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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Ribbonstone on October 08, 2017, 03:33:20 AM
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From comapring a P-rod and a Spa PCP spistol...both about the same 65cc's..same fill pressures..same caliber....same pellets..same energy level.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/104630dc-d7e2-4c31-b521-110de4b662d0.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/104630dc-d7e2-4c31-b521-110de4b662d0.jpg.html)
I got 30-31 shots inside of 2% velocity varation at 15 foot pounds with the SPA
Can get 24 shots inside of 4% and 13 shots inside oif 2% for the P-rod at the same 15 foot pound enegy. Of those, were 12 shots inside of 2%.
Not like I'm griping about it. For JUST THE 2% shots, the p-rod used about 600psi of air. For 3X the number of 2% shots, the regulated SPA used 3X as much air (1800psi).
And NONE OF THIS COUNTS for accuracy,,,,2% isn't much of a differnece, certainly (and proovably) less than all the other varaions.
But lets (illusionally) assume "equality" with only velocity as the variation.
What I realized...in comparsion to non regulated PCP's of the same volume and basically the same size is this:
Basically, the same air use for either an unregulated 2% 12shots (600psi)...or a regulated 2% 36 shots (1800psi) is about equal.
Regulation isn't the "end all"...it's not "magic"...and it does take some energy out of the system to actually fucntion the mechanical regulator..but all-in-all, regulation doesn't equal some fantastic air-use (efficnecty) increase.
Regulation basically gives you the top of the shot count graph "plateau" for a longer shot count, but not a better air use.
Me...I'm not in a rush...can shoot 15 2% shots, put in 20 pumps (600psi) or shoot 45 2% shots and put back in 60 pump strokes (1800psi)...it's all the same at the end of the day.
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Thanks for bringing this up, Ribbs. I've been following along on many of your comparisons between your single-shot rifles and "low end" shooters. I've been finding that in the end, I still have to put a certain amount of effort in in order to extract a certain amount of energy out (which coincidentally affirms that energy in = energy out). If I do my part and find the most-accurate pellet, it's a total wash between regulated versus non-regulated. I don't have the wide range of guns to choose from that you do, but there are certainly parallels, and for a guy like me that uses his airguns for hunting, pesting, and plinking, I don't feel an overwhelming urge to focus on regulated airguns.
If I was punching tiny holes in paper competitively, that would likely change.
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I got 30-31 shots inside of 2% velocity varation at 15 foot pounds with the SPA
... all-in-all, regulation doesn't equal some fantastic air-use (efficnecty) increase.
See the comments about the Maximus Euro at 4:45 in this review video.
https://youtu.be/QwfOSG3m6wc
See the attached photo of 33 shots using just 500 psi; extreme spread of 1.6%.
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Nice comparison, Ribbon.... and that string on the Euro-Maximus works out to 1.39 FPE/CI for 33 shots at a 1.6% ES.... NICE !!!
Bob
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It's not that I disblieve that lower vel. varation is a good thing...it is. Doubtful as much of a help to be at 1-2% varation as folks want it to be; it's not going to magically make accuracy increase. Way too many other factors at play,,,and the longer the distance, the more those other factors get to playing.
I just don't find regulation to be the magic cure. It does make for longer strings of low vel. variation shots, but does so by running over a much larger pressure range.
Given the same volume, if I can get 20 great shots with 600psi of air use....am I really behind a regulated rifle that can give 60 great shot with 1800psi of air use?
Regulation won't really hurt anything (well...does add another level of complexity and another variable in tuning) and allows a longer time between refills.
But I do not think regulation is a "must". There is normally a short run of really uniform shots in a non-regulated rifle where everything is in pretty good balance. If you find that spot, and live inside the pressure range of those shots, can have very low velocity spreads.
Yeah...it's often a short run. The more energetic the output, the shorter that run of uniform shots.
Lets start with 4 rifles I will NOT be regulating. Will leave that to the next owners (yeah...likly the rifles will out last me).
Disco. Only non-standard internal parts are a lightened striker, slightly reduced transfer port, and a different spring (which likely came from a first year Disco). No reg, no anti bounce device.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/Disco/68a31cd9-d24f-4fee-b85c-e4aea0432708.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/Disco/68a31cd9-d24f-4fee-b85c-e4aea0432708.jpg.html)
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/Disco/3a308a6f-0b69-4afd-9476-c67148abb660.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/Disco/3a308a6f-0b69-4afd-9476-c67148abb660.jpg.html)
Adjusted .177 Pmeua (old Single shot Hatsan). Did get a factory replacement air tube, and I closed off all but one of the valve ports. Lot of testing and adjusting, but it's all factory guts.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pneuma/eab43a7b-5c10-4876-9247-de711c64c16b.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pneuma/eab43a7b-5c10-4876-9247-de711c64c16b.jpg.html)
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pneuma/ac14b6a2-74f7-454b-86c1-76083301664e.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pneuma/ac14b6a2-74f7-454b-86c1-76083301664e.jpg.html)
Youn kind of expect the little AA/CZ 200's to shoot well, and both of these do. Just some careful adjusting of the supplied adjustments and a lot of testing will often find a really sweet spot. Only non-factory parts are the LDC's and one non-factory replacment screw.
Also have some parts in these rifles that act as a kind of limiter...not a regulator, but it does kind of act like 1/2 of one.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/AA%20s200/a41394df-ede1-4271-9375-3bb5b2573f6d.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/AA%20s200/a41394df-ede1-4271-9375-3bb5b2573f6d.jpg.html)
The .177 can be reset to produce a longer 4% shot count, but for some reason this setting always has more 2% shots. It's not as efficient over all as it could be, but it's the best at 2% shooting I could find, so I live with it's air use.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/AA%20s200/0eb38118-e8e0-4145-b137-cedc9e15c6a4.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/AA%20s200/0eb38118-e8e0-4145-b137-cedc9e15c6a4.jpg.html)
And something nice happened to the older .22 version at one setting...and I've left it there.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/AA%20s200/c629ab9a-d7ce-4845-ac8c-88eea4743951.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/AA%20s200/c629ab9a-d7ce-4845-ac8c-88eea4743951.jpg.html)
With that said, I do keep a few regulated rifles.
One of my favorites is also the simplest. HPA bottled QB79 carbine. Simple, short, heavy, and kind of "clunky". Another low powered airgun, but set up for +200 shots per fill at 13 foot pounds (with heavy pellets). I pretty much made it for ratting. Nothing wrong with that old Tasco 3-9X, but on this rifle's use (low light ratting) it stays on 3X.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/QB%20mods/c20ab711-058d-477b-ad59-81db27e9ea90.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/QB%20mods/c20ab711-058d-477b-ad59-81db27e9ea90.jpg.html)
So how can +200 good shots not be great? Well, it gets those 200 shots over 2200psi of air use. It's not really inefficient....but it's not some super-efficent critter-getter either (about 1.3 fpe/cuin).
Does it shoot "better" becasue of regulation. Nope...shoots as well as it did when the barrel was on a 12gr. co2 rifle going the same speed....just shoots a whole lot more.
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Yep, I agree with Ribbs on this. On my unregulated .22 Synrod using an 18.13gr and 1000 PSI averaging 29.2 FPE I am able to get 40 shots just under a 2% ES with a 1.3 FPE/CI efficiency. All stock ports and valve. Only mods are a TSS (for a hammer gap) and a lighter MDS hammer. If I had continued shooting down to a 4% ES I would've probably got a few more shots too. The best similar regulated tune I've seen was 50 shots using 1000 PSI but with a 4.32% ES at 1.77 FPE/CI averaging 28.3 FPE. This is why I never regulated mine. I am curious though with the new SS valve if this may change my opinion on regulating mine.
However, when it comes to opening up the port for more power, it does become much harder to control the ES and that is when a regulator shines more plus the ability to tune closer to max fill, but with more work and headaches and expense dealing with a regulator's requirements and issues.
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Don't forget that regulation reduces the required hammer strike (cocking force) generally by a good margin(30-50%~). Allows you to run lighter hammers or very light springs. Hammer bounce isn't as violent and the action is much more tamer in a regulated rifle versus unregulated.
In some rifles with 4-4.5k+ fill pressures it would be incredibly hard to design a valve to do well unregulated, especially in calibers over .357 cal! Not to say 4k~ fill rifles are the standard for the future but when it comes to very large ports and high fill pressures you can have a valve that is INCREDIBLY hard to open. Once regulated @ 2500~ the energy required to open the valve opposed to @ 4k is around 40% easier, which allows smaller sealing margins on the poppet which also allows the valve to open easier...
I personally feel the pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to regulating an air gun but certainly don't feel it is a must, more of a to each their own kind of thing. If you're satisfied with the results you're getting unregulated then there is nothing wrong with that!
-Matt
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Don't forget that regulation reduces the required hammer strike (cocking force) generally by a good margin(30-50%~). Allows you to run lighter hammers or very light springs. Hammer bounce isn't as violent and the action is much more tamer in a regulated rifle versus unregulated. In some rifles with 4-4.5k+ fill pressures it would be incredibly hard to design a valve to do well unregulated, especially in calibers over .357 cal! Not to say 4k~ fill rifles are the standard for the future but when it comes to very large ports and high fill pressures you can have a valve that is INCREDIBLY hard to open. Once regulated @ 2500~ the energy required to open the valve opposed to @ 4k is around 40% easier, which allows smaller sealing margins on the poppet which also allows the valve to open easier...
I personally feel the pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to regulating an air gun but certainly don't feel it is a must, more of a to each their own kind of thing. If you're satisfied with the results you're getting unregulated then there is nothing wrong with that! -Matt
I agree 100% on using a regulator for the above reasons as well a ruling out all of the variables for maximum consistency to achieve maximum efficiency. Whether it is a powder burner, air gun or a bow and arrow the force on the projectile, as well as it's weight, has to be consistent in order to achieve the same point-of-impact and velocity.
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Ribbonstone,
First off, great thread as usual! Your data collection and sharing and analysis is tops!
Now I may be new to airgun tuning but I've always thought regulators were for consistent pressure and thus consistent velocities. Like you stated, they are doing work so they have to be using some of the compressed air stored energy. Sure they may bring up efficiency in an inefficient setup but what happens in a rifle already tuned for efficiency?
The main reason I was ever concerned about efficiency was to bring down muzzle report. All my guns get enough shots that it's not a concern to me, but I could see if someone wanted to complete a shooting match without refilling. Then shot count would matter.
I've always thought accurate rifles were most interesting. I guess some people feel the most efficient rifle is most interesting. To each his own. There's room for everyone. :)
I just figured I'd kick in my $.02 ;D
Thanks,
Taso
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Interesting to bring up rifles with 4-4.5K fills in .357 cal and then suggest they might be better regulated at 2500.... I can't see anyone getting even close to the same FPE with 60% of the pressure, unless you plan on nearly doubling the barrel length.... but perhaps 4 ft. barrels are OK in some situations....
Personally I don't think regulators are practical in Big Bores with hundreds of FPE because of the huge plenums required.... but again, maybe I'm missing some magic that has occurred recently.... It might be possible in a benchrest gun with double tubes, where one is the plenum and the other the reservoir.... but I'd hate to have to pack it around hunting.... which is what large calibers are usually intended for....
I still think that with few exceptions, where the gun is designed around the purpose, regulators are still for low to medium power applications....
Bob
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Interesting to bring up rifles with 4-4.5K fills in .357 cal and then suggest they might be better regulated at 2500.... I can't see anyone getting even close to the same FPE with 60% of the pressure, unless you plan on nearly doubling the barrel length.... but perhaps 4 ft. barrels are OK in some situations....
Personally I don't think regulators are practical in Big Bores with hundreds of FPE because of the huge plenums required.... but again, maybe I'm missing some magic that has occurred recently.... It might be possible in a benchrest gun with double tubes, where one is the plenum and the other the reservoir.... but I'd hate to have to pack it around hunting.... which is what large calibers are usually intended for....
I still think that with few exceptions, where the gun is designed around the purpose, regulators are still for low to medium power applications....
Bob
I couldn’t agree more!! Use regulators to smooth out the bell curve in a small bore or use it in a mid power gun with huge ports that don’t need big plenums but in a big bore making big power or even mid bores that need plenums over 70cc it just forces the gun to become oversized and not manageable in the field. There’s a right place for Regulators and obvious wrong place.
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I admit.. I was more interested in a regulator before I got a compressor. Pumping or making the 80 mile round trip to fill tanks made efficiency a factor. Now I just fill and shoot til I lose POI and fill 'er up.
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I admit.. I was more interested in a regulator before I got a compressor. Pumping or making the 80 mile round trip to fill tanks made efficiency a factor. Now I just fill and shoot til I lose POI and fill 'er up.
Efficiency and shot count are not always on the same boat. You can have less efficiency and a higher shot count at the same power if you have a set up that works over a wider pressure spectrum. So yes efficient guns are great but not always the answer.
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Those are sure some amazingly tight es over a large shot count Ribb! I wish I could figure out what I'm doing wrong and get my Qb78 pcp to shoot so well for so many shots! Maybe I have too large a port hole or something out of balance. Super tuning, I agree with es like those regulating isn't really necessary!
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There are SOOO many PCP air guns that come un-regulated which shoot great !! Generally when we weigh said specific rifles in a state of factory non regulated to a converted regulated do we generally get debate of which is best.
Being a competitive shooter & hunter ONLY requiring modest 40 ft lbs or less power from his PCP's, REGULATED is the only way to go offering shot to shot consistency over a broad pressure range simply not obtainable in a bell curve tuned un-regulated gun .... IMO.
No different than the folks shooting powder burning guns who are happy with factory loaded ammo arguing with those who hand load .... good enough is, what ever your expectations of good enough is met ???
Some simply expect & want more which is just a choice made based upon expectations.
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No different than the folks shooting powder burning guns who are happy with factory loaded ammo arguing with those who hand load .... good enough is, what ever your expectations of good enough is met ???
Some simply expect & want more which is just a choice made based upon expectations.
That's a great explanation Scott. Coming from 40+ years of powder burning bench rest environment I ruled out every variable by gaging, weighing, measuring, timing and reaming every component to get consistence POI's.
Then again, that's me as I am not a hunter because I am a paper puncher and a tinker first. That is why I enjoy Air Gunning because there are so many variables and challenges to overcome in order to achieve sub MOI's. My grandsons, 8 & 10 where to young for power burners, so not to upset the mothers, I started them shooting air guns and now we are all hooked. I love this site!
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Me I will take regulated every time as I usually hand pump when I'm at home. How many pump strokes are needed to pressurize a fill hose and crack open the fill valve? All those pumps are wasted and dumped every time I top off a gun. That may mean filling 3 times to every one time on a reg to keep the velocities in the 2% percent sweet spot. That would be 15 pump strokes at least that is wasted.
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Very interesting read..
A reg does also take up space in the airtube or the prechamber thus reducing air capacity mainly a problem in small tubes,a reg. On a Theo will reduce the prechamber volume so might need a external prechamber for max power settings in a .25cal
Have 2 rapids In .20 one regged one fastflowed makes very little difference in accuracy but with the regged gun you need shoot slowly or the prechamber will not be at the correct pressure and you will get vertical spread at longer ranges.
A regulated pcp has more parts to adjust/fail so for hunting I prefer the fastflow but setting it up efficiently takes a bit of tinkering.
With a reg tuning is much easier I think..
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I do like my Dominator, it's regulated and I get a lot of good shots with it. I think it has a 210cc air tube but I can put 250bar in it.
I think a Huma regulator would probably be much better but this is good enough for me, I've been using the JSB18.13's with it and all shots seem to be very accurate, its me that isn't always so accurate.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4422/36658708503_b9bb1833c0_b.jpg)
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That's sure a nice string Wayne! Lots of consistent shots!
I'm happy with the bstaley mod I did today on my CP-1M, kind of a poor man's regulator in this case, though some different springs should get it even more consistent. Filled to 1800psi (bulk fill set up) I got 39 shots within 25fps( 436-461fps) of each other and 53 within 43fps (423-46. Big change from before the oring!
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Different way of looking at it.
Those un-regulated rifles shown above have a pretty decent 2% area...some a 1% area long enough to be useful....so it's not that un-regulated rifles can't shoot tight variation strings, just that the strings aren't typically all that long and you have to test to know where they live.
So far as the target is concerned...assume the same pellets/same velocity...10 shots inside of 1 1/2-2% varation from an unregulated rifle vs. the same number of shots inside 1-1.5% varation shot from a regulated rifle....both at a single seperate target at 50yards.
You going to blindly bet on regulation's 1/2% difference, or put more weight on all the other factors that go into a good group (and lests assume an on-center of target group)?
It is NOT THAT I am anti-regulation....I just use it differently. regulation is absolutly great when set up for a really long string of moderate energy uniform shots. It's not so great to me when set up for a moderate to short short string of higher power shots.
I just have to find a reason to NEED a medium power long shot string. Can get plenty of great velocity varaions at the low end of things (match speeds)....can get a pretty decent number of shots at the tradtional UK 12 foot pound limit....but once you start micing "power" with "regulation", I tend to pass.
Why "pass"? Well...if I want power, then I want to shoot big critters there just aren't that many at a sitting needing shooting.
If there is a "carp load" of little critters needing shooting...they are little citters...and they dont need mega-power to shoot. regulation comes in handy so that shot #37 is pretty much the same as shot #77, but I tend to go for really long shot strings.
As for efficiency and power....a weird example.
.25PCP's were pretty much just getting posts/popular at the time I made this 3K PCP QB78 conversion. (OK..co-made, as it was put togehter by Roy at Mountain air as a co2 rifle...I just converted it to a new PCP tube).
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/QB%20mods/b832ae68-2606-421f-b202-830e48764019.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/QB%20mods/b832ae68-2606-421f-b202-830e48764019.jpg.html)
First PCP .25, and even though I was using a pretty basic QB valve (dumped the piercing pin and made a Delrin valve stem seal), wanted +50 foot pounds (at lest THEN...that was the dividing point for me between .22 and .25. That kind of changed with the introcution of some super-heavy weight .22's and .25's).
So I cranked it most of the way up....and got this (remember, that's about 115-117cc's of air volume, so long shot counts at high power just are not going to be in the cards.
Figured...what what the devil...may as well crank it up some more and see what it can do still using the stock valve body.
So I retuned it a bit. Increased spring tesnion slightly to get it running right at higher pressure and slighly reduced the striker weight.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/QB%20mods/a39aa7d0-6579-4e5e-b5e5-f52fda15185a_zps5c51a012.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/QB%20mods/a39aa7d0-6579-4e5e-b5e5-f52fda15185a_zps5c51a012.jpg.html)
Still have the rifle....it's tuned pretty much just the same as it has been for the last several years of use ( little retune here and there as springs relax a bit, valve stem seals get beat up and mashed out, etc.).....still has that 6X scope with the "Enemy at the GAtes" type reticle....still works as well as it ever did.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/QB%20mods/6996cc9c-e31e-49c2-a6dc-f22c8f96cd68_zps39ea8204.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/QB%20mods/6996cc9c-e31e-49c2-a6dc-f22c8f96cd68_zps39ea8204.jpg.html)
So...no...am not all about 1% counts ('cause I've not found a differnece when out in the woods from 1% t0 4%) and not all about "weaker" energy levels.
And by infernce, am not all about regulation either.
I do use regulated rifles.
I use them when moderate power fo a long-long shot count is the goal. Are times when this is very useful, and I will go to regulation for it (well aware than that long shot count it going to be "bought" with a wide pressure range I have to replace).
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I hear ya Ribbs my Prod does really good for a 24 shot string averaging 25fpe but I've also got a .125 transfer port along with the TSS which really helps conserving air, if I end up getting an SS valve for it I might be able to get a 30fpe 24 shot string with it I'm hoping. I'll be able to reach out a little further with it that way plus if I really wanted to I could cut it down to more power at a 16 shot string.
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Just trying to show that low power or high power, the number os shots (which is basically what regulation is about)depends on what you are using the PCP for.
That high power .25 would be hard put to earn the same energy for 12 shots...and considering I'm pretty much taking out ONE particular pest, I'm not very likely to shoot 3 times much less 12.
But lets consider that somehow you really think you need +50 foot pounds to shoot tree squirrels (delusional at best...but it seems to be a common delusion).
Over the last 20-25 years, I've lived within (1) the squirrel season and (2) the legal limit of squirrels taken per day...which isn't hard to do. I won't answer for my youth, where I kind of skirted those rules. MY legal limit is 8 a day, so unless I intend to shoot each one twice, won't need 16 shots an outing...if I did everything right and I had a perfect day, would only need 8. I split the difference and when with 12.
That's NOT what I use that particular rifle for....I've no need for that much energy for a "tree rat". But once in awhile, I do have a raccoon, 'possum, or nutria that thinks my back yard/trash can is its personal free lunch (or dinner...they do tend to like night).
So I've been thinking about adjusting it UP...even if it's only 5-6 "good" shots....done right, I'd not need more than one.
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Ribbonstone,
I'm gonna have to agree with you on the unregulated max powered pcp's in .25 caliber and up. For me the reason for having them is either as a short range pest raccoon gun and I'd like to try 100 yard target shooting.
Pesting would be capped at 20 yards and raccoon killzone accuracy. So in my situation super low es is not required but I'd like the most power to make a humane kill. I may have the time to take a follow up shot and I'd also like a finishing shot just in case. So three would work for me.
I'd like to regulate the 100 yard gun but I don't think it would be possible if I would be using the heavier pellets or lead bullets in the 800 fps velocity range. But I just remembered I could shoot tethered from a regulated scba tank if allowed for NUAH.
I wouldn't have considered .25 caliber but I came across a .25 marauder at about the same price it would take to convert and moderate one of my B51's. So the Marauder for 100 yard and most likely a .25 Sentry from Flying Dragons for the pesting rifle since it's pretty compact.
12 fpe pcp guns could be regulated but springers work great at that power level. I think 12 fpe is plenty for squirrels and like sized game.
The middle power range could benefit from regulation and still have a decent shot count but then you're getting into rainbow trajectories for the heavier pellets.
Taso
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My closest comparison is a Synrod 25 cal, which for a number of years was just conventional tune to 16 shots @ 40+ FPE ay 2% Es. After regulating/modifying I have double that shot count, and probably can get a little more.
Originally this was a bigger critter/pest gun, ie raccoon, opossum, woodchuck, beaver (permit). Outside of the beaver, they were basically single opportunities, and 16 shots was more than enough. Even for the beavers, don't believe ever went past 8 shots on three beavers.
Now, since it is regulated, and double that shot count, it does get used a little more. On evenings, I sit on the back deck, and may plink at the 50yd or even the 100yd targets. I can take a few shots, and not have to go do another fill. I also don't hesitate to use it on grays in the yard. But, still more than enough shots. Allot of people probably don't have the luxury to use a 25 cal in their back yards, though.
My more recent builds, have been to get OEM Mrod performance (fpe and shot count) in a lighter package, ie a long tube Prod. My target was 30 shots @ 30FPE, but I'm still shy of that. This is regulated with valve/port mods.
With some of the Prod results that Travis is showing with his ART valve, I might reconsider 25 cal on the same platform, non-regulated. I guess I look at using regs and modifications to downsize the gun, vs having a gazillion shots. I remember how boring it was with long strings when I reg'ed my 177 Mrod. ;)
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I’ll speak in favor of the magic of regulation, specifically on platforms that waste air due to hammer bounce, such as .25 Mrods. Its been so much easier for me to tune for minimal hammer bounce on a regulated setup over an unregulated setup (on non-SSD systems). Therefore I’ve seen big improvements in efficency on those kind of regulated setups.
Where I’ve seen a dramatic drop in efficency is on my .177 Marauder. The oring buffer mod at a high fill pressure and unregulated makes for much more efficent air usage than a low pressure regulated tune. And yet, I would’t trade it for the overall tight ES I get on the regulated tune and the shot count I get because I can fill the gun so much higher than where I would need to on an unregulated tune.
I do believe regulation has greatly improved my 100 yard groups both on my .30 Flex and my .25 Marauder.
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I do believe regulation has greatly improved my 100 yard groups both on my .30 Flex and my .25 Marauder.
And THAT seems like a great outcome! 🙂
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Sometimes I feel as if regulation losses it's "magic" for me too. I really enjoy the use of regulation for the shot count and consistency but, my issue with it is that a regulator will not allow the full potential of power to be used in that particular gun.
It would be great to have both worlds (regulated/un-regulated) in one gun that can be switched on or off by the turn of "something".
I know my 25 Synrod will do just over 100fpe with it's .22" porting and a 55 grain projectile (un-regulated) but, without regulation the shot string is so short to keep it reasonably low around 4% ES at lower power levels.
So I deal with a 40fpe over 40 shots, 50fpe at 40 shots, and 62fpe for 16 shots on regulation (all 3%ES or less). As everyone said, I am not complaining but, just knowing that the gun can produce over 100fpe un-regulated makes me a little disappointed because I know the capabilities of the power level and it's one or the other.
I really would like one gun that does it all. The next question I keep asking myself is, how much power and shot count do I really need to do some plinking then go into hunt mode.
Not taking a moose or hog here. Squirrel hunt up to racoon only. Last couple hunts I did was only a few shots. No reason to shoot if there's nothing there or if your just going for that one "bigger" game.
So you see, I continuously going back and forth to pull my regs in my head. 30fpe to 40 fpe is devastating on any small game at the ranges of our guns (100yards).
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It would be great to have both worlds (regulated/un-regulated) in one gun that can be switched on or off by the turn of "something".
Earlier this year, Crosman announced a Marauder just like this but cancelled before production. I hear they are planning a regulated Marauder for 4th quarter this year though the Custom store.
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Thats some of the problem I've had.
Once you do all the work to install the regulator (and in some cases modify the tube), get the tuneup/mods just right, and get the regulated version running right....really aren't going to (or aren't able) to un-do all of that to give a even chance to unregulated.
I'm not debating MORE shots...that's pretty much the reason for regulation....but I am debating "better" shots if both were at the same energy level, the ame time/care in adjusting, and you stuck inside short string of the sweetest-of -the-sweet-spot for unregulated version of the same rifle.
(OK...got me...am also debating the maximum power (for when you really do want it...which isn't that often for me...but sometimes, I just want to go "all in" for a handful of shots).
It's not in our nature as airgunners to un-do what we worked hard and long to get "right" just to see.
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It's not in our nature as airgunners to un-do what we worked hard and long to get "right" just to see.
I agree Ribbonstone. New setup, new gun. If I don't have a need for the setup i will wait for when I'll want that setup again or sell it like it is and let someone else benefit from the time and labor it took me to get it the best I could.
They don't cost anything to keep and my guinea pigs/project rifles don't cost thousands of dollars. ;D
Taso
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When I get an SS valve for my Mrod I'm not even going to bother with a regulator, I've already got the heavier MDS hammer for it plus the TSS, I am aiming at using it for long distance shooting for coyote, ground hogs etc, it's a .25 and already very accurate at long distance but I want to get 60+ fpe with it, it also has a .187 transfer port in it, which probably doesn't really need to be that big with the SS valve but that's what's so nice about being able to simply adjust the TSS to get the power that I want.
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Seems like a lot of folks do like regulation in .25's at the 30-40 foot pound range. Nothing really wrong with that for most uses.
It's neither fish nor fowl...not the really big energy that the .25 can produce, but it works for 95% of whatever you're likely to shoot.
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Once you do all the work to install the regulator (and in some cases modify the tube), get the tuneup/mods just right, and get the regulated version running right....really aren't going to (or aren't able) to un-do all of that to give a even chance to unregulated.
True. But, even with conventional tunes, opening TP's, changing adjusting springs, much simpler than reg, but I never was one to use one gun for multiple different tunes/uses. If I re-tuned it, it stayed that way for a good while. I do see a few GTA members that have been able to do that though. Most of us appear to have the opposite problem, too many guns and not enough time to use them all. :D
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There is an answer for maximum power when required and yet lots of shots regulated when desired.... it's call TETHERING.... When do you need lots of shots?.... Typically when shooting from a bench or fixed location.... So tune the gun to deliver a narrow ES from your desired fill pressure, and then fill from a regulated tank.... When you want a ton of shots, simply leave the tank attached, and it will top up the gun to your fill pressure at every shot.... Need mobility, then remove the tether, and you are back to your powerful unregulated setup, with whatever shot string you tuned for....
Bob
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I like more shots between fills.
tethered means I need to buy a regulated tethering device which is more expensive than a regulator.
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Mind set more than anything else for me.
Know I can get a useful number of close velocity shots from a non-regulated rifle. As a hunter (I do keep "pesting" separate from "hunting"), I've never gotten more than 7 or 8 critters that needed shooting in a hunt (legal daily limits on game do apply equally to airguns).
My target shooting is based on the average of 4 or 5 sets of 5-shot groups (20-25 shots).
I do keep a couple of mega-shot HPA's (150-200 shots)...I really am rethinking that, as the use for that many shots at a sitting has pretty much evaporated with time.
In airgun paeer-or-steel-critter games, being able to shoot a full match with one fill (and lets include a shoot off for a tie score too...just incase you actually need it) seemed a good thing. Having a +200 shot regulated rifle was good entertainment at family gatherings (before time and distance kind of thinned the herd).
The few times I got to Oregon and some "digger squirrels", I could manage 50-60 shots in a full day's hunting....maybe there are places like that still left out there.
But I'm interested.
When you say you "need" more shots....I gotta ask, "what for"...but not in a sarcastic way, I'm just interested in the reasoning.
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As a springer guy who knows zilch about PCPs, I have to say I'm surprised the manufacturers haven't come up with an "adjustable" rifle that allows you to choose between regulation and full-power. I guess it isn't practical?
Tight groups,
Bob
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Concerning the overall fpe power loss between regulated and unregulated tunes, my .30 Flex in its first gen configuration could do 114fpe unregulated with a 63-64 grain BTT. Regulated it can do 100fpe with the same bullet with the light hammer and spring installed. The loss of 14fpe on a max power tune is accetable to me.
My Flex is in the process of being upgraded to current Cobra standards, except that I’m keeping my 17 inch barrel. I suspect I’ll gain more overall fpe potential, and if not, 100fpe is still nothing to sneeze at. Although 72 fpe is my favorite power level anyhow for pellets.
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One thing about these longer strings of posts (which is good), it makes you rethink and distill your reasoning.
Am thinking that regulation is great for some paper/steel critter games when you want to shoot a whole match without refilling.
But I'm also thinking a lot of it is becasue folks like to practice/plink/play with their hunting rifles, and getting more shots extends the play time between fill ups. Doesn't really change the air use, are just running up a larger 'air pressure debt' for that longer string of shots (in money-debt terms: are exchanging 12 small payments every month for 4 big payment every quarter).
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But I'm also thinking a lot of it is becasue folks like to practice/plink/play with their hunting rifles, and getting more shots extends the play time between fill ups. Doesn't really change the air use, are just running up a larger 'air pressure debt' for that longer string of shots (in money-debt terms: are exchanging 12 small payments every month for 4 big payment every quarter).
No interest on those bigger payments, though. In fact, a very slight reduction, because less waste in refilling the hose. :)
I can tell you I'm not going back to pumping for each shot! ;)
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And I'm more of a pay-as-you-go guy...we get to about the same place.
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I've got no issues with regulating my .25. I have been able to get 32 shots at 51.5 fpe and 24 shots at 55 fpe. Both tunes are under a 2% ES. I find both tunes great for plinking or hunting. As long as the accuracy in there all is well with me with regulated or unregulated. I like the 50 yard and beyond ranges and find my tunes very accurate and fun to shoot with reasonable shot count for both.