GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: SpiralGroove on July 03, 2017, 11:33:23 PM
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Hey guys,
Going to install a .22 Caliber barrel on my HW30S and am wondering what velocities to expect?
Right now, in .177 caliber, I'm getting around 625 fps. Seems like I'll be around 450 fps :-\.
Please tell me what you're getting ;D.
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Hey guys,
Going to install a .22 Caliber barrel on my HW30S and am wondering what velocities to expect?
Right now, in .177 caliber, I'm getting around 625 fps. Seems like I'll be around 450 fps :-\.
Please tell me what you're getting ;D.
My HW30S was getting around 480 FPS with FTT 14.66 and around 500 with JSB 13.43. I dont think these numbers are unusual.
FWIW, after installing the Vortech kit, this gun is shooting most pellets in the 500-550 range. I'm just giving you numbers and I'm not saying you should buy a Vortech for your gun.
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My HW30S was getting around 480 FPS with FTT 14.66 and around 500 with JSB 13.43. I dont think these numbers are unusual.
FWIW, after installing the Vortech kit, this gun is shooting most pellets in the 500-550 range. I'm just giving you numbers and I'm not saying you should buy a Vortech for your gun.
Thanks Wj,
I just put a .22 caliber barrel on my HW50S and it went down from 815 to 615 fps. It shoots much like my current HW30S's do in .177 caliber, absolutely no recoil and very accurate. In .177, it was a wee bit jumpy, but not with the .22 pellet.
Just wondering how a 475 to 500 fps .22 caliber pellet shoots at 30 yards?
I've got an 6 mo. old HW30S Votech kit, but it (previously) didn't increase my velocity in .177, maybe it will be more effective in .22 caliber?
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Hey Guys,
Another quick post. Got my HW30S, HW50S & HW35E converted to .22 caliber. All guns very accurate after a good barrel scrub.
One note:
- The shot cycles of the HW30S & HW50S are smoother in .22 caliber (CPUM) vs. .177 caliber, while the HW35E shoots harsher -> constipated. Maybe it's shorter stroke just doesn't handle the heavier pellet as well :-\. I was getting about 840 fps with AA 7.87. Not sure what I'm getting yet out of the HW30S or HW35E as my crony is acting up again ::) :P.
Maybe I'll try some lighter wad cutters tomorrow, but in my experience most HW's like JSB, H&N and CPL (CPUM).
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My HW30S was getting around 480 FPS with FTT 14.66 and around 500 with JSB 13.43. I dont think these numbers are unusual.
FWIW, after installing the Vortech kit, this gun is shooting most pellets in the 500-550 range. I'm just giving you numbers and I'm not saying you should buy a Vortech for your gun.
Thanks Wj,
I just put a .22 caliber barrel on my HW50S and it went down from 815 to 615 fps. It shoots much like my current HW30S's do in .177 caliber, absolutely no recoil and very accurate. In .177, it was a wee bit jumpy, but not with the .22 pellet.
Just wondering how a 475 to 500 fps .22 caliber pellet shoots at 30 yards?
I've got an 6 mo. old HW30S Votech kit, but it (previously) didn't increase my velocity in .177, maybe it will be more effective in .22 caliber?
My .22 is sighted in at 20 yards; at 30 yards it needs about 2" of holdover. I'm okay with that. If I needed to hit something any farther out, I'd use a different gun. I don't get too wrapped up in the FPS of guns, especially in a moderate-power gun like the 30... Having said all that, I just went back to check my notes: I forgot that mine shot the H&N 12.6 hollow points in the 550 FPS range--that's smokin' if you ask me. They were pretty accurate, too. If you're looking for velocity, try those and maybe the RWS Hobbies. I don't have any FPSS figures on them, but they're about the lightest .22 pellets out there and my gun shoots them very well.
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Kirk:
Are the velocities on the hw35e in .177 caliber on a stock gun or with a tune up?
From the data i have been reading most .177 cal hw35 are shooting the 7.9 gr pellets around the 750~760 fps range.
Thank you
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If you're looking for velocity, try those and maybe the RWS Hobbies.
Not trying to get max. velocity, but just to understand my options. My HW30S shot pretty well out to 60 yards in .177 last year, sounds like that won't happen in .22 caliber :-\ :P.
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Kirk:
Are the velocities on the hw35e in .177 caliber on a stock gun or with a tune up?
From the data i have been reading most .177 cal hw35 are shooting the 7.9 gr pellets around the 750~760 fps range.
Thank you
Tuned by me using the AGH HW35 spring + top-hat. A wee bit jumpy.
My HW35ES tuned by me gets around 810 fps, with factory spring and 1/4" top-hat ...... very sweet shot cycle.
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I get 480 fps with JSB 14.3 gr. and 529 fps with RWS hobbies (11.9 gr.).
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My HW30S was getting around 480 FPS with FTT 14.66 and around 500 with JSB 13.43. I dont think these numbers are unusual.
FWIW, after installing the Vortech kit, this gun is shooting most pellets in the 500-550 range. I'm just giving you numbers and I'm not saying you should buy a Vortech for your gun.
Thanks Wj,
I just put a .22 caliber barrel on my HW50S and it went down from 815 to 615 fps. It shoots much like my current HW30S's do in .177 caliber, absolutely no recoil and very accurate. In .177, it was a wee bit jumpy, but not with the .22 pellet.
Just wondering how a 475 to 500 fps .22 caliber pellet shoots at 30 yards?
I've got an 6 mo. old HW30S Votech kit, but it (previously) didn't increase my velocity in .177, maybe it will be more effective in .22 caliber?
This is where I think I'd like to start my German airgun collection. And possibly end it.
That HW50s in .22 sounds just right for me.
Maybe add a spring kit to get up to 13 fpe.
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This is where I think I'd like to start my German airgun collection. And possibly end it.
That HW50s in .22 sounds just right for me.
Maybe add a spring kit to get up to 13 fpe.
Yup, for me the HW35, HW50 and HW95 is the Weihrauch sweet spot :D.
Light, accurate with enough power.
The HW50S shoots at about 750/775 fps in .177 caliber. Since I have tuned most of my guns, I maxed out the .177 at about 815/840 fps. At that point it was a little jumpy, but not at its original 750/775 fps. I don't think the HW50S in .22 caliber will be as smooth at 13 FPE ...... that is HW95 territory.
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I get 480 fps with JSB 14.3 gr. and 529 fps with RWS hobbies (11.9 gr.).
Yeah, finally tested my HW30S in .22 caliber -> 14.66 grain H&N FTT 475 FPS.
I may add my HW30S Vortek kit to see if I can get 500/550 FPS, but don't want introduce a harsh shot cycle ..... we'll see.
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My HW30 with vortek kit is getting 513 avg velocity using HN FTT 14.66 5.53mm pellets. Smooth shot cycle as well.
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My HW30 with vortek kit is getting 513 avg velocity using HN FTT 14.66 5.53mm pellets. Smooth shot cycle as well.
Calvin
What piston seal are you using?
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I believe it's the moly piston seal the came with the vortek kit.
I didn't do any extraordinary tuning. Just cleaned and lightly lubed
the compression tube, piston and lightly lubed the vortek spring. I replaced the breech seal with one from ARH.
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I believe it's the moly piston seal the came with the vortek kit.
I didn't do any extraordinary tuning. Just cleaned and lightly lubed
the compression tube, piston and lightly lubed the vortek spring. I replaced the breech seal with one from ARH.
Yep, thanks. I installed those also, the VAC seal, in both of mine (.177) and saw a 20 fps increase over the factory seal.
Was just curious, thinking about getting a .22 barrel and trying to get a rough idea on what to expect.
Thanks again.
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Hey Kirk, give the .22 GTO Ammo a try. My HW77K and TX200HC love this ammo. These are the only
.22 springers I own. The rest are .20 and .177 I've had GREAT ACCUARCY with this ammo and flat trajectory.
Best of luck Brother Man
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My HW30S was getting around 480 FPS with FTT 14.66 and around 500 with JSB 13.43. I dont think these numbers are unusual.
FWIW, after installing the Vortech kit, this gun is shooting most pellets in the 500-550 range. I'm just giving you numbers and I'm not saying you should buy a Vortech for your gun.
Thanks Wj,
I just put a .22 caliber barrel on my HW50S and it went down from 815 to 615 fps. It shoots much like my current HW30S's do in .177 caliber, absolutely no recoil and very accurate. In .177, it was a wee bit jumpy, but not with the .22 pellet.
Just wondering how a 475 to 500 fps .22 caliber pellet shoots at 30 yards?
I've got an 6 mo. old HW30S Votech kit, but it (previously) didn't increase my velocity in .177, maybe it will be more effective in .22 caliber?
At 43 yards I can say from a 1973 S&W 76 G CO2 pistol (12 gr powerlets) the .22 SW Pellet (in those days shaped like a round headed straight walled wadcutter with hardly a waist) it will kill a starling with the pellet. It was an accurate pistol.
In rifles I've used the Benjamin .22 at MV approaching 600 fps not limiting power but limiting accuracy out of that brass barrel.
In HW35E .22 chrono showed SD 1, High V 575, Low V 572, Ave 574; I shoot this at 35 yards with ease on 1.5" targets that react.
I am getting an HW30 in .22 on Monday, I think it'll be lower than my HW35E but not by enough to fail its purpose for me. I think the 490-500 fps is about right as what was said earlier.
There is a straightshooterschart on the HW30 in .22 (along with the HW50) here:
https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtakehw30s.html (https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtakehw30s.html)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W9R30mpVXs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W9R30mpVXs)
Shoot! I should have put this up for all interested in the HW30S. Clear to the end points on off hand shooting v rested shooting changing point of impact.
Also, look how ACCURATE this thing is at 30 yards!
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Where do you guys get barrels from ? Might be kind of cool to try a .20 on my R7.
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Hey Kirk, give the .22 GTO Ammo a try. My HW77K and TX200HC love this ammo. These are the only
.22 springers I own. The rest are .20 and .177 I've had GREAT ACCUARCY with this ammo and flat trajectory.
Best of luck Brother Man
The H&N Baracuda Greens are just as good, they blow most lead ammo out of the water. I’ve had great results from them in my .22 97k and 95. Pricey though... Baracuda Light in lead are also prettty good.
-Marty
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I don't get the point of light 22 pellets. Unless you're plinking or paper shooting. If you're trying to get the velocity higher by reducing the weight near to a 177, just shoot the 177 :P
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I don't get the point of light 22 pellets. Unless you're plinking or paper shooting. If you're trying to get the velocity higher by reducing the weight near to a 177, just shoot the 177 :P
I used to subscribe to the same philosophy, but I’ve found that .22 have nicer shot cycle characteristics in certain guns, the pellets are easier to handle and to see from far away. It’s not always about the BC, there are some qualitative characteristics that are important for some shooters.
-Marty
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I don't get the point of light 22 pellets. Unless you're plinking or paper shooting. If you're trying to get the velocity higher by reducing the weight near to a 177, just shoot the 177 :P
I used to subscribe to the same philosophy, but I’ve found that .22 have nicer shot cycle characteristics in certain guns, the pellets are easier to handle and to see from far away. It’s not always about the BC, there are some qualitative characteristics that are important for some shooters.
-Marty
I think a word for the .22 is "loyal" while the word for the .177 "accurate."
But when wind comes (any kind of wind) and distance the .22 is more loyal.
I've never been able to diss a .22. I have gotten angry at the .177 for the above reasons along with the fact they are so small it's hard to handle them.
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I don't get the point of light 22 pellets. Unless you're plinking or paper shooting. If you're trying to get the velocity higher by reducing the weight near to a 177, just shoot the 177 :P
I used to subscribe to the same philosophy, but I’ve found that .22 have nicer shot cycle characteristics in certain guns, the pellets are easier to handle and to see from far away. It’s not always about the BC, there are some qualitative characteristics that are important for some shooters.
-Marty
I think a word for the .22 is "loyal" while the word for the .177 "accurate."
But when wind comes (any kind of wind) and distance the .22 is more loyal.
I've never been able to diss a .22. I have gotten angry at the .177 for the above reasons along with the fact they are so small it's hard to handle them.
Yeah I get that my point was more that using light weight 22 pellets negates any advantage the 22 has over the 177 except ease of handling and now realizing bigger holes to see. I'm not bashing it, just questioning the logic. Btw wind drift is not directly associated with weight. For the same power plant a heavier projectile can have more wind drift than a lighter one. The heavier projectile takes longer to get there and has more time for the wind to push on them. For instance most people think a 40gr 22mag has less wind drift than a 17 grain 17hmr. They both have the same parent cartridge and the tiny 17hmr that's supposed to be so willy nilly to the wind ACTUALLY has LESS wind drift (and drop) solely because it gets there much quicker. BC issues are complex and not the be all and end all. It's like vanilla and chocolate. Like what you like, but don't bleach your chocolate trying to make taste more like vanilla. It'll ruin your chocolate. Maybe just order vanilla once in while.
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I don't know anything about ballistics, but it seems to me a .177 travelling at 700fps would drift less than a .22 of the same weight and shape travelling at 600fps, or even the same fps because the .177 has smaller profile.
I know I'd rather drive a mini cooper in a high wind area rather than a motorhome.
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That's not a fair comparison! were only talking a .5mm vs thousands of LBS! and yes the .22cal pellets due buck the wind better then a light .177cal pellet! :o
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That's not a fair comparison! were only talking a .5mm vs thousands of LBS! and yes the .22cal pellets due buck the wind better then a light .177cal pellet! :o
You didn't read what I wrote correctly and or totally missed the point. I was talking about using light (as in alloy) 22 pellets. And they might not buck the wind any better than 177 with same power plant. Oh and the difference between 22 and 177 is a whole mm lol. Listen I'm not looking to stoke a debate. I already said to enjoy what you like. I was only questioning the logic of reducing the benefits of a 22 to emulate the speed of a 177. Different strokes for different folks, but there's no need to propagate inaccurate ballistics as I exampled earlier. Bottom line a Lightweight 22 is not going to do any better in the wind than a 177 that's going faster out of the same gun.
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I don't know anything about ballistics, but it seems to me a .177 travelling at 700fps would drift less than a .22 of the same weight and shape travelling at 600fps, or even the same fps because the .177 has smaller profile
I know I'd rather drive a mini cooper in a high wind area rather than a motorhome.
A guy at the range that I shoot at says that he saw an article that PROVED that slower moving pellets are LESS effected by wind than faster moving pellets.
On other airgun topics he knows what he is talking about! 8)
FWIW-When the wind is blowing at more than 10 mph at the range, the 20-25fpe PCP guys are cursing out loud. Meanwhile, I am only muttering under my breath. I shoot a 12fpe springer. ;) ;D
-Y
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I don't know anything about ballistics, but it seems to me a .177 travelling at 700fps would drift less than a .22 of the same weight and shape travelling at 600fps, or even the same fps because the .177 has smaller profile
I know I'd rather drive a mini cooper in a high wind area rather than a motorhome.
A guy at the range that I shoot at says that he saw an article that PROVED that slower moving pellets are LESS effected by wind than faster moving pellets.
On other airgun topics he knows what he is talking about! 8)
FWIW-When the wind is blowing at more than 10 mph at the range, the 20-25fpe PCP guys are cursing out loud. Meanwhile, I am only muttering under my breath. I shoot a 12fpe springer. ;) ;D
-Y
Sorry Yogi. It's only because you're a better shooter than they are. They're just making excuses for poor shooting. Truth is truth. There's set proven formulas that no matter how much you argue, they remain true. Heavier projectiles generally have a better BC (less wind drift and drop) because of momentum. But the time to target is just as important. All things equal (initial energy) a 10 grain 177 pellet will have a better BC than a 10 grain alloy 22 pellet because of a smaller frontal area and greater sectional density. We can believe whatever we want but physics are not flexible.
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Where do you guys get barrels from ? Might be kind of cool to try a .20 on my R7.
Hey Mac,
The extra barrels I had purchased were from a company in Canada that was either clearing out all the Weihrauch barrel inventory or was going out of business - can't remember.
You can buy many barrels from PA or Chambers, but the .20 caliber is not offered for many guns and of course is normally more.
In 2016, when I bought all my Weihrauch guns from Krale, it had a pretty good relationship with the owner. Maybe Krale could special order them if asked?
AOA gets .20 caliber HW's in most guns, hence Krale should be able to order the barrels. I would send an email to find out :D.
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Where do you guys get barrels from ? Might be kind of cool to try a .20 on my R7.
I think a 20 cal R7 would be very cool. Especially with a Vortek kit in it. It would give a great little gun a little extra oomf with better trajectory than a 22. Best of both worlds.
The only downside I see is you have a limited choice of expensive pellets. If it was my only one and I shot one as often as shoot mine in 177cal, I'd need to get another job :D It would be a great addition to the ones I already have. Hmmmm?
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OOP's sorry Ron if I misunderstood, but I also think an 11gn .22cal would still be a better choice then using a 10.5gn .177cal pellet moving that same velocity ;D
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Thank you Kirk. I check with Krale just to see but Bayman makes a good point because I do shoot it quite a bit.
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Thank you Kirk. I check with Krale just to see but Bayman makes a good point because I do shoot it quite a bit.
I've been desperately trying to email Dennis at Krale for a week and I keep getting getting a mail not delivered notification. Something about them over their quota?? Please let me know if you get through to them. I tried calling them but I'm having issues with the international calling codes.
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OOP's sorry Ron if I misunderstood, but I also think an 11gn .22cal would still be a better choice then using a 10.5gn .177cal pellet moving that same velocity ;D
Certainly would be easier to handle and see. ;)
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Thank you Kirk. I check with Krale just to see but Bayman makes a good point because I do shoot it quite a bit.
Yeah, for plinking out to 30 yards, you cant beat the .177 :D.
What I've found is that with more powerful power plants, the .20 caliber can deliver excellent accuracy at much longer ranges vs. .177 cal. - when you realize what you can have, an additional $5 on pellets is just fine ;). My Longer range shooting suggests a .20 caliber revival is in order 8).
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I don't know anything about ballistics, but it seems to me a .177 travelling at 700fps would drift less than a .22 of the same weight and shape travelling at 600fps, or even the same fps because the .177 has smaller profile
I know I'd rather drive a mini cooper in a high wind area rather than a motorhome.
A guy at the range that I shoot at says that he saw an article that PROVED that slower moving pellets are LESS effected by wind than faster moving pellets.
On other airgun topics he knows what he is talking about! 8)
FWIW-When the wind is blowing at more than 10 mph at the range, the 20-25fpe PCP guys are cursing out loud. Meanwhile, I am only muttering under my breath. I shoot a 12fpe springer. ;) ;D
-Y
Sorry Yogi. It's only because you're a better shooter than they are. They're just making excuses for poor shooting. Truth is truth. There's set proven formulas that no matter how much you argue, they remain true. Heavier projectiles generally have a better BC (less wind drift and drop) because of momentum. But the time to target is just as important. All things equal (initial energy) a 10 grain 177 pellet will have a better BC than a 10 grain alloy 22 pellet because of a smaller frontal area and greater sectional density. We can believe whatever we want but physics are not flexible.
Well Ron,
I expect that I am shooting at 50 yards and they are shooting at 75-100 yards has something to do with it. ;D ;)
As I understand BC it is only a function of retained momentum at various distances. Anyway, I will ask the fellow for the link and post it here. The wind drift calculation is only sort of correlated.
-Y
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Thank you Kirk. I check with Krale just to see but Bayman makes a good point because I do shoot it quite a bit.
Yeah, for plinking out to 30 yards, you cant beat the .177 :D.
What I've found is that with more powerful power plants, the .20 caliber can deliver excellent accuracy at much longer ranges vs. .177 cal. - when you realize what you can have, an additional $5 on pellets is just fine ;). My Longer range shooting suggests a .20 caliber revival is in order 8).
I agree. I like the idea of 20 caliber for mid to high power springers. I'm excited to finally get my 20 cal RX1 in order. I was shooting spinners with that and my 177 Hw50 at 108 yards. Both barely move the spinners but there's a big audible difference in the hit.
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I don't know anything about ballistics, but it seems to me a .177 travelling at 700fps would drift less than a .22 of the same weight and shape travelling at 600fps, or even the same fps because the .177 has smaller profile
I know I'd rather drive a mini cooper in a high wind area rather than a motorhome.
A guy at the range that I shoot at says that he saw an article that PROVED that slower moving pellets are LESS effected by wind than faster moving pellets.
On other airgun topics he knows what he is talking about! 8)
FWIW-When the wind is blowing at more than 10 mph at the range, the 20-25fpe PCP guys are cursing out loud. Meanwhile, I am only muttering under my breath. I shoot a 12fpe springer. ;) ;D
-Y
Sorry Yogi. It's only because you're a better shooter than they are. They're just making excuses for poor shooting. Truth is truth. There's set proven formulas that no matter how much you argue, they remain true. Heavier projectiles generally have a better BC (less wind drift and drop) because of momentum. But the time to target is just as important. All things equal (initial energy) a 10 grain 177 pellet will have a better BC than a 10 grain alloy 22 pellet because of a smaller frontal area and greater sectional density. We can believe whatever we want but physics are not flexible.
Well Ron,
I expect that I am shooting at 50 yards and they are shooting at 75-100 yards has something to do with it. ;D ;)
As I understand BC it is only a function of retained momentum at various distances. Anyway, I will ask the fellow for the link and post it here. The wind drift calculation is only sort of correlated.
-Y
Yeah Yogi I thought you were talking over the same distance. You're talking about apples and oranges now. That said, even at their much higher muzzle velocity their stuff is likely in the air twice as long as yours because of the greater distance and the normal rapid deceleration of pellets. Their velocity at target may not be different than yours.
I look forward to seeing that link you're talking about.
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The wind argument is blasphemy! Top .177 domes squash .22 pellets in the wind, at this power level.
And especially when you consider the lightweight .22's used to flatten the trajectory. Some crosman premiers or especially some 10 grain jsb domes crush them in the wind!
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The advertised for the HW30 .22 is 130m/s or 429f.p.s., and that would be "stock".
I just ran 50 JSB Exacts .22 through my HW50S and gave away my other two HW50s in .177, the supposedly "popular" caliber everyone comes to the aid of like a princess of sorts.
I would have been very unhappy to mistakenly send off the .22 HW50 because this morning it was absolute JOY and LOYALTY to thunderstorms and rain while I shot out the dining room door for 30 yards.
I took out my Silver HW35E .177 w/scope and shot the last pellets before getting to this site and that gun is still out for more shooting of HEAVY .177 10.5gr CPDs--which work FANTASTIC in that 35E.
I took out the loyal royal Blue 35E .22 before the .177 to shoot just to see if it was still shooting true. Last night I finished with the HW97K .20 and that was very pleasant and powerful.
I believe if you want to have real fun you just buy a collection of rifles in all calibers and see for yourself. About velocity numbers I don't really care since the target at 30 yards is getting smashed with decent aim. Can these guns (low powered) be used for long range?
well, the .45-70 was once such a low velocity cartridge but after the hype of .270s and 7mm Magnums you'll find shooters of the .45-70 saying they can hit things beyond 800 yards with more precision than a light .25-06 or whippy small bullet!
I go with .22 being the best caliber for satisfaction!
The .20 is for us elitists who know a thing or two.
The .177 is for beginning target practice. ::)
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I have to bow out, it's getting deep here.
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I just hope there are no new guys reading this thread and taking it to heart.
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laid over, flatter trajectory I will agree with, bucking the wind is a whole other story! I had this same discussion for yrs on this forum, we all know the .177cal is going to shoot flatter! u may have to dope the heavier pellet of the .22cal as far as drop! but as far as wind drift not as much! were not talking about powder burners here, where a 6.5 140gn vs a 308win 175gn or a 155gn Palma bullet, were talkin air gun pellets! I have shot a lot in the wind with lower powered air guns 12lbs and under, I can see a big difference in the way the .177cal pellets are more effected by the wind then a .22cal, even at 23yds which is where I target shoot my lower powered AG's I can see what the wind is doing as far as blowing the .177cals all over the place! :o
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Mark- i am also regularguy11b/bryan h. I'm not a huge powder burner guy, my background is mostly military weapons to be honest. I am more of an airgun guy than anything.
I hear you about the .22's. But we are not comparing apples to apples i.e. jsb 18.13 and 10.34.
We are comparing top .177 dones to lightweight .22's to achieve a tradeoff for trajectory in a low powered air rifle.
The top .177 domes will hang with the better .22 domes and crush the lightweight domes, wadcutters and etc.
Think about it...
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Oh and I would put the 10.5 grain crosman domes against ANY other pellet you can normally find on the store shelf, in any caliber, for wind or trajectory.
I agree the .22's smack on target is a whole lot more satisfying.
Edit- now we are talking at a given energy level, not a given velocity. As long as it's still low and slow enough to be accurate in.177. Going by comparable velocities the .22's win and it gets better as you increase caliber. That I will agree with.
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Now if we are discussing what you just prefer, that is different.
If we are discussing what gives you more confidence, also different.
As long as I have been a member if this forum, the .177/.22 debate has only gotten deeper! And bigger calibers too.
Whatever puts a smile on your face. If I had my druthers I would shoot an HW 95 in all four calibers!
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;D
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Now if we are discussing what you just prefer, that is different.
If we are discussing what gives you more confidence, also different.
As long as I have been a member if this forum, the .177/.22 debate has only gotten deeper! And bigger calibers too.
Whatever puts a smile on your face. If I had my druthers I would shoot an HW 95 in all four calibers!
Man it takes me a long time to find "the right pellet". With 4 it would take forever. :-[ And by then they wouldn't make them any more... 8) :D
-Y
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The wind argument is blasphemy! Top .177 domes squash .22 pellets in the wind, at this power level.
Hey Guys,
This doesn't have to be debated, it's already been proven ;).
If you know each pellets caliber, ballistic coefficient, distance to target and cross wind speed - Wind Drift is easily calculated in Chairgun. If we wander over "Bob Stern & Lloyd's" Gate, they have (graphed) extensive testing using pellet caiber, velocity and ballistic coefficient to show optimal pellet velocities/caliber and mass that out perform under various conditions.
If we're comparing domed vs. dome (pellets), larger caliber's usually have larger ballistic coefficients -
-> culminating in less wind drift.
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Yes, but this was based on similar velocities, not similar power levels.
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Oh and surely at the top end of power the .177 is going to get blown away in comparison, literally. But in the range of 6-8 fpe energy, the .177 will prove a winner. In retained energy as well as wind and trajectory.
Edit- assuming quality domes of course
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...i'd love to lay claim to this discovery but I did not figure this one out. .22 domes don't start winning until you increase the power well above the hw30 or in some cases even above hw50 power levels.
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Kirk make sure u tell us how or what u think about the .22cal conversion! ;D
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I don't know anything about ballistics, but it seems to me a .177 travelling at 700fps would drift less than a .22 of the same weight and shape travelling at 600fps, or even the same fps because the .177 has smaller profile
I know I'd rather drive a mini cooper in a high wind area rather than a motorhome.
A guy at the range that I shoot at says that he saw an article that PROVED that slower moving pellets are LESS effected by wind than faster moving pellets.
On other airgun topics he knows what he is talking about! 8)
FWIW-When the wind is blowing at more than 10 mph at the range, the 20-25fpe PCP guys are cursing out loud. Meanwhile, I am only muttering under my breath. I shoot a 12fpe springer. ;) ;D
-Y
Sorry Yogi. It's only because you're a better shooter than they are. They're just making excuses for poor shooting. Truth is truth. There's set proven formulas that no matter how much you argue, they remain true. Heavier projectiles generally have a better BC (less wind drift and drop) because of momentum. But the time to target is just as important. All things equal (initial energy) a 10 grain 177 pellet will have a better BC than a 10 grain alloy 22 pellet because of a smaller frontal area and greater sectional density. We can believe whatever we want but physics are not flexible.
Well Ron,
I expect that I am shooting at 50 yards and they are shooting at 75-100 yards has something to do with it. ;D ;)
As I understand BC it is only a function of retained momentum at various distances. Anyway, I will ask the fellow for the link and post it here. The wind drift calculation is only sort of correlated
Don't listen to that old guy at the Concord range, I understand he drinks.
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LOL!!! ;D
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Hey Bob or Lloyd,
We've got an interesting discussion going over on the German Gate, dealing with pellet wind drift.
We're trying to determine whether a regular domed pellet would experience more or less wind drift when comparing standard .177 & .22 caliber pellets - using the same power plant.
For sake of arguments, let's say we have a OEM HW95, shooting .177 cal. at 860 fps while it's .22 counterpart goes 650 fps.
How can Chairgun be doped to calculate this?
Do you have any simple graphs which tell the story?
My basic thought was the higher ballistic coefficient pellet (.22) would experience less drift from the same crosswind. However, does the longer .22 pellet's flight time negate the ballistic coefficient advantage?
Any thoughts or graphics would be appreciated ;),
Kirk
The BC is the primary consideration in wind drift.... higher velocity may, in fact, hurt.... particularly if over 900 fps.... because the drag increases so quickly in the Transonic region (Mach 0.8-1.2)…. You can do a quick confirmation of this with Chairgun…. My article on wind drift in HAM covers this in detail....
https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-diabolo-pellets/
For the velocities you chose, and assuming JSB Express pellets (7.8 gr.in .177 and 14.3 gr. in .22 cal)…. Chairgun calculates a 50 yd. drift for the .177 at 860 fps of 5.5 in.... and for the .22 cal at 650 fps it is 4.65 in.... so a 15% edge in favour of the .22 cal.... The .177 is right in the velocity "sweet spot" at 50 yards, but the .22 cal would benefit from being driven faster.... At 830 fps the drift would drop to 4.09 in.... At equal velocity, the drift is basically inversely proportional to the BC....
Bob
That's it from the Blue Teddy Bear ;)
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Do the same calculations on chairgun with 10.34 and 18.13 jsb domes, at 8 fpe, and get back to me.
A sample of one pellet does not make it a rule, and you are pushing the 7.9's about as fast as they like to go in that example. Well above HW30S territory.
I am no Bob Sterne nor will I ever even pretend to come close to his experience or knowledge of these things. But right here on this one I know I am right.
You strangle it back to HW30S power levels and even at a sligh power disadvantage, the .177 will do marginally better in the wind. Assuming you are slinging top domes. 10.3 jsb, or crosman premiers.
Comparing crosman premiers in .177 and .22 it is not even a contest, the .177 wins and probably even pushed a little bit faster.
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Oh and surely at the top end of power the .177 is going to get blown away in comparison, literally. But in the range of 6-8 fpe energy, the .177 will prove a winner. In retained energy as well as wind and trajectory.
Edit- assuming quality domes of course
Hey Bryan,
I don't want to go back and ask Bob about shooting a HW30 to do the comparison. Again, Chairgun has the data to give us the answer - I wish I had more experience using it.
However, here's my belief given the (mostly) linear (backward) movement of this kind of data:
- The .177 caliber pellet is in the velocity sweet spot at 860 fps in the prior example. Slowing it down is only going to make the (velocity) drag portion of the equation worse and hence its ability to buck the wind drag.
- The .22 caliber pellet is already experiencing a (2x) deficiency with the wind drag and velocity drag at 650 fps. Slowing it down the 450 fps won't hurt it as much as slowing the 860 fps pellet down to 625 fps.
I believe (w/o doing any calculations) the .22 caliber pellet will almost always have the advantage bucking the wind because of it's higher BC. This is simple Math/Physics. While there will always be exceptions, the exceptions are few enough to almost dismiss the idea.
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What gets me right here is I believe you know I am right, and in fact we've had this very conversation several times over the years and figured this out at the lower power levels on this forum.
Yep, .22 has more potential in the wind. Not at/under 12 fpe though, if you are slinging the top domes in each caliber.
The jsb 7.9 are great pellets but they are not even near the top performers in wind. They are too light.
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Plug them in. Don't use the ligtweiggt express.
I have and I'm right according to Chairgun. I am just saying...
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Here is what I got at 8.5 fpe, jsb exact heavy in .177 and .22.
This is what field target has done to .177 domes.
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And here are 8.44's vs 15.9's. A tie.
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I bet you the .177 edges them out at 6 fpe in even a greater variety of pellets.
Real world the springer will likely be a littlemore powerful in .22 but will it be enough to beat the wind better? Or just a tie?
In practice the difference in the wind is probably hardly measurable at HW30 range but it is there ;)
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Kirk make sure u tell us how or what u think about the .22cal conversion! ;D
Hey Mark,
I'm not sure what you mean, except that I converted my HW30S, HW35E, HW50S and HW95 to .22 caliber back in 2017. After shooting them for awhile, I unconverted all of them back to .177 caliber. I much prefer .177 caliber for smaller power plants and .20 caliber for the HW80.
I'm not a big fan of .22 caliber as I don't hunt, even though they are easier to load :D.
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Here are Crosman premiers in .177 and .22.
Even with a very marginal advantage in power level, the .22 still drifts almost twice as bad as the .177 in the same conditions.
So what has been proven?
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Look back at the .25 springers. At spring power levels the .25's not so good until you close in on or exceed 30 fpe and the .25 domes suddenly all break .030 and better coefficients.
At 20 fpe, they just can't. Less than that and it's worse.
It's not as cut and dry as it appears.
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Comparing apples to apples, under 10 fpe the .177 is the clear winner in the wind. And that has been proven.
Edit- waiting for the 20 cal afficionados to straighten me out on this one. I don't know anything about how it will compare here.
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What gets me right here is I believe you know I am right.
Hey Bryan,
The only reason I entered into this conversation is that you like to argue with other members :P.
Most of us here want to know the truth without emotion guff or baggage.
I think our conversation on the merits of .177 caliber pellet bucking the wind better than .22 caliber is moot at best. There are likely velocity exceptions or pellet exceptions where .177 beats .22 caliber, but when you use the terms Crush and Squash, you suggest it's a much broader exception that's untrue.
Kirk
What I'd like to see is for you to turn down the tone of your dialog to be more GTA friendly ;)
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Here are Crosman premiers in .177 and .22.
Even with a very marginal advantage in power level, the .22 still drifts almost twice as bad as the .177 in the same conditions.
So what has been proven?
This example suggest the 7.9 grain pellet has a higher BC than the 14.33 grain?
I don't think so ..........
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At this power level they do.
It is cute, you getting emotional and projecting it on me.
Arguments with other members... i normally just stop clicking those threads.
The argument on the mass and etc bears merit. Older pellet designs it is still true.
With today's best modern dome pellets, at lower power levels the .177 just edges them out. Not because .177 is inherently better, but because the pellets are better.
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I know you've got too much skin in the game to concede the point. Especially just getting started as a tuner.
But I won't just watch the misinformation spread and keep my "mouth" shut.
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But yeah, what a low blow.
Accuse me of picking arguments with other members, and use that as a tool to end/win the debate?
That's weak brother. Had a ton of respect for you... still have some :-X
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If the results with .177 premiers vs .22 hurts your brain, plug in the 7.9 .177's vs the 10.5 .177 premiers.
The 7.9 premier beats it. Chairgun used to include another factor called "wsf". I can't remember exactly what it stood for but basically is a measure of resistance to wind drift, ballistic coefficients not withstanding. But long story short, just because a pellet retains energy better downrange doesn't mean it does better in the wind, and I thin that can be attribute to thesoze of the skirt and the size of the hollow cavity and etc. it's not like bullets that are solid.
7.9 grain brown box premiers were engineered for field target, plain and simple. At HFT power levels, they are hard to beat for wind drift.
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Hey Kirk I just noticed this thread was started back in July 3 2017 ::) my bad ;D
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If the results with .177 premiers vs .22 hurts your brain, plug in the 7.9 .177's vs the 10.5 .177 premiers.
The 7.9 premier beats it. Chairgun used to include another factor called "wsf". I can't remember exactly what it stood for but basically is a measure of resistance to wind drift, ballistic coefficients not withstanding. But long story short, just because a pellet retains energy better downrange doesn't mean it does better in the wind, and I thin that can be attribute to thesoze of the skirt and the size of the hollow cavity and etc. it's not like bullets that are solid.
7.9 grain brown box premiers were engineered for field target, plain and simple. At HFT power levels, they are hard to beat for wind drift.
Hey Guys,
Not trying to dig this up for argument sake, but it would be nice if Laid Over (or someone who understands chairgun well) could come up with some Top (.177 cal.) domed pellets which beat .22 caliber domed pellets at bucking the wind at lower velocities.
Since I stepped away from shooting PCP's in 2016, I have missed many of the updated ballistic information/results touted by the Blue Teddy Bear in the PCP gate or Bob's own Gate.
A few rules of thumb (pellet choices & velocities) where you're better off (wind drift wise) with .177 over .22 caliber. Let's also trying to keep shooting distances in the gun's normal range as most shooters will not shoot CPL or CPH out of a HW30S at 60 yards.
I would love to see this and I'm sure newer members would like to understand the trade-off thresholds when buying an airgun (.177 vs. .22) or pellets in each of these guns.
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Gotta chime in again, the .22 v the .177 in the HW30 seems to most favor the .177, and perhaps even the .20, but in .22 most overlook it thinking it's too slow. I miss the targets more with the HW30 .177 and the R7 more than with the HW30S .22. Any of my .177s will frustrate me despite doing well because they shift enough whether by wind or temperature or sensitivity to stay consistently "cannon balling" the steel targets like a slow .22.
I've shot at knots at close and far distances 5 to 10 times with each rifle and the .22s are always consistent to remind me it's NOT me! (NOOOO! It's not all about me! ;D), it's the tiny little pellet.
So I've been shooting .25s out a HW95L and now we're talking! Those little steel circles when placed right in my open sights ('issued') SLAM without deviation of pellet! Now this is a BIGGER pellet being more accurate here!
Guess what? The HW95L .25 is TOP GUN in this house followed by the .20 HW80 and the HW30S .22 and then the HW35Es and the rest I guess.
You'll say it won't last as top gun as soon as another arrives but I think I know what people have been saying about the HW95--something along the lines to "end it and get an HW95L!" ;D
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Kirk, i agree, at the same velocity the .22 probably wins.
It is a fallacy because none of these guns throw them the same velocity!
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Kirk, i agree, at the same velocity the .22 probably wins.
It is a fallacy because none of these guns throw them the same velocity!
If the results with .177 premiers vs .22 hurts your brain, plug in the 7.9 .177's vs the 10.5 .177 premiers.
The 7.9 premier beats it. Chairgun used to include another factor called "wsf". I can't remember exactly what it stood for but basically is a measure of resistance to wind drift, ballistic coefficients not withstanding. But long story short, just because a pellet retains energy better downrange doesn't mean it does better in the wind, and I thin that can be attribute to thesoze of the skirt and the size of the hollow cavity and etc. it's not like bullets that are solid.
7.9 grain brown box premiers were engineered for field target, plain and simple. At HFT power levels, they are hard to beat for wind drift.
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Hey Guys,
Not trying to dig this up for argument sake, but it would be nice if Laid Over (or someone who understands chairgun well) could come up with some Top (.177 cal.) domed pellets which beat .22 caliber domed pellets at bucking the wind at lower velocities.
Since I stepped away from shooting PCP's in 2016, I have missed many of the updated ballistic information/results touted by the Blue Teddy Bear in the PCP gate or Bob's own Gate.
A few rules of thumb (pellet choices & velocities) where you're better off (wind drift wise) with .177 over .22 caliber. Let's also trying to keep shooting distances in the gun's normal range as most shooters will not shoot CPL or CPH out of a HW30S at 60 yards.
I would love to see this and I'm sure newer members would like to understand the trade-off thresholds when buying an airgun (.177 vs. .22) or pellets in each of these guns.
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The .177 wins in the HW30S. And I understand Chairgun perfectly.
But I obviously didn't fast from the internet and social media long enough.
Time for another break i guess