GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: lizzie on May 22, 2018, 08:14:24 PM
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I recently acquired a vintage R1 in .20 caliber, and I LOVE the gun! (Thank you Geoffrey!)
As most of us know, air rifles in the "magnum" class are scope killers, and besides being killers, they are also scope migratory enablers- haha.
This gun has the capability of being a One-Ragged-Hole classic, as I can tell, having only had it for a week tomorrow, and most of that time, having been out of town for the fun shoot.
The trigger is light and crisp (actually a little lighter than my preference), and she's heavy and solid.
No complaints about the gun at all.
The problem I am having is nothing new to most of us, but seems worse on this gun than most of my others. The scope migrates appreciably and gradually, in spite of having a nice one-piece mount, which I have tightened several times. It still wants to move.
One of the things I like about the old Dianas with the T05 trigger, is the scope rail...it facilitates locking down the scope with minimal effort.
Okay....now to the question-
Can a gunsmith drill scope stop hole(s) on the scope rail without causing any damage to the gun itself?
I've never had any work done by a gunsmith, and I know that they can do so on PB's (I remember the hubs having that done at one time many years ago), but I am also aware that the steel used on air rifles tends to not be quite as hard or tough as that of PB's...at least that is my understanding, based on multiple sources I have read over the years.
Is there something else I am not thinking of that would be a good fix or solution?
I retightened the scope mount down, took it out to shoot just a few shots, and I could already see that is has moved.
Sigh.....
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Be careful, my experience has been that "gun smiths" (at least in my area) see air guns as toys, and don't take them seriously at all. One way ticket to a botch-job and heart-ache, this I learned the hard way...Try to stick with guys who do actual air gun repair. Plenty of guys 'round this here forum. Best of luck!
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Excellent advice Jeff- thank you!
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Lizzie,
There are these:
https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Airgun-Recoil/dp/B002KJFAZY (https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Airgun-Recoil/dp/B002KJFAZY)
But without a stop hole I don't think they'll be better than what you already have. Is your scope rail removable? I'm not familiar with your rifle.
Taso
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Don't take an Air Gun to a GunSmith that never worked on Air Guns!
It's 2 different Worlds.
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Lizzie,
There are these:
https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Airgun-Recoil/dp/B002KJFAZY (https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Airgun-Recoil/dp/B002KJFAZY)
But without a stop hole I don't think they'll be better than what you already have. Is your scope rail removable? I'm not familiar with your rifle.
Taso
No- not removable.
The scope rail on the R1's is very similar to dealing with one of the Gamo scope rails.
Slick and smooth as can be, and no stops of any kind cut into the steel, as I have seen on a few guns.
The photo below of the entire gun isn't mind- it's just to give you an idea of what the gun is.
The other two photos, I took a few minutes ago.
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I've heard of some people using loctite on the rails where the dove-tail attaches and between the scope tube and straps I'm not sure how this would actually work, I'm guessing in the same way it locks threads down. Superglue might do the same work, but I wouldn't trust it between the scope straps and the tube.
I don't think you'd have a problem with drilling a hole as far as structural integrity goes. That steel may not be as tough as PB's steel, but it's still tough enough to hold the spring in under compression with pins bolted through it.
On the other hand, I've seen the screws themselves take some damage, get bent, jump out of the hole and gouge up the receiver. So they may not really be the solution you need. Maybe ask nced, I know he posted some pictures of a gouged scope stop on one of his Beeman R*s and his actually has 3 holes in line. I'm not sure if that was because it needed 3, or if it was just for more configuration options.
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Thanks SKJB! Great idea! (to ask nced)
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Have you measured the rail? It might be smaller than the rings can clamp. Another thing to look at is how fully the clamps seat in the grooves. A little file work to make the clamps fill the grooves completely should give more surface area to allow friction to keep them from sliding. I mean filing on the clamps and not on the gun, jic... ;)
Just some things to look at. Rings are cheaper than a new gun. Hope this helps.
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It does help, Terry. Thanks!
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I had a similar problem with my first break barrel/scope combo, only it wallowed out the stop hole. The rings were only clamping to the center and top of the grooves. I took me a couple of weeks to file them to fill the whole groove, but when I finished they didn't slide. I left the filed areas slightly rough to let the marks dig in and help with the holding. I spent too much time on that tomato stake before I found this site and realized there were real airguns out there... 😁
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Hahahah :D
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Lizzie,
Maybe these Millett Tip-Off rings may work:
https://www.amazon.com/Millett-Smooth-Angle-Loc-Windage-Adjustable/dp/B003ISZM86/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1527042064&sr=8-2&keywords=Millett+Angle-Loc++Tip-Off (https://www.amazon.com/Millett-Smooth-Angle-Loc-Windage-Adjustable/dp/B003ISZM86/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1527042064&sr=8-2&keywords=Millett+Angle-Loc++Tip-Off)
The only problem is getting them centered as the left and right sides adjust independently.
Taso
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Interesting Taso! I've not seen nor heard of those before...I will check around on them. It would be great if they worked for this particular problem!
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There are 3/8" rails and 11 mm rails. They are dimensionally close but quite different. One is cut at 45 degrees and the other at sixty. Many scope mounts have one removable side plate. If you have one of these see which projections fits better into your dovetail. That is the one to use for scope mounting.
My Diana 35 was plagued with a wandering scope. As I'm sure you're aware that was made before Diana began using the add on rail so there is no place for a mount with a toe and of course no scope stop holes. I cleaned the grooves and the mount well with a degreaser (or maybe just alcohol, I don't remember), applied Loctite in the grooves, and installed the mount. I then torqued it to thirty inch pounds. My scope has stayed put ever since.
One key part of the procedure is to use a torque wrench to tighten the mount making sure all screws are tightened evenly. I start at the center and work out tightening five to ten inch pounds at a time, kind of like torquing the head on an engine.
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I had used red loctite on the scope rail on my HW90. I never had a problem with the scope moving after I did that.
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I would use super glue (it's clear) or lock tight, but also have used finger nail polish. Lot's of color choices there.
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So, you guys are saying you just put loctite down into the dovetail groove, and place the scope mount, essentially "bedded down" into it?
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Lizzie, looking at your photos there is no scope rail on your gun, just grooves. The only way to put a stop pin on that gun is to drill into the compression tube. Please don't do that. The steel is not thick enough to be effective, apart other obvious bad points.
The add on scope stop that you have been referred to do work, better on a two piece mount because you can put one behind each mount. In your case it may not work too well because you might have to move the single piece mount too far forward to get room for the additional scope stop. Maybe not.
Gamo make an alloy scope rail that goes on the grooves in the compression tube and it can be drilled for a stop pin where ever you want it. The rail clamps on and the mounts clamp on top of it. It is good and does not move. It raises the scope about 5 mms/ 1/4 inch. I think other outfits make them as well as an accessory. Gamo and Weihrauch have 11 mm groves so it should fit.
I am going over to Wainuiomata for some Gamo bits in the next couple of days and will see if Mr Gamo has one lying in the treasure bin.
Some of the stop pins on scope mounts are too thin and I have had them break off but it is easy to put in a more substantial pin.
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Lizzie, looking at your photos there is no scope rail on your gun, just grooves. The only way to put a stop pin on that gun is to drill into the compression tube. Please don't do that. The steel is not thick enough to be effective, apart other obvious bad points.
The add on scope stop that you have been referred to do work, better on a two piece mount because you can put one behind each mount. In your case it may not work too well because you might have to move the single piece mount too far forward to get room for the additional scope stop. Maybe not.
Gamo make an alloy scope rail that goes on the grooves in the compression tube and it can be drilled for a stop pin where ever you want it. The rail clamps on and the mounts clamp on top of it. It is good and does not move. It raises the scope about 5 mms/ 1/4 inch. I think other outfits make them as well as an accessory. Gamo and Weihrauch have 11 mm groves so it should fit.
I am going over to Wainuiomata for some Gamo bits in the next couple of days and will see if Mr Gamo has one lying in the treasure bin.
Some of the stop pins on scope mounts are too thin and I have had them break off but it is easy to put in a more substantial pin.
Thanks! And you're right....I realized after having posted, that I had misspoken and called the dovetail grooves a rail- not thinking!
I prefer a rail, as it's much easier to deal with, and superior in performance (imo).
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Lizzie...you could also try a Bullseye ZR Scope Mount. The one in the picture blow is mine and is made for a picatinny rail but they also make them for 11mm. The recoiling action of the shock mounted rails inside the scope mount, absorbs all the recoiling force and the mount itself stays put. It will also protect your scope from recoil damage. I bought mine from PA for around $55. If you used one of these, then you would not have to risk drilling a scope stop hole in your R1 rifle. The mount will rase the height of the scope but allows for the use of a larger objective lens. I have had mine for sometime now and (once I torqued it down correctly) I have not had any problems with it. The mount works as advertised. Just another option to look at lizzie.
My Best Wishes to You - Tom
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I recently acquired a vintage R1 in .20 caliber, and I LOVE the gun! (Thank you Geoffrey!)
As most of us know, air rifles in the "magnum" class are scope killers, and besides being killers, they are also scope migratory enablers- haha.
This gun has the capability of being a One-Ragged-Hole classic, as I can tell, having only had it for a week tomorrow, and most of that time, having been out of town for the fun shoot.
The trigger is light and crisp (actually a little lighter than my preference), and she's heavy and solid.
No complaints about the gun at all.
The problem I am having is nothing new to most of us, but seems worse on this gun than most of my others. The scope migrates appreciably and gradually, in spite of having a nice one-piece mount, which I have tightened several times. It still wants to move.
One of the things I like about the old Dianas with the T05 trigger, is the scope rail...it facilitates locking down the scope with minimal effort.
Okay....now to the question-
Can a gunsmith drill scope stop hole(s) on the scope rail without causing any damage to the gun itself?
I've never had any work done by a gunsmith, and I know that they can do so on PB's (I remember the hubs having that done at one time many years ago), but I am also aware that the steel used on air rifles tends to not be quite as hard or tough as that of PB's...at least that is my understanding, based on multiple sources I have read over the years.
Is there something else I am not thinking of that would be a good fix or solution?
I retightened the scope mount down, took it out to shoot just a few shots, and I could already see that is has moved.
Sigh.....
Humm....I haven't owned a HW springer that didn't have stop pin holes. The R1 was based on the HW35 with same diameter but longer receiver and my HW35 had stop pin holes like this.........
(https://i.imgur.com/r74pvKWl.png)
If your R1 doesn't have stop pin holes you'll notice that the holes are located in the top of the solid machined & threaded screw in end cap.........
pic of the Beeman R10 (has been called "son of R1") I used to own............
(https://i.imgur.com/OzWzKhJl.jpg)
Where the smaller R10 receiver (HW95 size) used a separate bolt on pot metal scope rail with stop pin holes, the R1 stop pin holes were milled directly in the end cap so it seems that a machinist could mill some flat bottomed stop pin holes in the end cap similar to this but.........
(https://i.imgur.com/LKbzZLvh.png)
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Lizzie, I just remembered that I have a spare Gamo compression tube with rail mounted. The reason it does not move is that apart from the three screws squeezing the rail onto the groves it also has its own stop screw that is threaded into the thin compression tube wall. It is machined so that it does not interfere with the working of the gun. I now recall having to back the screw out to remove the rotary breach block.
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Hmmmmmm. Now i am questioning myself!
Okay....back to square one with this issue. I may be missing something here. Thanks all for your input!
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I think we have confused you. The short answer to your question is yes you can drill a hole in the top of the trigger block as long as you don't go to deep. To me drilling a hole in the original gun is causing damage but it may not be to you. You will need a flat ended drill to clean out the hole so that a pointed jobber drill does not go to deep. My Weihrauchs have substantial stop holes with flat bottoms.. Check to see if the trigger block has enough depth just in case it is different to the other Weihrauchs and the stop holes have been omitted for that reason.
PS you will need to remove the trigger block to hold it in a vice on the drill press table. Free hand drilling will not be good enough. May be better to get someone with a mill to do it.
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I think you may NOT just transfer the efforts/problem to a stop pin. Most probably, the hole will not resist and it will become oval (to start..).
You need to focus where the problem is now. Why don't you give a chance to Loctite?
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So, you guys are saying you just put loctite down into the dovetail groove, and place the scope mount, essentially "bedded down" into it?
Thats what I did. I cleaned the grooves real well with some rubbing alcohol to make sure I removed all oil. Then just put a few drops of the red locktite on each side in the groove. Mounted the scope and left it sit for a day or two. The scope never moved after that.
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Check out the BKL mounts on PA. They say 3'8" or 11mm. You put the screws in the opposite side to spread it open then put the screws back in the other side to close it. Some guns I've had that come with a weaver mount are this type and stay tight.
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Check out the BKL mounts on PA. They say 3'8" or 11mm. You put the screws in the opposite side to spread it open then put the screws back in the other side to close it. Some guns I've had that come with a weaver mount are this type and stay tight.
that's what I did yesterday, with one of the new UTG mounts nced mentioned in another thread....probably the same thing. I bet this will work!
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I think you may NOT just transfer the efforts/problem to a stop pin. Most probably, the hole will not resist and it will become oval (to start..).
You need to focus where the problem is now. Why don't you give a chance to Loctite?
My Beeman R9 & HW95 stop pin holes were getting deformed by scope mount stop pins like this.........
(https://i.imgur.com/f1bSl1fh.jpg)
Matter of fact, since I've been using oring sealed piston caps for years I thought that perhaps the "reduced piston braking" vs the factory seal might be the issue. To test this theory I took an old receiver from the "used parts bin" that didn't have any stop pin hole damage and fitted it with a new HW factory piston seal when reassembling. Nope.....the issue wasn't my "low friction oring seal" because this was the result........
(https://i.imgur.com/7YkPLPYh.jpg)
Here is what can happen if the mount stop pin wasn't set deep enough in the receiver stop pin hole.........
(https://i.imgur.com/o1stCzFl.jpg)
In the past I also used the rather pricey BKL one piece mount to prevent damage but it also would slip after a while using the BKL recommended max base screw torque of 35in/lbs.........
(https://i.imgur.com/E2WP2Lql.jpg)
My final solution was to make a "sacrificial stop pin hole liner" like this along with an inexpensive (compared to BKL) UTG Universal dovetail to Picatinny adapter............
(https://i.imgur.com/NqHbgmHh.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/61nEGB7l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/61nEGB7)
(https://i.imgur.com/d1qT29Al.png)(https://i.imgur.com/btWecqfl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/OTaMbpEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/ePypWyFl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/JYKOfNyl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ito5HrNl.jpg)
LOL....the UTG adapter works like the BKL base but it also has stop pins to "help out". I really don't know if the UTG adapter stop pin would deform my HW95 stop pin holes since I'm using a "sacrificial insert" but the one piece base without a separate clamp plate does clamp tightly to the receiver.
Concerning the "LockTite" question.........
I tried this a while back (as well as SuperGlue) and the stuff does work, however I found it hard to remove if needed without scraping inside the shallow HW95/R9 dovetail grooves. Another "solution" I tried that worked was to put a bit of valve grinding compound in the dovetails before mounting the scope base..........
(https://i.imgur.com/X4AmjjJl.jpg)
The grit worked find to hold the scope base in place (even the UTG mounts with separate clamp plate) but the grit did wear on the bluing if the mount was repositioned a few times. I guess another "positive" to the valve grinding compound was that the "grit in grease" did create a rust proof coating in the dovetails. Anywhoo....I found it better to simply make a "sacrificial insert" and not mess with "thread lockers".
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Nice fix, nced!
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Bravo Ed ! Very Good Solution and Nice Fix ! Best Wishes - Tom
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Wow Ed! That is a lot of work put into that, and an excellent fix- WOW!
Btw......so far, I really like the UTG mounts you have demonstrated the use of here.
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Lizzie,
There are these:
https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Airgun-Recoil/dp/B002KJFAZY (https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Airgun-Recoil/dp/B002KJFAZY)
But without a stop hole I don't think they'll be better than what you already have. Is your scope rail removable? I'm not familiar with your rifle.
Taso
No- not removable.
The scope rail on the R1's is very similar to dealing with one of the Gamo scope rails.
Slick and smooth as can be, and no stops of any kind cut into the steel, as I have seen on a few guns.
The photo below of the entire gun isn't mind- it's just to give you an idea of what the gun is.
The other two photos, I took a few minutes ago.
Lizzie,
By looking at the dovetail machined into the receiver tube, it appears that you may not be able to drill too far in before going through the other side. That would be an issue and if you have the hole too shallow, the pin will elongate the hole and ruin the receiver depending on the metal hardness or the pin will shear off the mount. Very delicate & risky procedure, not like drilling & tapping holes for scope mounts on a Mauser 98.
A better option would be to use something similar to the RWS lockdown mount which gives you a lot more clamping area to keep the scope from shifting.
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Thanks Sid! Yesterday, I put on one of the UTG mounts like the ones Ed uses, and will see how that does. I'm betting it will stop the scope creep, and if not, I'll go on to something else, but have decided against the use of a gunsmith.