GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: JoeShmoe on February 23, 2018, 12:46:32 AM
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Hey All,
I'm in the hunt for 10 to 15 air rifles that could be used by a local boyscout troop to earn rifle shooting merit badges. The shooting requirements for an air rifle are as follows:
k. Using a BB gun or pellet air rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 15 feet for BB guns or 33 feet for air rifles, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.
l. Adjust sights to center the group on the target and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) BB rifle at 15 feet or 5 meters using TQ - 5 targets - 8; (2) Pellet air rifle at 25 feet using TQ - 5 target - 8, at 33 feet or 10 meters using AR-1 targets - 6.
What gun do you think would best suit this purpose? Obviously the cheaper the better, but the gun also has to consistently perform or the boys will fail to earn a badge through no fault of their own.
Cheers,
Joe
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You might talk to Mike Melick at Flying Dragon Airguns. IIRC The Xisico XS12 is a youth size break barrel pellet rifle with fixed sights used for youth training.
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CMP refurbished Daisy 853.
They are $105 + $15 shipping.
http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/ (http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/)
Unfortunately 10-15 of them will add up to a significant expense for a troop.
I would contact the CMP to see if you can get a price break for a boy scout troop. Just be aware that the $105 price is already a GOOD price for that rifle, so you may not be able to get a price break.
An 853 in good working order should easily be able to hold the 8-ring of a TQ-5 target, or 6 ring of an AR-5/1 target. And that is the main requirement of the rifle.
The 853 is a SSP rifle, so there is ZERO recoil.
Recoil is a major reason for not shooting accurately.
I would NOT use a spring rifle. Managing the recoil of a spring rifle CONSISTENTLY for 25 record shots, will be difficult for the kids.
NONE of my non-match spring rifles shoot accurately as easily as a SSP.
Tip: MAKE the scouts wear a hearing protector, either muff (easier to use) or plug (does not get in the way of the stock). It WILL make a difference, especially if they shoot in an enclosed area.
The 853 comes with a basic aperture sight front and rear. IMHO aperture sights are a LOT easier to use for target shooting than a notch and post sight, especially on the AR-5/1 target. (more about the target later)
The CMP rifles likely have had the triggers modified to smoothen it out.
If not, it is an easy mod to do.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.msg370084#msg370084 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.msg370084#msg370084)
IMHO, the minimum is the smoothening of the sear and hammer.
The stock trigger on my 953 was soooooo bad that I was fighting the trigger and could not concentrate on the target. Luckily smoothening the sear and hammer is the easiest of the 3 trigger mods to do.
I am pretty sure that there is an error on the specified 10m target.
An AR-1 target is NOT a 10-ring target. At least the ones that I found doing an internet search are not 10-ring targets.
http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355 (http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355)
A PDF of the meritbadge pamphlet shows the same error.
http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf (http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf)
I think they mean the AR-5/1 single bull target.
However you should contact the BSA to get a formal clarification/correction of the correct 10m target to be used.
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There is a fixed sight alternative. BUT it is limited to .22RF, not air rifles.
*NOTE: It is not always practical to adjust the sights (i.e., when using a borrowed fixed-sight rifle). For requirement 2(l), you may demonstrate your ability to use the shooting fundamentals by shooting five shot groups (five shots per group) in which all shots can be covered by or touch a quarter and then explain how to adjust the sights to zero the rifle used.
In reading the merit badge pamphlet, I see a requirement of a min 3 pound trigger. Probably for safety.
CMP Sportster rifles have a min 1-1/2 pound trigger.
If the BSA requirement is followed, the CMP rifles may have to have the triggers de-modified to get the weight UP, to the 3 pound min.
You will also have get a trigger scale or rig up a 3 pound static trigger weight.
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Ruger Explorer or SAR Embark.
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This makes me think of when I was in the boy scouts.
I remember trying and failing for this merit badge.
We shot at a scout camp with 22RF.
We shot prone with minimal support of the forestock.
Like most kids, I thought shooting was easy, and I was really sad when I failed the shooting scores.
In hind sight, I doubt those rifles were properly cleaned and maintained. So the barrels were pretty fouled.
And I think that the shooting instructions that we got as part of the merit badge, were probably not as good as it could have been. Though, I now realize how difficult it can be to train a young kid.
Today I can easily shoot the min 60% score, standing.
Credit to my AR coach for that.
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Ruger Explorer or SAR Embark.
I read about the SAR Embark and it seems like a neat rifle and program.
I may have to get me one of these rifles, to replace the out of production Gamo Delta.
But for accuracy, I would still go with the CMP 853. Because one of the merit badge requirements is a certain minimum level of accuracy. And that is where I failed for my marksmanship merit badge.
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There are LOTS of rules that need to be followed for BSA shooting!
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/pdf/30931_WB.pdf
What kind of budget are you looking at. I'm pretty sure that Crosman will give considerable support for those type of activities, and they might have recommendations. You'll want something in the lower power range for springers, or perhaps CO2 guns. Something easy to shoot would be best for kids to get the kind of accuracy need to get those quarter size groups.
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned the daisy 880 for $35 from Walmart. It'll shoot under a quarter at 10 m with pellets. Can also shoot bbs. Heavy trigger could be lightened by removing the flat spring but will still be over 3lbs. Easy to pump. And cheap!
Have fun!
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I would not recommend any break barrel springer for this task. The learning curve can be pretty steep. A pump type airgun or CO2 would be preferable in my humble opinion.
The Daisy 880 would probably be an excellent choice. I believe Crosman puts one out in about the same price and capability range.
I got my marksmanship badge with my personal .22 rimfire but that was sixty years ago. That may be out of the question in this day and age.
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I`m with Tom on this. No break barrel guns. Contact a manufacturer and you may be surprised by a big discount or donation. I think the NRA has a youth program so maybe talk to them too for advise. You deserve a pat on the back for taking this on. Well done!
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CMP refurbished Daisy 853.
They are $105 + $15 shipping.
http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/ (http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/)
Unfortunately 10-15 of them will add up to a significant expense for a troop.
I would contact the CMP to see if you can get a price break for a boy scout troop. Just be aware that the $105 price is already a GOOD price for that rifle, so you may not be able to get a price break.
An 853 in good working order should easily be able to hold the 8-ring of a TQ-5 target, or 6 ring of an AR-5/1 target. And that is the main requirement of the rifle.
The 853 is a SSP rifle, so there is ZERO recoil.
Recoil is a major reason for not shooting accurately.
I would NOT use a spring rifle. Managing the recoil of a spring rifle CONSISTENTLY for 25 record shots, will be difficult for the kids.
NONE of my non-match spring rifles shoot accurately as easily as a SSP.
Tip: MAKE the scouts wear a hearing protector, either muff (easier to use) or plug (does not get in the way of the stock). It WILL make a difference, especially if they shoot in an enclosed area.
The 853 comes with a basic aperture sight front and rear. IMHO aperture sights are a LOT easier to use for target shooting than a notch and post sight, especially on the AR-5/1 target. (more about the target later)
The CMP rifles likely have had the triggers modified to smoothen it out.
If not, it is an easy mod to do.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.msg370084#msg370084 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.msg370084#msg370084)
IMHO, the minimum is the smoothening of the sear and hammer.
The stock trigger on my 953 was soooooo bad that I was fighting the trigger and could not concentrate on the target. Luckily smoothening the sear and hammer is the easiest of the 3 trigger mods to do.
I am pretty sure that there is an error on the specified 10m target.
An AR-1 target is NOT a 10-ring target. At least the ones that I found doing an internet search are not 10-ring targets.
http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355 (http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355)
A PDF of the meritbadge pamphlet shows the same error.
http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf (http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf)
I think they mean the AR-5/1 single bull target.
However you should contact the BSA to get a formal clarification/correction of the correct 10m target to be used.
That is excellent advice.
Read it 2 times today, then 1 time every day for a week.
Crosman should also be contacted as suggested.
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I will donate $120 to the Boy Scout Troupe to buy one of the CMP refurbished Daisy 853 rifles.
What name do I put on the check?
What address do I send the check to?
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I will donate $120 to the Boy Scout Troupe to buy one of the CMP refurbished Daisy 853 rifles.
What name do I put on the check?
What address do I send the check to?
Earl (and others):
I should clarify, the rifles would be for my local sportsman club, of which I am a member. As such, I would not feel comfortable accepting donations since we are not a "charitable" organization like the Boy Scouts. It wouldn't feel right, even though we have plans to work with them.
I greatly appreciate the offer though!
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CMP refurbished Daisy 853.
They are $105 + $15 shipping.
http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/ (http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/)
Unfortunately 10-15 of them will add up to a significant expense for a troop.
I would contact the CMP to see if you can get a price break for a boy scout troop. Just be aware that the $105 price is already a GOOD price for that rifle, so you may not be able to get a price break.
An 853 in good working order should easily be able to hold the 8-ring of a TQ-5 target, or 6 ring of an AR-5/1 target. And that is the main requirement of the rifle.
The 853 is a SSP rifle, so there is ZERO recoil.
Recoil is a major reason for not shooting accurately.
I would NOT use a spring rifle. Managing the recoil of a spring rifle CONSISTENTLY for 25 record shots, will be difficult for the kids.
NONE of my non-match spring rifles shoot accurately as easily as a SSP.
Tip: MAKE the scouts wear a hearing protector, either muff (easier to use) or plug (does not get in the way of the stock). It WILL make a difference, especially if they shoot in an enclosed area.
The 853 comes with a basic aperture sight front and rear. IMHO aperture sights are a LOT easier to use for target shooting than a notch and post sight, especially on the AR-5/1 target. (more about the target later)
The CMP rifles likely have had the triggers modified to smoothen it out.
If not, it is an easy mod to do.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.msg370084#msg370084 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.msg370084#msg370084)
IMHO, the minimum is the smoothening of the sear and hammer.
The stock trigger on my 953 was soooooo bad that I was fighting the trigger and could not concentrate on the target. Luckily smoothening the sear and hammer is the easiest of the 3 trigger mods to do.
I am pretty sure that there is an error on the specified 10m target.
An AR-1 target is NOT a 10-ring target. At least the ones that I found doing an internet search are not 10-ring targets.
http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355 (http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355)
A PDF of the meritbadge pamphlet shows the same error.
http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf (http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf)
I think they mean the AR-5/1 single bull target.
However you should contact the BSA to get a formal clarification/correction of the correct 10m target to be used.
As stated before, this is excellent sounding advice. I'm going to contact the CMP and see what they think.
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned the daisy 880 for $35 from Walmart. It'll shoot under a quarter at 10 m with pellets. Can also shoot bbs. Heavy trigger could be lightened by removing the flat spring but will still be over 3lbs. Easy to pump. And cheap!
Have fun!
I've never gotten that kind of accuracy out of my Daisy 880, even after all the work I put into it with the suggested mods. Maybe I'm a terrible shot! O.o Maybe I need to find the right pellet.
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Ruger Explorer or SAR Embark.
I read about the SAR Embark and it seems like a neat rifle and program.
I may have to get me one of these rifles, to replace the out of production Gamo Delta.
But for accuracy, I would still go with the CMP 853. Because one of the merit badge requirements is a certain minimum level of accuracy. And that is where I failed for my marksmanship merit badge.
I've also contacted SAR to see what advice they can offer me.
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On the CPM rifles, you should have one person do a full QA check on the rifles when they are received. I have read of occasional problems with the rifles. Most of the rifles are used (probably ROTC and JROTC), so problems sometimes slip by the refurbish team. While the CMP will take care of the problems, you don't want a kid to run into any of those problems.
I think "old gringo" lucked out and got a NEW "in the box" 853 ;D
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Ruger Explorer or SAR Embark.
I read about the SAR Embark and it seems like a neat rifle and program.
I may have to get me one of these rifles, to replace the out of production Gamo Delta.
But for accuracy, I would still go with the CMP 853. Because one of the merit badge requirements is a certain minimum level of accuracy. And that is where I failed for my marksmanship merit badge.
I've also contacted SAR to see what advice they can offer me.
Contacting SAR is good.
The CMP 853 should give better accuracy than the SAR Umarex Embark break barrel, therefore allowing the boys to win their merit badges.
The SAR competition is good because it gives all the shooters the same equipment to have fair competition, but the merit badges have a difficult set standard to be met. The boys will need all the accuracy they can get.
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I've never gotten that kind of accuracy out of my Daisy 880, even after all the work I put into it with the suggested mods. Maybe I'm a terrible shot! O.o Maybe I need to find the right pellet.
I disagree, I've seen you shoot, and you ARE a good shot.
It's a great think you are doing Joe, let me know if you need any help at the club when you are teaching and qualifying shooters.
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I read the merit badge pamphlet, and I have a problem with the "bench rest" position as they describe it.
- The pamphlet describes and shows a 1 point benchrest. Only the forestock is supported by the "rest." The rear of the stock is supported by the shooter.
- Without a rear owl bag, to support the stock, you NEED to really stabilize your body and shoulder, to stabilize the rifle.
- I found, that I have to rest/push my body against the bench/table, to stabilize my upper body. If I don't my upper body will move and make it difficult to stabilize the rifle. You need 3 point support; upper body firmly against the bench and both elbows on the bench.
- In looking at the pictures/drawings of the rest, it looks too high. When it is too far above the bench, it is more difficult to stabilize the shooter and rifle.
Regarding the "bench"
- The bench has to be as stable as possible, and able to lean the body against it. The least bit of rocking or wobbling, and you can forget accuracy for the kids. IMHO, if you can't get stable benches/tables, shoot prone.
- With a bench, the height of the seat and bench top is important, if not critical.
If it is too far apart, the short shooters will have problems reaching and positioning the rifle.
If the seat is too high, the short shooter's feet won't reach the ground, and it will be difficult to stabilize the body on the seat. So you need feet supports for the shorter shooters, like pieces of 2x12.
- The chair on page 42 is BAD. I've sat on that chair and if you seat forward, it will tend to rock forward. Definitely NOT good to use. Much better is the chair on page 51.
I would rather use a wood stool with a large FLAT top, so it won't tilt the hip bone as chairs tend to do.
The guys that shoot Bench Rest Air Rifle should have some better tips/advice here.
Shooting prone, eliminates almost all the hassles of the bench. You just need a good mat and padding for the elbows.
But shooting prone is not as easy as shooting from a bench, at least for me.
Because the sling comes into play, and is important for accuracy. Though the sling is not mentioned in the merit badge pamphlet, maybe because they don't intend the shooters to use a sling.
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BTW, I found it interesting that the BSA would include muzzle loading rifles in the rifle shooting merit badge.
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Ruger Explorer or SAR Embark.
I read about the SAR Embark and it seems like a neat rifle and program.
I may have to get me one of these rifles, to replace the out of production Gamo Delta.
But for accuracy, I would still go with the CMP 853. Because one of the merit badge requirements is a certain minimum level of accuracy. And that is where I failed for my marksmanship merit badge.
I've also contacted SAR to see what advice they can offer me.
Contacting SAR is good.
The CMP 853 should give better accuracy than the SAR Umarex Embark break barrel, therefore allowing the boys to win their merit badges.
The SAR competition is good because it gives all the shooters the same equipment to have fair competition, but the merit badges have a difficult set standard to be met. The boys will need all the accuracy they can get.
Agreed.
Accuracy is how I failed my marksmanship merit badge.
Don't make it any harder than it already is.
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What about the new Daisy 1910 BSA air rifle ?
It's just a model 35 with brown stock which says BSA on it, but my model 35 was pretty accurate for a smooth bore.
There's also the 880 which is a very accurate rifle for $35.
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Ruger Explorer or SAR Embark.
I read about the SAR Embark and it seems like a neat rifle and program.
I may have to get me one of these rifles, to replace the out of production Gamo Delta.
But for accuracy, I would still go with the CMP 853. Because one of the merit badge requirements is a certain minimum level of accuracy. And that is where I failed for my marksmanship merit badge.
I've also contacted SAR to see what advice they can offer me.
Contacting SAR is good.
The CMP 853 should give better accuracy than the SAR Umarex Embark break barrel, therefore allowing the boys to win their merit badges.
The SAR competition is good because it gives all the shooters the same equipment to have fair competition, but the merit badges have a difficult set standard to be met. The boys will need all the accuracy they can get.
Agreed.
Accuracy is how I failed my marksmanship merit badge.
Don't make it any harder than it already is.
Correction, LACK of accuracy is how I failed my marksmanship merit badge.
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- start quote
I am pretty sure that there is an error on the specified 10m target.
An AR-1 target is NOT a 10-ring target. At least the ones that I found doing an internet search are not 10-ring targets.
http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355 (http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-355)
A PDF of the meritbadge pamphlet shows the same error.
http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf (http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf)
I think they mean the AR-5/1 single bull target.
However you should contact the BSA to get a formal clarification/correction of the correct 10m target to be used.
- end quote
Curiosity got the better of me.
I just sent an email to the BSA to find out what the correct 10meter target is.
Will report back, when they respond to me.
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned the daisy 880 for $35 from Walmart. It'll shoot under a quarter at 10 m with pellets. Can also shoot bbs. Heavy trigger could be lightened by removing the flat spring but will still be over 3lbs. Easy to pump. And cheap!
Have fun!
I've never gotten that kind of accuracy out of my Daisy 880, even after all the work I put into it with the suggested mods. Maybe I'm a terrible shot! O.o Maybe I need to find the right pellet.
The right pellet and number of pumps combination is always important. It could be you just got a bad barrel, though. I have three modern 880s that will shoot under a quarter, and sometimes under a dime at 10m. JSB pellets usually work well in my pumpers.
Good luck!
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I've never gotten that kind of accuracy out of my Daisy 880, even after all the work I put into it with the suggested mods. Maybe I'm a terrible shot! O.o Maybe I need to find the right pellet.
I disagree, I've seen you shoot, and you ARE a good shot.
It's a great think you are doing Joe, let me know if you need any help at the club when you are teaching and qualifying shooters.
Be careful what you say, I might use you as leverage to get the final approval from the club!
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned the daisy 880 for $35 from Walmart. It'll shoot under a quarter at 10 m with pellets. Can also shoot bbs. Heavy trigger could be lightened by removing the flat spring but will still be over 3lbs. Easy to pump. And cheap!
Have fun!
I've never gotten that kind of accuracy out of my Daisy 880, even after all the work I put into it with the suggested mods. Maybe I'm a terrible shot! O.o Maybe I need to find the right pellet.
The right pellet and number of pumps combination is always important. It could be you just got a bad barrel, though. I have three modern 880s that will shoot under a quarter, and sometimes under a dime at 10m. JSB pellets usually work well in my pumpers.
Good luck!
Maybe I'll start working on JSBs with the 880. On the other hand, that wood stock on the 873 is so nice!
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I read the merit badge pamphlet, and I have a problem with the "bench rest" position as they describe it.
- The pamphlet describes and shows a 1 point benchrest. Only the forestock is supported by the "rest." The rear of the stock is supported by the shooter.
- Without a rear owl bag, to support the stock, you NEED to really stabilize your body and shoulder, to stabilize the rifle.
- I found, that I have to rest/push my body against the bench/table, to stabilize my upper body. If I don't my upper body will move and make it difficult to stabilize the rifle. You need 3 point support; upper body firmly against the bench and both elbows on the bench.
- In looking at the pictures/drawings of the rest, it looks too high. When it is too far above the bench, it is more difficult to stabilize the shooter and rifle.
Regarding the "bench"
- The bench has to be as stable as possible, and able to lean the body against it. The least bit of rocking or wobbling, and you can forget accuracy for the kids. IMHO, if you can't get stable benches/tables, shoot prone.
- With a bench, the height of the seat and bench top is important, if not critical.
If it is too far apart, the short shooters will have problems reaching and positioning the rifle.
If the seat is too high, the short shooter's feet won't reach the ground, and it will be difficult to stabilize the body on the seat. So you need feet supports for the shorter shooters, like pieces of 2x12.
- The chair on page 42 is BAD. I've sat on that chair and if you seat forward, it will tend to rock forward. Definitely NOT good to use. Much better is the chair on page 51.
I would rather use a wood stool with a large FLAT top, so it won't tilt the hip bone as chairs tend to do.
The guys that shoot Bench Rest Air Rifle should have some better tips/advice here.
Shooting prone, eliminates almost all the hassles of the bench. You just need a good mat and padding for the elbows.
But shooting prone is not as easy as shooting from a bench, at least for me.
Because the sling comes into play, and is important for accuracy. Though the sling is not mentioned in the merit badge pamphlet, maybe because they don't intend the shooters to use a sling.
We would almost certainly shoot prone, as it cuts down on initial investment (we don't have shooting benches) and allows us to be more flexible when choosing range areas for the boys. I'm almost certain a sling is not used for the BSA merit badge.
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I looked at the BSA merit badge page.
There are some really neat merit badges now.
Makes me want to try to do some of them.
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Hey All,
I'm in the hunt for 10 to 15 air rifles that could be used by a local boyscout troop to earn rifle shooting merit badges. The shooting requirements for an air rifle are as follows:
k. Using a BB gun or pellet air rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 15 feet for BB guns or 33 feet for air rifles, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.
l. Adjust sights to center the group on the target and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) BB rifle at 15 feet or 5 meters using TQ - 5 targets - 8; (2) Pellet air rifle at 25 feet using TQ - 5 target - 8, at 33 feet or 10 meters using AR-1 targets - 6.
What gun do you think would best suit this purpose? Obviously the cheaper the better, but the gun also has to consistently perform or the boys will fail to earn a badge through no fault of their own.
Cheers,
Joe
I Own a couple CMP 853's. If I were in your shoes, I'd try to come up with 2-3 CMP 853's and let the youth take turns learning the guns and how to treat them how to safely shoot a quality pellet gun. It's not only about targets and merit badges.
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Hey All,
I'm in the hunt for 10 to 15 air rifles that could be used by a local boyscout troop to earn rifle shooting merit badges. The shooting requirements for an air rifle are as follows:
k. Using a BB gun or pellet air rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 15 feet for BB guns or 33 feet for air rifles, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.
l. Adjust sights to center the group on the target and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) BB rifle at 15 feet or 5 meters using TQ - 5 targets - 8; (2) Pellet air rifle at 25 feet using TQ - 5 target - 8, at 33 feet or 10 meters using AR-1 targets - 6.
What gun do you think would best suit this purpose? Obviously the cheaper the better, but the gun also has to consistently perform or the boys will fail to earn a badge through no fault of their own.
Cheers,
Joe
I own a couple of quality CMP 853's. If I were in your shoes, I'd try to come up with 2-3 CMP 853's and let the youth take turns learning the guns and how to treat them how to safely shoot a quality pellet gun. It's not only about targets and merit badges.
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oops!
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BTW, 10-15 rifles seems like a LOT of rifles for a single troop.
How large is the troop?
Not all would be at the merit badge earning level.
And would you have 10+ going for the rifle shooting merit badge at the same time?
- For your FIRST class, you may have more than 10. But after that first class, it will drop down.
- If you have multiple troops, then the answer might be YES.
- How many scouts can your club work with and teach at the same time? If you don't have enough qualified volunteers, that might be your limiting factor.
So as Oldgringo said, you likely need less than your 10-15 rifles.
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BTW, so that everyone is on the same page, this is the link to the current merit badge requirements.
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Merit_Badge_ReqandRes/Rifle_Shooting.pdf (https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Merit_Badge_ReqandRes/Rifle_Shooting.pdf)
The requirements above, do not have any of the educational material that is in the pamphlet (link below).
http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf (http://troop577wichita.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/2/2/11225514/rifle_shooting_2001.pdf)
But I cannot find the pamphlets on the BSA site.
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BTW, 10-15 rifles seems like a LOT of rifles for a single troop.
How large is the troop?
Not all would be at the merit badge earning level.
And would you have 10+ going for the rifle shooting merit badge at the same time?
- For your FIRST class, you may have more than 10. But after that first class, it will drop down.
- If you have multiple troops, then the answer might be YES.
- How many scouts can your club work with and teach at the same time? If you don't have enough qualified volunteers, that might be your limiting factor.
So as Oldgringo said, you likely need less than your 10-15 rifles.
That's a good point. My mental model is based off summer camp, where they host multiple troops a week and have 20+ .22LR for the range. Even if I have a big group, I could send most of them on an orienteering trip or something to keep them occupied. I'm sure it would be rather boring to sit and watch your friends try and shoot for their merit badges.
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Holy poop! Look at this accuracy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfmyOJAkLiw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfmyOJAkLiw)
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Holy poop! Look at this accuracy!
That is why I recommended it.
The scout shooter will be the weak link, not the gun.
If you have never shot a SSP, you might get ONE rifle to try it out, and evaluate.
Then see for yourself how easy it is to shoot accurately with that rifle.
But also to see what the charging and loading procedure is. Because it is different than a break-barrel spring rifle.
Then make your decision after that.
BTW, they have 2 different stocks.
- sportster. A traditional straight stock.
- monte carlo, as in the video, with a vertical pistol grip.
I personally prefer the vertical grip of the monte carlo stock, for target shooting.
FYI. The plastic 953 stock will fit the 853, and can be used to replace a damaged or broken 853 stock. Order it directly from Daisy.
The plastic stock is more durable and heavier (weight is your friend in target shooting). But I have seen a few reports of the plastic stock flexing slightly in hotter climates.
I did this myself. I have a plastic 953 stock on my 853. I did it to get the heavier stock and vertical pistol grip.
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I would like to echo the 880 as a very inexpensive choice. In my experience, the 880 is accurate enough, out of the box, at 25 feet. I don't shoot BB's out of mine but I would think it would work well at 15 feet with BB's. I'd go with lead BB's. Man......15 feet is CLOSE.
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. . . I'd go with lead BB's. Man......15 feet is CLOSE.
What scares me is that a BB will bounce or ricochet even MORE than a pellet.
So I do NOT like shooting with the standard BBs.
Once you get a bounce back or ricochet hit you, you want the target as FAR away as you can get it.
I had pellet fragments hit me in the face from a bounce back at about 10 feet. The pellet hit the flat side edge of the trap and splattered. A few the splatter pieces hit me in the face, VERY CLOSE to my eye. Which made me think that some of the fragments may have hit my glasses. This is why we wear safety glasses. $hit happens.
Now the only time that i shoot at less than 10 meters is when I am trying to do the initial sight-in of a new sight/scope, where I have no idea where it is aimed to.
I do a few shots at about 2-3 meters, just to get the sight "in the ball park," so that it will hit the paper at 10 meters.
I had a couple rifle/sight/scope combinations where I did not do this, and the pellet completely missed the target paper at 10m. And I had no idea where it hit the backstop. That is another reason for a GOOD back stop. So I had to shoot close, just to hit the paper, to figure out where the sight was aimed at, then adjust the sight to hit closer to point of aim. Then I could go out to 10m for final adjustment.
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No doubt about it, the Daisy 853 CMP is ACCURATE.
It comes with very good peep sights which are best for teaching new shooters.
It is easy to cock.
I don't think you should shoot steel BBs in it, because they may harm the rifling in the EXCELLENT and expensive barrel.
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880 or 853?
I've owned both.
Bought the 880 years ago (20? 30?) to plink tin cans. I don't remember it being especially accurate. Then I didn't shoot any air rifles again much until last year when I bought a refurbished 853 from the CMP.
853. Wow!
My first experience with a peep sight. I shot this indoors at 30 feet using inexpensive Crosman wad-cutters, seated, using a camera tripod for a front rest; very accurate!
Then, for fun, I shot standing, no rest of any kind; didn't expect much. To my great surprise, my groups standing using the peep sight were almost as tight.
I'll give you the air gun enthusiasts typical advice; buy one of each! As has already been suggested. You owe it to yourself to try the 853. The 880 is so inexpensive it shouldn't be much heartache to buy just one.
The 853 launched my whole interest in quality air guns. The 880 basically got used some and sat in a corner for years before being discarded.
If your BSA troop uses a highly accurate, quality air gun they will get much more than checking off just another merit badge. They will remember the thrill of a rifle that shoots better than they can ... arousing the self-competitive motivation to see "just how well can I do if I learn and keep practicing?" That sense, will last a lifetime.
Just my humble opinion. 🙂
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One more thing, read up on the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). Why do we have it? What is it for? This is a good program that deserves our support. Unfortunately, until human nature changes, we will want Americans who understand accuracy and how to shoot. The CMP supports that and does it without a lot of politicking that sets us against one another.
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One more thing, read up on the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). Why do we have it? What is it for? This is a good program that deserves our support. Unfortunately, until human nature changes, we will want Americans who understand accuracy and how to shoot. The CMP supports that and does it without a lot of politicking that sets us against one another.
I could not agree more.
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880 or 853?
I've owned both.
Bought the 880 years ago (20? 30?) to plink tin cans. I don't remember it being especially accurate. Then I didn't shoot any air rifles again much until last year when I bought a refurbished 853 from the CMP.
853. Wow!
My first experience with a peep sight. I shot this indoors at 30 feet using inexpensive Crosman wad-cutters, seated, using a camera tripod for a front rest; very accurate!
Then, for fun, I shot standing, no rest of any kind; didn't expect much. To my great surprise, my groups standing using the peep sight were almost as tight.
I'll give you the air gun enthusiasts typical advice; buy one of each! As has already been suggested. You owe it to yourself to try the 853. The 880 is so inexpensive it shouldn't be much heartache to buy just one.
The 853 launched my whole interest in quality air guns. The 880 basically got used some and sat in a corner for years before being discarded.
If your BSA troop uses a highly accurate, quality air gun they will get much more than checking off just another merit badge. They will remember the thrill of a rifle that shoots better than they can ... arousing the self-competitive motivation to see "just how well can I do if I learn and keep practicing?" That sense, will last a lifetime.
Just my humble opinion. 🙂
Today's 880 has a rifled barrel. The one you had back in the day likely didn't. That makes an enormous difference in accuracy. BTW PA is selling Cr 760's for $32 right now. Another good choice, if expense is a major issue.
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Today's 880 has a rifled barrel. The one you had back in the day likely didn't. That makes an enormous difference in accuracy.
When I bought my 880, it had a smoothbore barrel. So ... I ordered the rifled barrel from the 881 and installed it on my 880.
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The CMP is selling reconditioned Daisy 853 Sporter Air Rifles to promote the development of more new junior shooters. This program can be especially important to new junior programs and summer camps that are seeking to acquire target air rifles suitable for marksmanship at an affordable price. For more information, or to find out if your program is eligible to purchase rifles through this promotional program, please contact Tommy Whitten, twhitten@thecmp.org or 419-635-2141 ext. 713.
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Having failed to get my marksmanship merit badge, because I could not score high enough, IMHO, it is important to make sure that the rifle does not hold back the shooter, and is EASY to shoot well.
One of my pet peeves is the fit of a rifle. I have seen MANY so called "junior rifles" which were simply a full size adult rifle with a lower power. The LoP is about 14 inches on these rifles. While some juniors are TALL, most are not tall enough to have a 14 inch LoP. So we need to make sure that the rifle fits most of the kids.
One good thing about the 853 is that it is made for this. Daisy sells spacers to put between the stock and butt pad, to lengthen the LoP from the base 12 inches. Granted spacers is not as easy to adjust as a purpose designed adjustable stock, but it works.
The easiest rifle to shoot accurately will allow the scout shooter to be able to get his highest score.
Kids are not like us, they won't spend weeks trying to learn the artillery hold, or to shoot a particular type of rifle, or master a tricky trigger, or funky sights.
Example1, I shoot my AP with a sub-6 hold. It can be hard to teach an adult. I would not even try to teach that to a kid. It was hard enough for me to get it.
Example2, I have an IZH-60. It is a REALLY NICE junior rifle, with an easy to adjust stock, a FANTASTIC trigger, and a nice pistol grip. But because it is a spring rifle, it recoils/jumps when it is shot. Try as much as I can, the recoil makes it harder to shoot accurately than the 853, which has ZERO recoil.
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The CMP is selling reconditioned Daisy 853 Sporter Air Rifles to promote the development of more new junior shooters. This program can be especially important to new junior programs and summer camps that are seeking to acquire target air rifles suitable for marksmanship at an affordable price. For more information, or to find out if your program is eligible to purchase rifles through this promotional program, please contact Tommy Whitten, twhitten@thecmp.org or 419-635-2141 ext. 713.
When I get approval from the club, I think I'm going to "spring" for six of the Daisy M853s. Those are really nice rifles and certainly worth the price.
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The CMP is selling reconditioned Daisy 853 Sporter Air Rifles to promote the development of more new junior shooters. This program can be especially important to new junior programs and summer camps that are seeking to acquire target air rifles suitable for marksmanship at an affordable price. For more information, or to find out if your program is eligible to purchase rifles through this promotional program, please contact Tommy Whitten, twhitten@thecmp.org or 419-635-2141 ext. 713.
When I get approval from the club, I think I'm going to "spring" for six of the Daisy M853s. Those are really nice rifles and certainly worth the price.
My offer to pay for 1 rifle at $105 plus $14.95 shipping = $119.95 is still good.
Just tell me the name to put on the check and the address to mail the check to.
Thanks to your club for giving their time and facilities to teach people to enjoy shooting.
Please teach everyone that wants to learn, boys, girls, men and women.
Please let them shoot a lot.
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The CMP is selling reconditioned Daisy 853 Sporter Air Rifles to promote the development of more new junior shooters. This program can be especially important to new junior programs and summer camps that are seeking to acquire target air rifles suitable for marksmanship at an affordable price. For more information, or to find out if your program is eligible to purchase rifles through this promotional program, please contact Tommy Whitten, twhitten@thecmp.org or 419-635-2141 ext. 713.
When I get approval from the club, I think I'm going to "spring" for six of the Daisy M853s. Those are really nice rifles and certainly worth the price.
My offer to pay for 1 rifle at $105 plus $14.95 shipping = $119.95 is still good.
Just tell me the name to put on the check and the address to mail the check to.
Thanks to your club for giving their time and facilities to teach people to enjoy shooting.
Please teach everyone that wants to learn, boys, girls, men and women.
Please let them shoot a lot.
I appreciate it. I'll forward the information to the club. The primary hurdle is going to be convincing them that the liability of actually owning the rifles and allowing others to use them is minimal. I'll most likely be getting a small bore coaching certification as a part of this program. I'll let you all know how it goes!
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Here's Joe and the shooting range.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/vwwi9f.jpg)
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Check out the new rifle! I'm going to use this one to convince the club to invest!
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=140330.new#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=140330.new#new)
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Also related, have any of you seen this short series? A very informative blast from the past!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wXkGWzkV2k&list=PLC8E447A8EDE4558B&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wXkGWzkV2k&list=PLC8E447A8EDE4558B&index=1)
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Pretty cool.
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Joe,
Would your 853 per chance happen to have a hole in the rear of the triggerguard?
BobH.
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Also related, have any of you seen this short series?
Yes! After I got my CMP 853, I watched every episode. Teaching young people about gun safety and accurate shooting is such a good thing!
Thank you for what you are doing!
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Years ago I donated a Disco to a BS troop and the tuner I used at the time donated a filling system. :) It made me feel good that someone got the use out of a rifle I didn't really like.