryan,
Back in 2015 I was kinda burned out on Springers. I had just finished tuning about 15 different Hatsan models and was not overwhelmed by their fit & finish, and my shooting with them.
So I went over to the Dark side for about a year and had great fun tuning and shooting various rifles.
I never intended to go back to Springers period, because PCP are superior shooting machines - right ;).
To make a long story short, I went to Arizona in 2016 to care for my Mother in Sun City. I was there for about 2 months with nothing to do for fun. So I went down to Airguns of Arizona and bought a .177 HW35E. I pick-out one with a beautiful stock and refinished it in my hotel room using dollar store sandpaper and Tru-oil.
I took the gun to a local range and was amazed how well it shot with a Williams peep sight at 50 yards.
Plus, the gun is a mechanical masterpiece. Wind forward 2 years, I now have almost the entire line of Weilrauch airguns and really don't shoot my PCP's that much anymore. I realized, I'm more of a mechanical tinkerier and enjoy working on and shooting the fine German airguns best.
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Been following this thread since it started, and refrained from replying because I didn’t want to appear to be bragging on my “high dollar springers”. But... Someone else mentioned the Air Arms Pro-Sport. Well, I own two walnut variations in .177 & .22. In no way am I burned out on these beautiful spring powered air rifles. Pictures below include 20 yard target (mix of single and 5 shot groups), the .22 (top), .177 (bottom), and chronograph results. They love .22 Predator GTO (11.75gr) & .177 AA Diabolo Field Heavy (10.34gr), both Vortek SHO tuned with Hawke scopes. They’ll shoot the same groups at 45 yards. It’s not bragging when its the truth...
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No AA's guns here but they certainly seem to be quite nice. I have 2 Walther's (1 LGV and 1 LGU) and both are extremely accurate and well made. Also have a Diana 460 and HW97KTS and both are very nice as well. Shooting PCP's more frequently as time goes by since they are newer to me but it's good to know I can pick up one of the springers, cock it, and hit exactly what I shoot at.
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One look at my equipment list below will tell you that springers have a lot in common with rabbits.
... when you shoot them they shake? ;)
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My only comments to this thread was to remind folks "if you get a good Springer, they shoot better and are more user friendly". Hence, burnout is less common, but we airgun nuts need variety, so PCP's are usually in the mix too. There are a number of good knock-off Chinese clones, that with a little TLC can be great too :D.
Plus, Springers constantly challenge you to be alert or everything falls apart quickly.
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The photo says it all...
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One look at my equipment list below will tell you that springers have a lot in common with rabbits.
... when you shoot them they shake? ;)
I would not call it a shake. It's sort of like a dog when it wags it tail. Just like a dog that wants to go for a walk, they like to be shot. That's not a good analogy but the best that I can think of now.
In the interest of full disclosure; I've said it numerous times. I have a love-hate relationship with the Beeman/Weihrauch line of springers. I've had to work on everyone of them right out of the box but once they are tuned, they are phenomenal.
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One look at my equipment list below will tell you that springers have a lot in common with rabbits.
... when you shoot them they shake? ;)
I would not call it a shake. It's sort of like a dog when it wags it tail. Just like a dog that wants to go for a walk, they like to be shot. That's not a good analogy but the best that I can think of now.
In the interest of full disclosure; I've said it numerous times. I have a love-hate relationship with the Beeman/Weihrauch line of springers. I've had to work on everyone of them right out of the box but once they are tuned, they are phenomenal.
They are worth the effort!
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Beautiful guns 45flint.
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The photo says it all...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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I’m a vintage collector and to understand why the love for springers, it helps to go back in time to the 1950’s. Try a Webley Mark 3, Diana 50, BSA Mark 1 or 2. These were made by craftsmen of another age, when power wasn’t even thought about. They are wonderful works of machining art. The last 20 years has ruined Springers by the endless pursuit of power, in the hands of CNC manufacturers. Your left at Walmart with cheap uncontrollable rifles. The PCP fits this environment cause there is less need for a finely machined powerplant and higher power fits the modern mentality. More power has to be good?
Give me grace and 6-10 FPE.
(https://i.imgur.com/JcLqV7q.jpg)
Ahhh this makes sense. All the springers I’ve tried are modern POS! Thanks for leading me down the right path. Beautiful rifles btw;)
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I’m a vintage collector and to understand why the love for springers, it helps to go back in time to the 1950’s. Try a Webley Mark 3, Diana 50, BSA Mark 1 or 2. These were made by craftsmen of another age, when power wasn’t even thought about. They are wonderful works of machining art. The last 20 years has ruined Springers by the endless pursuit of power, in the hands of CNC manufacturers. Your left at Walmart with cheap uncontrollable rifles. The PCP fits this environment cause there is less need for a finely machined powerplant and higher power fits the modern mentality. More power has to be good?
Give me grace and 6-10 FPE.
(https://i.imgur.com/JcLqV7q.jpg)
Ahhh this makes sense. All the springers I’ve tried are modern POS! Thanks for leading me down the right path. Beautiful rifles btw;)
"All the springers I’ve tried are modern POS!"
Hummmm.....I've been buying HW springers for a few decades starting with a HW50 (no safety at all) which was sold to help finance a new leather sealed HW35. I then bought a Beeman R10 and then several Beeman R9s over the years.
More recently (perhaps a decade ago) I bought a new .177 Beeman R9 and found it to have several redesigns including a bolt on bracket that included the front stock mounting threads and the fixed barrel latching detent instead of the un-removable the fixed detent of the older R9s, a different method of securing the barrel to the barrel pivot block, a cocking shoe that was supported on the cocking shoe slot instead of the piston liner and a redesigned piston seal that didn't use a thin edged parachute seal. Actually, function, fit and finish was better than any of the older R9s I bought in the past. Then I bought a new HW95 a few years ago and found the same design improvements as the R9, however the fit of the parts was even better. My personal opinion of the newer Beeman R9 and HW95 is that they perform better than they did in the "good old days". If I were buying another HW springer I would opt for a new HW95 rather than an "old design" used HW95!
Here are a few examples of old HW95 construction vs new HW95 construction (the R9 is simply a rebadged HW95 with different "furniture").
Old design..........
Piston seal progression
(https://i.imgur.com/XX8uJiMl.jpg)
Old piston seal with factory installation damage........
(https://i.imgur.com/giVrFTel.jpg)
Here is a new HW95 piston after shooting a box of CPLs. I do prefer oring sealed piston caps I make but I did test out the new HW piston seal design for comparison. I do have to say however that the newer design thick parachute edge is more critical of fit to the receiver than the old thin parachute edge design. When installing a couple new HW95 factory seals from my parts bin it was discovered that the molded seals can vary enough in diameter to create "seal to receiver fit issues" where one new seal can be rather loose fitting but a different new seal from my parts bin would fit the same receiver perfectly......
(https://i.imgur.com/oJW4NcVl.jpg)
Older vs newer methods of supporting the cocking shoe..........
Cocking shoe supported by the piston liner and what can happen with "ham fisted" cocking of a HW break barrel..........
(https://i.imgur.com/wNFzemEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/u9yH4c4l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/nv9vS1Gl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/unIoV5Ol.jpg)
Newer design cocking shoe supported by the edges of the receiver cocking shoe slot...........
(https://i.imgur.com/qmXua1gl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/2gbPqo0l.jpg)
The old and new barrel latching arrangement.........
Old design.........
In years past I've had the rather thin "stock mounting welded on tab" threads strip out with use which needed repair. LOL....part of my HW home repair work was fixing stripped holes for owners.........
(https://i.imgur.com/qAbAlCfl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/HmbX93El.jpg)
Newer HW95 barrel latching design..........
I've never had the deeper threads of one of these sintered metal brackets strip out, if they did the solution would be to replace a bracket rather than a whole receiver tube. Years ago Beeman replaced the receiver tube of my brother's R9 because the fixed detent wore very rapidly due to a sharp burr on the spring loaded detent which "machined away" a bit of metal with each unlatching and relatching of the barrel when shooting.......
(https://i.imgur.com/seYutY8l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/DbZKCWll.jpg)
Older method of securing the barrel to the barrel pivot block..........
(https://i.imgur.com/b4CEdI7l.jpg)
Newer method of securing the barrel to the barrel pivot block with a lock nut rather than a dowel pin (well, I can't SEE a dowel pin in the new design, could be wrong here :o)..........
(https://i.imgur.com/aI9sZmLl.jpg)
Here are my two HW springers, a .177 Beeman R9 and a .177 HW95, both are superior to the old design R9s of the past..........
(https://i.imgur.com/eHEAp7ol.jpg)
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Been lurking for a long time but now posting to get notifications of updates... Gotta go.
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I only meant the ones that I’ve tried which are Gamo, Crosman, etc...you know, true POS springers. :P
Thanks a lot for all that info to go on. This thread is packed full of good stuff.
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I only meant the ones that I’ve tried which are Gamo, Crosman, etc...you know, true POS springers. :P
Thanks a lot for all that info to go on. This thread is packed full of good stuff.
Hummmmm.....I do know what you mean because I once owned a .177 Crosman Quest 1000 break barrel and after a lot of internal work plus a trigger insert I was able to reduce the 1 1/2" ctc @ 30 yards accuracy down to an still unacceptable 1" ctc @ 30 yards. I figured that the problem was the fact that the Quest was a Chinese clone of a Gamo220 so I bought a new Gamo 440 on sale. LOL....the "sales pitch" in the Gamo literature claimed "1/4" accuracy at 30 yards" but the best I got was 1" CTC at that distance. Being very annoyed I literally "land filled" both the Quest and Gamo out of disgust.
LOL.....at that time I bought two Cummins Truckload sale Chinese B3s for &19.95 each, cobbled together one B3 from the best parts, made a few parts of my own like an oring sealed piston cap that increased the 8.4 grain JSB Exact velocity from 550fps to 700fps., and shot these 25 yard groups from that bore that was "rough as a corn cob"..........
Using factory irons.............
(https://i.imgur.com/5DINChKl.jpg)
After stripping off the factory sights and mounting a 6x Burris Compact scope that cost several times more than both B3s together.........
(https://i.imgur.com/PEzo26cl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/4HBPzQkl.jpg)
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I’m a vintage collector and to understand why the love for springers, it helps to go back in time to the 1950’s. Try a Webley Mark 3, Diana 50, BSA Mark 1 or 2. These were made by craftsmen of another age, when power wasn’t even thought about. They are wonderful works of machining art. The last 20 years has ruined Springers by the endless pursuit of power, in the hands of CNC manufacturers. Your left at Walmart with cheap uncontrollable rifles. The PCP fits this environment cause there is less need for a finely machined powerplant and higher power fits the modern mentality. More power has to be good?
Give me grace and 6-10 FPE.
(https://i.imgur.com/JcLqV7q.jpg)
Ahhh this makes sense. All the springers I’ve tried are modern POS! Thanks for leading me down the right path. Beautiful rifles btw;)
"All the springers I’ve tried are modern POS!"
Hummmm.....I've been buying HW springers for a few decades starting with a HW50 (no safety at all) which was sold to help finance a new leather sealed HW35. I then bought a Beeman R10 and then several Beeman R9s over the years.
More recently (perhaps a decade ago) I bought a new .177 Beeman R9 and found it to have several redesigns including a bolt on bracket that included the front stock mounting threads and the fixed barrel latching detent instead of the un-removable the fixed detent of the older R9s, a different method of securing the barrel to the barrel pivot block, a cocking shoe that was supported on the cocking shoe slot instead of the piston liner and a redesigned piston seal that didn't use a thin edged parachute seal. Actually, function, fit and finish was better than any of the older R9s I bought in the past. Then I bought a new HW95 a few years ago and found the same design improvements as the R9, however the fit of the parts was even better. My personal opinion of the newer Beeman R9 and HW95 is that they perform better than they did in the "good old days". If I were buying another HW springer I would opt for a new HW95 rather than an "old design" used HW95!
Here are a few examples of old HW95 construction vs new HW95 construction (the R9 is simply a rebadged HW95 with different "furniture").
Old design..........
Piston seal progression
(https://i.imgur.com/XX8uJiMl.jpg)
Old piston seal with factory installation damage........
(https://i.imgur.com/giVrFTel.jpg)
Here is a new HW95 piston after shooting a box of CPLs. I do prefer oring sealed piston caps I make but I did test out the new HW piston seal design for comparison. I do have to say however that the newer design thick parachute edge is more critical of fit to the receiver than the old thin parachute edge design. When installing a couple new HW95 factory seals from my parts bin it was discovered that the molded seals can vary enough in diameter to create "seal to receiver fit issues" where one new seal can be rather loose fitting but a different new seal from my parts bin would fit the same receiver perfectly......
(https://i.imgur.com/oJW4NcVl.jpg)
Older vs newer methods of supporting the cocking shoe..........
Cocking shoe supported by the piston liner and what can happen with "ham fisted" cocking of a HW break barrel..........
(https://i.imgur.com/wNFzemEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/u9yH4c4l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/nv9vS1Gl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/unIoV5Ol.jpg)
Newer design cocking shoe supported by the edges of the receiver cocking shoe slot...........
(https://i.imgur.com/qmXua1gl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/2gbPqo0l.jpg)
The old and new barrel latching arrangement.........
Old design.........
In years past I've had the rather thin "stock mounting welded on tab" threads strip out with use which needed repair. LOL....part of my HW home repair work was fixing stripped holes for owners.........
(https://i.imgur.com/qAbAlCfl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/HmbX93El.jpg)
Newer HW95 barrel latching design..........
I've never had the deeper threads of one of these sintered metal brackets strip out, if they did the solution would be to replace a bracket rather than a whole receiver tube. Years ago Beeman replaced the receiver tube of my brother's R9 because the fixed detent wore very rapidly due to a sharp burr on the spring loaded detent which "machined away" a bit of metal with each unlatching and relatching of the barrel when shooting.......
(https://i.imgur.com/seYutY8l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/DbZKCWll.jpg)
Older method of securing the barrel to the barrel pivot block..........
(https://i.imgur.com/b4CEdI7l.jpg)
Newer method of securing the barrel to the barrel pivot block with a lock nut rather than a dowel pin (well, I can't SEE a dowel pin in the new design, could be wrong here :o)..........
(https://i.imgur.com/aI9sZmLl.jpg)
Here are my two HW springers, a .177 Beeman R9 and a .177 HW95, both are superior to the old design R9s of the past..........
(https://i.imgur.com/eHEAp7ol.jpg)
I think my post was taken a little too literally in that my main point was that these older Springers were designed with little concern about power and thus were much easier and fun to shoot. But to your point you really didn’t go back far enough. I don’t think of any R-9 as “vintage”? My “vintage” guns have leather seals which still work perfectly after 60 years. It’s absurd to say vast improments haven’t been made to spring Airguns. But I’m not sure most people reading this have ever had a 1950’s Webley Mark 3 in their hands, I didn’t tell last month. Just the hand fitted tap loader precision will tell you something is a bit different here. Similar to holding a older blued Colt Python vs. a new stainless Smith and Wesson.
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"I’m a vintage collector and to understand why the love for springers, it helps to go back in time to the 1950’s"
and
"The last 20 years has ruined Springers by the endless pursuit of power, in the hands of CNC manufacturers"
Hummmm....I'd rather DRIVE my modern Honda Civic than owning a "hand made Ford Model T" that's only driven at parades! ;D
Different strokes for different folks for sure!
Decades ago I owned a leather sealed HW35 that (for me) was too heavy and the cocking effort was too hard for the piddly 8fpe output. It was replaced with a Beeman R10 that weighed less, had similar cocking effort but shot .177 cal pellets 100 fps faster. The fact that the R10 was also more accurate at distance due to a flatter trajectory was appreciated.
As far as "endless pursuit of power"........It's all a matter of "form follows function"! 6-10fpe vintage springers wouldn't be very effective if used for shooting a field target course (or even squirrel hunting where "flatness of the trajectory" can come into play), however I'm guessing that they're perfect for shooting paper targets in the parlor (of if all shots are rather close).
In general, I do agree that the "fps race" has been detrimental to springer development to the point that "springers of dubious quality"
are advertised to shoot "1000 fps", as if that's all that matters!
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How about a .22 that advertises "up to" 1,100 fps but in reality is delivering around 800?
I suppose that if I put a 10 grain pellet in there it might approach 1,000fps on a good day.
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i once challenged crosman on that and the response is that everyone does it, so...
I told them at least Hatsan does not do it and he would not believe me
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Ah Ah Ahhhh... Tisk tisk.
Hatsan advertised with "real pellets" but when I got my model 95 I paid extra for the 10 for 10 test and it came in 20% under... Even with lighter pellets PA used!
Hatsan said "that's acceptable." :o
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Ahh, I guess crosman knows better than me then
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Not flaming you Greg!
My point is, I too dislike the "Unobtainable" FPS claims airgun manufactures advertise.
But especially when they claim theirs is "real world" and everyone else is inflated... until the truth is known and you call them out on it for assistance.
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Not flaming you Greg!
My point is, I too dislike the "Unobtainable" FPS claims airgun manufactures advertise.
But especially when they claim theirs is "real world" and everyone else is inflated... until the truth is known and you call them out on it for assistance.
The "claimed fps" is an interesting issue that must be included to sell the gun to new shooters (or so it seems) . For example, here are the .177 HW95 specs listed by one vendor..............
"Velocity Up to 950 fps"
LOL....I never believed the "950 fps" to begin with when using 7.9 grain boxed Crosman Premiers, but at least the vendor info added the "fuzzy words Up to"for a lot of wiggle room if the actual velocity was questioned.
The last .177 HW95 I bought shot 7.9 grain boxed Crosman Premier domes at 880fps straight from the box in "factory twang mode". Funny thing is that I don't want/need that high of velocity so the gun was broken down and detuned to shoot the 7.9s at 860fps which I feel is just about a perfect velocity for a 7 1/2 pound springer (LOL, before adding about two pounds of scope and mounts). This is a far cry from when I resided in West Virginia using a .177 R9 with a Bushnell multi-x reticled scope. At that time my .177 R9s were tuned to shoot 7.9 grain CPLs at 910ish fps simply so the reticle matched my pellet trajectory when zero'd at 30 yards and using "hold over aiming" for longer and intermediate distances. I still use holdover aiming however the "dotted reticle" I currently use allows me to use a more "shooter friendly less hold sensitive" tune level of about 13ish fpe.
LOL......just for fun I went to Amazon and did a search for "1000fps air rifles" and this was the result...........
https://www.amazon.com/s/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_keywords_6?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A3395161%2Ck%3A1000+Fps+Air+Rifle%2Cp_n_feature_keywords_three_browse-bin%3A7801840011&keywords=1000+Fps+Air+Rifle&ie=UTF8&qid=1537412903&rnid=7801833011 (https://www.amazon.com/s/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_keywords_6?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A3395161%2Ck%3A1000+Fps+Air+Rifle%2Cp_n_feature_keywords_three_browse-bin%3A7801840011&keywords=1000+Fps+Air+Rifle&ie=UTF8&qid=1537412903&rnid=7801833011)
LOL....there was even a $44.84 Crosman PUMPER that had the velocity listed as "Velocity: up to 1000 FPS (alloy pellets)/up to 800 FPS BBs". :o ;D ;D ::)
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Not flaming you Greg!
My point is, I too dislike the "Unobtainable" FPS claims airgun manufactures advertise.
But especially when they claim theirs is "real world" and everyone else is inflated... until the truth is known and you call them out on it for assistance.
Scott, no problem. I do mean Crosman may know better than me, unfortunately. I was under impression that Hatsan is honest based on what people say in the forum. I had the AT44 that works fine as advertised. But I guess Hatsan has to compete with those inflated numbers...
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Hatsan got a good start on honest velocity claims. The guns were/are built to achieve them for the most part, which is why their springers are typically oversprung boat anchors with huge compression tubes. I guess with some models, they must have inflated the listed numbers to remain competitive with gamo, crosman, etc.
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I guess it is similar to telescope manufacturers putting beautiful color images on their boxes, where there is no way you will see that sort of detail through the scope.
To sell the product.
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(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z71/Shutterbug_album/I%20Make%20It%20a%20Springer_zpsinowf5ra.jpg)
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;D
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When I got back into AG's five years ago I was shooting a Daisy Steel breech 880 that was gifted to my by a senior citizen that had an emergency no heat call at 2am back in 2005. It sat in my basement untouched for a couple years then one rainy Sunday I set up a target in my basement and the rest is history. My point is that many of us start out knowing nothing about this sport other than we all seem to enjoy shooting . Most of us can put what we know about AG's at the beginning of this journey that we share on the back or a postage stamp.
Then we find the GTA and the true journey begins. ;D ;D
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When I got back into AG's five years ago [...]
Then we find the GTA and the true journey begins. ;D ;D
Wow, Don, do I understand you right -- you found GTA 5 years ago?
If that is so, you have had quite a journey...!
With 12,952 post to date (and counting) –– that's just about 7 posts every single day for the 1,825 days of those 5 years....!
Congrats to your dedication. 8)
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I guess you could say I just love my AG's and the forum allows me to share and learn at the same time
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Thanks for sharing, I've learned quite a bit from you already.
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Thanks for sharing, I've learned quite a bit from you already.
+1
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When I got back into AG's five years ago [...]
Then we find the GTA and the true journey begins. ;D ;D
Wow, Don, do I understand you right -- you found GTA 5 years ago?
If that is so, you have had quite a journey...!
With 12,952 post to date (and counting) –– that's just about 7 posts every single day for the 1,825 days of those 5 years....!
Congrats to your dedication. 8)
Let me just say this about that.....
When I got here somewhere around 5 years ago Don was already here. We soon found out we had more in common than just airguns. We made a trade for (I think) a 392 for a Panther 34. Don surprised us when he gifted that same m/m 880 in the box with the P34. Betty Lou snagged it up instantly and she's been kicking my butt with it in competition ever since. I'm not sure if there is magic in that 880 or if it's a curse but one thing is for sure, it's been a heck of a ride.
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I got the nicest airgun I own from Don...
One HECK of an enabler Mod!!!
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Yep, look up "pay it forward" in the dictionary... pretty sure you'll find a reference to "The Don".