GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: n2omike on June 15, 2017, 12:50:49 AM
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Build:
.22 Synrod
Lane Regulator set to 130 Barr (1885 psi)
Hill Valve
0.160 Transfer Port
MM Hammer Forged Barrel drilled to match TP
WAR TSS (stock outer spring, long inner spring... same as the .25)
Rocker1 39.5 gram MDS Hammer
Gun is driving me crazy. Started out with a even weaker outer hammer spring, with shorter inner and free play on both springs and a 0.144 TP. Shot 840 fps. Wanted to go around 880 fps, so I turned up some preload on the inner spring, and it did NOTHING.
Okay... Installed a 0.160" TP... and still no change.
Okay... Installed the stronger hammer springs, like are in the .25... and still no change.
Okay... Cranked up the preload on those, and still no change.
No matter what I do, it has hit a wall and won't go over 840 fps.
Every shot is within 5 fps or so, but I want that extra velocity... and cannot figure out WHY it won't shoot any faster, no matter what I do!
Any ideas? It's like it's got a dang restrictor plate or something!
Almost midnight. I'm going to sleep on it for the night, and look at it tomorrow.
Thanks for any input!
Mike
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Lol the wall your hitting is simply your setpoint on the reg. Took me alittle while to learn that also. Bump up the reg 100psi and I think you should hit your goal.
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What you are describing sounds to me what I call the "plateau velocity".... ie the max. possible with that combination of port size, pressure, and barrel length.... No matter how hard you hit the valve, you can't get any more, because the valve is open until the pellet exits the muzzle.... Adding more air after that just wastes air.... The easiest way to get more velocity is to add more pressure.... The only thing that doesn't fit is that you tried a larger transfer port and got no change.... but if your barrel port is smaller than the TP you had, that explains that.... It is also possible that for some reason your valve lift is restricted, and adding hammer strike just makes the hammer bounce off the back of the valve, without opening the valve stem further.... What pellet weight are you using, to give an idea of the FPE level at 1885 psi?....
Bob
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Thanks guys!
The gun is shooting 18.1 grain JSBs. I drilled the barrel when I first got it to to match the 0.160" TP.
If anything, swapping in the larger TP and springs made the gun shoot a few FPS slower.
I did notice that the valve spring in the 22's Hill valve was significantly stronger than the one in the 25's WAR valve... but it seems, changing the hammer springs would have had an effect there.
I'll try to play with it tomorrow. Maybe bump up the regulator, and install a softer valve spring. That, and check everything else out.
Thanks
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Lol the wall your hitting is simply your setpoint on the reg. Took me alittle while to learn that also. Bump up the reg 100psi and I think you should hit your goal.
+1
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What is your plenum size?
As others, I suspect it is the psi/plenum size limit. I will say, that on many reg builds using the hill valve, they all seem to get good results with the 6lb hill valve spring. You might consider changing it while you are in there.
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Our mods are very similar,I run a 26 gram MDS hammer and the hill 6lb poppet spring 1800 psi huma,.163 TP transfer port wide open.I can launch JSB 18.1's well over 950FPS if I tune to it... I shoot 18's @ 880-890 fps, MMHFB .22 is amazing,but slows the pellets down a bit....a good time was spent polishing the barrel with JB paste and I put a liberal amount of FP-10 lube on the pellets...now shoots a lil faster after the polish and lube.
My best mods where the light weight 26 gram MDS hammer and that 6lb poppet spring,gun was nice before but now its much better,very consistent.
I run the TSS stock outer spring, long inner.The tss brought more efficiency to the synrod 55 shots on reg 5 more good shots fallow then POI drops a bit.
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My 2260 HPA conversion cranks the 18 gr. JSBs out at 960 fps (37 FPE) on just 1600 psi (with efficiency > 1.4 FPE/CI).... but it has a huge plenum, I'm using the entire 2260 tube (65cc).... I would suspect your plenum volume is too small, creating a large pressure drop during the shot.... IF that is the case, either a larger plenum, or an increase in setpoint to compensate, may be necessary....
Bob
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The plenum on the .22 isn't much smaller than the plenum on the .25, and the .25 is attaining 53 FPE without a sweat... so I'm not really sold on the small plenum yet. (130 vs 155 Barr, Hill vs. WAR valve, 0.160" vs. 0.187" TP)
I DO want to change the valve spring. The valve spring in the Hill valve (I did not plan on going regulated when I bought it) is a LOT stiffer than the WAR valve in the .25. The WAR is very soft. I'm not sure which rate spring was installed in the valve. I do have some of the 'lighter' springs rated at 28 lbs, but am going to order a 6 lb spring. The one in the .22 is AT LEAST the 28 lb unit.
I'll be away for the next week, and will go over the gun and install the 6 lb spring sometime after coming back. Hopefully, that will help free up some power. Hammer weight is 39.5 grams.
What do you guys think? Sound like a good move? There is ZERO hammer bounce right now... even at lower pressures as I was trying to shoot all the air out of it! Took FOREVER! lol I think the valve spring is too strong.
Thanks for all previous and future input!!!
Mike
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That still doesn't tell me what the plenum volume is.... My reg'd 2560 gets 52 FPE with 25.4 gr. on only 1900 psi.... but again with a 65 cc Plenum.... Small plenums really limit the FPE potential.... or you have to up the setpoint to compensate....
Bob
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That still doesn't tell me what the plenum volume is.... My reg'd 2560 gets 52 FPE with 25.4 gr. on only 1900 psi.... but again with a 65 cc Plenum.... Small plenums really limit the FPE potential.... or you have to up the setpoint to compensate....
Bob
Sorry Bob. I just put in the FPE, etc that I wanted, and he chose the pressures and did the sizing. He didn't include the volume in the paper work. Both plenums were a couple inches long or so, and the .22 unit was only around 3/8" shorter than the .25... and it shot really hard, so I'm not really leaning toward insufficient volume. When I do take it apart, I'll use my biuret and measure it.
Here is how he chooses his pressures and plenum volumes. It gets really technical. But, also gives some guidelines.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxDsz9IVH1pwczVuMnREb09UcWc/view
Here's one he sent me on how to adjust it. The little ring is handy for retrieving the unit. Too bad I forgot to install it. lol
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxDsz9IVH1pwSGY5ZzhBdjFLeTg/view
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If you want a quick check on seeing if the lighter valve spring will do anything for you, you could throw the stock hammer back in and whack the valve good and hard with stiff springs in it. If you don't get any more power out of the gun that way, you probably won't gain anything from a lighter valve spring . . .
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First and foremost, did you check for any leakage / air loss around the TP? You can easily lose 50-100+ fps if that area isn't sealed well. Can't believe no one mentioned this simple possibility! (I sure hope its just this tbh)
The .25 cal lane regulator plenum is approximately 18 CC's, I would guess your .22 cal is around 12-15 cc's, but that is a long shot.
I would suggest bumping up reg pressure as others have said around 100 psi if you find no other faults with the rifle.
1950-2k set point is pretty standard on a 19.45" barrel, the other guys commenting on making great power with less psi are using HUGE plenums and a 24" barrel, so don't let that insult your current #'s...
Your recommended plenum size for 30 FPE @ around a 1800-1900 set point is...18-19 CC's! :)
If you're @ 12-15 cc with plenum and the hill valve SHOULD have at least 4-5 cc's, that means your plenum size is fine...you should be running 29/31 FPE with 1800-1900 psi of air. Your ports are plenty big.
As you noticed, when you stop seeing increase in velocity regardless of spring / hammer weight, that means you hit the plateau for that current pressure/barrel/port arrangement. You either need to find any major air losses or increase set point/plenum although 1850/18cc should make 30 fpe all day on the mrod.
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Our mods are very similar,I run a 26 gram MDS hammer and the hill 6lb poppet spring 1800 psi huma,.163 TP transfer port wide open.I can launch JSB 18.1's well over 950FPS if I tune to it... I shoot 18's @ 880-890 fps, MMHFB .22 is amazing,but slows the pellets down a bit....a good time was spent polishing the barrel with JB paste and I put a liberal amount of FP-10 lube on the pellets...now shoots a lil faster after the polish and lube.
My best mods where the light weight 26 gram MDS hammer and that 6lb poppet spring,gun was nice before but now its much better,very consistent.
I run the TSS stock outer spring, long inner.The tss brought more efficiency to the synrod 55 shots on reg 5 more good shots fallow then POI drops a bit.
Nice! What is the plenum size on your gun?
Thanks!
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The Hill valve with the Hill 6lb spring has a plenum space of 4.5cc total based on my water test.
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I took the gun all the way back down again, and adjusted the regulator for 135 Barr. The plenum has a lot of excess aluminum and sharp edges around where the gauge screws in, so I got out the grinder and removed a LOT of aluminum, and rounded off the sharp corners. I didn't do a fluid test, but the plenum itself, is exactly 2" long.
I put it all together, and no matter where I adjust the inner spring on the TSS... it shoots with the same velocity... around 830 fps.
I guess I'm going to wait until the 6lb valve spring gets here, and try it again. The one that's in it is advertised at 28 lbs.
This thing has me scratching my head!
The .25 was awesome... 3 mags of 33.95 grain JSB's at 840 fps. (53 ft-lbs)
This one won't 'open up' no matter what I do!
I guess we wait on the valve spring.
Getting a lot of practice taking this thing apart! Too much! lol
Maybe I'll go put a heavy, stock hammer and the biggest spring I can find in it, and see what happens....
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Put a heavy hammer in it, adjusted to full spring pressure... Same exact results as before. I don't know WHAT to do with this thing!
830
823
825
828
825
822
823
826
826
824
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Gun doesn't by any chance have an O-ring or two sitting behind the valve.... ala Bstaley mod.... does it?.... or anything else stopping the hammer from moving further as you increase the power behind it?....
Bob
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Has the poppet head mushroomed down into the valve seat causing flow restriction and less lift with said hammer energy? What about the seals leaking at the TP and barrel? You can let a little air out using a degas tool while placing your finger over the barrel tip. Should be plenty of pressure on barrel exit with no air leaks audible from the seals.
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It sounds like you may have a velocity regulator in the barrel......
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It sounds like you may have a velocity regulator in the barrel......
Lol, I would certainly have that MM barrel spotless and pellets lubed for best velocity.
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There has to be either a restricted air way somewhere (barrel regulator, haha) or a significant leak that only allows so much pressure to build behind pellet before leaking?
I would go as far as tossing the .25 cal's plenum onto the .22 cal to see if it makes any significant difference having a slightly larger plenum, as it should...but that is a lot of work that I would personally do just to be conclusive!
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It sounds like you may have a velocity regulator in the barrel......
Lol, I would certainly have that MM barrel spotless and pellets lubed for best velocity.
Lol is right! Yeah make sure it's clean and also remember these barrels are tight! You lose a good 20-30fps from these barrels over the stock ones.
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This is how it did BEFORE installing the regulator...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=122114.msg1185274#msg1185274 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=122114.msg1185274#msg1185274)
All I did besides adding the regulator, is changed to a 0.160" trasfer port and a 39.5 gram hammer. That, and I didn't need the depinger and gauge block anymore. Even at 2000 psi, it was still shooting 906 fps through a 0.122" Transfer Port. Go Figure...
Gen II .22 Marauder
WAR Depinger
Opened up Gauge Block
Hill Valve
Stock 0.122" Transfer Port
WAR TSS
WAR MDS 60 gram Nylon/Brass Hammer
Marmot Malitia Hammer Forged Barrel
18.1 grain JSB pellets. Tin of 500 lubed with 20 drops FP-10 oil
FIRST trial... and ONLY one for tonight. Just a run-down to make sure it works. lol
3000 - 2000 psi (30 shots)
Middle screw of TSS backed ALL THE WAY OUT on lowest setting.
1. 942
2. 933
3. 942
4. 966
5. 946
6. 965
7. 944
8. 942
9. 944
10. 946
11. 946
12. 945
13. 951
14. 947
15. 944
16. 942
17. 942
18. 966
19. 938
20. 936
21. 933
22. 933
23. 928
24. 925
25. 922
26. 921
27. 936
28. 907
29. 910
30. 906
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Don't know why any of you genius individuals didn't recommend this, but here's what I did to rule out the regulator/plenum...
I REMOVED the regulator, and pumped the gun up to the regulator set point, and tried it at that pressure... sans regulator.
According to the data in the previous post, it SHOULD have shot around 906 fps... and it did that with a 0.122 TP. With the 0.160" unit, an even heavier hammer, and MORE spring tension, it should have shot significantly faster than that!
Guess what?
SAME FRIGGIN 830 FPS!!!!!!!
So, there's a major restriction SOMEWHERE. I have a stock .22 and a stock .25 valve I could try, and see if that changes anything. I took the Hill unit apart, and didn't see anything wrong. The plunger seems work just fine. I'm about at a friggin' loss. At least I know it's NOT the regulator or plenum.
I love this gun... :o
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Don't know why any of you genius individuals didn't recommend this, but here's what I did to rule out the regulator/plenum...
I REMOVED the regulator, and pumped the gun up to the regulator set point, and tried it at that pressure... sans regulator.
According to the data in the previous post, it SHOULD have shot around 906 fps... and it did that with a 0.122 TP. With the 0.160" unit, and even heavier hammer, it should have shot significantly faster than that, even.
Guess what?
SAME FRIGGIN 830 FPS!!!!!!!
So, there's a major restriction SOMEWHERE. I have a stock .22 and a stock .25 valve I could try, and see if that changes anything. I took the Hill unit apart, and didn't see anything wrong. The plunger seems work just fine. I'm about at a friggin' loss. At least I know it's NOT the regulator or plenum.
I love this gun... :o
I suggested exactly this...restriction or air loss/leak
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I suggested exactly this...restriction or air loss/leak
Yea, there has to be a restriction or leak SOMEWHERE.
I just got finished taking the gun COMPLETELY apart. There's really nothing to that valve. It opens just fine. The TP is metal, and uses the gaskets. Hard to have much of a leak there, I would think. Barrel port is aligned just fine with the Transfer. When the lighter valve spring comes in, I'll re-assemble the gun with exacting care and all new o-rings/gaskets/seals, making sure everything is aligned just right, and will give the barrel another scrub down... and we'll see what happens. I've got the barrel out... everything completely apart.
Fun Stuff... Can't blame the regulator guy. The one in the .25 works superb, and I gave him free reign on how to set that one up. Guy really seems to know his stuff. Maybe I'll install another Transfer Port, just in case this one might be cracked or something. I've got another 0.160" unit. I'll put it in there, along with some new gaskets. Either that, or use one of the poly units. Hill makes a REALLY nice one out of good material. They come cut super straight, and are the perfect length to crush just the perfect amount. Best ones I've seen from anywhere. They work great in the .25. That will be my next move if the next re-assembly once the new valve spring comes in doesn't work out.
On the other hand... I'm getting a LOT faster at tearing this thing down and putting it back together! LOL
Thanks for all the insight! I'll keep you guys posted! :o
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You mentioned a 39 gram hammer at one point and waiting on a lighter valve spring. Just make sure you have plenty of hammer energy to open the valve enough. You stated you ruled out the regulator so it's got to be something simple along those lines. Not much else left unless the poppet is not opening enough or gauge is way off.
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n2omike,
Does your MDS hammer have little grooves on the sides of the hammer to allow air to go past the hammer in flight? If the hammer is a little snug as far as tolerances it could be experiencing some sort of an air lock. I've seen some hammer with the little grooves machined down the sides and I'v also seen hammers with holes drilled through them. If you got your TSS from Travis you'll probably have a hole through your endcap where the adjustment screws are, that is there so "air cushioning" isn't a problem. Bob had a build one time with similar symptoms and I think Gippeto suggested this as the problem, IIRC.
Chris
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n2omike,
Does your MDS hammer have little grooves on the sides of the hammer to allow air to go past the hammer in flight? If the hammer is a little snug as far as tolerances it could be experiencing some sort of an air lock. I've seen some hammer with the little grooves machined down the sides and I'v also seen hammers with holes drilled through them. If you got your TSS from Travis you'll probably have a hole through your endcap where the adjustment screws are, that is there so "air cushioning" isn't a problem. Bob had a build one time with similar symptoms and I think Gippeto suggested this as the problem, IIRC.
Chris
Yes, the hammers from David (Rocker1) that I have in the .25 and .22 both have grooves in the side. Plus, I have tried another, heavy hammer in the gun as well. No change. I've got the gun torn completely apart (barrel removed, valve apart etc) Once the lighter valve spring comes in the mail, I will do a very careful re-assembly with all new o-rings and TP gaskets. If it still won't "open up" I'll try a poly TP... and maybe grab the gun by the butt stock, and use it to try and chop down a tree! lol
There SHOULD be something obvious... but, I'm just not seeing it.
Thanks, guys.
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n2omike,
Does your MDS hammer have little grooves on the sides of the hammer to allow air to go past the hammer in flight? If the hammer is a little snug as far as tolerances it could be experiencing some sort of an air lock. I've seen some hammer with the little grooves machined down the sides and I'v also seen hammers with holes drilled through them. If you got your TSS from Travis you'll probably have a hole through your endcap where the adjustment screws are, that is there so "air cushioning" isn't a problem. Bob had a build one time with similar symptoms and I think Gippeto suggested this as the problem, IIRC.
Chris
Yes, the hammers from David (Rocker1) that I have in the .25 and .22 both have grooves in the side. Plus, I have tried another, heavy hammer in the gun as well. No change. I've got the gun torn completely apart (barrel removed, valve apart etc) Once the lighter valve spring comes in the mail, I will do a very careful re-assembly with all new o-rings and TP gaskets. If it still won't "open up" I'll try a poly TP... and maybe grab the gun by the butt stock, and use it to try and chop down a tree! lol
There SHOULD be something obvious... but, I'm just not seeing it.
Thanks, guys.
Did you ever hear back from Lane on the plenum threads for the gauge? He was fairly dismissive when I inquired about it and refused to accept something was wrong with the threading.
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Did you ever hear back from Lane on the plenum threads for the gauge? He was fairly dismissive when I inquired about it and refused to accept something was wrong with the threading.
We exchanged about 25 emails. I believe he realizes it, but he mentioned having about 100 plenums already CNC machined... and I don't think he wants to throw in the trash. lol
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Did you ever hear back from Lane on the plenum threads for the gauge? He was fairly dismissive when I inquired about it and refused to accept something was wrong with the threading.
We exchanged about 25 emails. I believe he realizes it, but he mentioned having about 100 plenums already CNC machined... and I don't think he wants to throw in the trash. lol
Right on, I am not concerned as mine is leak free and I can achieve a seal.
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did you double check the velocity port screw on the side of the gun to make sure it was still fully open? sometimes when tightening the set screw it will screw in the other one as well.
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did you double check the velocity port screw on the side of the gun to make sure it was still fully open? sometimes when tightening the set screw it will screw in the other one as well.
In the OP he mentioned a Hill valve which does not have a VMS.
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The parts from Hill Air Guns came in today. Got the 6lb valve spring, new gaskets, o-rings, even a new 0.162" transfer port!
Was careful, and put it all back together very carefully... Even turned the regulator back down to 130 Barr.
Tested...
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810 fps. This was with it turned all the way down... so I turned up the compression of the inner spring of the TSS all the way up, and guess what! NO CHANGE!!!!!
LOTS of $(Q&*^$)#$*%^)$)%~@# ensued!!!!
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Didn't really like the transfer port arrangement for some reason, and decided to install one of the Hill 0.0187" poly units. With it turned all the way down again, 900 fps!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I don't know WHAT the problem was with those other Transfer Ports, but will probably look at them, take some measurements, and compare the Hill 0.162" units to the stock ones, and see if there are any differences. (gun without the regulator was shot with a stock 0.122" TP)
But, first.... I'll load up some pellets, air up the gun, and do a shot string. 8)
To be continued!
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Okay, first shot string... Starting at 3100 psi, down to about 1400 psi. 40 shots, and about 30-34 good ones... or 3 mags.
I'm not sure what velocity these Marmot Militia Hammer Forged barrels like with the 18.1 grain JSB pellets, but last I read, I think it was about 875-880. Seems like it needs slowed down just a tad, and may be a little bit of an air hog. May have to re-install the 28 lb valve spring. lol Might save a little air, and knock the velocity down just a tad. Right now, I'm just glad it's finally working... and I wasn't forced to try to take it by the butt stock, and attempt to chop a tree down with it! :o
1. 907
2. 895
3. 896
4. 898
5. 894
6. 895
7. 902
8. 891
9. 901
10. 893
11. 904
12. 897
13. 898
14. 903
15. 892
16. 899
17. 903
18. 892
19. 902
20. 896
21. 895
22. 892
23. 901
24. 894
25. 890
26. 903
27. 890
28. 894
29. 887
30. 897
31. 888
32. 880
33. 879
34. 878
35. 847
36. 860
37. 865
38. 844
39. 839
40. 825
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Now you're cooking with gas. What was the ending pressure? Looks like to me if you just backed off on the hammer you could level out the declining string. It may take a little more tweaking but that would be a good start IMO. The MM barrel does well around 850-890 for me.
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Now you're cooking with gas. What was the ending pressure? Looks like to me if you just backed off on the hammer you could level out the declining string. It may take a little more tweaking but that would be a good start IMO. The MM barrel does well around 850-890 for me.
I already pulled it back apart, and installed the 28lb valve spring. I'll put it back together, and see what that one change does. After that, we'll see about backing the hammer spring off.
I did take some measurements of the Transfer Ports. The Hill 0.162" has an OD of 0.192" where it fits inside the gaskets. The stock valve measures 0.178". This makes it really hard to install. I can install one gasket on the TP, and use a flat screwdriver to squeeze the assembly down into the pressure tube, then stretch the second gasket on the TP... and lower the receiver down onto it. It SEEMS to go on fine, but I believe things go awry, and the gasket slips off. Upon disassembly, there is a line on the gasket where it looks like the sharp end edges are just pressing on the end of the gasket, instead of being inserted into it. Pressure hits it, and it leaks. Hill's poly unit is cut to the perfect length, is the perfect material, and is dead straight on both ends. Easy, peezy!
Oh well, time to go put this thing back together for the 100th time! lol
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I'm glad you found it. I have been following this with great interest. maybe the seal was partially covering the port or leaking as you said. Either way it's wonderful that you're back up to power. I really want to do some work on mine just can't seem to get started.
Best.
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Looked pretty good with low ES and high power! You will be able to stretch it out even more by lowering the velocity more.
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Installed the 28lb valve spring. No other changes. Pressure from 3100 psi - 1600 psi.
Looks like it's DONE! FOUR solid mags, extremely consistent, and it looks like it's time to mount a scope and see how this thing is going to shoot!!! 8)
1. 880
2. 882
3. 886
4. 885
5. 885
6. 885
7. 887
8. 884
9. 885
10. 887
11. 888
12. 891
13. 890
14. 888
15. 887
16. 881
17. 885
18. 899
19. 883
20. 884
21. 885
22. 889
23. 900
24. 883
25. 883
26. 884
27. 883
28. 894
29. 889
30. 884
31. 891
32. 883
33. 887
34. 884
35. 884
36. 886
37. 886
38. 898
39. 888
40. 888
41. 877
42. 864
43. 865
44. 865
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First and foremost, did you check for any leakage / air loss around the TP? You can easily lose 50-100+ fps if that area isn't sealed well. Can't believe no one mentioned this simple possibility! (I sure hope its just this tbh)
Haha I love how the problem was the first thing I suggested....am I guru or a savant? LOL
I do know a thing or two....or three
I love being wrong because that is a chance to learn, but what I love more than that is being right on the money! WOOO. Glad its fixed my friend, ENJOY!
Oh and the extra shots you obtained from the stiffer valve spring? BINGO GJ. You actually answered a question I had lingering in the back of my mind...where I was certain a stiffer valve spring is ALWAYS beneficial, and the idea that tuning with light weight springs is best just blows my mind, even though I am currently running a 5lb spring ::)
40+ shots on the heavier valve spring vs 35 on the light weight valve spring. That is a HUGE gain! I believe this CONFIRMS how beneficial it is to NOT run a light weight valve spring in many valves, to boot it appears your SD and ES tightened way up on that stiffer valve spring as well :)
I actually have a custom 40-60 lb (need to test, have a scale coming) lb valve spring for my custom valve I plan on putting in, based on your gains in shot count, the 40-60 lb spring should CERTAINLY aid me!
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You definitely got more shots with better efficiency on this one. I don't believe you are done, but if so enjoy!
(http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/dkwachob/Forum%20Photos%20Do%20not%20delete/n2omike%2022%20reg%2002_zpswsmcxbhd.jpg~original)
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Oh and the extra shots you obtained from the stiffer valve spring? BINGO GJ. You actually answered a question I had lingering in the back of my mind...where I was certain a stiffer valve spring is ALWAYS beneficial, and the idea that tuning with light weight springs is best just blows my mind, even though I am currently running a 5lb spring ::)
40+ shots on the heavier valve spring vs 35 on the light weight valve spring. That is a HUGE gain! I believe this CONFIRMS how beneficial it is to NOT run a light weight valve spring in many valves, to boot it appears your SD and ES tightened way up on that stiffer valve spring as well :)
It's actually 31 full power shots on the 6lb valve spring, vs. 40 with the 28lb unit.
I actually have a custom 40-60 lb (need to test, have a scale coming) lb valve spring for my custom valve I plan on putting in, based on your gains in shot count, the 40-60 lb spring should CERTAINLY aid me!
The 28lb spring from Hill is actually a LIGHTER spring than stock. I have a stock spring that is quite a bit stiffer than that one. It might be 40-60lb. The wire is definitely a lot thicker. I'll see about taking a picture of both (or all 3) later.
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Oh and the extra shots you obtained from the stiffer valve spring? BINGO GJ. You actually answered a question I had lingering in the back of my mind...where I was certain a stiffer valve spring is ALWAYS beneficial, and the idea that tuning with light weight springs is best just blows my mind, even though I am currently running a 5lb spring ::)
40+ shots on the heavier valve spring vs 35 on the light weight valve spring. That is a HUGE gain! I believe this CONFIRMS how beneficial it is to NOT run a light weight valve spring in many valves, to boot it appears your SD and ES tightened way up on that stiffer valve spring as well :)
It's actually 31 full power shots on the 6lb valve spring, vs. 40 with the 28lb unit.
I actually have a custom 40-60 lb (need to test, have a scale coming) lb valve spring for my custom valve I plan on putting in, based on your gains in shot count, the 40-60 lb spring should CERTAINLY aid me!
The 28lb spring from Hill is actually a LIGHTER spring than stock. I have a stock spring that is quite a bit stiffer than that one. It might be 40-60lb. The wire is definitely a lot thicker. I'll see about taking a picture of both (or all 3) later.
You're reiterating what I already stated, yet in context that seems argumentative, maybe you misread what I said but I am stating " 35 shots on the LIGHT 6 lb spring and 40+ on the HEAVY 28 lb spring = proves my theory that STIFFER valve springs are BENEFICIAL. "
I would say 35 shots on the light weight spring looked okay, and 41 on the stiffer. JMO though as I am being more forgiving on the LW spring :)
Nonetheless I don't believe we disagree
Stock gen ll marauder valve spring is around 30-32 lbs, tested with a spring rate calculator.
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You definitely got more shots with better efficiency on this one. I don't believe you are done, but if so enjoy!
NOT done?!?! What else would YOU do??? LOL! :o
The shot string was very, very consistent.... except for two fliers that zoomed up close to 900 fps for some reason. Hard to say what caused that... but I'm happy with FOUR solid mags. If it's accurate, I'll call it DONE. If it's not what I want, I might try turning it down a little bit.
At this point, I'm tired of working on it! I need to paint my house! lol
I may do another shot string to back up the last one, and see if it still has those random fliers. If it wasn't for those, this thing is GOOD!
Final Combination:
.22 Synrod
Marmot Militia Hammer Forged Barrel
Lane Regulator set at 130 Barr (1885 psi)
Hill Valve
Hill 0.187" poly TP
Barrel NOT drilled out. These come around 0.160", I believe.
WAR TSS with stock outer and long inner spring
Rocker1 39.5 gram MDS Hammer
3100 psi fill pressure
40 shots at around 885 fps w/18.1 grain JSBs
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Personally I would go to Acehardware and get a nylon spacer 1" long @ .250 OD with .14" ID...they also come with .171" ID so you don't have to drill that part out. If you went with .171" ID I would get the .5" inch spacer and shave it down to .465-.47" in length and toss that in. Ideally you'd want a T-port of around .165" IMO which SHOULD aid you even slightly more with efficiency, although not a TON. I slide the nylon spacer over a drill bit to help keep it very flat, and from there I try to keep the bit straight as I slide it across sand paper to reduce its OAL...I then wrap 1 layer of masking tape sized to the tp around it to thicken it so it sits a little better during install and centers it over your port, as that hole is .265" in the stock gun.
You want to closely match your ports with your tp and go slightly bigger so there are no ledges in that passage, at least IMO. So its better to have the side of the TP on the valve exit port a little bigger than the valves exit port, and the barrel side slightly smaller. What I did was just port my barrel much larger than my tp/valve exit port so I didn't have to taper my TP. A ledge in the TP (which the current tp you're using shouldn't have being so oversized) would create turbulence and hurt air flow.
From there I would suggest lightening the hammer more but that will require a bit more spring to get back to the power you want, but I think a .22 cal regulated marauder should be running a 22-32 gr hammer at most, but that is just my opinion.
Currently, if your numbers are all right, you're only hovering around 1 FPE/CI? It's not terrible considering the power you're at but certainly seems it can be approved upon slightly, I could see 10-20% higher shot count, likely another whole clip if you really dialed it all in. Your MINIMUM expected shot count (imo) is around 35, and MAX shot count (again imo) is around 88 (at this power level) with the stock barrel. Since you're not stock and I know the MM barrel is a bit tighter and reduces fps which hurts the FPE/CI number, I would expect a slight reduction in efficiency. I prefer my tunes to be either half of the max or better..ie: 44 shots at minimum in that psi range (3100-1600) GL
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You're reiterating what I already stated, yet in context that seems argumentative, maybe you misread what I said but I am stating " 35 shots on the LIGHT 6 lb spring and 40+ on the HEAVY 28 lb spring = proves my theory that STIFFER valve springs are BENEFICIAL. "
I would say 35 shots on the light weight spring looked okay, and 41 on the stiffer. JMO though as I am being more forgiving on the LW spring :)
Nonetheless I don't believe we disagree
Stock gen ll marauder valve spring is around 30-32 lbs, tested with a spring rate calculator.
Not arguing. I was looking when it first started to fall off, and we're both seeing the same basic thing. 31 vs 40 shots is a huge difference. The 6lb spring is too light. The 28 might be just right.
As for available valve springs... I BELIEVE the Marauders came with two different valve springs. One, a really stiff one, and the 'not so stiff' one you measured. These are the three I have. The 6lb on the left, then the 28lb, and whatever that one on the right is.
Hill sells valve springs. He sells the 'lightest' which is the 6lb, the 'lighter' which is the 28lb, and the 'higher' one that might be 59lb if I'm reading it right. They are about $7 each at hillairgun dot com.
Here is a picture of the three springs side by side.
Good Luck!
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l54/n2omike/valvesprings_zpsaourualp.jpg)
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N20Mike,
Awesome job and great work. Check out some 21.14 barracudas. They shoot great and get the FPS to FPE level in line.
Check out this post from 2016 when I did my 22synrod. This is everything I have done to my 22synrod and it's still the same as when I did it.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103892.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103892.0)
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The one on the right *looks* like the one I measured using an online spring rate calculator and the springs specs. It came out to around 32 lbs. Although mine is a bronze color which is a different grade of material at least I assumed so maybe yours is stiffer! I believe mine (gen ll) is made of Phos-brnz Grade A material. Its the same color as the valve.
I didn't know hill had the 3 and you were referring to those when you said stiffer! So my apology as I thought you just meant the stock stiffer spring which a close match to the 28 lb hill one :)
If my spring is underwhelming on the rating factor then I will definitely get one from hill. Thanks !
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You definitely got more shots with better efficiency on this one. I don't believe you are done, but if so enjoy!
NOT done?!?! What else would YOU do??? LOL! :o
The shot string was very, very consistent.... except for two fliers that zoomed up close to 900 fps for some reason. Hard to say what caused that... but I'm happy with FOUR solid mags. If it's accurate, I'll call it DONE. If it's not what I want, I might try turning it down a little bit.
At this point, I'm tired of working on it! I need to paint my house! lol
I may do another shot string to back up the last one, and see if it still has those random fliers. If it wasn't for those, this thing is GOOD!
Final Combination:
.22 Synrod
Marmot Militia Hammer Forged Barrel
Lane Regulator set at 130 Barr (1885 psi)
Hill Valve
Hill 0.187" poly TP
Barrel NOT drilled out. These come around 0.160", I believe.
WAR TSS with stock outer and long inner spring
Rocker1 39.5 gram MDS Hammer
3100 psi fill pressure
40 shots at around 885 fps w/18.1 grain JSBs
No, if you are happy I'm happy for you. Nothing like just going and enjoying it for a while to see how she does in reality after all the work you have put into it. If your reg is set to 130 bar (1885psi), that means you came off the reg around shot 35-36 and still got a few decent shots after that which means you have a good balance set up between the hammer and ports. If anything, If were mine, I would drop on down to 860 to 870 for even more shots. I find with my own Synrod that 30 FPE is good enough for most any .22 cal work even out to 50 yards and beyond on small game. You will find that when you have pin-point accuracy the gun is even more capable than you think. You have the .25 for bigger game and longer ranges. I messed up on the ES, you really got a 2.22% ES for 40 shots which is awesome for long range shooting.
I wouldn't worry too much about the valve springs used. It's all a balance between the fill/operating pressure, ports and the hammer energy applied to them. You are really working with the set point pressure, but do want to stay focused also when off reg too for the highest usable shot count possible. Looks like you are good there.
The higher peaks may have come from a longer delay between shots that allowed the pressure in the reg to stabilize more or could be a dirty hammer or hammer spring issue or dirty barrel issue. It's hard for me to say. I would stick with the JSB and AA pellets and not use any others except for maybe the predators. Those AA 16gr are really accurate in my HF barrel and I don't retune for them when shooting from my 18gr tune either. Also keep that barrel clean and pellets lubed and you will have a real shooter that will be hard to compete against.
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Messed with it a little more. It's easy to swap springs around, so I installed the short inner spring, and had more variation than I wanted. I then installed the longer inner spring again with more main spring gap to turn it down a bit, hit the hammer tube and springs with a little dry moly graphite, and tried that. Shot count increased DRAMATICALLY. Velocities are very consistent, except for random LOW values, where speeds drop by 20-30 fps. But, here is the shot string. Over six mags.
What can be causing those random drops in velocities?
3100 psi - 1600 psi
1. 855
2. 877
3. 883
4. 880
5. 849
6. 878
7. 875
8. 859
9. 880
10. 872
11. 876
12. 862
13. 856
14. 852
15. 881
16. 883
17. 886
18. 880
19. 844
20. 880
21. 881
22. 877
23. 880
24. 884
25. 878
26. 884
27. 877
28. 870
29. 882
30. 883
31. 868
32. 880
33. 866
34. 889
35. 868
36. 879
37. 880
38. 884
39. 881
40. 862
41. 884
42. 884
43. 891
44. 878
45. 891
46. 854
47. 884
48. 884
49. 874
50. 867
51. 875
52. 865
53. 878
54. 872
55. 878
56. 862
57. 883
58. 859
59. 863
60. 847
61. 858
62. 867
63. 873
64. 869
65. 861
66. 833
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My guess is you are shooting out in the heat which expands the air for added shots and causing inconsistency too. But I'm also guessing more so that your hammer strike is inconsistent as well. Another guess is you don't have a gap on the two springs and the light inner is changing forces maybe even with temps. I like using a stronger inner spring which holds its tension better for consistency.
P.S. Pellet variations will play a roll too.
Also, check your springs for one hanging up on the other or on the end cap adjustments. You can bend the inner spring ends inwards for a smoother slide within the primary spring. I like using a stronger 14.8lb spring for the inner. This allows me to create a gap on both springs much easier. I cut the inner spring a 1/4" shorter or so than the primary spring and then I have more control and can ease it inward to adjust the velocity. I don't use much of the inner spring so cocking isn't an issue. I also have cut a coil off the primary if I need more gap or to make the adjuster flush on the end cap. I don't like it to be protruding out.
Make sure the MDS lug is not overtightened. I have experienced both of mine getting distorted when doing so and the brass insert will change too with temp changes causing some drag on the inner walls. Just snug on the lug fixed mine.
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Man, that looks really good. Are you making a really quick followup shot once in a while and the regulator is catching up?
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My guess is you are shooting out in the heat which expands the air for added shots and causing inconsistency too. But I'm also guessing more so that your hammer strike is inconsistent as well. Another guess is you don't have a gap on the two springs and the light inner is changing forces maybe even with temps. I like using a stronger inner spring which holds its tension better for consistency.
No, shooting inside in the air conditioning. I have the chrono in front of a big metal pellet trap... sitting on the dining room table... on top of a table cloth, so nothing gets scratched up. ;D
Also, check your springs for one hanging up on the other or on the end cap adjustments. You can bend the inner spring ends inwards for a smoother slide within the primary spring. I like using a stronger 14.8lb spring for the inner. This allows me to create a gap on both springs much easier. I cut the inner spring a 1/4" shorter or so than the primary spring and then I have more control and can ease it inward to adjust the velocity. I don't use much of the inner spring so cocking isn't an issue. I also have cut a coil off the primary if I need more gap or to make the adjuster flush on the end cap. I don't like it to be protruding out.
That would be something to look into. Could see if the springs are hanging up.
Make sure the MDS lug is not overtightened. I have experienced both of mine getting distorted when doing so and the brass insert will change too with temp changes causing some drag on the inner walls. Just snug on the lug fixed mine.
That could definitely be something to look into, as I just ran it in pretty tight, and check it out all that closely. I'll look and see if any of the threads from the Allen screw are hanging down. But, the MDS hammer slides back and forth very easily.
Was also wondering if I could have a sporadic air leak...
Man, that looks really good. Are you making a really quick followup shot once in a while and the regulator is catching up?
As for giving the regulator time to charge... I make a shot, write down the velocity, and make the next shot. Maybe 5-10 seconds.
Gun seems like it wants to shoot in the high 870's to low-mid 880's... unless that bug bites, and it shoots 850's to low 860's! It's annoying!!!
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Messed with it a little more. It's easy to swap springs around, so I installed the short inner spring, and had more variation than I wanted. I then installed the longer inner spring again with more main spring gap to turn it down a bit, hit the hammer tube and springs with a little dry moly graphite, and tried that. Shot count increased DRAMATICALLY. Velocities are very consistent, except for random LOW values, where speeds drop by 20-30 fps. But, here is the shot string. Over six mags.
What can be causing those random drops in velocities?
3100 psi - 1600 psi
1. 855
2. 877
3. 883
4. 880
5. 849
6. 878
7. 875
8. 859
9. 880
10. 872
11. 876
12. 862
13. 856
14. 852
15. 881
16. 883
17. 886
18. 880
19. 844
20. 880
21. 881
22. 877
23. 880
24. 884
25. 878
26. 884
27. 877
28. 870
29. 882
30. 883
31. 868
32. 880
33. 866
34. 889
35. 868
36. 879
37. 880
38. 884
39. 881
40. 862
41. 884
42. 884
43. 891
44. 878
45. 891
46. 854
47. 884
48. 884
49. 874
50. 867
51. 875
52. 865
53. 878
54. 872
55. 878
56. 862
57. 883
58. 859
59. 863
60. 847
61. 858
62. 867
63. 873
64. 869
65. 861
66. 833
You might be getting the pressure tube too cooland causing the MDS hammer to stick. I would go back into gun and clean and ball hone pressure tube again and run NO lube at all. Also On war valves if you run to much graphite powder it will get pushed between valve stem and seat and cause sticking.
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Hey n2oMike, triggertreat, ackuric, et all, thanks for this thread!
Giving me ideas, mods to try.
Thanks again!
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Great improvement so far Mike! That is a HUGE jump. As I said don't give up till you're around 50-60 shots at 29-31 fpe IMO. Looks like you listened and knew you could squeeze more out of it, and you did!
The other comments on hammer strike effecting your current ES seems very plausible and I would heed everyone's advice on that.
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Just did another string with no changes... Had 2-3 dip below 870, 859 being the worst, but most were in the low-mid 880's. Shot 70 was still 864! LOL Can't believe this thing has such a long shot string! I'm going to run a bore snake through the barrel a couple times, then post one more shot string. Hopefully, it's working those fliers out of its system.
3100 to 1500 psi for 70 shots, with an average of around 880 fps using JSB 18.1 grain pellets.
Cannot believe it will stretch SEVEN usable mags out of a single fill!
Hammer seems to fit plenty loose, so I don't 'think' it's getting stuck in there.
Definitely no hammer bounce going on!
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Just did another string with no changes... Had 2-3 dip below 870, 859 being the worst, but most were in the low-mid 880's. Shot 70 was still 864! LOL Can't believe this thing has such a long shot string! I'm going to run a bore snake through the barrel a couple times, then post one more shot string. Hopefully, it's working those fliers out of its system.
3100 to 1500 psi for 70 shots, with an average of around 880 fps using JSB 18.1 grain pellets.
Cannot believe it will stretch SEVEN usable mags out of a single fill!
Hammer seems to fit plenty loose, so I don't 'think' it's getting stuck in there.
Definitely no hammer bounce going on!
Great news! That is very impressive and certainly can't ask for much more. Should be around 1.7 FPE/CI which is a HUGE jump from before. If you wanted to run it at around 840-850 fps I bet you could squeeze in an 8th magazine :)
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Well, so much for trying to use a Bore Snake to clean the barrel! After I cut the end off enough to fit in the breech, it wasn't heavy enough to slide through the barrel. Oh well, got to buy a new Bore Snake! lol
Might be something to the gun getting cold from too many 'back to back' shots. I was going pretty fast through my fourth mag, and the last couple dipped down a bit. Also happened once in the 6th mag, but I slowed down, warmed the air tube up with my hand, and it recovered. Go figure. Overall, without those three fliers, I think the gun did amazing! I accidentally loaded a pellet with a seriously deformed skirt, but it was the fastest shot out of the entire string. lol
Anyway, I went through 7 mags, and got 6 good ones out of it. To me, shot count isn't THAT big of a deal. If I'm guaranteed SIX solid mags out of a .22 at this energy, I'm a happy man! Plus, I don't pump anymore... so I just going for maximum velocity that will also shoot accurately. :)
Anyway, at the end of 7 mags, the pressure went from 3100 - 1500 psi Please ignore the last half of the 7th mag. lol
1. 874
2. 883
3. 874
4. 875
5. 876
6. 879
7. 875
8. 883
9. 881
10. 880
11. 872
12. 878
13. 883
14. 885
15. 872
16. 882
17. 883
18. 879
19. 884
20. 879
21. 874
22. 877
23. 879
24. 886
25. 885
26. 883
27. 873
28. 885
29. 880
30. 884
31. 880
32. 885
33. 880
34. 888
35. 880
36. 881
37. 886
38. 881
39. 860
40. 862
41. 884
42. 884
43. 884
44. 872
45. 884
46. 883
47. 885
48. 877
49. 880
50. 884
51. 881
52. 891
53. 881
54. 886
55. 881
56. 889
57. 881
58. 865
59. 881
60. 881
61. 878 Falling off the regulator in this mag.
62. 877
63. 869
64. 875
65. 868
66. 866
67. 862
68. 860
69. 856
70. 847
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Now that is an awesome 68 shot string.!
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Color me impressed for count, WOW ... tho a tad too lumpy in ES with those 860's in the mix mag #4
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You might be getting the pressure tube too cooland causing the MDS hammer to stick. I would go back into gun and clean and ball hone pressure tube again and run NO lube at all. Also On war valves if you run to much graphite powder it will get pushed between valve stem and seat and cause sticking.
I took the gun back apart. Honed the hammer tube again, made sure the hammer wasn't binding, didn't tighten the Allen screw too tight... and even ground a little length off the threads, as they barely protruded past the brass in the hammer. Burnished the springs on the wire wheel, and hand rubbed Moly Disulfide dry powder into the hammer, hammer tube and springs. No real excess. Hammer works SLICK. Went ahead and drilled out the holes bigger in the front shroud mount/spacer as well.
Put it all back together... and same thing. A bunch of good shots, followed by the occasional flier that is off 20-30 fps. I am beyond annoyed with this thing.
I tried the 0.160" TP with no luck. For some reason, it just doesn't want to seal. I then tried the softer plastic TP that came with the WAR valve. Same thing. The WAR TP is longer and softer than the Hill unit, so if there was a sealing problem, I hoped that would take care of it. No real difference.
Pressure gauge quit working as well, so that needs replaced. While it's depressurized, I may take the valve and regulator apart to see if they've picked up some silicone grease or something, that is making them stick.
I'm at a loss... but I'm DONE with this thing for the night. Getting too aggravated.
With the time, parts and attention to detail in this gun... I would HOPE that it would have no more than a 15-20 fps variance throughout the first few mags. Most shots are well within that... except for the odd fliers.
If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears!
Thanks
Oh, Travis... I have two of your 58 gram MDS hammers. On one, the brass fell out of the nylon part. Any particular way they should be adhered back together? Thanks.
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You might be getting the pressure tube too cooland causing the MDS hammer to stick. I would go back into gun and clean and ball hone pressure tube again and run NO lube at all. Also On war valves if you run to much graphite powder it will get pushed between valve stem and seat and cause sticking.
I took the gun back apart. Honed the hammer tube again, made sure the hammer wasn't binding, didn't tighten the Allen screw too tight... and even ground a little length off the threads, as they barely protruded past the brass in the hammer. Burnished the springs on the wire wheel, and hand rubbed Moly Disulfide dry powder into the hammer, hammer tube and springs. No real excess. Hammer works SLICK. Went ahead and drilled out the holes bigger in the front shroud mount/spacer as well.
Put it all back together... and same thing. A bunch of good shots, followed by the occasional flier that is off 20-30 fps. I am beyond annoyed with this thing.
I tried the 0.160" TP with no luck. For some reason, it just doesn't want to seal. I then tried the softer plastic TP that came with the WAR valve. Same thing. The WAR TP is longer and softer than the Hill unit, so if there was a sealing problem, I hoped that would take care of it. No real difference.
Pressure gauge quit working as well, so that needs replaced. While it's depressurized, I may take the valve and regulator apart to see if they've picked up some silicone grease or something, that is making them stick.
I'm at a loss... but I'm DONE with this thing for the night. Getting too aggravated.
With the time, parts and attention to detail in this gun... I would HOPE that it would have no more than a 15-20 fps variance throughout the first few mags. Most shots are well within that... except for the odd fliers.
If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears!
Thanks
Oh, Travis... I have two of your 58 gram MDS hammers. On one, the brass fell out of the nylon part. Any particular way they should be adhered back together? Thanks.
Mike just send the defective hammer back I will replace it or refund you no problem. As for the fliers if you have to much free flight Ive seen this happen. tomorrow when your brain has time to unwind call me and I will walk you threw how I would set it up and Im sure you will eliminate those fliers.
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Mike just send the defective hammer back I will replace it or refund you no problem. As for the fliers if you have to much free flight Ive seen this happen. tomorrow when your brain has time to unwind call me and I will walk you threw how I would set it up and Im sure you will eliminate those fliers.
Sounds great! Thanks!
I'll send the hammer, along with the .25 bolts that need turned down!
Thanks again!
Mike
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I read on the WAR section in this forum about removing the inner adjuster, and just running the outer to adjust both springs in unison... so I tried it.
3100 - 1600 psi for 60 shots. Unsorted pellets fired from the magazine.
Out of the 50 shots on the regulator...
38 of the 50 are within a 6 fps spread. (883 - 888)
43 of the 50 are within a 12 fps spread (880 - 891)
49 of the 50 are within a 17 fps spread (874 - 891)
50 of the 50 are within a 33 fps spread (859 - 891)
So, the gun is shooting really well... except for that ONE flier. Don't know if the gun is fixed, and that one shot was a fluke... or if there is still an occasional gremlin hiding in there. lol
1. 887
2. 891
3. 883
4. 887
5. 885
6. 894
7. 887
8. 888
9. 884
10. 885
11. 890
12. 876
13. 886
14. 874
15. 877
16. 884
17. 883
18. 888
19. 886
20. 885
21. 893
22. 888
23. 878
24. 885
25. 885
26. 887
27. 885
28. 859
29. 883
30. 883
31. 886
32. 880
33. 891
34. 884
35. 883
36. 886
37. 887
38. 884
39. 886
40. 885
41. 876
42. 885
43. 882
44. 884
45. 888
46. 887
47. 883
48. 886
49. 888
50. 884
51. 878 (falling off the regulator this mag)
52. 887
53. 866
54. 876
55. 873
56. 874
57. 868
58. 865
59. 855
60. 861