GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: DirtyF9 on September 12, 2017, 03:02:59 AM
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So I have a thread going in Air Gun Gate about getting started. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132215.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132215.0)
I was recommended to talk to you guys more about it, since it appears I prefer those lovely German made rifles.
Right now I mostly have my sights on the R9 or HW95 or the RWS 34. I definitely want an iron sight coil spring rifle. Wood stock is a must. I am not of the opinion of higher velocity = better. I have 50 feet of shooting area in my yard. I don't plan on hunting, and have no background doing it. I'm not opposed to it, but this gun is really more for target shooting. I'd like to get into 10m in the future, and I know they use PCP, but want to start at the beginning and work my way there.
When I first started my research and proper air gunning education, I really was leaning toward the R7, due to the lower price point, still excellent quality. As I understand the HW30 is very similar to the R7 as well. I'm a bit concerned about the size of the rifle. I'm 6'4", 220 lbs and have a 30" reach. Having never held one, I wasn't sure if it would be comfortable with my frame.
I really like the globe front sight and the aperture inserts. I prefer my iron sights a hooded or globe sight. Are the Weihrauch nicer or more plain than the Beeman equivalents? Does one typically have a quality difference from the other? How's quality and enjoyment of shooting from RWS to Beeman/Weihrauch?
I'm comfortable spending around $400 for this rifle, but less is better, as long as it meets the needs. As impatient as I feel to get my very own rifle, I'm trying to get to a point of feeling educated enough in the subject to make an educated purchase. Thanks for taking the time to read this and I appreciate any suggestions or comments. I'd also love to hear anyone's experiences with various rifles and your take on a beautiful quality gun to get started with.
Dirty
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Actually none of the guns you mentioned are ten meter guns - but I think you knew that. The really serious ten meter guns are indeed PCP and way above your stated price. The lower end ten meter guns tend to be SSP or single stroke pump guns. Of course they will shoot further than ten meters but with their 500 fps speed they tend to have more drop than spring piston airguns.
Investigate the Daisy 853/953 series. There may be a 753 as well. Sometimes they come up on the GTA Classifieds. The length of pull may be a drawback for you but you could investigate a butt extension or a custom stock. You may wish to measure your personal length of pull. That is roughly the distance from your shoulder to where your trigger finger would normally be.
I am personally fond of the Diana 34 - it's pretty simple and cheap to work on, though it rarely needs it. The fit and finish is not quite up to Weihrauch standards but I'm more concerned with how a gun shoots. Most of the spring piston air rifles are over powered for ten meters and not accurate enough for serious competition. I suspect you'll want something with a peep sight and not an open sight. I believe the Daisy 853 comes with a peep. You'd have to purchase one for the other guns.
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Roadworthy gives good advice. The Daisys are near-10m rifles, easy to cock and safe enough in most back yards (less than 500 fps).
A more expensive option, but apparently gobs of fun (I have coveted one for years) is a FWB300. Again, low powered, but spring-piston, with an anti-recoil system, and creepily accurate. Also beautiful guns. Daisys are great shooters, but I don't think anyone would call them beautiful. They are fairly numerous for sale on the Yellow and elsewhere.
These choices pretty much assume that you will be content plinking and target shooting in the back yard. They are too slow for humane killing of all but the smallest "game" at the shortest ranges.
Another possibility, if you are more interested in a sporter stock and non-diopter sights would be the HW30.
And if you are interested in target shooting here in DFW, might give field target a look. We have a very friendly community here and get together to shoot a field target course once or twice a month. http://www.dallasftclub.org/ (http://www.dallasftclub.org/) Please, have a look at field target, you might like what you see, and if you do, you might consider an HW97, which is a man-sized rifle, for sure, but possibly heavier and harder shooting than you initially seek, but also a fine field target gun.
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You can find a lot of information on the internet at air gun vendors about a whole host of different air rifles.
I will expose my biases here. I like the side cock recoilless type air rifles such as the FWB300 and RWS54. The first is long out of production and can only be found used. They are phenomenally accurate and becoming very desirable to shooters for low power shorter range shooting out to about 30yds. At the other end of the spectrum is the Diana / RWS 54, it is high power and very good at ranges out to 75yds or so. The FWB isn't really powerful enough for hunting except birds and chipmunks but will do a number on paper or beer cans in the back yard. The 54 is known to be capable of killing groundhog sized critters.
To get a good basic education on air gunning with minimal investment of money, time, and exposure to advertising hype. I suggest going the the straightshooters.com website. They sell most of the good quality air rifles (a bit pricy though!) and have a whole series of articles in a column on the righthand side of their home page. Start at the top and read each article in sequence for a good basic education in the idiosyncrasies of air rifles. Then explore their offerings of air rifles. On the page about each rifle is a tab called our take. They suggest the best uses for each and have a listing of pellets they HAVE TESTED and chronographed. You can see the kinds of energies and weights available. They also show calculated velocities and energies and ballistic coefficients for each. They also sell sampler packs of about 20 different pellets (25 each) so you can find the ones that your new (well not yet bought) rifle will shoot well. Since they test shoot every rifle that goes through their shop, they have quite a collection of information. One thing they don't do is quote accuracies - too variable depending upon the shooter and the rifle.
Another thing to do is find and download (free!) the Hawke ChairGun Pro software. Tinkering with it will give you a host of information on how pellets travel and the effective ranges for each.
Regarding size - most serious air rifles are designed for adult men. If you can comfortably shoot a regular rifle or shotgun, you should be able to be comfortable with most air rifles.
Have fun and check in to this site often. Some really really knowledgeable people hang out here!!!
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There is a vendor called Krale in the the Netherlands that has the best deals on Weihrach rifles. There is no difference between the HW95 and R9 except maybe checkering. The HW30/ R7 are the same gun. The HW50 is similar in size to the HW95 but is 12 ft lb, so should have a little less recoil. The full power HW97 and 95 are about 13.5 ftlbs out of the box. You were asking about sights, so the HW97 and 77 are the same action, just the 77 has sights and the 97 has a stock with a higher comb for scoped use. Krale also sells uk spec 12 ft lb versions of some of the rifles. My HW97 is a 12 ft lb model from there and It has been great, although it takes a certain kind of stubbornness to stay with spring guns when PCPs are so easy to shoot.
I have shot a RWS34 and it was pretty jumpy, but the owner shot it pretty well in field target. Even so, he bought a HW97 from Krale when we found out how cheap they are.(his scores have stayed about the same...)
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There is a vendor called Krale in the the Netherlands that has the best deals on Weihrach rifles. There is no difference between the HW95 and R9 except maybe checkering. The HW30/ R7 are the same gun. The HW50 is similar in size to the HW95 but is 12 ft lb, so should have a little less recoil. The full power HW97 and 95 are about 13.5 ftlbs out of the box. You were asking about sights, so the HW97 and 77 are the same action, just the 77 has sights and the 97 has a stock with a higher comb for scoped use. Krale also sells uk spec 12 ft lb versions of some of the rifles. My HW97 is a 12 ft lb model from there and It has been great, although it takes a certain kind of stubbornness to stay with spring guns when PCPs are so easy to shoot.
I have shot a RWS34 and it was pretty jumpy, but the owner shot it pretty well in field target. Even so, he bought a HW97 from Krale when we found out how cheap they are.(his scores have stayed about the same...)
Brother Man, you won't go wrong with a HW95/R9 .177/.20/.22 open sights are great. Scoped up she is great!! Best of Luck Brother Man
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Actually none of the guns you mentioned are ten meter guns - but I think you knew that. The really serious ten meter guns are indeed PCP and way above your stated price. The lower end ten meter guns tend to be SSP or single stroke pump guns. Of course they will shoot further than ten meters but with their 500 fps speed they tend to have more drop than spring piston airguns.
Investigate the Daisy 853/953 series. There may be a 753 as well. Sometimes they come up on the GTA Classifieds. The length of pull may be a drawback for you but you could investigate a butt extension or a custom stock. You may wish to measure your personal length of pull. That is roughly the distance from your shoulder to where your trigger finger would normally be.
I am personally fond of the Diana 34 - it's pretty simple and cheap to work on, though it rarely needs it. The fit and finish is not quite up to Weihrauch standards but I'm more concerned with how a gun shoots. Most of the spring piston air rifles are over powered for ten meters and not accurate enough for serious competition. I suspect you'll want something with a peep sight and not an open sight. I believe the Daisy 853 comes with a peep. You'd have to purchase one for the other guns.
Yeah, I'm aware of what the real 10m comp uses. I did look at the 753. I might pick one up if I joined a CMP affiliated club or something like that. A FWB300 would be a really good find, but that may be more of a second rifle. They're also a bit out of my price range, even used. For the moment, I want to get started on a coil spring. They tend to be finicky about how you shoot them, but if you learn how to, I think it can make you a better shooter, so I'm told. Basically, I want to do target shooting. Could be field target, 10m, etc. Also I can shoot around 50 ft in my back yard, so that's what I'll be doing most often.
Roadworthy gives good advice. The Daisys are near-10m rifles, easy to cock and safe enough in most back yards (less than 500 fps).
A more expensive option, but apparently gobs of fun (I have coveted one for years) is a FWB300. Again, low powered, but spring-piston, with an anti-recoil system, and creepily accurate. Also beautiful guns. Daisys are great shooters, but I don't think anyone would call them beautiful. They are fairly numerous for sale on the Yellow and elsewhere.
These choices pretty much assume that you will be content plinking and target shooting in the back yard. They are too slow for humane killing of all but the smallest "game" at the shortest ranges.
Another possibility, if you are more interested in a sporter stock and non-diopter sights would be the HW30.
And if you are interested in target shooting here in DFW, might give field target a look. We have a very friendly community here and get together to shoot a field target course once or twice a month. Please, have a look at field target, you might like what you see, and if you do, you might consider an HW97, which is a man-sized rifle, for sure, but possibly heavier and harder shooting than you initially seek, but also a fine field target gun.
Field target could definitely be fun. I don't hunt, or plan on it, but I also don't have anything against it. It's just something I've not done. Is an R7/HW30 too weak to do field target shooting? That would be something I'd be interested in doing.
You can find a lot of information on the internet at air gun vendors about a whole host of different air rifles.
I will expose my biases here. I like the side cock recoilless type air rifles such as the FWB300 and RWS54. The first is long out of production and can only be found used. They are phenomenally accurate and becoming very desirable to shooters for low power shorter range shooting out to about 30yds. At the other end of the spectrum is the Diana / RWS 54, it is high power and very good at ranges out to 75yds or so. The FWB isn't really powerful enough for hunting except birds and chipmunks but will do a number on paper or beer cans in the back yard. The 54 is known to be capable of killing groundhog sized critters.
To get a good basic education on air gunning with minimal investment of money, time, and exposure to advertising hype. I suggest going the the straightshooters.com website. They sell most of the good quality air rifles (a bit pricy though!) and have a whole series of articles in a column on the righthand side of their home page. Start at the top and read each article in sequence for a good basic education in the idiosyncrasies of air rifles. Then explore their offerings of air rifles. On the page about each rifle is a tab called our take. They suggest the best uses for each and have a listing of pellets they HAVE TESTED and chronographed. You can see the kinds of energies and weights available. They also show calculated velocities and energies and ballistic coefficients for each. They also sell sampler packs of about 20 different pellets (25 each) so you can find the ones that your new (well not yet bought) rifle will shoot well. Since they test shoot every rifle that goes through their shop, they have quite a collection of information. One thing they don't do is quote accuracies - too variable depending upon the shooter and the rifle.
Another thing to do is find and download (free!) the Hawke ChairGun Pro software. Tinkering with it will give you a host of information on how pellets travel and the effective ranges for each.
Regarding size - most serious air rifles are designed for adult men. If you can comfortably shoot a regular rifle or shotgun, you should be able to be comfortable with most air rifles.
Have fun and check in to this site often. Some really really knowledgeable people hang out here!!!
Thanks for the info, I will definite go peruse and read through the straightshooters website. I appreciate the information!
There is a vendor called Krale in the the Netherlands that has the best deals on Weihrach rifles. There is no difference between the HW95 and R9 except maybe checkering. The HW30/ R7 are the same gun. The HW50 is similar in size to the HW95 but is 12 ft lb, so should have a little less recoil. The full power HW97 and 95 are about 13.5 ftlbs out of the box. You were asking about sights, so the HW97 and 77 are the same action, just the 77 has sights and the 97 has a stock with a higher comb for scoped use. Krale also sells uk spec 12 ft lb versions of some of the rifles. My HW97 is a 12 ft lb model from there and It has been great, although it takes a certain kind of stubbornness to stay with spring guns when PCPs are so easy to shoot.
I have shot a RWS34 and it was pretty jumpy, but the owner shot it pretty well in field target. Even so, he bought a HW97 from Krale when we found out how cheap they are.(his scores have stayed about the same...)
Sounds to me like you're saying I need all the things ;D thanks for your take on the different rifles. I'll definitely poke through them more. There's so many of em, so coming in it's an overload. Especially since there's basically two of the same gun with Beeman/Weihrauch.
Brother Man, you won't go wrong with a HW95/R9 .177/.20/.22 open sights are great. Scoped up she is great!! Best of Luck Brother Man
That seems to be the general consensus! Thanks!
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Diana's are good guns but Weihrauch's have better fit and finish as well as better sights.
The 30 is a great plinker but too short for your height and not enough power for field target.
Look at the 50S or the 95 Luxus for size and sights. Drop a JM plinkers kit in the 50 and it will be perfect for your 50 ft. At full power might do OK at field target. The 95 sub 12 fpe would be my second choice.
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Diana's are good guns but Weihrauch's have better fit and finish as well as better sights.
The 30 is a great plinker but too short for your height and not enough power for field target.
Look at the 50S or the 95 Luxus for size and sights. Drop a JM plinkers kit in the 50 and it will be perfect for your 50 ft. At full power might do OK at field target. The 95 sub 12 fpe would be my second choice.
So from what I understand, the 50S makes just a hair over 11 fpe. What exactly does the plinker kit do? shim the spring to increase power? Or is it a power plant replacement?
If that's the case, then the R9/HW95 should be able to make better than that. I would guess anywhere from 12 - 14 fpe real world?
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So I was just poking around for the HW95 Luxus that was mentioned. Is it true that Beeman is no longer putting out the same quality as they used to? Is the way to go a Weihrauch in their deluxe or Luxus models or whatever it is that they dub them if I want to get the quality that I'm looking for? This article says Beeman was bought out and is no longer putting out the same guns. Of course, it's also an article from 7 years ago.
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I recommend the FWB 300. It was made for target shooting 10m with aperture sights. It has the best 4 ounce trigger on a Springer. You can use it for field target if you replace the spring with slightly stronger one. Like all target rifles, it is heavy. It is very easy to shoot and not hold sensitive.
Good luck.
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An HW30 is a bit weak for FT shooting. There are two considerations there. First is generating enough power to knockdown a target at 55 yards reliably and that seems to take about 700 fps at the muzzle. The second is the increased velocity yields a flatter trajectory with less holdover and makes the shot more wind resistant.
Springers mostly shoot best, for FT purposes, at right around 12 fpe, which is just under 800 fps with an 8.5 gr pellet.
The other thing about FT if you think you want to go there, is that fixed barrels (under and side levers) tend to be preferred because of the attendant (superstitious?) accuracy not present in a break barrel. But, you can still have fun with it and some folks get good results with break barrels in FT.
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So I was just poking around for the HW95 Luxus that was mentioned. Is it true that Beeman is no longer putting out the same quality as they used to? Is the way to go a Weihrauch in their deluxe or Luxus models or whatever it is that they dub them if I want to get the quality that I'm looking for? This article says Beeman was bought out and is no longer putting out the same guns. Of course, it's also an article from 7 years ago.
Beeman, a company formed by an airgun nut many years ago, used to be the importer of Weihrauch air rifles and redesignated them R1, R7, R9, etc. That company no longer exists, but is now a trade name applied to Chinese guns that may or may not be ok.
So you are really looking at buying a Weihrauch gun new today (there may be a few new old stock Beeman Weihrauchs in stock here and there, but "Beeman" does not sell them anymore). The ongoing reference to Weihrauch rifles by their former Beeman designations is an historical oddity.
The place to go for new Weihrauch rifles is Krale Schietsport in Holland.
Two of the Dallas FT shooters have posted in this thread (Cliff, c_m_shooter, and I). Cliff was immensely helpful in getting me started in FT. The next match is at Elm Fork Shooting Sports on October 14. Come on out and just spectate if you want. It's really a friendly and welcoming group and we seem to love newbs.
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Adam;
If I were you, I would open the search a little. There are wonderful alternatives that lie at around $500 and that would satisfy your airgunning needs from now till 3 or 4 years to come. Now I said "needs"; your "wants" for sure will outstrip that in no time flat.
I would SERIOUSLY look into a Walther LGV Master Ultra. You can improve the trigger with a simple change of a screw with no disassembly of the gun, or change it altogether for a number of aftermarket parts. You can mount a peep sight and a front globe sight fairly easily. They are accurate. Match accurate. And you can get the 12 ft-lbs version to do FT AND Match with no changes except for the sighting system (with the right pellets). They retail in the Netherlands for about $500
I've shot the LGV in FT and can tell you that it does do well. Look for a review of the SIGHTRON SIH 4-12X40 AO scope in the E-Magazine that cannot be mentioned here and you will see what I mean.
If you want something more 10M'ish, then look for an Anschutz 380, sometimes they can be had for about $500, are a much better gun than the FWB 300 (as demonstrated in the Olympics) and will be a gun that will outshoot you for many, many, years.
While I do understand the concept of "budgets" I also understand that spending $400 to "just make do" is a vastly inferior alternative to spending $500 and thinking "Darn, this IS FUN!" every time you pull the trigger.
Sorry to add to your woes, but you'll also find that in here, we are all "facilitators" of the neighbor's addictions. LOL!
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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So from what I understand, the 50S makes just a hair over 11 fpe. What exactly does the plinker kit do? shim the spring to increase power? Or is it a power plant replacement?
If that's the case, then the R9/HW95 should be able to make better than that. I would guess anywhere from 12 - 14 fpe real world?
The plinker kit will get you closer to the 30 power level.
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/1159287.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/1159287.htm)
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I recommend the FWB 300. It was made for target shooting 10m with aperture sights. It has the best 4 ounce trigger on a Springer. You can use it for field target if you replace the spring with slightly stronger one. Like all target rifles, it is heavy. It is very easy to shoot and not hold sensitive.
Good luck.
Thanks Gonzav. I've looked at the FWB 300, they look like beautiful rifles. My wife is getting me a wood stock 753 for Christmas from CMP, so I'll use that for a bit and graduate into an FWB300 or something equally nice or nicer.
An HW30 is a bit weak for FT shooting. There are two considerations there. First is generating enough power to knockdown a target at 55 yards reliably and that seems to take about 700 fps at the muzzle. The second is the increased velocity yields a flatter trajectory with less holdover and makes the shot more wind resistant.
Springers mostly shoot best, for FT purposes, at right around 12 fpe, which is just under 800 fps with an 8.5 gr pellet.
The other thing about FT if you think you want to go there, is that fixed barrels (under and side levers) tend to be preferred because of the attendant (superstitious?) accuracy not present in a break barrel. But, you can still have fun with it and some folks get good results with break barrels in FT.
Beeman, a company formed by an airgun nut many years ago, used to be the importer of Weihrauch air rifles and redesignated them R1, R7, R9, etc. That company no longer exists, but is now a trade name applied to Chinese guns that may or may not be ok.
So you are really looking at buying a Weihrauch gun new today (there may be a few new old stock Beeman Weihrauchs in stock here and there, but "Beeman" does not sell them anymore). The ongoing reference to Weihrauch rifles by their former Beeman designations is an historical oddity.
The place to go for new Weihrauch rifles is Krale Schietsport in Holland.
Two of the Dallas FT shooters have posted in this thread (Cliff, c_m_shooter, and I). Cliff was immensely helpful in getting me started in FT. The next match is at Elm Fork Shooting Sports on October 14. Come on out and just spectate if you want. It's really a friendly and welcoming group and we seem to love newbs.
Yeah, I kind of figured the HW30 wouldn't quite do it. It's important that whatever I get should be fun to shoot, but it would be nice if it could be used in some kind of matches, so that I can enjoy more about the sport. It doesn't have the be the perfect gun for FT necessarily, as long as I can shoot decent and enjoy it. There's always time to move into other rifles later to increase my chance at winning. I'm limited on rifle experience period, I've mostly done pistol shooting, and thrown a thousand or so rounds down range out of my M1 Carbine. Honestly I love peep sights more than anything else because of the M1 carbine.
So what would you recommend, besides the TX200 or some of the other crazy high end rifle for FT? HW50? Something else perhaps? I know there's some rifles around the 500 range that would be great, but a lot of those don't have iron sights, and investing into a scope is like buying another rifle all together when it comes to cost.
Really a shame about Beeman. I'm very new to air guns, clearly, and was under the impression they were still selling Weihrauch rifles. That explains a lot as to why people mostly refer to the Weihrauch rifles rather than the Beeman designations. Even if they still make pretty good quality guns, that kind of impression leaves a bit of a blemish on them for me. I'll be looking at Weihrauch from now on when it comes to those rifles.
I'll be out of town during the match that c_m_shooter was talking about, but I'll certainly be available on Oct 14th, and Elm Fork Shooting Sports is less than 40 minutes from my house, so I'll definitely be there. Even if it's just to watch the whole time, I'd still like to come and check it out.
Adam;
If I were you, I would open the search a little. There are wonderful alternatives that lie at around $500 and that would satisfy your airgunning needs from now till 3 or 4 years to come. Now I said "needs"; your "wants" for sure will outstrip that in no time flat.
I would SERIOUSLY look into a Walther LGV Master Ultra. You can improve the trigger with a simple change of a screw with no disassembly of the gun, or change it altogether for a number of aftermarket parts. You can mount a peep sight and a front globe sight fairly easily. They are accurate. Match accurate. And you can get the 12 ft-lbs version to do FT AND Match with no changes except for the sighting system (with the right pellets). They retail in the Netherlands for about $500
I've shot the LGV in FT and can tell you that it does do well. Look for a review of the SIGHTRON SIH 4-12X40 AO scope in the E-Magazine that cannot be mentioned here and you will see what I mean.
If you want something more 10M'ish, then look for an Anschutz 380, sometimes they can be had for about $500, are a much better gun than the FWB 300 (as demonstrated in the Olympics) and will be a gun that will outshoot you for many, many, years.
While I do understand the concept of "budgets" I also understand that spending $400 to "just make do" is a vastly inferior alternative to spending $500 and thinking "Darn, this IS FUN!" every time you pull the trigger.
Sorry to add to your woes, but you'll also find that in here, we are all "facilitators" of the neighbor's addictions. LOL! ;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I could probably swing $500, as long as it's versatile enough to be okay in the yard in the suburbs as well as something I can use in some competition for this first rifle. I looked at the Walther LGV Master Ultra, and it seems to be discontinued. I found one on the site mentioned by TwiceHorn, Krale Schietsport. It was about $466 USD, and after shipping I would guess closer to $500. Says 11.8 FPE for one version of it, so that falls within range for FT or other competitive shooting, and not too crazy for shooting in my yard I wouldn't think. Is it super loud? I love me some Walther firearms. I have quite a few of their pistols, and I wouldn't part with them unless my family was in danger of not having food on the table or lose the roof over their head. I gotta say. That LGV is extremely pretty. Sadly the 11.8 FPE version is sold out on Krale, and they have the 17 FPE version, but that won't fall into what I'm looking for in versatility. Know of any other sites that may offer them for a decent price? AoA looks like they have one, but it's something like $619. Does Walther have another offering that replaced the LGV?
I'm not sure what E-Mag cannot be mentioned, but I'm sure I'll find out, though it will escape me as to why for a while I imagine. I'll look it up though, thanks.
I'm not ready for the investment a PCP requires yet, but I certainly enjoy looking at them.
Honestly I'm sure I could have quite a bit of fun with a lower end rifle, I know I enjoy smacking paper erratically with my Crosman 66 Powermaster. It's just not that accurate and it's old and worn out. I don't have any qualms going a bit higher, though $500 is definitely pushing my extreme spending limits. I definitely understand the value you can get from just a bit more money to bump up into the next level though. It's when you hit the diminishing returns of getting to ultra high end and paying hundreds for that tiny bit of extra that starts making me cringe. I was honestly setting it to about $400ish because I'd have a little wiggle room to get the accessories and extras that would be nice to have. Also I'm going to build a small range in my yard, so a little money will be put into that. I appreciate your input!
Dirty
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On the Beeman deal, it may be that Pyramyd Air has the right to sell Weihrauchs under the Beeman name, I'm not sure. But the Beeman "company," such as it is, sells Chinese guns. Makes no real nevermind, as they were mostly the same guns.
If you want a solid springer that is FT capable without breaking the bank, this right here is your huckleberry. https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw97-k.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw97-k.html)
It will be about $400 to your door, I think $420 complete.
The only drawback it has for general purpose shooting is its weight. With a scope, it is quite a pig for offhand shooting. On the other hand, that same weight makes it almost not-at-all hold-sensitive.
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If you want a solid springer that is FT capable without breaking the bank, this right here is your huckleberry. https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw97-k.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw97-k.html)
It will be about $400 to your door, I think $420 complete.
The only drawback it has for general purpose shooting is its weight. With a scope, it is quite a pig for offhand shooting. On the other hand, that same weight makes it almost not-at-all hold-sensitive.
And, HOW exactly are you planning on Adam adding his required Iron / Peep sights?
Just sayin' . . . .
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If you want a solid springer that is FT capable without breaking the bank, this right here is your huckleberry. https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw97-k.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw97-k.html)
It will be about $400 to your door, I think $420 complete.
The only drawback it has for general purpose shooting is its weight. With a scope, it is quite a pig for offhand shooting. On the other hand, that same weight makes it almost not-at-all hold-sensitive.
And, HOW exactly are you planning on Adam adding his required Iron / Peep sights?
Just sayin' . . . .
Haha, fair enough. I never fail to miss something salient in a post. Well, I guess there's this. https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw77-9297.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw77-9297.html)
Do you disfavor Weihrauchs for some reason (it has just occurred to me that I don't think I have ever seen you write about HWs)? Or just a bit of a contrarian?
And, Adam, I too prefer a peep sight most of the time. Given your expressed interest in FT, a scope is pretty much a must. I would recommend this one as a starter for Hunter class. https://www.amazon.com/4-16X56-Scope-36-color-Glass-Mil-dot/dp/B007IPBL62 (https://www.amazon.com/4-16X56-Scope-36-color-Glass-Mil-dot/dp/B007IPBL62) It isn't the greatest, but it will do just fine.
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I have an LGV Master Ultra, I also have a FWB 300. If I was to shoot in my backyard I think the Walther (pretty sure it is a Umarex product that Walther lets Umerex use the name) would make enough noise that it might call attention to itself, including the impact. The FWB is much quieter. The 300 is just a joy to shoot. I have shot SSP and PCP match rifles and still like workmanship of my 300. I know a former US team member that still enjoys his too. A lot of winning equipment is in your head. I have shot into the 570's in AP with both a Steyr LP10 and a "lowly" IZH46.
The fact that the LGV series is being phased out after only 5 years does not set well with me as I wonder about parts from Umarex in the very near future for mine. The other reason I don't think it is really a Walther is that Umarex markets Hammerli, Browning, and Ruger, none of who make spring air rifles. I have a tuned Weihrauch 35 that will shoot with my LGV off of a bench. My HW 98s are as good as it gets in my view, but they don't have the sight option you require. Now, while I don't have a HW95, it is the same action as a 98, so theoretically it can be a shooter especially with a sub 12# tune. It would also have a better trigger out of the box, and you will be able to get parts for it for quite some time to come.
Yes, Krale does have great pricing and faster shipping than domestic in most cases.
Good luck in your quest.
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If you want a solid springer that is FT capable without breaking the bank, this right here is your huckleberry.
It will be about $400 to your door, I think $420 complete.
The only drawback it has for general purpose shooting is its weight. With a scope, it is quite a pig for offhand shooting. On the other hand, that same weight makes it almost not-at-all hold-sensitive.
And, HOW exactly are you planning on Adam adding his required Iron / Peep sights?
Just sayin' . . . .
Haha, fair enough. I never fail to miss something salient in a post. Well, I guess there's this.
Do you disfavor Weihrauchs for some reason (it has just occurred to me that I don't think I have ever seen you write about HWs)? Or just a bit of a contrarian?
And, Adam, I too prefer a peep sight most of the time. Given your expressed interest in FT, a scope is pretty much a must. I would recommend this one as a starter for Hunter class. It isn't the greatest, but it will do just fine.
I'll check out the Hw77. I definitely don't disfavor the Weihrauchs, I just thought the Beeman rifles were still rebranded German made Weihrauch and not a chinese built copy. I'm definitely not going to pay a premium price for a Chinese made rifle, that I could buy for same or less that's German made. So Weihrauch it is over Beeman, unless maybe old stock. It's just easier to find Beeman and information on Beeman getting started. So that's the way I was leaning. I don't honestly have any bias, other than I'd prefer a British or German made rifle. I'm sure some of the American made ones are quite nice as well, but that's not for this section of the forum.
I'll probably shoot iron sights, even with the disadvantage. Eventually I will have a scoped gun. I like scoped guns, I just want to work some of my more basic skills before I use glass. I'll probably get something more like the HW97 when I decide to have glass. How are the Hawke scopes? I'll look at the one you linked as well
I have an LGV Master Ultra, I also have a FWB 300. If I was to shoot in my backyard I think the Walther (pretty sure it is a Umarex product that Walther lets Umerex use the name) would make enough noise that it might call attention to itself, including the impact. The FWB is much quieter. The 300 is just a joy to shoot. I have shot SSP and PCP match rifles and still like workmanship of my 300. I know a former US team member that still enjoys his too. A lot of winning equipment is in your head. I have shot into the 570's in AP with both a Steyr LP10 and a "lowly" IZH46.
The fact that the LGV series is being phased out after only 5 years does not set well with me as I wonder about parts from Umarex in the very near future for mine. The other reason I don't think it is really a Walther is that Umarex markets Hammerli, Browning, and Ruger, none of who make spring air rifles. I have a tuned Weihrauch 35 that will shoot with my LGV off of a bench. My HW 98s are as good as it gets in my view, but they don't have the sight option you require. Now, while I don't have a HW95, it is the same action as a 98, so theoretically it can be a shooter especially with a sub 12# tune. It would also have a better trigger out of the box, and you will be able to get parts for it for quite some time to come.
Yes, Krale does have great pricing and faster shipping than domestic in most cases.
Good luck in your quest.
I would imagine the FWB300 would be pretty quiet with a sub 600 fps velocity. I'd love to get one, or something equivalent or better sometime in the future. I'd rather start my 10m practice with something a bit more inexpensive like a 753 or 853. The LGV interested me because it's basically designed for sub 12 fps matches. Something I wouldn't feel out of place doing now, even if I'm terrible. 10m, I think is something you should be pretty good at before you try to get into matches. Umarex is actually the parent company for Walther, as I recall. They bought Walther back around '93. I'll keep my search going for a bit yet it seems. I'm trying not to rush into anything too quickly, until I feel like I find the rifle that fits the bill best. FT I think is my best option right now for competitive shooting where I wouldn't feel bad for being bad. Seems like it would be more fun loving, even though it's competitive. I could be wrong though.
Dirty
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Sorry, Adam. That bit about Weihrauchs was directed at Don Hector Medina. Sr. Medina is an airgun and field target expert, particularly as concerns springers, their ballistics, and optics. He seems to favor Dianas (the 56 specifically) for FT and quite a few agree with him. Similarly "contrarian" was his reco of the Anschutz over the FWB.
His website makes for some interesting reading. ctcustomairguns.com
The 77 and 97 are mechanically identical, with maybe some variation in barrel length (that doesn't seem to matter much, practically). The 77 has iron sights and a stock with a lower comb purportedly more adapted for iron sights (and less adapted for scopes).
I like and favor iron sights. But, with airguns we have to face the fact that the ballistics are "loopy" compared to powder burners, frequently necessitating the use of sizable holdovers for shooting with accuracy at varying ranges. A 12 ft lb rifle zeroed at 30 yards will have a ~1" drop at 10 yards and ~3" or more at 50. Scopes are better adapted for compensating for this via "mil dot" holdovers, or "clicked" elevation changes.
Whether you are actually going to shoot routinely at a wide variation of ranges is another matter. Field Target mandates it, though.
Just some food for thought.
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The Beeman "R" series are still rebranded Weirauchs. You'll just pay more for it. If interested in the 77 get the K model. It shoulders better than the full length 77. You can also remove the front blade and use the HW globe sight.
The Hawke Panorama's are nice scopes.
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Sorry, Adam. That bit about Weihrauchs was directed at Don Hector Medina. Sr. Medina is an airgun and field target expert, particularly as concerns springers, their ballistics, and optics. He seems to favor Dianas (the 56 specifically) for FT and quite a few agree with him. Similarly "contrarian" was his reco of the Anschutz over the FWB.
His website makes for some interesting reading. ctcustomairguns.com
The 77 and 97 are mechanically identical, with maybe some variation in barrel length (that doesn't seem to matter much, practically). The 77 has iron sights and a stock with a lower comb purportedly more adapted for iron sights (and less adapted for scopes).
I like and favor iron sights. But, with airguns we have to face the fact that the ballistics are "loopy" compared to powder burners, frequently necessitating the use of sizable holdovers for shooting with accuracy at varying ranges. A 12 ft lb rifle zeroed at 30 yards will have a ~1" drop at 10 yards and ~3" or more at 50. Scopes are better adapted for compensating for this via "mil dot" holdovers, or "clicked" elevation changes.
Whether you are actually going to shoot routinely at a wide variation of ranges is another matter. Field Target mandates it, though.
Just some food for thought.
My apologies. I was a little distracted with work when I read the post, so I mistook it as a comment directed toward me. I have however referred mostly to Beeman rebrands, and not Weihrauch, so I thought it was reasonable. I would guess that the Diana is the more popular FT rifle, since from what I've seen from them they're more typically side lever rifles, rather than break barrel. They're also well know for being well made rifles. Just a guess on my part. Break barrel don't seem to be in favor based on comments I've seen thus far. I'll check out his website for some more educational reading.
It seems that I'm too picky. Hard to find what I'm looking for exactly without doing some sort of modification. I'm not opposed to the break barrel, though I'm sure there are very legitimate reasons most people don't use them in FT. I know a lot of people are extremely serious about FT and have some huge money invested. Maybe if I enjoy some shooting in the FT comps, and try to do some of the springer only FT comps I'd do a bit better in those. I like the HW50, the 77 seems like a good option, especially since I can remove the front blade and use the globe sight, as JimL911 mentions. The Walther LGV Master Ultra seems like a great option, though difficult to find. If I get something closer to the 300 range on cost, I could swing the cost of glass at right around the same cost. Then I can have both iron and glass. If I get something around the price of the Walther, i wouldn't get any glass for it for quite a while. I'd still be happy losing with iron sights though :D
Honestly, I want to try some FT so I can get the experience dealing with a wide variation in range. It's good experience, and makes you learn the rifle and how to shoot better. I've not really ever done any long distance shooting with firearms, so I never had to deal with holdover too much. Something I need to learn. Experience and time will give me that.
The Beeman "R" series are still rebranded Weirauchs. You'll just pay more for it. If interested in the 77 get the K model. It shoulders better than the full length 77. You can also remove the front blade and use the HW globe sight.
The Hawke Panorama's are nice scopes.
Thanks for the info, extremely useful knowledge for selecting my air rifle. I'll also take a look at the Hawke Panorama scopes.
I would SERIOUSLY look into a Walther LGV Master Ultra. You can improve the trigger with a simple change of a screw with no disassembly of the gun, or change it altogether for a number of aftermarket parts. You can mount a peep sight and a front globe sight fairly easily. They are accurate. Match accurate. And you can get the 12 ft-lbs version to do FT AND Match with no changes except for the sighting system (with the right pellets). They retail in the Netherlands for about $500
HM
Is it worth getting the LGV Master Ultra in the higher power just to replace the power plant for the 11.8 FPE? It seems to be quite difficult to find the 11.8 FPE now. Also, should I be concerned with a lack of replacement parts, because this line is discontinued? Do you have any other recommendations because of the discontinued model?
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Here's an idea, Adam. If you can make it to the Dallas Match on 10/14, I am sure one of us can arrange to get you a springer to shoot for the entire match of 50 some odd shots, either an HW97 or a TX200 or Pro Sport.
That will give you a real world data point to work from. Whether you like the big heavy and more expensive springers and whether you think you want to continue in Field Target.
The offer is open really anytime, but I mention the upcoming match because one of the more amusing aspects of this hobby is that grown men start to behave like 10 year old kids in a candy or toy store with their need to get a gun, NOW and maybe another one later.
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Any decent air rifle can be a lot of fun! The ones being recommended are all great ones! Some of the differences being argued about are really nits on an elephant!!!
In my humble opinion, the major advantage of the FWB 300 and RWS 54 - 56 sequence is the recoilless systems that take care of the many hours of wondering what i did wrong with my hold this time that dozens of posts discuss. Almost everyone who gets a springer without such a system goes through the pain of developing a hold that works for them. The higher the power, the worse it is.
I spent a year or so chasing my tail with a break-barrel Walther (Chinese counterfeit by the way!) that I bought at a gun show from a fairly seedy-looking table holder cheap. I bought it initially as a chipmunk killer as i had a wall collapse after chipmunks undermined it. $3000 to repair - chipmunks gotta go!!
I then got a FWB300 (a real story behind that too! But I digress) and never looked back. The superlative accuracy and workmanship of the FWB300 became evident in as many one-hole groups that I wanted to shoot. I went on the hunt for a higher power rifle with a similar recoil control system and found the RWS54. Over 400 chipmunks and thousands of targets later, I love my RWS54 so much that I have commissioned Hector Medina to customize one like he uses in .20 caliber for me. He is building it now!!
Regarding shooting an air rifle as compared to powder firearms. I visualize it this way. An air rifle performs at 1/10th the distance like a powder arm. I mean. Shooting a air rifle at 10yds is like shooting a powder gun at 100yds. 50yds is 500yds. 100yds is 1000yds! The effort required to understand the ballistics and wind impacts is similar but with a much smaller investment in space and time.
Buy what trips your trigger (pun intended!) and get going. It's like candy, you won't just have one!!
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Dear Dirty F 9,
When using open sights you need a rifle stock with a low comb or you can not get your head low enough to see through the sights. With a scope, you head is about 1/2 inch-one inch higher. Often they are NOT compatible. Go to an FT match and just watch or borrow a rifle!!!!
-Y
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Haha, fair enough. I never fail to miss something salient in a post. Well, I guess there's this. https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw77-9297.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw77-9297.html)
Do you disfavor Weihrauchs for some reason (it has just occurred to me that I don't think I have ever seen you write about HWs)? Or just a bit of a contrarian?
And, Adam, I too prefer a peep sight most of the time. Given your expressed interest in FT, a scope is pretty much a must. I would recommend this one as a starter for Hunter class. https://www.amazon.com/4-16X56-Scope-36-color-Glass-Mil-dot/dp/B007IPBL62 (https://www.amazon.com/4-16X56-Scope-36-color-Glass-Mil-dot/dp/B007IPBL62) It isn't the greatest, but it will do just fine.
Mark;
I find the disassembly process of the HW's to be overly complicated (when compared to Dianas). I don't argue their quality of finish, nor their potential accuracy, but I've beaten too many of them to see them as "infalible".
The first rifle I bought for my girlfriend (now my wife), and the one she dubs her "engagement rifle" was an HW95. It fit the purpose perfectly. Light and easy to handle, we went grackle hunting on our first dates. She started using it in FT, but when I made her a 54 and her scores went up by 20% the handy 95 was relegated to the "plinking" category.
I've worked on enough of them to know their limitations and their assets.
Yes you can get extraordinarily accurate rifles in ANY brand, but when you put together the robustness of the Dianas, the service you can get (with direct help from Factory), and the bigger "engine" that can simply "cruise idly" at 12 ft-lbs, to ME it is a no brainer.
I would have loved to suggest a Diana to the OP (I've set up enough 54's as "Luft Gewehr Universal" -where the original LGU came from- capable of doing Match, Silhouette, and FT), but when the conditions of breakbarrel, 10 M shooting with Peeps, and some FT restrictions were added, then you would be out of his budget.
Admittedly I am MORE than contrarian when it comes to excessive faith in "branding". And the FWB 300 is the best example. The Anschütz 380 is a much better gun (capable out to 35 yards) and yet it gets little "press" and people that have NEVER shot BOTH side by side constantly elaborate on why the FWB is better. Go figure.
The silver lining of that is that you can find excellent 380's for less money than the average 300's.
Add to that the fact that some "airgunsmiths" used to import cheap, used, beaten, old FWB 300 Club guns from Germany to "restore" and sell at a premium, and you will realize that there are a bunch of so-so FWB 300's in the market. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
The OP asked about a break barrel, that is why I suggested the Walther LGV. While not many are used in the FT circuit, it is a gun that will outshoot most of us when properly setup and used. The lever-lock arrangement (borrowed from their 10M guns of decades ago) is also a good insurance against the BBB (break barrel blues) of distrusting the lock-up of your gun.
MOST of the parts inside the gun are standard industrial parts. EXCEPT for the piston seal, of which there is now at least two different aftermarket suppliers, you do not need ANYTHING from UMAREX, everything else can be replaced with standard ORings and Teflon Rings, and there are at least three different spring manufacturers that can help with the powerplant.
If you buy the rifle in any of its variants (from the Challenger, to the Master Pro), you only need to buy two or three piston seals, the first 12 ft-lbs spring, the Match Abzug (if you do not want to go the "Yankee Tune" way) and you will be set for a LOOOOONNNNNGGGG time.
Using a lash-on cheekpad would turn the iron-sights stock to a scope-set stock in no time flat. Some cheekpads are even velcro'ed or elastic.
Again, I was trying to setup the OP with what HE wanted, or seemed to want/need.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Haha, fair enough. I never fail to miss something salient in a post. Well, I guess there's this. https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw77-9297.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw77-9297.html)
Do you disfavor Weihrauchs for some reason (it has just occurred to me that I don't think I have ever seen you write about HWs)? Or just a bit of a contrarian?
And, Adam, I too prefer a peep sight most of the time. Given your expressed interest in FT, a scope is pretty much a must. I would recommend this one as a starter for Hunter class. https://www.amazon.com/4-16X56-Scope-36-color-Glass-Mil-dot/dp/B007IPBL62 (https://www.amazon.com/4-16X56-Scope-36-color-Glass-Mil-dot/dp/B007IPBL62) It isn't the greatest, but it will do just fine.
Mark;
I find the disassembly process of the HW's to be overly complicated (when compared to Dianas). I don't argue their quality of finish, nor their potential accuracy, but I've beaten too many of them to see them as "infalible".
The first rifle I bought for my girlfriend (now my wife), and the one she dubs her "engagement rifle" was an HW95. It fit the purpose perfectly. Light and easy to handle, we went grackle hunting on our first dates. She started using it in FT, but when I made her a 54 and her scores went up by 20% the handy 95 was relegated to the "plinking" category.
I've worked on enough of them to know their limitations and their assets.
Yes you can get extraordinarily accurate rifles in ANY brand, but when you put together the robustness of the Dianas, the service you can get (with direct help from Factory), and the bigger "engine" that can simply "cruise idly" at 12 ft-lbs, to ME it is a no brainer.
I would have loved to suggest a Diana to the OP (I've set up enough 54's as "Luft Gewehr Universal" -where the original LGU came from- capable of doing Match, Silhouette, and FT), but when the conditions of breakbarrel, 10 M shooting with Peeps, and some FT restrictions were added, then you would be out of his budget.
Admittedly I am MORE than contrarian when it comes to excessive faith in "branding". And the FWB 300 is the best example. The Anschütz 380 is a much better gun (capable out to 35 yards) and yet it gets little "press" and people that have NEVER shot BOTH side by side constantly elaborate on why the FWB is better. Go figure.
The silver lining of that is that you can find excellent 380's for less money than the average 300's.
Add to that the fact that some "airgunsmiths" used to import cheap, used, beaten, old FWB 300 Club guns from Germany to "restore" and sell at a premium, and you will realize that there are a bunch of so-so FWB 300's in the market. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
The OP asked about a break barrel, that is why I suggested the Walther LGV. While not many are used in the FT circuit, it is a gun that will outshoot most of us when properly setup and used. The lever-lock arrangement (borrowed from their 10M guns of decades ago) is also a good insurance against the BBB (break barrel blues) of distrusting the lock-up of your gun.
MOST of the parts inside the gun are standard industrial parts. EXCEPT for the piston seal, of which there is now at least two different aftermarket suppliers, you do not need ANYTHING from UMAREX, everything else can be replaced with standard ORings and Teflon Rings, and there are at least three different spring manufacturers that can help with the powerplant.
If you buy the rifle in any of its variants (from the Challenger, to the Master Pro), you only need to buy two or three piston seals, the first 12 ft-lbs spring, the Match Abzug (if you do not want to go the "Yankee Tune" way) and you will be set for a LOOOOONNNNNGGGG time.
Using a lash-on cheekpad would turn the iron-sights stock to a scope-set stock in no time flat. Some cheekpads are even velcro'ed or elastic.
Again, I was trying to setup the OP with what HE wanted, or seemed to want/need.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Thank you for the reply. I figured it would be thoughtful and interesting.
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Here's an idea, Adam. If you can make it to the Dallas Match on 10/14, I am sure one of us can arrange to get you a springer to shoot for the entire match of 50 some odd shots, either an HW97 or a TX200 or Pro Sport.
That will give you a real world data point to work from. Whether you like the big heavy and more expensive springers and whether you think you want to continue in Field Target.
The offer is open really anytime, but I mention the upcoming match because one of the more amusing aspects of this hobby is that grown men start to behave like 10 year old kids in a candy or toy store with their need to get a gun, NOW and maybe another one later.
I'd definitely enjoy that. I'm sure I'd learn a lot even if I just attended and spectated. I'll be available on the 14th. If you'd like to email me with some info or you can just message me on here, that'd be great. I definitely have an itch to get a rifle sooner rather than later, that's for sure. There's just so many options and it's impossibly difficult to choose!
From what I've gathered from reading all the posts, as well as what I've been reading outside and around the forum, if I want to do competition shooting PCP is really the way to go ultimately. A person can definitely do some good work with a springer, but underlever and side cocking mechanisms are king for the sport using that power plant. Break barrel come with some inherent design issues that are unfavorable for the sport, though it doesn't completely rule them out. I'm basically not going to find one that's all all rounder. So it looks like I need to accept that if I want irons, maybe something like a 30S or 50 would be good for shooting around my yard, though I'm not stuck on a break barrel. It just seems like a popular starter. If I want a springer to use for competition, Diana 34, 54, 56, HW77K, HW97K, TX200 HC or MK III seem to be the ones to go with, glassed. I can get an HW30S for about $200 it looks like, or a 50 for just a bit more than that. I can put aside some extra and work toward something more suited for competition. Each tool for the job is how I need to go. It seems like for that I'll need another $600 for a rifle, and probably need to budget something like $300 for a scope. More is always better in scopes, but I'm trying to not live in a dog house for the next year. Cause married with children.
Do people who use these rifles in FT typically use them with their stock power plants, or do most people buy the kits to modify them and reduce them to the <12 ft lbs. If it's a 20 ft lbs comp, is the stock power from a TX200 enough? If I recall correctly, it's somewhere between 13 and 15 from looking at numbers on straight shooters.
Thank you to all of you for taking the time to respond to these questions. I'm sure at this point I'm just going in circles. I appreciate all the advice from everyone, and I appreciate the time Hector Medina and TwiceHorn have taken to elaborate on these posts. It's definitely helped considerably and made me chew on some thoughts and questions.
Dirty
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This has been an excellent read for early Saturday morning guys, a huge wealth of knowledge we have gathered here.
I however don't share that quality. ;)
I am just a airgunner who dabbles in punching holes in paper, striving to make it all in one hole. But varying in distance.
So to Adam I am going to say... I know how money can be a limiting factor. I, like most, started out as a kid with a Pump gun then went to Powder Burners.. 40 years later I find myself back into airguns restarting with a spring powered gun. I bought a couple entry level ones and drooled over a Beeman R11 / Weihrauch HW98 (still do). As said, springers can be a devil to master the hold. Just when you think you got it right, something changes. I was REALLY getting frustrated.
I then bought a Beeman AR2078-B for a "serious" 10M gun, or as much a one as I wanted to spend on one at $225 (!)
That CO2 gun was providing me with the accuracy I was searching for. I was amazed I could not only hit the 10 ring, but choose where in the 10 ring I was going to hit! I WAS HOOKED!
Trouble is, I live in Indiana where the weather for shooting CO2 outside won't happen for about 4 or 5 months every year. I do shoot in the house during the winter but for safety reasons I only do it when home alone.
With you living in Dallas TX area, I think that would be an option for you in your back yard.
Then I wondered about FTT, sounds fun. But the AR2078-B looses it's energy past 25 yards or so. Eventually I saved enough to buy a rebuilt FWB300S ($500) and again EXCELLENT accuracy and from a Springer no less! I have mounted a Mil-Dot C/P 9X scope on it and have now stretched out to 50 yards.
Once I got this extended range dialed in, to me, the energy it has is marginal at those distances is still questionable.
NOW I find myself with a PCP and a hand pump. GAME CHANGER!!!! There is no doubt in my mind I could knock down a target at 50 yards, even further if needed.
My point to all this babbling is this... If I had saved all the money I spent along the way to get here, I could have bought a NEW Anschutz.
I suggest you getting that CMP Daisy single pump pneumatic for back yard use because of convenience, to hone your skills, and "scratch the itch" for now. Then start saving a little at a time for a PCP, think $500-700 or such, and a hand pump. Maybe a used Higher grade gun and Then a SCBA tank if you have a place to fill it.
I know it seems like a lot of investment but it really would have been cheaper in the long run for me.
You will come out money ahead in the long run.
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Adam,
Hopefully you now realize why some many air gunners have so many rifles. ;D ;D ;D
-Y
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This has been an excellent read for early Saturday morning guys, a huge wealth of knowledge we have gathered here.
I however don't share that quality. ;)
I am just a airgunner who dabbles in punching holes in paper, striving to make it all in one hole. But varying in distance.
So to Adam I am going to say... I know how money can be a limiting factor. I, like most, started out as a kid with a Pump gun then went to Powder Burners.. 40 years later I find myself back into airguns restarting with a spring powered gun. I bought a couple entry level ones and drooled over a Beeman R11 / Weihrauch HW98 (still do). As said, springers can be a devil to master the hold. Just when you think you got it right, something changes. I was REALLY getting frustrated.
I then bought a Beeman AR2078-B for a "serious" 10M gun, or as much a one as I wanted to spend on one at $225 (!)
That CO2 gun was providing me with the accuracy I was searching for. I was amazed I could not only hit the 10 ring, but choose where in the 10 ring I was going to hit! I WAS HOOKED!
Trouble is, I live in Indiana where the weather for shooting CO2 outside won't happen for about 4 or 5 months every year. I do shoot in the house during the winter but for safety reasons I only do it when home alone.
With you living in Dallas TX area, I think that would be an option for you in your back yard.
Then I wondered about FTT, sounds fun. But the AR2078-B looses it's energy past 25 yards or so. Eventually I saved enough to buy a rebuilt FWB300S ($500) and again EXCELLENT accuracy and from a Springer no less! I have mounted a Mil-Dot C/P 9X scope on it and have now stretched out to 50 yards.
Once I got this extended range dialed in, to me, the energy it has is marginal at those distances is still questionable.
NOW I find myself with a PCP and a hand pump. GAME CHANGER!!!! There is no doubt in my mind I could knock down a target at 50 yards, even further if needed.
My point to all this babbling is this... If I had saved all the money I spent along the way to get here, I could have bought a NEW Anschutz.
I suggest you getting that CMP Daisy single pump pneumatic for back yard use because of convenience, to hone your skills, and "scratch the itch" for now. Then start saving a little at a time for a PCP, think $500-700 or such, and a hand pump. Maybe a used Higher grade gun and Then a SCBA tank if you have a place to fill it.
I know it seems like a lot of investment but it really would have been cheaper in the long run for me.
You will come out money ahead in the long run.
I'm glad at least one person other than me has found it an interesting read :D Currently I'm only dabbling in punching small circles into paper as well. I do about a quarter size group of 10 at 10m with my Crosman 66 Powermaster that was extremely poorly taken care of over the past 25 years or so. Not great accuracy ;D Granted, I was also shooting left handed on a rather poor copy of a Field Target sitting position. Still enjoyable though. I do really hate pumping it 10x between shots. It's also very noisy to pump.
I appreciate the back story. It's a good lesson learned, and I enjoy reading about other people's experiences. I'm sure you still enjoy or have enjoyed all those various air rifles though, so it's probably still money well spent, even if the combined cost could've put you into a world class competition rifle.
So I'm not particularly interested in CO2 rifles for one main reason, I have to keep spending money to supply the pneumatic power. It really comes down to that. PCP is a different story. I'd be much more inclined to invest into that. I do however want to hone my skills up before I put out that money. Essentially I'd like a self contained power plant that has everything it needs to fire the gun in the gun, for the moment. Single stroke, or springer. Break barrel, side lever or under lever are all fine. Iron sights are preferable, especially a front globe post. I don't mind blade sights on rifles, since that is what I'm used to from traditional firearms for the most part. I am leaning more on a springer, gas piston or spring coil piston, because it requires some extra work to proper use and I can't see how it wouldn't be helpful to be able to master artillery hold. I do think at this point I do need to just get a backyard rifle though, and then spring for another rifle for use in FT. It doesn't seem that there's anyway to really have both. I think my third or fourth rifle will be a PCP though. I'll probably try to get a used SCBA tank for it, a hand pump, and have it filled at the local fire station more often than not, if they deem it okay to fill.
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Sounds like a great plan Adam!
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I pm'ed you, Adam. Cliff, above, has agreed to lend his TX200 (or 97) and another DFW field target guy and forum member Cloud 9, has agreed to let you shoot a 97.
Cliff has a slightly "different" scope situation than most in that he uses an adjustable objective instead of side focus. And his 97 is set up for WFTF, which is probably not the best place to start.
I would probably recommend that you shoot "fun rifle," which is a bit more casual as to scoring since you won't have the gun set up for you.
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I pm'ed you, Adam. Cliff, above, has agreed to lend his TX200 (or 97) and another DFW field target guy and forum member Cloud 9, has agreed to let you shoot a 97.
Cliff has a slightly "different" scope situation than most in that he uses an adjustable objective instead of side focus. And his 97 is set up for WFTF, which is probably not the best place to start.
I would probably recommend that you shoot "fun rifle," which is a bit more casual as to scoring since you won't have the gun set up for you.
Sounds fantastic Mark! Looking forward to it. Probably best to take your advice and go with the "fun rifle" shoot. Definitely looking forward to it
Dirty
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[ I do think at this point I do need to just get a backyard rifle though, and then spring for another rifle for use in FT. It doesn't seem that there's anyway to really have both. I think my third or fourth rifle will be a PCP though. I'll probably try to get a used SCBA tank for it, a hand pump, and have it filled at the local fire station more often than not, if they deem it okay to fill.
Adam
At this point in time, I would be inclined to tell you that, even if you DID get exactly what you think you want, curiosity would overtake you in short time and you would be buying other guns just to check that you were where you wanted from the start.
;-)
It's just human nature and it's alright, in the end the destination is not as important as the trip itself.
Good luck and keep in posted!
HM
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[ I do think at this point I do need to just get a backyard rifle though, and then spring for another rifle for use in FT. It doesn't seem that there's anyway to really have both. I think my third or fourth rifle will be a PCP though. I'll probably try to get a used SCBA tank for it, a hand pump, and have it filled at the local fire station more often than not, if they deem it okay to fill.
Adam
At this point in time, I would be inclined to tell you that, even if you DID get exactly what you think you want, curiosity would overtake you in short time and you would be buying other guns just to check that you were where you wanted from the start.
;-)
It's just human nature and it's alright, in the end the destination is not as important as the trip itself.
Good luck and keep in posted!
HM
Hah, I'm sure you're right. I'll probably end up with quite a few in the end
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It's been a bit since I posted last on this, but I decided to get the HW30S for a backyard shooter, and the HW97K for my Field Target or competition shooting spring rifle. Both of them arrived today, but I haven't unpacked them yet. They both look like they made it through shipping in good shape though. I also got a Hawke Airmax SF 30 4-16x50 AMX IR scope with BKL 301 scope rings. Hopefully I'll be happy with the scope purchase. I admit I got it without knowing probably enough about Hawke scopes or scopes in general. I like how the reticle looks, and it seems to be made specifically for air rifles. We shall see I suppose. Hopefully no big buyers remorse there. I also got the sharp shooter pellet sampler to test in both rifles.
I do have one question. Is there any design defects I should be aware of in their current models that need to be corrected before I start shooting these rifles? I'd hate to cause any unneeded damage to them after only just getting them, especially if there's simple fixes for these errors in design.
Thanks for all you guys' input
Adam
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Some HW 30's have a galling issue with the cocking slot, some are twangy. All springer benefit from a barrel cleaning, some have too much factory grease and a good cleaning is in order. If you are very handy, a trigger polishing make the Record trigger superb! Search the web or GTA and there are tons of instructions on how to do all this. Happy shooting...
-Y
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When I first started my research and proper air gunning education, I really was leaning toward the R7, due to the lower price point, still excellent quality. As I understand the HW30 is very similar to the R7 as well. I'm a bit concerned about the size of the rifle. I'm 6'4", 220 lbs and have a 30" reach. Having never held one, I wasn't sure if it would be comfortable with my frame.
Adam
Im 6'4" also, w/ 36-37" sleeve, and depending on how many Pie Eating contests I've recently won, hover around 275. ;D I also have a couple of HW30's and just recently started exploring the idea of adding some length to the LOP. While waiting for an adjustable butt pad I have on order, I threw a Pachmayr mediun slip on recoil pad on one of the 30's and notice an immediate improvement in consistency. Its simply more comfortable. Which makes it much easier to consistently "get on the gun" in the same position, again and again.
I'll concede a slip on butt pad is not the most elegant solution but, well worth the $15-20. IMO ;D
HTH
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It's been a bit since I posted last on this, but I decided to get the HW30S for a backyard shooter, and the HW97K for my Field Target or competition shooting spring rifle. Both of them arrived today, but I haven't unpacked them yet. They both look like they made it through shipping in good shape though. I also got a Hawke Airmax SF 30 4-16x50 AMX IR scope with BKL 301 scope rings. Hopefully I'll be happy with the scope purchase. I admit I got it without knowing probably enough about Hawke scopes or scopes in general. I like how the reticle looks, and it seems to be made specifically for air rifles. We shall see I suppose. Hopefully no big buyers remorse there. I also got the sharp shooter pellet sampler to test in both rifles.
I do have one question. Is there any design defects I should be aware of in their current models that need to be corrected before I start shooting these rifles? I'd hate to cause any unneeded damage to them after only just getting them, especially if there's simple fixes for these errors in design.
Thanks for all you guys' input
Adam
You jumped in with both feet! LOL Clean the bores with go gone or some other solvent just don't let any get in the compression chamber. Then just start shooting, they may diesel and twang a little at first, but they should settle in after awhile. Check the action screws periodically, they will loosen several times while the rifles are getting broken in. When you mount the scope on the 97, degrease the slots and mount with brake cleaner. Use locktite on the mounting bolts and the scope stop pin threads. The blueing will rust very quickly if you don't wipe the rifles down with oil after handling.
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Some HW 30's have a galling issue with the cocking slot, some are twangy. All springer benefit from a barrel cleaning, some have too much factory grease and a good cleaning is in order. If you are very handy, a trigger polishing make the Record trigger superb! Search the web or GTA and there are tons of instructions on how to do all this. Happy shooting...
-Y
Good to know. I did plan on the barrel cleaning before shooting either of these. I purchased some cleaning supplies, so that I can get all the factory gunk out of the barrel before shooting it. I'll probably hold off on messing with the grease and trigger for a bit, but that's a hesitation because I've not disassembled an air rifle before.
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When I first started my research and proper air gunning education, I really was leaning toward the R7, due to the lower price point, still excellent quality. As I understand the HW30 is very similar to the R7 as well. I'm a bit concerned about the size of the rifle. I'm 6'4", 220 lbs and have a 30" reach. Having never held one, I wasn't sure if it would be comfortable with my frame.
Adam
Im 6'4" also, w/ 36-37" sleeve, and depending on how many Pie Eating contests I've recently won, hover around 275. ;D I also have a couple of HW30's and just recently started exploring the idea of adding some length to the LOP. While waiting for an adjustable butt pad I have on order, I threw a Pachmayr mediun slip on recoil pad on one of the 30's and notice an immediate improvement in consistency. Its simply more comfortable. Which makes it much easier to consistently "get on the gun" in the same position, again and again.
I'll concede a slip on butt pad is not the most elegant solution but, well worth the $15-20. IMO ;D
HTH
Hah, thanks for the idea. I may consider it, if I find it difficult to shoot as is. I've shouldered it a few times to look at the various front sights, and so far it doesn't seem too bad. It's quite a bit heavier and larger than I expected. I've shouldered a few youth rifles and felt like I was holding a miniature toy.
You jumped in with both feet! LOL Clean the bores with go gone or some other solvent just don't let any get in the compression chamber. Then just start shooting, they may diesel and twang a little at first, but they should settle in after awhile. Check the action screws periodically, they will loosen several times while the rifles are getting broken in. When you mount the scope on the 97, degrease the slots and mount with brake cleaner. Use locktite on the mounting bolts and the scope stop pin threads. The blueing will rust very quickly if you don't wipe the rifles down with oil after handling.
I sure did. I couldn't see a way to get my cake and eat it too, unless I ended up with at least two rifles, so here I am. I have some Napier Airgun Oil to clean the barrels. I figured that should take care of them pretty well. As far as the rails, do you think Isopropyl Alcohol would do the trick? I have quite a bit of that. Also simple green. I also have a bunch of micro fiber clothes. Like a lot a lot. So one of those with some ballistol or something should take care of keeping the rust away, I think.
Adam
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Just be aware that some users have reported that Ballistol can get under the newer HW finishes and create small cosmetic defects.
As a precaution, I would keep Ballistol away from the stock.
HTH
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Just be aware that some users have reported that Ballistol can get under the newer HW finishes and create small cosmetic defects.
As a precaution, I would keep Ballistol away from the stock.
HTH
Definitely a good thing to know. Any problems with Napier gun oil and the wood stocks?
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Just be aware that some users have reported that Ballistol can get under the newer HW finishes and create small cosmetic defects.
As a precaution, I would keep Ballistol away from the stock.
HTH
Definitely a good thing to know. Any problems with Napier gun oil and the wood stocks?
Not that I know of, but in general metal oils should be kept away from wooden parts. If you ABSOLUTELY have to massage your wooden stock, then I would suggest a silicone or carnauba furniture grade wax.
Carnauba wax can also be used for shining the metal parts and it actually does a better job of protecting against rust than most oils.
HTH
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Just be aware that some users have reported that Ballistol can get under the newer HW finishes and create small cosmetic defects.
As a precaution, I would keep Ballistol away from the stock.
HTH
Definitely a good thing to know. Any problems with Napier gun oil and the wood stocks?
Not that I know of, but in general metal oils should be kept away from wooden parts. If you ABSOLUTELY have to massage your wooden stock, then I would suggest a silicone or carnauba furniture grade wax.
Carnauba wax can also be used for shining the metal parts and it actually does a better job of protecting against rust than most oils.
HTH
Thanks Hector, good advice. I'll make sure I follow it.
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Just be aware that some users have reported that Ballistol can get under the newer HW finishes and create small cosmetic defects.
As a precaution, I would keep Ballistol away from the stock.
HTH
Definitely a good thing to know. Any problems with Napier gun oil and the wood stocks?
Not that I know of, but in general metal oils should be kept away from wooden parts. If you ABSOLUTELY have to massage your wooden stock, then I would suggest a silicone or carnauba furniture grade wax.
Carnauba wax can also be used for shining the metal parts and it actually does a better job of protecting against rust than most oils.
HTH
Nah. Use Ballistol. I’ve used it for decades on all kinds of metal AND wood with great results. Good stuff.
M.