GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: rsterne on June 01, 2017, 11:04:53 PM
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I have been working with NOE on a series of moulds for pellets, and they have just released the first batch.... Here is a photo.... The pellets have a fairly large meplat, designed to hit hard....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/NOE%20Bobs%20Boattails/NOE%2025%20cal%2032%20gr_zpsmxy5wua8.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/NOE%20Bobs%20Boattails/NOE%2025%20cal%2032%20gr_zpsmxy5wua8.jpg.html)
Al sent me a dozen to have a look at and measure, and I am very pleased with the results.... They cast VERY nicely in pure lead.... They use their RG style pin arrangement, and they supply three lengths of pins so that you can cast 3 different weights, about 2 gr. apart in the case of these .25 cal pellets.... The ones Al sent me were the lightest, with the deepest base cavity.... The moulds are nose pour, and I weighed the pellets and they varied between 32.0 - 32.5 gr. averaging 32.2 gr (they were designed at 33 gr.).... For comparision I weighed the same number of JSB King Heavy Mk.IIs, and they also varied 1/2 gr., between 34.1 - 34.6 gr., averaging 34.3 gr.... I fired a few through the Chrony using my Hatsan, tethered at 200 bar.... The JSBs averaged 930 fps, and the NOEs averaged 955 fps, just about right for the weight difference.... The pellets measure 0.250" at the head and 0.258" at the skirt, which is the same as the JSB Mk IIs.... The mid length pin pellets should weigh about the same as the King Heavies, and the short pin should produce pellets about a couple of grains heavier....
Al has been working on these moulds for a long time, getting them to pour and drop properly, and be dimensionally correct, and I must say they are GORGEOUS.... Moulds are available in two or four cavity, and are now available in the NOE Store.... http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=374_376_483 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=374_376_483) .... The skirt diameter is shown on the drawing, but Al omitted the head diameter, which is 0.250".... I will advise him so that he can clarify that on the drawing.... You guys have been asking for a mould to cast your own pellets.... NOE listened, and they plan to make .30 cal, .357, and .45 cal moulds as well.... scaled up from this .25 cal....
Bob
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Thanks for getting this done for us Bob. You're a good guy, no matter what they say. ;)
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Great job on that pellets Bob...do you have any accuracy test to show us?
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Nope, I only had enough pellets to weigh, measure, and shoot through my Chrony....
Bob
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"dang" good news... This is tempting to buy a .25 rifle and start molding ... Thanks
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Well now I've got a problem. I can't decide whether my next purchase for my TalonP should be the NOE pellet or 253-42 BBT mold. My RCBS .25-50-RN 251 casts too small for my TalonP and I've been experimenting with "Beagling" up the castings but so far, the results have not improved accuracy.
Some of the BBT design features address problems that I've thought about but the more airgun-conventional pellet might end up shooting better from my choked 1:17.7 LW barrel. I might buy a new 24" LW barrel, turn some new barrel blocks, and fit it up. I'd could cut it in half and try both the choked and non-choked sections for about as good an A/B comparison as possible. I'd really like to crack the code on shooting both pellets and slugs well from the same barrel, though.
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OW YAAAAA!!!!!! Sexy looking pellets...Order made. No more pass threws just SPLAT factor.
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The big question is are they going to be accurate. Nick has been trying for a long time to get the pellet molds to work and so far no luck. They look good but won't shoot good.
Would be nice to cast them though. I have shot a few thousand .30's into my trap so far.
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Ill give a honest review of how they shoot as soon as I get the mold and cast them up.
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The big question is are they going to be accurate. Nick has been trying for a long time to get the pellet molds to work and so far no luck. They look good but won't shoot good.
Yup! When it comes to molds, there are so many process and technique variations that can make a huge difference. And then there's the problem that what's perfect for one gun can be accuracy poison for another. A long track record of many customer reviews is necessary to reduce risk in buying a new mold (or even a tin of pellets).
BTW, I'm getting very nice looking Beagled (mold halves shimmed .004" apart with aluminum tape strips) RCBS pellets in pure lead right now (they resize to about .253 +/-0005 oval-ness. Beagling doesn't result in as much pre-resizing oval shape as you might guess, but there's still some oval that persists after resizing. Partly this is due to the driving band lead getting pressed into the lube groove when resized, rather than going into make the driving bands rounder.
My hunch is with Bob; the distortion in flat base, non-gas-checked slugs from the rifling reduces accuracy. In PB rifles, we don't see it, because we tend to use gas checks. In PB handguns, we don't see it, because we don't shoot them all that accurately! ;) Diabolo pellets and BBT slugs don't have the problem nearly as much as a flat base slug.
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Bob I got my molds in and they look fantastic but I miss placed my handles what mold handles do you recommend for these molds.
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I just ordered the mold, I've got quite a collection of pure lead that through the years I've found with my metal detector. The best source I've found for the dug up lead that I've gotten is old sewer pipe, it's the best for my muzzle loaders which also require pure lead. I'll definitely be writing a thread on these pellets once I get some good ones molded. Very cool!!! 8)
This mold won't take long at all to pay for itself, the only thing that going to cost me now to shoot my .25 will be air from my tanks, technically I don't have to even spend that, then the only thing that's going to cost money is the electricity for my Lee melter ;)
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Bob I got my molds in and they look fantastic but I miss placed my handles what mold handles do you recommend for these molds.
I use a pair of Lee 6 cavity handles with my NOE mold.
Hurry up and let us know how they shoot.
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Yep, Lee 6 cavity handles is what I use....
Bob
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I've got the Lyman handles I use for the double cavity 451 ball for my 6 guns and also a mold for my 58 cal mini ball mold. I wonder if these handles will work, they seem plenty big.
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I've got the Lyman handles I use for the double cavity 451 ball for my 6 guns and also a mold for my 58 cal mini ball mold. I wonder if these handles will work, they seem plenty big.
Those won't fit ifI recal correctly, holes don't mach.. RCBS,Lee and NOE's own handles will work
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I see on their website they build moulds from brass and aluminum, looks like these will be aluminum because they're not marked brass.
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Seeing he will be making other sizes a .257 pellet mold would be nice.
They sure would be great in a 14" PRod barrel
Norm
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Norm, NOE can easily cut a larger diameter, using the same tool (they just interpolate the circle larger in the mill to increase the diam.), but unless they make larger RG pins for the hollow base, the skirt thickness would increase.... Also, you would have to get this done while a production run is happening, or there might be an extra charge for a one-of.... Since the head of the existing pellets is large enough to bore-ride the lands in a .257, and the skirt large enough to engage the grooves, I would try some of the current diameter before going the custom route.... Tom at AAA found that .30 cal JSBs work fine in a .308 barrel, so stranger things have happened....
Bob
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I hope these work I have made 3 pellets for 45 caliber and none of them worked that great. I got about the same or slightly better than the current JSB pellet in 45 cal and that don't cut it. I have given up on diabolo to focus on other designs.
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I think the big advantage to Diabolo is that they work well in choked barrels, or at least better than many slugs do.... The will never have the BC possible with a bullet, however.... It's just one more alternative for guys to try, and something they can make instead of buying ammo.... which is what some want....
The more designs we have available the better, and I'm delighted that you are having great success producing ammo for those who want to "reach out" further.... Swaging, or mass producing cast ammo with a casting machine.... is well beyond the ability of the average shooter.... so having the ability to buy ammo that is ready-to-go is wonderful, IMO....
Bob
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Has anyone gotten one of these pellet molds?
If so I would like to purchase some pellets to see how accurate they are in my 25 cal PRod with a 14" MRod barrel.
If they are good I am thinking of getting into bullet casting but do not want to invest in all that equipment before knowing if the pellets will work for me
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Has anyone gotten one of these pellet molds?
If so I would like to purchase some pellets to see how accurate they are in my 25 cal PRod with a 14" MRod barrel.
If they are good I am thinking of getting into bullet casting but do not want to invest in all that equipment before knowing if the pellets will work for me
I have the mold and Im waiting on my handles to arrive, they should be here today so Ill get some groups on paper very soon and report back.
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My mold got here today, I checked the handles that I have but they're press fit and I don't want to destroy the molds just for the handle so I ordered a pair of Lee handles on ebay today.
Travis I'll be looking forward to your results, should be interesting, especially since I can't start molding til my handles get here, ebay stuff usually comes fast.
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The suspense is killing me....can't wait to hear y'alls results.
Phil
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Rick shot the 33.2 today and it was a shotgun blast pattern. The 35.2 did well at 30 yards.. looked like 10 shots under a dime. He is testing the 37.2 tomorrow if the weather cooperates and will send pictures to post. I think the twist is 17.5 in the puncher pro... I think.
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The reason for the three base pins was so that guys could play with the CG to find the optimum for their gun.... I'm not surprised that there is a difference in the groups.... It will be interesting when we get more data to see if one weight consistently has better accuracy, or if it varies from gun to gun....
Bob
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My mold came with the lightest pins installed which is cool because that was the one I was going to start out with ;)
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The multiple pins is a good idea to see if you can find the right balance. I tried several pins with my 45 cal and could never find an acceptable combo, they were just OK. I tried fatter/thinner pins, longer/shorter pins, etc to change the balance. Eventually I just said scr*w it because I spent too much time and money for one product.
I may reconsider if a good solution is found so I am in real hopes for this to work.
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The multiple pins is a good idea to see if you can find the right balance. I tried several pins with my 45 cal and could never find an acceptable combo, they were just OK. I tried fatter/thinner pins, longer/shorter pins, etc to change the balance. Eventually I just said scr*w it because I spent too much time and money for one product.
I may reconsider if a good solution is found so I am in real hopes for this to work.
I think the balance statement is true. Rick tried all three pallets today at 40 yards they all opened up like a shotgun. Maybe someone will have better luck
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I can't figure it out. It may be the head shape, mine were shaped similar to these. Perhaps a more round shape on the head?
I have some of Rick's cast slugs and they are good quality so I am confident it is not the casting quality. Like I said I gave up on mine but I am always on the look for someone who has an answer, I wish I did.
My thoughts are it is either the head shape or the angle relationship between the head and body of skirt.
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I cast up a bunch of the 33s today and had pretty good results as long as I weighed every pellet before shooting. Some looked great but weighed light and shot all over the place so I used really hot pot temp and kept mold on hot plate after this I had good results and pretty good accuracy. Ill Do some more testing tomorrow time permitting but just make sure you weigh them before shooting its super critical like I said they can look fine but be off due to the skirt not forming fully.
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Thanks Travis .. I passed your post along to Rick. Hopefully it will make a difference for him.
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Once a person has some experience molding they'll realize that everything has to be hot for good results. I've always had good results using a ladle myself, I just put the ladle on top of the molten lead (once it's up to temp) between pours. I use a Lee open pot I bought years ago but it still works really good. I have a 6x6x1/2 piece of pine I initially drop the bullets on from the mold for initial cooling (pure lead is very soft) and it helps a lot for less deformation of the bullets(pellets in this case). Usually I'll do several pours just getting the mold up to temp before they start molding nicely and remelt the first several pours. I'll try doing a video pouring with my ladle once I get the show on the road ;)
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Once a person has some experience molding they'll realize that everything has to be hot for good results. I've always had good results using a ladle myself, I just put the ladle on top of the molten lead (once it's up to temp) between pours. I use a Lee open pot I bought years ago but it still works really good. I have a 6x6x1/2 piece of pine I initially drop the bullets on from the mold for initial cooling (pure lead is very soft) and it helps a lot for less deformation of the bullets(pellets in this case). Usually I'll do several pours just getting the mold up to temp before they start molding nicely and remelt the first several pours. I'll try doing a video pouring with my ladle once I get the show on the road ;)
I used a ladle also that was also kept on the hot plate. Its really important especially with poring a good cast with the thin skirt pellets to have everything really hot. Tomorrow ill shoot some groups onpaper hopefully and post pics.
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Hey guy's ,,, I made a bunch of these in all three weight's ,, and they were between .33.2 to 33.4 it was like this for all three weights ,, so I started @ 30 yards , and,they were all over the place , at first I though it might be my gun ((kral puncher pro)) but it wasn't the jsb pellets stacked up in one ragged hole . I think they need to redesign the head of the pellet , more like the jsb,, I took a handful of the jsb king heavy and filed the head until I got a small flat measuring .150 and it had no affect on accuracy at all , I had two 9mm pellet molds made it that way, 84 grain and 97 grain, and both are really accurate ..
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Hey guy's ,,, I made a bunch of these in all three weight's ,, and they were between .33.2 to 33.4 it was like this for all three weights ,, so I started @ 30 yards , and,they were all over the place , at first I though it might be my gun ((kral puncher pro)) but it wasn't the jsb pellets stacked up in one ragged hole . I think they need to redesign the head of the pellet , more like the jsb,, I took a handful of the jsb king heavy and filed the head until I got a small flat measuring .150 and it had no affect on accuracy at all , I had two 9mm pellet molds made it that way, 84 grain and 97 grain, and both are really accurate ..
Try them in a gun with a choked barrel.
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Hey Travis, you got an Airforce gun that you can try them in? That's the only 25 I have and if they showed promise, I might order one. Sounds like a touch of tin might help filling out a little better. Just a touch won't make them so hard that they won't shoot.
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I tried the light ones today, not good all over the place, I'll just melt them all down and try the next ones with the heavier (middle pin). Maybe tomorrow. I'm using the Mrod with the green mountain barrel and it's choked
I weighed the 16 shots that I did the shooting with, I'm not even going to bother putting them over the chrony
32.74 32.58
33.08 32.36
32.72 32.46
33 32.66
32.78 32.52
32.32 32.94
33.34 32.80
32.80 32.58
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Those little pellets with skirts are going to be tricky to cast.
Heating the blocks, and pins, is a given. With only 135 grains of molten lead going into the mold, I would use a 20 lb bottom pour pot, run the pot HOT, and leave a very generous sprue to keep the mold temp up.
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Also You can heat pins on blowtorch between pours...I think that is critical issue to get those pins hot as possible
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I think that on the next batch that I'm going to use a hotplate for the mold like Travis did, I don't think it's staying quite hot enough just laying it across the top of the pot to warm up. I've get a hot plate that I never use for anything, now I have a use for it . . . . cool 8)
If there was a secondary swage die made for these pellets it might make a considerable difference in the way they perform too.
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I think that on the next batch that I'm going to use a hotplate for the mold like Travis did, I don't think it's staying quite hot enough just laying it across the top of the pot to warm up. I've get a hot plate that I never use for anything, now I have a use for it . . . . cool 8)
If there was a secondary swage die made for these pellets it might make a considerable difference in the way they perform too.
The swage die, do you mean for forming the skirt, or bringing the diameter up?
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Mark I'm thinking maybe a swage die for rounding off the nose of the pellet to a dome rather than flat like it is from where the sprue is sheered off. My skirts seem to be forming good.
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A while back I wanted to try shooting pellets from a .308 barrel, and when I pushed through a JSB 44.8 gr. it had barely any rifling marks on it (.30 cal airgun barrels are 0.300" bore, not 0.308").... I made a tapered anvil for the skirt that I could put a pellet on and slide the other die half over and tap it with a hammer.... The flat on the inside of the die creasted a Meplat and forced the skirt, and head, to expand a bit....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Big%20Bore/IMG_3180_zpsb4865488.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Big%20Bore/IMG_3180_zpsb4865488.jpg.html)
Once I found the correct spacing between the tapered anvil and the front punch (the die was adjustable), the pellets came out extremely consistent on diameter, with a nicely formed Meplat on the front.... as in the photo below.... There is a formed pellet sitting on the mandrel....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Big%20Bore/IMG_3181_zps5e712afb.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Big%20Bore/IMG_3181_zps5e712afb.jpg.html)
The two pellets on the right show a stock JSB (R) and one of the ones bumped up to .308 cal, that were pushed through the .308 barrel.... You will notice the difference in length.... and you can clearly see the much better rifling engagement on the shorter, enlarged one.... The reason I bring this up, is that I have experimented with pellets with a Meplat on them, and found the Meplat had no affect on the accuracy.... The Meplat did, however, make a big difference to the performance when fired into a block of soap.... The pellet with the Meplat produced a larger diameter wound channel, and penetrated less.... ie it dumped its energy quicker.... not as fast as a hollowpoint, but significantly better than a round nose.... That is reason I designed the pellets with a Meplat, although it is also, of course necessary for a nose-pour mold, which is required to make the hollow skirt cavity.... I don't think the Meplat is creating an accuracy issue, if there is a problem (and we won't know until the heavier weights are tested), IMO it must be something else....
Bob
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I would like to read any speculation on why this design does not shoot well.
Is it diameter?
Because it is difficult to cast?
Shape?
Length, and could be better with a faster rifling twist?
Because the front bearing area is to close to the center?
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I haven't seen the drawing but just looking at the pellets in the pic they look nose heavy. I was shooting some 33 gr jsb thru chrony yesterday and the skirt is not as hollow.
Hard to say. I'm sure it's a front to back weight thing though.
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I'm kind of thinking along the same lines as being nose heavy too. I'll try making the heaviest ones today instead
of the middle weight to fill the tail of the pellet, hopefully it will balance it out some ???
Here is a comparison between the molded ones and the JSB 33.95 MKII
(http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae312/giant056/Airgun%20pics/pelletcomparrison.jpg)
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Yeah that would be the problem. I think pellets are more fussy then bullets on the weight distribution.
How different is the depth of the skirt?
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Well I've been on the fence about getting into casting once again and when I saw this topic I was ready to jump in. Many many years ago I did a lot of casting of bullets and round balls for myself and friends who also had muzzle loaders. I enjoyed it very much but when all the new muzzle loader ammo came out I phased myself out of casting.
So after seeing Noe's new mold for 25 gr pellets I began looking at the items I would need to get back into it and had my shopping cart already to press purchase when I began reading about the poor accuracy with these pellets.
I am now on hold to see what happens!
Norm
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Doug, there are three different pins supplied for the hollow base.... That allows you to vary the weight and the CG, without changing the outside shape.... The drawing below is for the .30 cal, with the dimensions shown for the other calibers.... It is simply scaled up or down....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/NOE%20Bobs%20Boattails/30%20cal%20Pellet%20Master_zps31r5zzln.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/NOE%20Bobs%20Boattails/30%20cal%20Pellet%20Master_zps31r5zzln.jpg.html)
Guys had been asking for heavier pellets with a Meplat to have increased impact on game.... so that is what I tried to provide.... I am still hopeful that the heavier ones will have better accuracy, with the CG further back.... If that doesn't work, then my guess would be that the nose is too long, ahead of the front contact point with the barrel....
Bob
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I measured the back of a 33 gr .25 and the skirt is only .058" deep. On a 44 gr it's is .150" deep.
Anyway to figure out the CG of the JSB'S and keep it close to what they are? Shallower skirts to bring the weight back.
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The three skirt lengths are shown on that .30 cal drawing.... The shallowest is 0.050" and the deepest is 0.150", on the .25 cal pellets.... similar to the range of the JSBs.... which makes perfect sense, as I used JSBs as a reference for my design where applicable (skirt and angles).... The only real difference is the nose, which is longer and heavier....
Bob
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Thanks for posting your thoughts.
This design is very similar to what I would have gotten cutting a mold with the cutter I have been working on.
The angles are different, but the length and location of front bearing surface are very close.
I my mind's eye, this design is a thing of beauty.
But if it won't shoot well, it must be time to start on a new cutter.
I was not going to use pins in the mold to form a hollow base, but scheming on making a clamshell swage die to form the base.
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well I wish for more $ just so I could try my idea... if Al would be able to mod this mold after it is already cut... I think the long wide meplat nose wants to be more H&N Sniper Med/MAG like..?
... I think a shallow waist will help...
So modded the drawings for a .200 waist and a .210 waist drawings bellow..? watcha think..?
Maybe even slightly easier to pour good skirts...
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I molded and tried both of the heavier ones today, they both grouped a little tighter than the light ones but then I put some H&N's on a dot next to the heaviest dots for mold pellets, it was just a ragged hole at 20 yards, both of the heavier ones grouped at about and inch and a half. I recovered some of the pellets and they're catching the rifling really good but that isn't making them very accurate.
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Wayne, could you post a closeup photo of some fired pellets, please.... along with info on what barrel you used....
Kirby, I looked at designs with a cylindrical waist like that, and of course the weight increases significantly, unless you shorten the pellet.... JSB seem to be going away from the cylindrical middle in their latest designs, eg. the .22 cal 34 gr. Beast.... The .22 cal 25.4 gr. cylindrical Monsters were not as accurate as the 18.2 gr. Heavies in most guns, and the 50.2 gr. cylindrical .30 cals tend not to group quite as well as the 44.8 gr. Exacts in the .30 cals.... Tat is why I was trying to stay away from the cylindrical waist design, unless required to get the weight desired.... Probably two of the most consistently accurate pellets out there are the 25.4 gr. King .25 cal and 44.8 gr. Exact .30 cal.... and they are very "conventional" looking with a narrow waist, only 71-72% of caliber.... The waist diameter on JSBs runs from as low as 66% to as high as 85%, with heavier pellets having a larger waist, of course.... The waist on the 34 gr. Exact .25 cal is 79% of caliber.... All the JSBs I have looked at have a "tuck-in" angle behind the head of about 30 deg., which is what I used.... Some have a sharp edge at the back of the head radius, while other have a narrow band at the back of the head.... I didn't bother with one, because the 1R Ogive I used tapers so slowly at the back of the head, it provides a fairly wide area to grip the rifling without one.... That is why I am interested in Wayne's photos, to examine what that area looks like....
Bob
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Murphy's law said to keep those other recovered ones but I put them back in the pot, I had plenty molded up so I put some more in the target with denim inside.
I had some better examples but these will probably do for ya Bob !
These were all really close to 36.5 grains
(http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae312/giant056/Airgun%20pics/molded%20fired%20pellets.jpg)
Also I added to the pot before I molded these, I took a chunk of an ingot I found in a cornfield with my metal detector at a spot where the use to be a farmhouse, there might even be a little tin in these, next batch I run I'll use the old sewer pipe cause it seem to work better.
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Thanks, Wayne, that is just about perfect rifling engagement, IMO.... It shows the width which engages the lands is not just a fine edge at the back of the head, but about 1mm wide or more, which is what I expected to see.... It looks like my idea on that was spot on, at least....
Bob
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Wayne, could you send me 100 or so of the heavies to test in my Storm ? of course I would pay for them.
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Or if anybody else would like to send me a sample pack ? ....just let me know how much.
thanks
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How hot are you running your pot that looks like heavy frosting... a light frosting is what I have been told is best also I see a lot of wrinkling did you clean your mold before casting..?
I also see some finning at the pellets base that indicates a sharp edged leade... but at short range not as big a prob...
head size looks about perfect could be a touch smaller I bet... so running a bit cooler should not be a prob there...
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Bob My Buc loves the .177 sniper mag cylindricals wish I knew how fast it is pushing them at...
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Bob I go by my gut and it is easy to be wrong... I feel with the 65% meplat( semi wad territory) and longer nose the more bullet like the better..
my gut likes the .210 best... sort of like a Bator/Sniper Mag hybrid.. ;) would love to see a 45g-50g .25 bator with short rebated boattail..? ;) a Bobs Bator BT or BBBT .25. :o ;)
The old .22 Benji High Comp semi wad dome also had a wider than normal waist... they did well to about 40 yards(peeps) at ~800 fps...
would it be possible with a tapered bit to mod it to a 79%(.200) waist like pic below... Might be an option..?
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Manny I can send you some but I need to get rid of the lead in my pot first, then I'll use some known really soft lead because I think the last hunk that I put in the pot had some tin in the mix. I need to get back to a woods where I stashed a bunch of old sewer pipe for future pickup, there's still quite a bit out there including the stuff still in the ground that I didn't dig up. Yes I can send you a hundred for testing when I get them molded for sure, I'll get in contact with you when I get them done.
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How hot are you running your pot that looks like heavy frosting... a light frosting is what I have been told is best also I see a lot of wrinkling did you clean your mold before casting..?
I also see some finning at the pellets base that indicates a sharp edged leade... but at short range not as big a prob...
head size looks about perfect could be a touch smaller I bet... so running a bit cooler should not be a prob there...
Kirby I bought that Lee single temp (275 watt) in probably 1975 for molding bullets for my muzzle loaders, it really seems to do a great job on them but that's a whole different story from these little pellets. I might look into buying a better one with an adjustable temp. I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it.
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I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it.
The advantage of 'bottom pour' is not really of convenience, but quality. The main thing, is that the slag floats to the top... so if you're using a ladle, you're constantly trying to scoot the thin layer of impurities out of the way to get good metal.
I use to cast balls for muzzle loaders, and used an open pot on a cheap hot plate. This worked fine for musket balls, but I can see precision pellet casting being an completely different, more complicated and tedious animal.
Good Luck!
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I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it.
The advantage of 'bottom pour' is not really of convenience, but quality. The main thing, is that the slag floats to the top... so if you're using a ladle, you're constantly trying to scoot the thin layer of impurities out of the way to get good metal.
I use to cast balls for muzzle loaders, and used an open pot on a cheap hot plate. This worked fine for musket balls, but I can see precision pellet casting being an completely different, more complicated and tedious animal.
Good Luck!
I use a ladle that pours from the bottom of the ladle to avoid that problem.
Here is an example of one:
https://www.rotometals.com/casting-ladle-bottom-pour-rowell-1-2-1-4-bowl-diameter-9-handle-length/ (https://www.rotometals.com/casting-ladle-bottom-pour-rowell-1-2-1-4-bowl-diameter-9-handle-length/)
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How hot are you running your pot that looks like heavy frosting... a light frosting is what I have been told is best also I see a lot of wrinkling did you clean your mold before casting..?
I also see some finning at the pellets base that indicates a sharp edged leade... but at short range not as big a prob...
head size looks about perfect could be a touch smaller I bet... so running a bit cooler should not be a prob there...
Kirby I bought that Lee single temp (275 watt) in probably 1975 for molding bullets for my muzzle loaders, it really seems to do a great job on them but that's a whole different story from these little pellets. I might look into buying a better one with an adjustable temp. I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it.
I got the little Lee as a present and figured try it before getting a bigger pot... it, a bottom pour ladle and a thermometer work great pouring these smaller .22 and .25 rounds for me... also if you go to a new pot you can use the old pot to rough smelt your found lead... I have only found wheel weight and a pipe sealing ring(in the neighbors back yard ::) )... still have not used the wheel weights just my recovered pellets and the ring...
The reason I brought up the fins on the skirt is one of my two .25 Mrods absolutely hated the Benji domes 1.5" at 30 yards and the other tolerated them... It also was more difficult to load the BBT 40g.. in that same rifle... took the leade down most of the way... not quite enough for the BBT(but a big improvement)... But now it likes the Benji domes almost as much as the JSB Kings... so maybe the skirts on these like the Benji domes do not like a sharp edged leade... Before pic of that barrels leade, reply 15 in below link...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121437.msg1184497#msg1184497 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121437.msg1184497#msg1184497)
I dreamed of an air rifle with 50+ fpe back in the 80s... Knew it and more was possible... and years later its here...
Now we get to work on figuring out the finer points of running cast (low and high fpe) and just what is possible... while enjoying the independence of it...
It is a bit like we are the Pneu Wildcatters ;) 8) 8)
It would be cool if Al could mod the molds and be able to produce some skirt/body variations off of one cherry... I guess could ask Eric at Hollowpoint Services also...
I know that they bore out gas checks to convert to a plain base on Molds sometime so at least the cylindrical should be possible... I will be danged if I would do it with a drill press tho...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?205278-remove-gas-check-on-an-aluminum-mold (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?205278-remove-gas-check-on-an-aluminum-mold)
I just think the more available molds/rounds to test the better... I do have about $100 left before I am strapped for a good while... Hmmm this is so addicting.. ;) even think of what I have I could sell to get my air rifle/casting challenge/fix...
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Here is the ladle that I use.
(http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae312/giant056/Airgun%20pics/ladle.jpg)
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I have only found wheel weight and a pipe sealing ring(in the neighbors back yard ::) )... still have not used the wheel weights just my recovered pellets and the ring...
What I was taught back in the day, when looking for SOFT lead to cast musket balls with... was to check it, by trying to scratch it with your thumb nail. If you can easily scratch it with your thumb nail, it was good. Wheel weights are generally too hard.
Good Luck!
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Wheel weights are definitely too hard, they say you can use them to make bullets for modern firearms but not good for muzzle loaders, I always went by being able to dent it with my thumbnail too.
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I have drawing pencils also for another rough test...
No not strait wheel weight guys :o.. as part of an alloy...to experiment with...
The hardness/strength that these things will like/tolerate depends on the rounds design and the barrel it is being sent thru...
I bet we could have thin tall drive bands or small contact patches in some pellet designs... bet could like/stand a 10-12 BHN when using a hammer forged barrel... might even tolerate a mild choke better(or not) than a design made softer with wide drive bands/contact patches....
softer barrels more towards pure Pb of course...
switching up/back a bit...
Me I wish that they would bring back the Benji .22... I tend to think that as a .25 they and even longer designs in the same vein would be very hard hitting and accurate to about mid range... they are nose heavy because they are hollow all the way to the head... that lets them button out/expand very well...
If they fall on their face after 40-50 yards well then that will help kill the B.C. and range ... safer for shooting up into the trees at squirrels n such...
Bet they would out do the .25 crow mags, Benji destroyers and such...
Inet pic cropped and enlarged below...
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Manny I can send you some but I need to get rid of the lead in my pot first, then I'll use some known really soft lead because I think the last hunk that I put in the pot had some tin in the mix. I need to get back to a woods where I stashed a bunch of old sewer pipe for future pickup, there's still quite a bit out there including the stuff still in the ground that I didn't dig up. Yes I can send you a hundred for testing when I get them molded for sure, I'll get in contact with you when I get them done.
Thanks Wayne, appreciate it ( really hope they shoot because I want to buy that mold, and the .30 cal real bad :) :) )
let me know when you ready and just tell me how much I need to send you,..thanks
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Any more progress on this?
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I shot mine again today and had no problem grouping UNTIL I turned up the power and it shot like a shot gun. I was shooting them really slow at 600fps but once I cranked it up it really started wandering. Is this a sign of too heavy a head or too long a pellet etc. Curious.
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RPMs will bring out the worst. Like inconsistent spots in the nose get really bad the faster you spin them.
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Cutting the sprue is going to throw the nose balance off no mater what you do IMO. I'm trying to figure out a way to shave the nose some without deforming the rest of the pellet, kinda hard with soft lead but I'll keep at it.
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I was going to ask what size is the sprue hole... I know he was able to go pretty small for the .22 30g BBT ~.125 or so I think... and the .25 40g BBT are about .155"
These are about the same weight as the 30g .22 so as long as the sprue plate is kept warm with a big puddle and the pin are kept warm they should fill...
if modded to cylindrical/wider waist it will have a bit more hot lead to help a touch... so it should work with the .22 sprue hole size to reduce distortion... if it is not already that size...
a couple more thoughts... the heavier the weight of the pellet the smaller by percentage is the effect of that bit of distortion and with the wider waist or cylindrical waist the loading will be more spread out so there should be less head distortion...
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I shot mine again today and had no problem grouping UNTIL I turned up the power and it shot like a shot gun. I was shooting them really slow at 600fps but once I cranked it up it really started wandering. Is this a sign of too heavy a head or too long a pellet etc. Curious.
Rich_B
"RPMs will bring out the worst. Like inconsistent spots in the nose get really bad the faster you spin them"
yep is probably part of the Problem... I think that pellets have a lot more in common with foster slugs than they do with a regular slug... I think they do actual require very little twist to work well...Pellets have less gyroscopic stability because the waist moves the weight inwards... smooth twist is one and shotguns sending a weight forward heavy pellet/ slugs is another... then there are the differences in the drag profile
the below link has a velocity plot of a foster slug at 450 fps notice that the body is flying in a low pressure zone already it will get bigger as velocity goes up towards 600-800 fps and the bigger the meplat/nose shape etc....but the pic is a good aid to visualize what a pellet does just imagine a waist... and remember that a wad-cutter nose will have supersonic flow at the edges starting at about 600fps... my point is that the pellets tail is providing less drag stabilization because of it...the rule is double the speed quadruple the drag... and we have a slightly out of balance nose that now matters more...
http://mcb-homis.com/slugcfd/slugcfd.html (http://mcb-homis.com/slugcfd/slugcfd.html)
I have head from a neighbor confirms what I have read... gets clover leafs a lot at 75 yards 2"-4" at 100 with 12 Gage K.O. Slugs... and it is just a big weight forward pellet
http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/kotm/ (http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/kotm/)
150 or so yards offhand open sight torso shots with a foster slug...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrwUxYwhJvE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrwUxYwhJvE)
Foster rpm thru one shotgun skip to about 1:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRPo19DWlZY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRPo19DWlZY)
so now thinking of pellets well the hemi nose is best for long distance... why..? I think it is partially due to the drag profile changing the least over the range of velocity... the low pressure bubble is smaller at higher velocity than semi dome, wad, and semi wad noses... so there is less shift away from drag stabilization to gyroscopic stabilization...
and when it comes to gyroscopic stabilization well the pellet can handle to much spin the best... why would that be...it is because of where the weight is...less on the outer diameter means less stabilization... the foster slug is more spin stabilized and then the solid slug is most...
So with the design of this pellet with the necessary meplat to be able to nose pour we have a pellet that as velocity increases wants more spin stabilization so just may handle the fact that we over spin it by comparison a bunch...
so now go to the drag function form and put in these numbers... link below...
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=dewc&re_calculate=yes&diameter=.250&length=.375&nose=.142&meplat=.162&drive_band=.250&base_diameter=.250&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=29&density=8 (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=dewc&re_calculate=yes&diameter=.250&length=.375&nose=.142&meplat=.162&drive_band=.250&base_diameter=.250&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=29&density=8)
Bullet diameter (inches)
.250
Bullet length (inches)
.375
Nose length (inches)
.142
Meplat diameter (inches)
.162
Drive-band diameter (inches)
.250
Base diameter (inches)
.250
Boat-tail angle (degrees)
0
Boat-tail length (inches)
0
Bullet density
11.4 gms/cc (soft lead non-jacketed)
and you get the figures for a bullet of the same nose and length as our pellet that weighs 40g... and about a 1:25 twist at 500fps...
now it is time to jigger things a bit
our pellet is about 32g... so 40 x .8 =32 so now change the density to 8 grms/cc and watch the twist rate needed rise for the same bullet at our 32g weight...
so is this a crude representation of our pellet at velocity..? it does sort of represent max twist we could possibly need to me...
so now enter those figs in the twist rate calc...
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/barrel_twist.htm (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/barrel_twist.htm)
I used 7gms/cc for a lighter pellet cause I did this first as an estimate just to see the if I was close... what I got is below...shows my 1:19 twist XL 725 barrel looks good... the twist I used was L.W. 17.7
More to say about the mold and procedures but need a break... but I do think we can improve on the performance and these can work as drawn... so yep maybe a hint of some of the why of the 600 fps speed limit..?
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Cutting the sprue is going to throw the nose balance off no mater what you do IMO. I'm trying to figure out a way to shave the nose some without deforming the rest of the pellet, kinda hard with soft lead but I'll keep at it.
I think we might be able to overcome that problem (could someone measure size the sprue hole) because looking at the marks Bobs pic(knowing the meplat is .160) it looks to have about a .140 sprue hole( I think .125-130 would be best)... hard to tell from a pic tho... also check to make sure of a nice sharp edge for cutting the sprue...
Wanye if you are getting smearing it needs to cool a touch more... I blew up the pic of your pellet an you can see some at the edge of the head...that is part of the nose getting distorted...
I was running into the same distortion with the boat tails on the BBT 30g .22 and 40g .25 at first... till I got opening timing down and it got better... Blew up and cropped a pic of Bobs pellet that shows about perfect timing, attached below...might be able to do even better... I will be trying cooling the sprue and maybe the sprue plate with a wet rag next...
I actually am surprised at the accuracy I get with the BBT with my barrel, molds and casting procedure not quite up to snuff yet...
I think that aluminum is the right mold material for these small rounds but that means that the mold is heating up and cooling down much faster than the sprue plate... so the hottest part of the mold is the part we need cool to not distort the nose...
so yeah trying a wet rag just might help minimize nose/base distortion... and I think it is the biggest problem we face with getting accuracy...Mountain molds had the base distortion on his flat base .30 pellet mold he was developing... wrong mold material, to thick of a sprue plate and to big a sprue hole...IMO... In below thread you can see the pulling away at the far side of the mold... might as well toss any like that back in the melt and change procedures or mold cause they will not shoot well...
https://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=195 (https://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=195)
attention to detail is needed to develop these ... I know I need to better my attention to detail casting the BBT...
For consistency sake and to help re heat the cooled/cold sprue plate that needs to be hot for good fill out I am going to make a small mold oven... out of something like an old metal electrical box upside down with a BBQ/oven thermometer and a hole to get the mold in... will sit on top of the hotplate...probably will set the mold sprue side down... will help to have consistent mold temp to get more consistent size and weight which of course is important to accuracy...
I think it is way to early to call it the designs fault...I do think being a small caliber it will be more of a challenge to get right... I suggest the modded versions mostly because of the non standard barrels we send them out with may like different pellets... because it would also be designs that are heavier and different from what we can get at P.A. etc and I now know a stock Mrod .25 can spit 40g at 700-750 fps so that makes a 35g-40g pellet useful if you can get things right...
The next detail is one that may effect the accuracy of my BBTs more than the 33g pellet I bet... and it is one I should have recognized first but was concentrating on getting as little base distortion as possible and did not notice...
I was for a while a mold/core maker on the sand side of an aluminum foundry and working with damp sand the importance of venting to fill out stared me in the face every day....
yet I did not see the slight rounding of the base of my boat tails till thinking about how I would work to get this mold working... the faces of the mold are vented but not the top and the sprue plate seals to well... IMO... bet it is the same with this mold...thinking of breaking the edges of the mating surfaces very slightly with fine wet dry on a stick..and I mean very slightly... this is not a iron mold making big rounds it will not take much... Probably should talk to Swede about it and see what he says first... not as important to have the nice crisp corner on the nose but I have always heard it is very important on the base...
http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/base-fill-out.27/ (http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/base-fill-out.27/)
so that is what I think so far...can't call it a design prob before I know I am not the prob in how I am doing the casting...
I go by my gut some, and my gut is saying the design will fly well if we get it all worked out... me I just want more designs also.. ;)
I do bet the old timers at casting would say this is a challenging design to pour right...probably quite a bit easier as a .30...
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I do want to thank you guys for sharing your experiences with the mold/pellet also Bob and Swede... I think it does help move casting for air forwards just a bit more... I am hoping Swede is willing/can to mod a mold for me am really wanting the challenge of it and do feel they would be maybe a touch less sensitive to get right...
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a coupl other things to try
Offsetting the sprue holes can even try partially blocked in near hole...or just to the far side a bit away from the side that gets pulled...
need some about (2% is oft quoted) tin for flow in most folk opinion... in fact I might long term even add enough to see just how hard a mix the barrel can tolerate.... pretty sure the NPXL barrel can handle 8-10 BHN (4%-5% tin) might even like it... the Mrod while only choked mildly might lead up with a harder mix..?
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I'll try a 30 second delay cutting the sprue the next time molding these and see how they turn out that way ???
I'm so darn use to casting for the muzzle loaders it is no issue at all being larger caliber like they are ;)
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I shot mine again today and had no problem grouping UNTIL I turned up the power and it shot like a shot gun. I was shooting them really slow at 600fps but once I cranked it up it really started wandering. Is this a sign of too heavy a head or too long a pellet etc. Curious.
Edit at bottom
Rich_B
"RPMs will bring out the worst. Like inconsistent spots in the nose get really bad the faster you spin them"
yep is probably part of the Problem... I think that pellets have a lot more in common with foster slugs than they do with a regular slug... I think they do actual require very little twist to work well...Pellets have less gyroscopic stability because the waist moves the weight inwards... smooth twist is one and shotguns sending a weight forward heavy pellet/ slugs is another... then there are the differences in the drag profile
the below link has a velocity plot of a foster slug at 450 fps notice that the body is flying in a low pressure zone already it will get bigger as velocity goes up towards 600-800 fps and the bigger the meplat/nose shape etc....but the pic is a good aid to visualize what a pellet does just imagine a waist... and remember that a wad-cutter nose will have supersonic flow at the edges starting at about 600fps... my point is that the pellets tail is providing less drag stabilization because of it...the rule is double the speed quadruple the drag... and we have a slightly out of balance nose that now matters more...
http://mcb-homis.com/slugcfd/slugcfd.html (http://mcb-homis.com/slugcfd/slugcfd.html)
I have head edit* heard from a neighbor confirms what I have read... gets clover leafs a lot at 75 yards 2"-4" at 100 with 12 Gage K.O. Slugs... and it is just a big weight forward pellet
http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/kotm/ (http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/kotm/)
150 or so yards offhand open sight torso shots with a foster slug...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrwUxYwhJvE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrwUxYwhJvE)
Foster rpm thru one shotgun skip to about 1:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRPo19DWlZY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRPo19DWlZY)
so now thinking of pellets well the hemi nose is best for long distance... why..? I think it is partially due to the drag profile changing the least over the range of velocity... the low pressure bubble is smaller at higher velocity than semi dome, wad, and semi wad noses... so there is less shift away from drag stabilization to gyroscopic stabilization...
and when it comes to gyroscopic stabilization well the pellet can handle to much spin the best... why would that be...it is because of where the weight is...less on the outer diameter means less stabilization... the foster slug is more spin stabilized and then the solid slug is most...
So with the design of this pellet with the necessary meplat to be able to nose pour we have a pellet that as velocity increases wants more spin stabilization so just may handle the fact that we over spin it by comparison a bunch...
so now go to the drag function form and put in these numbers... link below...
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=dewc&re_calculate=yes&diameter=.250&length=.375&nose=.142&meplat=.162&drive_band=.250&base_diameter=.250&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=29&density=8 (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=dewc&re_calculate=yes&diameter=.250&length=.375&nose=.142&meplat=.162&drive_band=.250&base_diameter=.250&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=29&density=8)
Bullet diameter (inches)
.250
Bullet length (inches)
.375
Nose length (inches)
.142
Meplat diameter (inches)
.162
Drive-band diameter (inches)
.250
Base diameter (inches)
.250
Boat-tail angle (degrees)
0
Boat-tail length (inches)
0
Bullet density
11.4 gms/cc (soft lead non-jacketed)
and you get the figures for a bullet of the same nose and length as our pellet that weighs 40g... and about a 1:25 twist at 500fps...
now it is time to jigger things a bit
our pellet is about 32g... so 40 x .8 =32 so now change the density to 8 grms/cc and watch the twist rate needed rise for the same bullet at our 32g weight...
so is this a crude representation of our pellet at velocity..? it does sort of represent max twist we could possibly need to me...
so now enter those figs in the twist rate calc...
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/barrel_twist.htm (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/barrel_twist.htm)
I used 7gms/cc for a lighter pellet cause I did this first as an estimate just to see the if I was close... what I got is below...shows my 1:19 twist XL 725 barrel looks good... the twist I used was L.W. 17.7
More to say about the mold and procedures but need a break... but I do think we can improve on the performance and these can work as drawn... so yep maybe a hint of some of the why of the 600 fps speed limit..?
EDIT*
the Labradar measurements in the below thread seem to lean towards confirming my theory... that the skirt drag and drag stabilization decrease with velocity, reply # 26...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124298.20 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124298.20)
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Norm, NOE can easily cut a larger diameter, using the same tool (they just interpolate the circle larger in the mill to increase the diam.), but unless they make larger RG pins for the hollow base, the skirt thickness would increase.... Also, you would have to get this done while a production run is happening, or there might be an extra charge for a one-of.... Since the head of the existing pellets is large enough to bore-ride the lands in a .257, and the skirt large enough to engage the grooves, I would try some of the current diameter before going the custom route.... Tom at AAA found that .30 cal JSBs work fine in a .308 barrel, so stranger things have happened....
Bob
Hi Bob, the link I found to purchase the .25 mold does not work any more. Can you provide a new link?
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Here is the page for some of the .250 rounds used in air rifles... Most if not all are currently sold out I think... I have the .250 34g pellet and the .250/.252 40g slug... I have read Swede is working on getting some back in stock and with RG pins.. ;D
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/251
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oops looks like there are some of the 27g pellet molds...
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You can find it in the .25 cal section on the new sight.
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The original NOE pellet moulds have been discontinued.... It turned out the nose was too long, and the design was changed a couple of years ago.... Here are the two new designs....
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/251/250-27-rf-cc3-hunter-pellet
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/251/250-34-rf-br3-magnum-pellet
There is actually a wadcutter as well....
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/251/250-22-wc-cd1-target-pellet
but don't expect them to be accurate at 900 fps.... Keep them below 700....
Bob
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Any idea when Al is going to make a run of the 34 grain .25 pellet molds? Been waiting and waiting but no joy yet.
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All I have heard is "soon"....
Bob
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Well I bought my second ever break barrel and my first ever Hatsan 1000X. I seen a deal in the bargain gate I couldn't turn down after Avator. . . . Bill brought it to my attention when he had seen that I was thinking about ordering an XS46U from FDAR, well for $99 I couldn't turn it down and ordered one from Midway and got it yesterday. The first thing I did was go out in my back yard and took three shots at a coke can and all three connected at 15 yards using the open sights. I immediately went back insided, broke out the 250-22-WC mold and started casting after I chiseled of a good hunk of lead from the pig ingot, heated up the pot and mold.
https://youtu.be/qaGnLwyrjtM
Not only does that Hatsan break barrel look nice it's light as He$$ !!! . . . very cool 8)
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If I had this original pellet mold am thinking that hollow pointing by hand would be an interesting endeavor...just might help it's balance problem...
If not...well...
am thinking to deck it to a 75% meplat to help the balance issue... can even hollow point by hand a bit for further balance adjustment... Do not think it would make a good long distance pellet but at 25- 40 maybe even 50 yards just might make one heck of a hard hitting semi-waddcutter med range Hunter pellet... Maybe could talk Wayne into modding His.? ;) could not afford to buy one unless it was about half price(fixxed income and some recent big expense)...and Knife was willing to do the decking and play with it for a while... A lot more practical than trying to turn it into a cylindrical pellet or changing waist/skirt angle...
used the .30 drawing to show about what it would look like... and honestly it brings to mind a heavy H&N Baracuda Hunter X-treme with a bigger meplat... Really do think it could work... wonder if extra base pins to make custom base pins are an option(could help fine tune balance that way)... Below is a pic of some hand made hollow base/hollow point 40g .250 I plan on experimenting with... will even try sending the hollow base backwards for a salute to the Pamela mold.. ;)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?59198-Ever-See-A-17-Caliber-Mould (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?59198-Ever-See-A-17-Caliber-Mould)
https://www.airgundepot.com/h-n-baracuda-hunter-extreme-pellets-25-cal-hollowpoint-200ct.html#gallery-1 (https://www.airgundepot.com/h-n-baracuda-hunter-extreme-pellets-25-cal-hollowpoint-200ct.html#gallery-1)
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You could probably get some of the long pins from Al, and then just shorten them yourself to end up in between.... That would be a good idea for anyone who wants to play with the balance of any NOE pellet.... If you are not aware, shortening the nose of the "Hunter" designs to increase the Meplat is exactly what I did to create the "Target" pellet, in fact the are cut with the same Cherry, just not as deep in the mould block.... From the feedback I have seen on the wadcutters, they aren't great at higher velocities, but perform well below about 700 fps....
If you want to make a jig to drill your own HP's, might I suggest using a center drill from a lathe.... They are short and rigid, with a 60 deg. taper on the main body.... The only thing you would have to watch it make sure that the pilot section doesn't go too deep and hit the base cavity.... Alternately, you could use a stub drill and grind the point angle to 60 deg. instead of 118 deg.... or maybe even use a 60 deg. pointed end mill....
I have the original .25 cal mould, and I might just try decking it someday....
Bob