GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: nervoustrigger on March 30, 2017, 11:53:12 AM
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Thanks to a heads up from Phil over in the Bargain Gate, I ordered a CP1-M from Mrodair over the weekend for only $90 shipped. It arrived yesterday just as if it were Amazon Prime service.
To say first impressions are positive would be huge understatement. The materials and build quality are far better than I would ever expect for this price point. Wood and metal all around. The only piece of plastic to be found is the rear sight. Feels very solid in the hand and there is no slop in the moving parts.
Also delivered yesterday was a red dot sight from Amazon. It was after dark before I could fool with it but I went ahead and mounted the sight and took it outside for a test drive. It didn't take long to get it zeroed at 12 yards and it was grouping nicely with the very first pellets I grabbed, some RWS Basic wadcutters. With that done, I had no problem drilling the teaspoon spinners offhand again and again. All this was under the glow of a flashlight so I only had a glint to aim at, which the red dot completely covered as I moved it onto the target. Not really the best of conditions.
So far I think this is a much better buy than a 2240 or 2400KT, both of which feel comparatively like a toy. Less so for the 2400KT due to the steel breech of course. The trigger pull of the CP1-M is also much nicer in my opinion, and I haven't polished or lubricated or adjusted anything.
I was also pleased by the number of shots on a 12g cartridge. I'll report back on an actual count and chrony results later. My only concern last night was to get acquainted with it and see how it's shooting out of the box. However it was pretty obvious right away that it would do well in that area because it had a fairly brief, distinct POP sound rather than the longer flatulent report I've come to expect from the Crosman CO2 pistols. It seems like the hammer strike was set by someone who actually understands that blowing a cloud of CO2 out of the barrel doesn't accomplish anything useful.
The only negative I have seen so far is if you want to use the open sights, the front sight blade will need to be shimmed to get it on target at typical pistol ranges. For mine at least, it was still shooting high with the rear sight bottomed out. I think I read this is a common issue.
I haven't used the magazine so no opinion on that yet.
If you've been on the fence, all I can say is now might be a good time to pick one up.
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Jason, which red dot?
I sure am excited to see mine... on the truck for delivery today. Added up what I had in my 2240 the other day, blew my mind..... LOL.
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Glad you like the gun...I'm a big fan of mine...your right about the front sight ,I asked on FB page common problem...I took front and rear sights off mine...rotated the front sight base to put flat on bottom...purely for looks....I have a BSA RD on mine...mounted rearward enough so that the mag fits...I'm looking for something in a mini....Rocker1 and TKO can provide LDC.....mine doesn't need one...good luck
Ps...any one that does face book...... Look for SnowPeak CP-1 and variants...those guys been there done that with these guns and u won't believe the furniture...
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Hi Kevin, well I should have gotten is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0160EFOKA (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0160EFOKA)
Instead I accidentally got this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00457SRBI (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00457SRBI)
Same model except with a different base. The photo shows it having a 3/8" dovetail but it's actually a Weaver (description is correct, picture is wrong). Fortunately I had an adapter so I went ahead and mounted it up.
I like it. It is a sturdy aluminum construction. It appears to do a good job of avoiding parallax error until you get far from center (head bob test). My only complaint is one I hear for many of the red dots, the lowest brightness setting is still too bright.
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Thanks Jason. I plan on shimming the front sight to begin with, but this may be the first pistol I put a red dot on... I like to keep them light and nimble, but red dots are a lot of fun.
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Glad you like it, Jason. I ended up removing the rear sight and replacing it with one from an 853. Now I can zero almost down to 1 yard. The guys overseas were calling them European 2240s cause of all the mods they came up with for them.
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Good news about that front sight is that it is NOT in a dovetail. Looks like one, but it's straight sided...so just cut a shim to the size of the bottom of the front sight, match the hole for the screw, and it will go right back into place (just a bit taller by the thickness of the shim).
Tested several on my pistols (including the CP1) with iron, red dots, scopes....target accuracy changed about as you'd expect, each step removing some of the human variation. BUT each step also make them a little less suited for pistol-pistol use (and more suited to carbine-pistol shooting).
Can still hang in there with iron, but have decided that at least some of the pistols will wear red dots. The CP1 will be one wearing a small red dot.
No argument with those who want a red or green dot (haven't gotten use to the scopes that offer blue yet...just looks so wrong to my eye).
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Really curious to see what your shot strings are... I shot a cart, pulled it apart to clean everything up and shot another 2 carts. Best I could do was 54 shots over 300 fps, averaged 465 for the first 27 shots, 404 for the next 27. Shooting CPHP 7.9 gr pellets.
About what they advertised, but no where near as good as I've seen others post. It's actually an abysmal total FPE from one powerlet, hoping I can do some work on it to improve that. It's only day 0, I'm sure a little tuning is in order.
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Jason: it will grow on you.
Can see the popularity, although my first thought when they came out was that they looked kind of awkward. Still LOOK that way, but handling was much better than expected.
Not sure about shot count. Been tied up with other things I wanted to do and first started playing with this one in cool weather. It has warmed up nicely now, prime co2 weather, and likely time to take a more serious look into that. Pretty much the same basic system used in other co2 pellet guns, so expect that the same kind of changes would result in the same kind of results.
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Anyone else not have a spring guide pin? Just curious if this batch doesn't have them, or if mine is just missing it. I do have a little crunchiness on the cocking, but I think I just need to polish the ramp on the sear and the hammer (or it might just be that I'm missing a spring guide! LOL)
All the pictures I see on the internet have the spring guide, so I may need to build one of those, sounds like getting a hold of MRODAIR is almost impossible, unless there is another parts source?
EDIT: Also, this is a prime example of miracle shot count: http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/chrony-test-and-shot-count-from-my-cp1-m-co2-pistol-your-mileage-may-vary/ (http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/chrony-test-and-shot-count-from-my-cp1-m-co2-pistol-your-mileage-may-vary/)
Mine appears to be blasting CO2 out the end, so I think some hammer spring work is in order. I don't see an easy way to fit this with any sort of SSG. Though maybe just clipping a 1/4 coil at a time until the top velocity drops to ~450ish would help. It's also worth noting, it's 56 in my basement right now, not exactly the right temp for hammer spring tuning on a CO2 pistol....
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Thanks for the link, Kevin. I'll try to get a chrony run this weekend and report back. I definitely don't think it is giving 80 shots. My guess is closer to 50, and the velocity may be different than what Dave is getting.
Mine does have a little hitch in the cocking just before the sear latches into the hammer. I have not cracked it open yet so I don't know if it has a spring guide but the behavior implies it's just that the parts need to be polished.
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Mine does have a little hitch in the cocking just before the sear latches into the hammer.
Exactly where mine is. There is a small ramp on the hammer that assists the sear at the very end of the cocking stroke, I think it is pretty rough on mine, but I didn't give it any love while I had it apart. I really just wanted to clean it up, shoot some more and then decide what I want to do.
Initial findings were burrs on the co2 tube stampings (see the cotton strands hanging on the tube from my cotton ball), rough machining on the hammer and seers and some "scrud" lubing the hammer (and caked against the valve). But overall, I absolutely love the simplicity of the design, and I think there is a ton of potential in this little gem. I know it sounds like I'm being critical of it, but it really is sweet for an inexpensive chinese pistol.
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Real world "out the box" CP1 shot count.
OK..so it's not really "out-the-box" but the stuff done to it was pretty much all external, the "guts" remain the same as when I shook it out of its triangular box.
Did clean it, relube it, try 6 or 7 diffferent sight arrangements, tried to LDC's, made one shoud, and adusted the trigger. But the "launch pad" can be considered "out the box".
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/7f69ef71-6564-46c2-95d4-0309339ceec2.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/7f69ef71-6564-46c2-95d4-0309339ceec2.jpg.html)
Shot count, basically 80F, and with some 10min restrs for the co2 tgemperature to catch up (shown by the red lines below):
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/eb95c5ae-2b50-4187-809e-cb3c39fb6334.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/eb95c5ae-2b50-4187-809e-cb3c39fb6334.jpg.html)
I AM PIC KY about my co2 shot counts. I'ts pretty evident where the 12gr. "packed it in". 40 really goodf shots. Could likely keep shooting and have the pellet dribble out the barrel for another 20-30 shots, but they aren't real "useful" shots.
Which works out to about 200fps of useful energy per 12 gr. Which is kind of wwasteful for this (5 foot pound) energy level (but I have to admint, with that shroud, it is quiet).
Doesn't really make a rat'srump of difference if you extend the velocity variation from 2% to 8% (whooopty-do...7 more shots).
So I want to look at other "winners" in the 12gr. co2 shot count race.
Looking up how other 12gr running airguns did, can see how that 200 fpe stacks up against other 12gr. running co2's:
Old records show a Hammerli Master 12gr. would managing 3.3 foot pounds X 78 shots for a 268 fpe+ per 12gr (with no "tuning/modding").
Crosman 2300S with an adjutent to just the hammer spring would manage d 4.39 foot pounds X 55 shots, which is 241 fpe per 12gr.
So it definately looks like the CP1 OWES more energy per `12gr. (longer shot count) than it it getting in out-the-box form.
Doesn't really bother me too much, but I am aware that if I can get it to use LESS co2 per shot, would also be even quieter.
I'd like to keep to about 4.7-5 foot pounds and somthing like 35-40 really good shots per 12gr. in order not to "waste" co2.
Whle I have modded 12gr. Crosmans for 85095 shots per 12gr, it got deep into valve mods, striker weight, striker tension, etc. to do it.
These are the variables I can most easily be manipulated:
1. Striker spring tension.
2. Striker weight.
3. Transfer port size.
4. Internal valve volume.
5. Striker stroker length.
I'll keep trying the above 5 vaiables until I get to 2% shots/ 250-280 foot pounds per 12gr., even if the vel. is 100fps ower.
Guven the blessing of time to play, will look at #1, #2, #2 tomorrow.
BTW: While they look very different, take a 2nd look.
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/67d7317f-5ddc-4829-b3e3-2c052b0ade6a.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/67d7317f-5ddc-4829-b3e3-2c052b0ade6a.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 67d7317f-5ddc-4829-b3e3-2c052b0ade6a.jpg"/>[/url]
The difference in weight is under 2/10ths an ounce. The long, but thin, shorud doesn't add much.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/67d7317f-5ddc-4829-b3e3-2c052b0ade6a.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/67d7317f-5ddc-4829-b3e3-2c052b0ade6a.jpg.html)
The grip shape that actually contacts your hand is very much the same.
The weight balance is not far off at all (they "feel" very much alike).
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I'm also considering playing with MDS/Hybrid strikers, but I need some warmer weather first.... Mid 70's would be nice. 8)
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Does anyone have any chrony info on the 22 version?
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Hi Robert, thanks for the chrony string. I went out earlier this morning and did ran a new cartridge through my stock pistol and got pretty similar results. The temperature was right at 70F and I was in the shade. Mine isn't shooting quite as hot as yours...velocity was about 470 instead of 500fps with the 8.4 grain. Ended up with 48 shots inside of 8% for total energy of 193fpe.
If time permits today, I may try shortening the spring or replacing it.
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Kevin, I opened mine up and it has a hammer spring guide. It's an aluminum part about 1.25" long overall whose hat rests against the end cap.
The internals seem well thought out. Some nice surprises like brass bushings that ride in slots (hammer and bolt guides) and a sintered filter on the valve inlet.
The bolt O-ring is already chewed up from ~200 shots so it looks like I'll be easing the edges and ordering some metric O-rings. My wife already thinks I should open an O-ring store.
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Did my first shot-count retune.
Took it all apart and did 5 things at once....which is NOT a good way of figuring out what each cange did, but was after one goal..." more shots per 12g"...so figured all of them together wouldn't hurt.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/fe403b6d-42cf-4e86-bbc6-c1c883c3740f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/fe403b6d-42cf-4e86-bbc6-c1c883c3740f.jpg.html)
#1. (in Red). Polished the inclined surface of the striker and the sear to make it smoother.
#2. Also lightly polished the radius of the striker and the slots in the tube the striker runs back-and-forth in
Idea here is to make the cocking a little smoother, not to change trigger pull.
#3. ground/filed flat the rear end of the spring guide to a smaller thickness. Basically, removed one coil of tension from the spring without cutting the spring (so I could shim it back up to full tension using the issue spring).
#4. NOT A SHOT COUNT ISSUE. Was unhappy about the adjusting screw for the trigger, so I set it back to "flush" and just shimmed the trigger blade (the hard blue plastic seen in photo).
#5. Limited the valve stem protusion. Stuck out of the valve just at .106".
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/fab10c0a-22bc-413d-bd8a-d58d0bc910e5.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/fab10c0a-22bc-413d-bd8a-d58d0bc910e5.jpg.html)
Added a do-nut shim to the back of the valve to limit that protusion to .075"
Put the pistol all back together and shot one 12gr. for shot count.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/0df73b8b-4067-46cd-9ca4-f9506f06c3bc.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/0df73b8b-4067-46cd-9ca4-f9506f06c3bc.jpg.html)
YESTERDAY (pre- tune #1):
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/eb95c5ae-2b50-4187-809e-cb3c39fb6334.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/eb95c5ae-2b50-4187-809e-cb3c39fb6334.jpg.html)
Basically 42 shots inside of 4% for about 210 foot pounds per 12gr.
TODAY (post-tune #1):
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/5bc683d6-1464-44b2-be17-a923a2ef774c.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/5bc683d6-1464-44b2-be17-a923a2ef774c.jpg.html)
So basically 51 shots insde of 4% for about 255 foot pounds per 12 gr.
Good news:
Increased shot count of 20-22%.
It didn't shoot any slower, just used less gas per shot.
Using a little less gas per shot made it a tiny bit quieter.
Bad news:
Having done 5 things at once, really don't know which is reponsible for the increase shot count.
It's no where near the reported in at least one review of 80 shots per 12gr. (athough I do notice that MrodAir's pubished claim is for "dozens" of shots. 4 dozen counts as "dozens").
As I intend using this as a short range pest-bird zapper, am not going to lower velocity/energy too much. About 5 foot pounds is certainly low enough for this use, so I may not be chasing super long shot counts much past this.
Even borrowing all the .177 mags in the house (5 of them for various .177 AirMax products)..that's still only 45 shots.
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Kevin, I opened mine up and it has a hammer spring guide. It's an aluminum part about 1.25" long overall whose hat rests against the end cap.
Well, I'll have to turn one up sometime, though honestly, I don't notice any ill effects that I could attribute to lack of a spring guide.
My wife already thinks I should open an O-ring store.
I think it is a symptom of the sickness. LOL. Have you found what sizes are needed to service everything? I am assuming I can find what I need at the Oring store, I'd like to get a full set ordered and added to the collection if you already found the sizes.
I have to say, after putting ~200 pellets through it today, I'm definitely less worried about shot count, this thing has completely redeemed any shortcomings I may have been worried about with it's accuracy. I am positive that with open sights, this pistol will outshoot me all day long, and I'm not a completely terrible shot with a pistol. I did order a red dot just to have for all the toys, if I really like it on the CP1 or my 2240 I may just order another to have on hand; my eyes are not getting any better as the years go by.
Ribbonstone, what did you use for a stop pad on the valve stem? I was considering a sort of BStaley mod for it if I don't build a lightweight hammer first. Thanks for the feedback on cleaning up that ramp on the hammer, I am fairly certain mine is as rough as the rest of the hammer was.
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So long as you just polish the two inclines (one on the striker, one on the sear) and don't get into the engagement surfaces, will just smooth the cocking a bit
The shim was cut from bicycle inner tube patching (rubber like material with a sticky back). Cut to a circle pretty much the same diameter as the valve, with a hole in the center for the stem.
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Have you found what sizes are needed to service everything? I am assuming I can find what I need at the Oring store, I'd like to get a full set ordered and added to the collection if you already found the sizes.
Yes, I measured them:
.177 bolt O-ring (in the barrel): 4.5mm x 1.5mm (or -008 with the OD abraded down slightly)
.22 bolt O-ring (in the barrel): ??? my guess is 5.5mm x 1mm
barrel: 8mm x 1mm
transfer port: 6mm x 2mm (looks like a -010 will work as well)
valve: 13mm x 2mm
By the way, my transfer port had an O-ring on only one side but looks like there should have been two so I'm going with two when I reassemble.
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Very interesting results~
I have the .177 and .22 but haven't played with them much other then altering the grip for the .22. Thought about an LDC except they are much quieter then CO2 wasting 2240's. Think I will dig mine out of the big safe as it is getting up to 12c during the days now. I purchased my pair over a year and a half ago when they first came out! Bought two spare magazines for each at the time, haven't tried them out yet! I paid $129 each shipped for them.
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Did anyone's else crown look like it was done with a lava rock? Fortunately the rifling looks pretty good once it is given an opportunity to show itself:
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Oh my. Talk about a chattery chamfering tool....
Now that I've gotten through the nice weekend, I plan to fully tear mine down and see what it needs, as well as do the 2 stage trigger mod and look into upping the efficiency. I definitely think it'll be getting a MDS hammer of some sort, they're not that tough to make and I think it could help.
It just feels wrong that my 2240 is putting out 465 FPE in one powerlet averaging 410 FPS and this is putting out ~184 FPE averaging 410 FPS. I definitely expect the .177 to put out less, but not that much less.
I'm wondering if I don't also have a leak somewhere. Time to get out the microscope I think.
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So, I just pulled it completely apart, I figure it's time to get to work. My crown doesn't look nearly as bad as Jason's, but I'm still going to touch it up.
Couple things:
- Transfer port, exhaust port and barrel port all measure ~.140", breech port measures .125" and all have sharp corners. I'm thinking opening the breech port to .140", and lightly chamfering all the sharp corners to help the flow.
- Looking more closely at the valve, the CO2 has got to make a heck of a journey to get down to the actual poppet seat. I think there is enough meat in the valve body to open up down closer to where the white plastic poppet actually seals. This would open up the internal valve volume as well as help keep a larger volume of CO2 available at the seal off itself.
- I don't think this is a candidate for rounding off the exhaust port as it already looks dangerously close to the poppet seat, and I think there is a brass bushing for the poppet stem (it sure looks inserted to me)
My thought is if I can get it breathing better, I can use a lighter hammer spring and striker to get the power back down to roughly 500 FPS but hopefully bump the efficiency a ways. It just seems to me that this pistol has more to offer; but I'm a little leery to start machining on the valve because how would I ever buy another valve if I went too far???? I don't think I'd want to count on MRODAIR for spare parts and I'm not aware of any other supplier that might offer them (anyone have any ideas???).
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My CP1-M is in transit. Since I'm quite new to airguns, are there any required maintenance before loading up the first CO2 powerlet?
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My CP1-M is in transit. Since I'm quite new to airguns, are there any required maintenance before loading up the first CO2 powerlet?
Put a drop of chamber lube on the tip of the powerlet before inserting, and then maybe every 3rd one after.
Jason, did the numbers help you out?
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Just clean it. Long ocean voyage on a big container ship, and there seems to be some kind of skummy/sticky preservative inside the bore.
Other that that, will agree to a small drop of lube on the nose of the 12g. being used (small as in about flea sized)....if you want to only lube ever 2nd or 3rd cartridge, doesn't seem a problem, but I've not found any problem running mine a little "wet".
Haven't tried the power increase...actually working in the other direction, looking for longer good shot count and accepting the lower energy that requires.
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Hi Terry, yes last night I finally imported your string into my spreadsheet and the total energy was impressive. I plan to take a closer look tonight and post the numbers.
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Terry, are you also going to post the secret sauce? ;D
I did finish the all nylon lightweight MDS hammer last night (along with a few creature comfort mods) but I needed to pick up some short #6-32 set screws and the hardware was closed on my way home. Hoping to get it back together tonight for a string or 2 to see if it helped at all.
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The way he explained it to me, it's bog stock. So something must've changed along the way. Too bad, really, because his is set up way more efficiently than ours. I'd love to see them side by side to note the differences.
I will say this, I noticed on mine that there is just the very slightest bit of hammer spring preload (1 or 2mm) in the uncocked state. Let's instead call it the "fired" state to represent that the spring is just barely leaning on the poppet once fired. That is, it's not pressing with enough force to hold the valve open after the shot but when the poppet rebounds in the reverse direction, it may be imparting enough energy into the hammer to recompress the spring and produce a second (CO2-wasting) opening of the valve.
I could be wrong but I'm not inclined to think that simply clipping coils will make a dramatic improvement. I mean, it's only 1 coil shy of being a free-flight hammer as it is. So it would likely have to be cut back quite a bit to make a difference and at that point, the distance the hammer must cover in free flight gets ever larger and that's not good for the extreme spread and can produces a large velocity variation for steep inclined shots. Granted, neither of those things is probably of any consequence for a pistol duty but...
I think you are on the right track with a lightweight hammer. The throat is quite small so it shouldn't take a lot of energy to crack the valve open, and you don't want a heavy hammer (momentum) holding the valve open for long because the barrel is so short. My one lingering concern is how the material will wear against this type of sear. Maybe you can sleeve the face of the hammer to deal with that.
I don't have the stuff for a light hammer so I'm toying with the idea of an internal SSG. If I'm thinking about it right, I can drill a clearance hole through the face of the hammer and pass a long screw through it, on through the hammer spring, and thread it into the spring guide. Then I can just thread the screw in and out to adjust the overall length of the assembly. With a little preload added, it should then be stiff enough that the poppet's rebound won't be able to recompress it a second time and send it snapping forward to reopen the valve. So it gets rid of that form of waste, I'm just not sure it won't still have way too much dwell on the initial strike.
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The numbers I sent Jason were totally straight out of the box. I ordered mine way back when they were first offered. The only thing I did after that string was recorded, was stretch the hammer spring for a little more oomph. The hammer was free floating.... I could tip the gun up and down and hear the hammer sliding back and forth. Not much, but still movement. Had I thought about it, I would have measured the spring before stretching. Not many people were interested in the cp1m almost two years ago when they cost more.
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Terry, sounds like yours had a sort of pseudo short stiff spring? Hmm...
Not enough time to get mine completely back together tonight. I did discover that the transfer port is about .020" too short and the o rings on it are about .010" too small for the counterbores even when installed on the transfer port. I made a .030" thick shim so they'll at least seal on the ends. This wouldn't effect shot count so much, but might explain why mine is a little slower than everyone else is seeing (even when correcting for temps). I haven't powdered it yet, I probably will if the fps doesn't come up.
Jason, I'm really curious about how it's going to wear also. I only have these hammers in my pistol and 2400 that both have the PROD drop seers. I'm thinking of doing exactly like you're saying with a steel top hat of a sort and riding on MDS so it can still run dry. I want to see if there are any gains before I go too far with it though. Hopefully tomorrow night I'll have my answer.
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A graph of Terry's shot string...363fpe total over 109 shots inside of an 8% ES. Good stuff!
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I gotta say, I see one glaring difference between Terry's shot string and mine.
(http://i.imgur.com/tZy8Gs9.jpg)
My shot count has all the signs of an overstruck CO2 valve, while Terry's was probably hitting just a little bit lighter than I would prefer (I would trade a few shots for a little more power at that level) at least at whatever temp he shot the string at (though I wouldn't mess with that setup if I could get mine to shoot like that to be honest!!! LOL)
I'm thinking about compression setting the stock spring and see if it creates the slightest of gaps. I also don't have a spring guide yet, so I should have a little less spring than everyone else already. This gives me hope.
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Thanks Guys! After reading your reviews I had to order one. For $90.00 I don't think that I can go wrong and It looks like it has a lot of potential. With the warmer CO2 weather coming it will be another FUN toy to modify and shoot, as if I have time. Bob
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Did anyone's else crown look like it was done with a lava rock? Fortunately the rifling looks pretty good once it is given an opportunity to show itself:
Jason how did you go about doing the recrowning job on that one? I've never personally done a crown job myself but I see how a lot do it with the brass screw trick.
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Bob,
I was a little apprehensive at first... But it's won me over, and now I've got my eye on the MK II/PP700-S (need a hand pump first though, my scuba is never full enough for something like that!) after working on this pistol.
I'm really surprised by the quality at this price point, I guess I probably just had my expectations set pretty low.
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Bob,
I was a little apprehensive at first... But it's won me over, and now I've got my eye on the MK II/PP700-S (need a hand pump first though, my scuba is never full enough for something like that!) after working on this pistol.
I'm really surprised by the quality at this price point, I guess I probably just had my expectations set pretty low.
They're still available for $219 shipped, I recently got an email response from them, that was the night before last and they said the guns were in transit from China so it won't be long 8)
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They're still available for $219 shipped, I recently got an email response from them, that was the night before last and they said the guns were in transit from China so it won't be long 8)
Wayne, I'm waiting for the first wave to go through before I buy one. I'm never an early adopter. :D
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Hi Wayne, you guessed right on the brass screw technique. The bevel was uniform (just very rough with chatter marks), and the rifling at the muzzle wasn't damaged so I didn't have to do anything more drastic like chop the end.
When dressing a crown using this method, the points I like to emphasize are:
1. Use a light touch. Applying force to abrade the material more quickly will usually leave a burr. By light touch I mean when I have the barrel clamped to the bench with the muzzle facing up, I do not press downward with the drill. Instead I partially support its weight to limit how hard the screw is engaged against the crown.
2. Orbit the drill in a somewhat random manner. Attempting to hold the drill stationary will produce an uneven bevel. Figure 8 movements tend to work well.
3. Periodically switch the drill between clockwise and counterclockwise rotation. Not strictly necessary if you finish up with a very fine abrasive but it's easy to do so I see no reason to skip it.
4. When you think you are done, inspect with a magnifying glass or jeweler's loupe. I like 5x but as little as 3x will suffice. You want to see a very crisp cog-like appearance at the end of the bore.
5. Verify there is no burr when you are done. For me at least, pushing a couple of pellets through is a far more reliable way to check than using a cotton swab. There should be absolutely no increase in resistance when the head of the pellet reaches the muzzle. Naturally, it's a little harder to distinguish when dealing with choked barrels but usually the choke is long enough that I can develop a sense of how hard I was pushing to feed it through the constriction versus how it feels just as the head is about to emerge into the world.
I hope this helps!
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my .22 cp1-m just arrived today. It definitely need some tuning as each shot is accompanied by a huge puff of CO2 and I'm only getting about 24 shots before a noticeable drop in POI. At the current state, the noise level is not garage friendly. The crown is not quite as mangled as Jason's but I think I will give the brass screw trick a try.
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Ok. I am 100% convinced that the CP1M (at least the current batch) suffers miserably from hammer bounce. I just ran this string off of mine with a lightweight (Full MDS Hammer, I'm guessing 15 grams) and a heavy (8lb) spring with about .050" of negative preload. Temp is 53 degrees in the basement right now, and this was shot using 7.3gr CPHP because I'm running low on JSB and AA 8.4gr.
(http://i.imgur.com/eva1KGf.jpg)
This to me, is concrete proof that we need to figure out a way to fit an internal SSG with the stock spring and hammer and get our shot counts into the hundred-ish range. Mine was getting a little hard to cock and latch towards the end, and I suspect that the MDS hammer is not holding up to the scraping it's most likely taking from the seer on every shot(as predicted). I think the stock hammer would be fine if we can just get an SSG in there....
Oh my.... :o
Edit: I usually draw the line at the first shot below 300 with my pistols, which means for this run, even with 11 shots counting for nothing, it made 307 FPE in 127 shots, and shooting it until the last pellet rolled out the barrel it made 316 FPE in 137 shots.
If I extrapolate the shots I didn't count during tuning (which were blasting gas!!) and use the average, that is 342 FPE above 300 FPS and 350 FPE for 137 shots. That is much much closer to what I expect out of CO2 cartridge on a 177 at this power level.
Edit 2: Also, My "plateau" if you will was 467 FPS during my spring tuning, which is what it was before I added the shim to the transfer port to try and seal it up better, so I'm thinking even though the length and diameter of the transfer port/o-rings, it wasn't leaking that much out of the transfer port. I still haven't powdered it to check for leaks, so there could be something else hindering my FPS (besides the 53 degree temps).
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Nice work there, Kevin. That's looking very promising.
If I can find a suitable hardware, I'm planning to fashion an SSG and see how it goes. I'll share pictures and the results.
BTW if you used 7.3gr for your FPE calculations, you shortchanged yourself a bit. CPHP are 7.9gr.
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If it'll help, my belief is there was roughly 3/16" of play in the hammer. I didn't have to stretch very much to get the spring to hold the hammer against the valve stem. Bear in mind, I'm just guessing here, but might give you a good starting point. I definitely think it would benefit from an ssg or similar, especially in .22.
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BTW if you used 7.3gr for your FPE calculations, you shortchanged yourself a bit. CPHP are 7.9gr.
You're exactly right, I did use 7.3 even in my calculations. So my total FPE above 300 FPS was about 370 FPE and total for the string was ~380 FPE.
If it'll help, my belief is there was roughly 3/16" of play in the hammer. I didn't have to stretch very much to get the spring to hold the hammer against the valve stem. Bear in mind, I'm just guessing here, but might give you a good starting point. I definitely think it would benefit from an ssg or similar, especially in .22.
Thanks Terry. That definitely helps.
I think this may be a candidate for a sort of twin spring system (maybe only internally adjustable though). I noticed last night in my brainstorming that the stock spring is counter-wound to every other spring in my collection, and as luck would have it, a stock Crosman 760 pumpmaster spring fits perfectly inside the stock spring (really any 5/16 OD spring fits perfectly inside) and is about 3/8" shorter. As much as I don't want to cut the stock spring (since you can't get parts... :-\ ) I'm thinking of clipping the stock spring until it has about a negative .050" preload (maybe more?), than use a stock 2240 (shorter, but could easily be stretched) or 760 hammer spring to fine tune the power level to what I want.
Ideally, I'd like this to be at 500 FPS with 8.4gr @ 75 degrees for 70-80 shots (which would be 322-380 FPE)
What kind of FPS are the .22 version making?
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I used an O-ring behind the hammer spring to add a little tension and gain about 30fps. Dropped my shot count from 90 to about 65 per cart.
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Just a quick update on mine. No efficiency mods yet but I stripped it down last weekend, deburred and polished up the things that count and recrowned the barrel. Work and family have been keeping me busy but I had a little time Thursday night to get it reassembled and managed to get some time yesterday after lawn work to sight it in and try it out.
It took me a little longer than I wanted to get the red dot resighted because the adjustment locking screws tend to shift the POI so I had to creep up on the final adjustment. Afterwards though, hitting the spoon spinners at 10 yards with my hands braced on my knee quickly became boring. Offhand went pretty much the same way...missed some but could always call it when the trigger broke.
So I went back to my table at 25 yards and put a few shots on paper to confirm that yes, the combination of high sight line and 10yd zero has it hitting high at 25yds. With that in mind, I thought it would be a fun challenge to engage the spoons from this distance. Definitely more of a challenge even with the advantage of bracing my hands on the table. I was averaging something like 2 for 5 at first but got it up closer to 3 or 4 after some practice.
So then I eyeballed the rat spinner hanging out at 43 yards. Oh, what the heck. I guesstimated the holdover and sent the first shot over it. Lowered my POA for the second shot but sent it too high as well. Another adjustment and the 3rd shot sent back a satisfying ding! sound. Pretty soon I was hitting it well more than missing it. Granted, it's much larger than the spoons but it put a big smile on my face to ring it 3 times in a row with a pistol and red dot lobbing cheap wadcutters around 500fps.
I have never done much pistol shooting. Normally I'm shooting rifles with at least 9x magnification and much flatter trajectory. To be honest, I was skeptical that could enjoy such an imprecise sight but once I adjusted my expectations, it's actually a lot of fun :)
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What's really neat shooting like that, is you learn how to adjust fire with anything that has open sights. When I was 8-9 years old, my only gun was the Daisy 102, and I picked up on the technique pretty quick. It didn't take long to figure out it worked with all types of guns. If you can see the trajectory, corrections can be made on the fly.
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Did anyone's else crown look like it was done with a lava rock? Fortunately the rifling looks pretty good once it is given an opportunity to show itself:
Jason how did you go about doing the recrowning job on that one? I've never personally done a crown job myself but I see how a lot do it with the brass screw trick.
Newby here, what is the brass screw trick, I understand about recrowning the barrel but not with a brass screw.
Bill
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Newby here, what is the brass screw trick, I understand about recrowning the barrel but not with a brass screw.
Bill
Bill, up at the top of this page... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124266.msg1216506#msg1216506 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124266.msg1216506#msg1216506)
Also, youtube (for the basics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoSI_O3Oc3w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoSI_O3Oc3w)
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Just a quick update on mine. No efficiency mods yet but I stripped it down last weekend, deburred and polished up the things that count and recrowned the barrel. Work and family have been keeping me busy but I had a little time Thursday night to get it reassembled and managed to get some time yesterday after lawn work to sight it in and try it out.
It took me a little longer than I wanted to get the red dot resighted because the adjustment locking screws tend to shift the POI so I had to creep up on the final adjustment. Afterwards though, hitting the spoon spinners at 10 yards with my hands braced on my knee quickly became boring. Offhand went pretty much the same way...missed some but could always call it when the trigger broke.
So I went back to my table at 25 yards and put a few shots on paper to confirm that yes, the combination of high sight line and 10yd zero has it hitting high at 25yds. With that in mind, I thought it would be a fun challenge to engage the spoons from this distance. Definitely more of a challenge even with the advantage of bracing my hands on the table. I was averaging something like 2 for 5 at first but got it up closer to 3 or 4 after some practice.
So then I eyeballed the rat spinner hanging out at 43 yards. Oh, what the heck. I guesstimated the holdover and sent the first shot over it. Lowered my POA for the second shot but sent it too high as well. Another adjustment and the 3rd shot sent back a satisfying ding! sound. Pretty soon I was hitting it well more than missing it. Granted, it's much larger than the spoons but it put a big smile on my face to ring it 3 times in a row with a pistol and red dot lobbing cheap wadcutters around 500fps.
I have never done much pistol shooting. Normally I'm shooting rifles with at least 9x magnification and much flatter trajectory. To be honest, I was skeptical that could enjoy such an imprecise sight but once I adjusted my expectations, it's actually a lot of fun :)
You might want to see if you can find some old Elmer Keith books on Pistol shooting. He was person responsible for getting the .357, .41 and .44 S&W Magnum cartridge up and running. He could shoot as far as 600 yds and hit his target everytime. Lots of good books written by him. Worth making the time to read if your a big game hunter or handgun shooter. I might have a book of his in my gunsmithing library to loan.
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I ordered one last Friday morning, in .22 caliper, and I received it this afternoon. My first impression is that it is extremely well built and the machining is above par. It is the first Chinese piece that I am very pleased with after spending a lot on money on a new Chinese lathe and mill that I had to re-machine 80% of it to get it within specs. My only con is that the trigger needs some polishing and adjustments to get it to my liking which I do not see as a problem. After an initial disassembly, inspection and clean up I shot 20 pellets through it which grouped great and fired smoothly.
Deffently a great fun piece and well worth the $89.00. This weekend I will put it through it's paces. Bob
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Got my CP1-M today, pulled the barrel and run a brush and a few patches down the bore, it was kind of dirty. Noticed its shooting about an inch high at 10 yards. What size shim are you guys installing under the front sight to get the groups down? I have the rear sight screwed all the way down. Overall I ready like this pistol, its going to be a lot of fun in the back yard.
Bill
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Well, I'm giving up on the lightweight hammer. I just can't get what I would call an "acceptable" cocking force with such a lightweight hammer.
I can get it to shoot well, and the shot cycle is smooth (love the MDS hammers) and the shot count is astronomical, but the ergonomics of it are terrible even with the extended bolt handle (2 fingers wide) I made the other day.
I've tossed around the idea of a steel-MDS hybrid hammer and may pursue that, but in the meantime I've decided to venture down the fully internal SSG path and see what I can come up with there using the stock hammer. I need to measure the hammer stroke, but this is what I'm thinking:
(http://i.imgur.com/gLSkUX5.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/O3CzkiD.jpg)
I tried the BSTALEY (through the hammer) SSG version with the lightweight hammer, but it actually took even more hammer spring force than the short stiff version I was able to get 100+ shots out of. Since I can't just call up and order a spare hammer, I've been holding out on cutting into the stock hammer (though I suppose I could machine an all steel replacement if needed).
I plan to measure everything up tonight and hopefully have a working prototype tomorrow afternoon.
On a side note, has anyone found any tricks to making the magazines load a little easier? I chamfered and polished the breech where the pellet enters from the magazine, but I haven't been in the magazines yet. I have 2 that feed awesome, one that is almost useless so I need to pull it apart and see if I can give it any love. Thought maybe someone else stumbled on something for tuning these mags that would point me in the right direction.
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my .22 cp1-m just arrived today. It definitely need some tuning as each shot is accompanied by a huge puff of CO2 and I'm only getting about 24 shots before a noticeable drop in POI. At the current state, the noise level is not garage friendly. The crown is not quite as mangled as Jason's but I think I will give the brass screw trick a try.
yeah, mine is doing the same thing.
any suggestions.
haven't taken anything apart yet. still waiting for o-rings from the O-ring store (back ordered).
as always , thanks
Bob
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haven't taken anything apart yet. still waiting for o-rings from the O-ring store (back ordered).
The 2x6 O-rings? Apparently I cleaned them out... website said ~19000 in stock, but then they sent me an email about the backorder so I told them I'd just take what they had as order in full. Haven't counted them, but I probably got the last.... :-[
On a brighter note, I didn't actually destroy any of mine during disassembly. Was worried about the barrel o-rings, but they seemed to survive just fine. I do plan on changing them out during the next teardown though.
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yeah, i can look inside the breach and see bits and pieces of bbl. o-ring in there.
seems like having a few around was probably a good thing and shipping is the same for all of them vs. a few.
thanks, bob 8)
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I just did the recommended mods on me new CP-1M such as re-crown, polish hammer, polish tube, trigger sear sides and contact points, trigger set screw, adjusted trigger and slight Moly lube all contact points. Deffently smoother cocking and crisper trigger pull. Presently waiting for a 2x20 BSA scope so that I can finish testing as we have been getting warmer weather on the East coast. Next mods, modify grip for better hold and fabricate a full shroud with baffles for more quiet backyard time. Does anyone have a list of all of the O-Ring sizes, as I failed to measure them before I re-assembled it? Bob
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Does anyone have a list of all of the O-Ring sizes, as I failed to measure them before I re-assembled it? Bob
Bob,
Jason listed them here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124266.msg1214042#msg1214042 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124266.msg1214042#msg1214042)
Theoringstore.com is backordered on one of these for another day or 2.
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Bob,
Jason listed them here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124266.msg1214042#msg1214042 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124266.msg1214042#msg1214042)
Theoringstore.com is backordered on one of these for another day or 2.
Kevin, thanks...I missed it.
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That reminds me I should have mentioned I was unable to use the barrel O-rings I ordered. They are the correct size but 75 durometer. I think the originals are 50. The barrel is a snug fit to the receiver and the harder O-rings would not compress sufficiently. Fortunately the originals were not damaged so I was able to reuse them. But even if they had a bite taken out of them, it's very likely the seal would be just fine given how closely the metalwork fits. Plus they are not under constant pressure, they just need to resist a pulse of pressure for a few milliseconds each time the valve is knocked open.
Just saying that in case someone finds themselves staring at a gnarly looking barrel O-ring and no prospects for a replacement, I think it would be reasonable to go ahead and reassemble anyway and see how it goes.
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That reminds me I should have mentioned I was unable to use the barrel O-rings I ordered.
Does anyone need 20 O-Rings 8mmx1mm 70 Duro... I hear they won't work for my application. ;D
I think I'm getting too far down the rabbit hole here. I built an internal SSG that works great as far as reducing the amount of cocking force, the gap isn't adjustable (I started at .025" gap, ended at .040" gap by grinding the length of the SHCS down) but the preload is fully adjustable independent of the gap.
Here's a couple pics to show my idea, also note that I cut 1.5 coils off the stock spring trying to reduce the amount of hammer force (then I chickened out that I wouldn't have enough preload to provide the "wall" needed in an SSG so I stopped tuning on that):
(http://i.imgur.com/BaiOcIz.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/B1NhqhO.jpg)
The issue is that even with the stock ~3.4 LB/in spring, it's still hitting too hard and blasting CO2 for the first 30 shots. I was able to get the shot count up to ~57, but it wasn't flat at all, and to be honest, I just don't like the look of the shot string:
(http://i.imgur.com/6yffrVA.jpg)
Currently the hammer throw on this pistol is ~1.2", I started having visions of reducing the hammer throw to 1" (similar to the 22XX's) but then I started thinking that maybe I need to forget the idea of the SSG and focus more on a BStaley Oring type mod like Ribbonstone had done with his. I'm not sure what buffer material to use yet, I've read a bit about LLoyd's experimenting with that, but I don't recall seeing him mention what he's using or what worked best.
I am starting to think that limiting poppet travel might be the best way to tame this beast (or hog, as in gas hog), and I'm almost wondering if I'm not missing a travel limiter of some sort that some pistols have and that explains the major discrepancies between some pistol's efficiency and the rest of the world (Jason was missing an o-ring, mine is missing a spring guide, so it's not out of the question).
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Other end of the stick.
If you think a co2 airgun is using more co2 per shot than is needed for the energy produced, have two choices:
1. reduce the valve dweell (through several methods) so that the valve open/closing cycle is fast enough to not squirt out "useless" gas (gas that doens't do anything towards pellet velocity,,,,just got to the party too late to increase the fun).
Or
2. Starve the valve so that it can't pass on more than a limited amount of gas. Limit both it's volume and the ability for gas to pass though quickly.
I went with #2 today.
Pistol:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/3e11c0dc-1cc4-4e68-84e5-7103c4d1dfc1.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/3e11c0dc-1cc4-4e68-84e5-7103c4d1dfc1.jpg.html)
Where I left it: Shot string: using a slightly reduced striker spring and a "bstaley" pad on the front of the valve body to cusion/reduce vlave dwell.
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/5bc683d6-1464-44b2-be17-a923a2ef774c.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/5bc683d6-1464-44b2-be17-a923a2ef774c.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5bc683d6-1464-44b2-be17-a923a2ef774c.jpg"/>[/url]
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/5bc683d6-1464-44b2-be17-a923a2ef774c.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/5bc683d6-1464-44b2-be17-a923a2ef774c.jpg.html)
Rather than reinvent the wheel, thought I'd look around for somthing close to what I needed.
Standard tubing:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/d39935a4-1878-4641-8334-04cc94619b62.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/d39935a4-1878-4641-8334-04cc94619b62.jpg.html)
LAthe reductioin of OD of tubing:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/a99ce05b-d5aa-43d7-87b1-cea4d7c44c3e.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/a99ce05b-d5aa-43d7-87b1-cea4d7c44c3e.jpg.html)
Rechcek fit of valve stem/retrun spring befor polishing:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/3e766764-e82e-4db0-90c8-2ab320cd6b28.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/3e766764-e82e-4db0-90c8-2ab320cd6b28.jpg.html)
Cut off length/fit of tubing inside the valve:
(http://[URL=http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/e0469e4b-755b-4912-9d56-59f8702c0814.jpg.html][IMG]http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/e0469e4b-755b-4912-9d56-59f8702c0814.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/e0469e4b-755b-4912-9d56-59f8702c0814.jpg.html)
Length:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/d6b8dc3f-70a4-49c7-9a76-6daa52c94e50.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/d6b8dc3f-70a4-49c7-9a76-6daa52c94e50.jpg.html)
Test shot string:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/5ed2776d-7dc0-4081-9615-3d222779169d.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/5ed2776d-7dc0-4081-9615-3d222779169d.jpg.html)
So basically, all that "work" on the valve limter was worth 1%,,I'm not "griping" about it. 50 shots inside of 3% is better than 50 shots inside of 4%, but I had hoped for a bit more.
Not that I've really unhappy with +50 shots inside of 3% vs +50 hots inside of 4%.
It really doesn't seem like much, but I'll take a gain in consistency/gas-use efficiency..may not be a bad thing for future tuning. Still looking at 50 shots before it starts dropping off,but those 50 shots are pretty close together in velocity.
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Okay, I think I've found a satisfactory balance of shot count for the effort.
After seeing the other day it's possible to hit the spoon spinners at 25 yards with confidence and the rat spinner at 43 yards more often than not, I decided I didn't want to trade off much velocity to get the total fpe up. So this morning I set out to try O-ring buffer combinations until the velocity dropped off to about 90% of maximum and just let the shot count fall where it may.
First thing I noticed was the stepped-down nose of the hammer is a diameter that would want to catch on the -113 size O-rings I planned to use for the buffer. So I improvised an arbor to let me chuck up the hammer in my drill press and grind down the diameter with an emery wheel.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5244)
It's hardened steel so taking off 25 thousandths took a bit of time but it turned out nicely:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5245)
The first two O-ring combinations I tried dropped the velocity too much. The third try was a simple pair of 50 durometer silicone O-rings and that gave me the ~450fps velocity I was looking for.
Then over to the chronograph with a fresh CO2 cartridge and it produced 84 shots inside of an 8% ES with an average velocity of 459fps (3.7fpe) using 7.9gr CPHP. Total energy was 311fpe. Nothing special but more than a 50% improvement over stock. I can live with that :)
As an aside, if I hadn't managed to find an O-ring combination that worked, the next step would have been to take an arrangement that was somewhat close to my goal and then either shim up the O-ring stack height or sand down the O-rings to reduce it. Very small differences of just a few thousandths can have a big effect so that's why it's nice if you happen to be working with a hammer that has an adjustable striker...can fine tune things that way rather than fussing about with the height of the O-ring stack).
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Think I'll stop now and wait for warmer/hot weather.
Have been caught in the past with co2 tuned up in mild weather, only to find that it shot SLOW in warm/hot weather (although if I shot at a fast enough pace for the gun to self-cool, it got back up to "normal" speeds).
Higher temps = higher gas pressure = higher valve closing force. So a co2 rifle tuned for opitimal gas use at room temp (say 74F)will sometimes be kind of strangled off/slow at 88fF.
I'll wait a month or two before seeking out the last 8-9 shots in that string.
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Okay, I think I've found a satisfactory balance of shot count for the effort.
After seeing the other day it's possible to hit the spoon spinners at 25 yards with confidence and the rat spinner at 43 yards more often than not, I decided I didn't want to trade off much velocity to get the total fpe up. So this morning I set out to try O-ring buffer combinations until the velocity dropped off to about 90% of maximum and just let the shot count fall where it may.
First thing I noticed was the stepped-down nose of the hammer is a diameter that would want to catch on the -113 size O-rings I planned to use for the buffer. So I improvised an arbor to let me chuck up the hammer in my drill press and grind down the diameter with an emery wheel.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/CP1-M/hammer%20before_zps3o8pncjo.jpg)
It's hardened steel so taking off 25 thousandths took a bit of time but it turned out nicely:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/CP1-M/hammer%20after_zpsqxxk5gcz.jpg)
The first two O-ring combinations I tried dropped the velocity too much. The third try was a simple pair of 50 durometer silicone O-rings and that gave me the ~450fps velocity I was looking for.
Then over to the chronograph with a fresh CO2 cartridge and it produced 84 shots inside of an 8% ES with an average velocity of 459fps (3.7fpe) using 7.9gr CPHP. Total energy was 311fpe. Nothing special but more than a 50% improvement over stock. I can live with that :)
As an aside, if I hadn't managed to find an O-ring combination that worked, the next step would have been to take an arrangement that was somewhat close to my goal and then either shim up the O-ring stack height or sand down the O-rings to reduce it. Very small differences of just a few thousandths can have a big effect so that's why it's nice if you happen to be working with a hammer that has an adjustable striker...can fine tune things that way rather than fussing about with the height of the O-ring stack).
Not following you on the part about the nose needing to pass through the -113 0-rings- my problem, nothing to do w/the explanation. I've not had the valve out of mine to know what relationship your pair of O-rings has to the face of the striker.
Anyway, will my crude rendering below work to reduce the travel of the valve? The O-rings would act as a bumper, and the nose would hold them in place by stretching them over the nose so no need to reduce the OD. I'm sure there's a good reason this will not work but I had to ask, I don't have access to my gun to see for myself. In practice I would probably opt for a solid spacer against the 'flange' then a single O-ring for the bumper, instead of 2 O-rings.
Thanks for this thread- best I've seen.
(http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/b/bd/O-ring_bumper_mrod_cp1m.jpg)
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I'll see if I can explain. For the O-ring buffer to do its thing, the O-rings need to remain against the valve. As it was, the nose of the striker was a diameter that a -113 size O-ring will stretch over when the striker comes flying forward. That would cause the O-ring to compress radially between the striker and the tube, thus when you go to pull the hammer back for the next shot, it would tend to pull the O-ring back with it.
What happens next becomes unpredictable. I suspect more often than not, the O-ring would roll off the end of the striker somewhere along the way. Then when you fire and the hammer flings forward, it picks up the O-ring and it acts as a friction brake for an unpredictable portion of the hammer's travel. The result is an inconsistent hammer strike from shot to shot.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5246)
Or worse, the O-ring rolls off and tumbles over inside the tube. Once that happens, pretty much have to take the gun apart to deal with it. So long as the O-ring stays butted against the valve, it can't tumble over like that, and making sure the striker's nose doesn't contact its inside diameter will keep that from happening.
Regarding the possibility of using hard spacer and a single O-ring, I don't think the proportions of the actual parts will allow that to work very well. It's kinda hard to explain but the nose is just long enough that it would fully accommodate one -113 O-ring in whole and half of another. That is to say your spacer would have to be thicker than a single O-ring--any thinner and the nose will reach in and grab the single O-ring--and at that point there isn't a sufficient blend of travel and compliance to give you the right mix of valve lift and dwell. If instead you have the thickness of 2 or 3 O-rings to play with, you can mix and match O-ring durometers and thin spacers to get the results you want.
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Got it. I'll give this more consideration once I get a chance to put hands on mine.
In my idea, the O-ring(s)/spacer were not to contact the tube in any way. In other words I had envisioned the O-ring to be proud of the end of the striker nose, but not in contact w/the tube the striker moves in. Seeing as how limited the space is for that to happen, a round cross section O-ring ain't gonna work. But it'll take me seeing what I'm dealing with to make any useful contributions, though (if then, even). Thanks for the input.
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Hmm?
Why not turn a piece of delrin the same thickness as the two O-rings?
Is the hammer to hard to turn to carve an O-ring groove to hold the O-ring?
Is there room on the valve body to cut an O-ring groove so the O-ring isn't traveling, hence coming off the striker?
I haven't tore down my two CP-1M's yet, so just flipping out some ideas....
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In my idea, the O-ring(s)/spacer were not to contact the tube in any way.
Oh okay, I was basing my modified sketch on the -113 size O-rings as described in my writeup.
In other words I had envisioned the O-ring to be proud of the end of the striker nose, but not in contact w/the tube the striker moves in.
How do you plan to support the O-ring, keeping it proud of the end of the striker and simultaneously keeping it concentric to both the hammer and tube? By gluing it to a spacer behind it which is closely fitted to the nose of the hammer?
Whatever the method, I think a single O-ring will not have sufficient compliance (squish) to work well. Not impossible, just unlikely.
I suppose an alternative could be to find a piece of rubber tubing whose ID is a snug fit to the nose of the hammer, but whose OD is small enough to not drag the inside the tube. Then cut a piece long enough that it just barely allows the hammer to contact the valve stem, and gradually sand down its length by way of trial and error until you get the velocity tradeoff you're looking for.
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Why does it have to be an o ring? Can't it be a small spring with an ID slightly larger than the hammers adjustable striker OD?
The spring could be captured in the face of the hammer and the adjustable striker could be set for the proper preload. Or maybe the spring could cause more bounce than a o ring, Just my 2 cents. Bob
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Why not turn a piece of delrin the same thickness as the two O-rings?
...And then place a single O-ring against the valve? You could but the result would be insufficient valve lift to do anything useful.
Is the hammer to hard to turn to carve an O-ring groove to hold the O-ring?
Very hard, indeed. It's do-able but it seems like a lot of trouble compared to simply reducing the diameter of the nose which allows the use of a more conventional and versatile O-ring stack.
Is there room on the valve body to cut an O-ring groove so the O-ring isn't traveling, hence coming off the striker?
I don't remember for certain but I think there's enough meat on the valve to do that (at least it's true of the vast majority of valves I've dealt with). The issue just comes back to having only a single O-ring for tuning.
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Bob, I think it's fair to say a couple of O-rings acts like a very short, stiff spring with a highly progressive spring rate. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the practicality of making a compression spring that would fit into this type of space that has the right characteristics.
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Jason, what holds the 2, -113 O-rings in place- are they just pushed inside the tube, against the face of the valve?
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Right, just placed against the valve. Some like to use a heavy grease to help keep them in place, just be sure to remove any remnants that could slow down the hammer.
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Okay, I'm sure that's a better setup. Just so I don't repeat your too-slow combinations, do you remember what durometer/material the first two were? Because for my money, this looks to be better than anything else so far, and the low cost and simplicity ices the cake for me!
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Yeah, the first was a 70 and a 90, and the second was a 70 and a 50. Those combinations were slow...something like 200fps and 330fps, respectively...ridiculously quiet too. If I were going to use it exclusively for 10m duty, one of those might have been fun to try.
The winning configuration of two 50 durometer gave almost twice as many shots with very little change in velocity, but I have no idea how similar others will be. For example, just the slightest variation in valve stem projection would have a profound effect so be prepared to experiment. Just a reminder that you can also sand down your O-rings or use spacers to tweak the results.
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Got it, thanks again- good stuff.
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Almost where I want it. There is plenty of wood to carve off to get a good match style grip.
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Have an unexpected day off.
Other than a lunch date, will work on this conversion (simple as it is).
Going to turn this:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/co2/6ae6cafd-a122-43a3-83c6-6526de1eead4.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/co2/6ae6cafd-a122
-43a3-83c6-6526de1eead4.jpg.html)
Into this (manipulated photo):
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/co2/87AF7E9E-7B91-907F-6565-839E904B4F4E.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/co2/87AF7E9E-7B91-907F-6565-839E904B4F4E.jpg.html)
May as well make the upper stock section thinner while I am at it.
Then, while the first coat of finish cures, will start tacking the metal work. Will shorten the barrel, shorten the shroud, and have it all end up about like the photo at the bottom.
Power isn't th goal...accuracy and shot count are...so don't really care how much velocity/energy it loses (it's already low-slow-n-quiet).
Doubt I'll go with finger grooves, but I will get rid of that useless rectangular shelf and have the grip lenght end about 1/8"-1/4" below my hand.
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Well, might as well chime in- I'm also in the process (very early in, I might add) of resculpting the grip. Don't know who designed these but IMO they should stick to farm implements and leave pistol grips to those who shoot pistols!
@rrdstarr That's coming along nicely! Don't know if finger grooves are something I want to try or not, given my less-than-stellar woodworking skills. In the photo below the pencil lines are barely visible that I made based on the tracing from my Ruger Mk 3:
(http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/f/f7/RUGER_M3_OVER_CP1M_GRIP_RESHAPE1.jpg)
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Almost where I want it. There is plenty of wood to carve off to get a good match style grip.
That is nice work. What tools do u use to shape the finger grooves?
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Ridgid drum and belt sander.
Also have a Foredom for detail stuff!
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Wish someone would list one in member classifieds. I'd grab it.
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Almost where I want it. There is plenty of wood to carve off to get a good match style grip.
Didn't mean to display the 9 1/2" Damascus tanto! But it is another work in progress, just waiting for Cocobolo to arrive!
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Wish someone would list one in member classifieds. I'd grab it.
Paul,
They're still $89 shipped.... http://yhst-139878093962642.stores.yahoo.net/mrcpmushco2t.html (http://yhst-139878093962642.stores.yahoo.net/mrcpmushco2t.html)
Not a bad price for what it is.
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Yeah but Mrod air doesn't take paypal (I even called and talked to the owner) and that is where I have all my funds for this hobby. If they did, I would have two of these in .177 and .22 and a plinkster as well. That's why I am hoping someone posts one in the classifieds someday.
Thank you anyways, though.
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Ridgid drum and belt sander.
Also have a Foredom for detail stuff!
Perfect, Thank you.
I have a drum sander and Foresum tool that my dad left me years ago that I do not use a lot. Thank you and once again, very nice work.
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Clap Clap Clap. Bravo Jason. I think the o-ring buffer (Bstaley) mod is the way to go. Still cold in my basement (56) so the velocity isn't as high as I'd like. But I was able to get 90 shots above 300 FPS and averaged 424 fps. Total energy was still crappy (I think 260 FPE) but I'm happy with this average FPS and shot count, especially for such a tame pistol.
My o-ring stack ended up at 1 016 O-ring, and 2 113 O-rings, all 70 duro, which makes perfect sense since every one of these pistols are so much different.
I had s-laughtered my stock spring, so I called up MRODAIR and they sent me one right away along with the missing spring guide that I had emailed them about when I received the pistol (LOL. Just kidding. ;D ;D We all know better). I actually found these springs on Zoro (https://www.zoro.com/value-brand-compress-spring-stock-12-in-l-pk3-1nbw9/i/G1822615/) and thought I'd give them a shot, they are much longer, but cut to length they are almost a dead ringer for the stock hammer spring on these pistols. Super easy to cock, about .050" preload, works great. I'd recommend anyone in need of some 3/8" OD springs with not many coils to give them a shot (they are 6 coils/inch).
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Very nice, I'm glad you figured out an arrangement that worked to extend the shot count. Considering the recent $12 / 40pk CO2 deals that have been going on at Amazon and Walmart, it's nice not having to swap cartridges so often even if the expense is insignificant. And I think 260fpe at 56F from an 8" barrel in .177 cal is quite good. I wouldn't be surprised if you surpass my 310fpe at a similar temperature.
I had s-laughtered my stock spring, so I called up MRODAIR and they sent me one right away along with the missing spring guide that I had emailed them about when I received the pistol (LOL. Just kidding. ;D ;D We all know better).
Man, that first part had me confused for a moment. Thought maybe you briefly inhabited an alternate reality.
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How does the grip feel? I have very large hands xxxl gloves. Yea I'm a big ol boy. Most pistols I've tried feel like kids toys in my hands. Do these grips have some meat on them? Thanks
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How does the grip feel? I have very large hands xxxl gloves. Yea I'm a big ol boy. Most pistols I've tried feel like kids toys in my hands. Do these grips have some meat on them? Thanks
"Like I'm holding a 2x4" is the most accurate description I've seen. My hands are long and skinny and it fits fine, if your hands are wide, you may not have enough room between the palm shelf and the trigger.
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How does the grip feel? I have very large hands xxxl gloves. Yea I'm a big ol boy. Most pistols I've tried feel like kids toys in my hands. Do these grips have some meat on them? Thanks
The diameter is about 5-1/4" at the top of the grip, widening to about 6-3/4" near the shelf at the bottom of the grip. They're larger on average than my Glock 22 (5-5/8" top to bottom). But for me personally it wasn't just the diameter of the CP-1M grip- it also sports too much angle, the shape makes for a too high hand position and accentuates the 'broken wrist' hold it makes the shooter use. The grip is too far from the trigger to permit a decent hold further towards the middle of the grip and the plank across the bottom serves no purpose for my way of shooting.
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the plank across the bottom serves no purpose for my way of shooting.
Hear! hear! Once I start carving, that is going to be the first thing to go.
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I just p'shopped this, it's rather crude but does show what I was trying to say regarding the distance from the trigger and the weird shape to the back side of the grip compared to a Ruger Mark .22- which is already about as slanted as any gun out there, while still being a comfortable gun in hand (to me anyway). The triggers of both guns are laying one atop the other.
(http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/9/93/Overlay.jpg)
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I dug out my 177 cal cp-1m and tossed a few across a chrony inside. my trap is 15 feet from my table.
first 2 shots went into the same hole. I actually pushed a rod down the barrel to be certain it fired. LoL
I am using a cheapie crosman copperhead red dot on it. I like the very small form of that red dot and with 2 levels of lighting it works well enough. only downside is the dot covers the 1" bullseye (though part of that is my old @@@ eyes), so i was quite surprised it literally stacked the pellets. 3rd shot tore a ragged hole and then i began to adjust for zero as she was a tad left and low, though i only adjusted for the windage.
I was shooting the 6.9 RWS pellets and getting 516 fps average over 5 shots for 4.08 FPE. chairgun says i still have a tad over 3 fpe at 25 yards.
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OK, so I paid the $89 cover charge for this thread (thank you enablers) and received my CP1-M the other day...So far happy with the pistol.
The earlier comment of the grip feeling like grabbing a 2x4 is pretty close...so my question is: have some of the posters that were mapping out changes to the grip done any reshaping yet?
I'm new to the target pistol configuration so I'm not sure what features to keep. I do want to use this pistol to learn a one hand hold so I don't want to start carving it in the direction of my 2240 or p17.
My hands are reasonably large so in general the grip fits OK but feels like it is contacting in discrete points and I don't think I grip it the same way each time.
So any guidance I could use, mostly in what to keep to make it consistent with a target grip?
Finger grooves should be a start, minor reshape to get more full contact? deepen the thumb groove?
Thanks
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OK, so I paid the $89 cover charge for this thread (thank you enablers) and received my CP1-M the other day...So far happy with the pistol.
The earlier comment of the grip feeling like grabbing a 2x4 is pretty close...so my question is: have some of the posters that were mapping out changes to the grip done any reshaping yet?
I'm new to the target pistol configuration so I'm not sure what features to keep. I do want to use this pistol to learn a one hand hold so I don't want to start carving it in the direction of my 2240 or p17.
My hands are reasonably large so in general the grip fits OK but feels like it is contacting in discrete points and I don't think I grip it the same way each time.
So any guidance I could use, mostly in what to keep to make it consistent with a target grip?
Finger grooves should be a start, minor reshape to get more full contact? deepen the thumb groove?
Thanks
Check the bottom of page 4, that is what I have done, so far.
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Rick,
I saw those, great design. Did you start with new wood rather than the original grip? Could you take a picture of the grip in your hand at some point?
If you don't mind commenting on some of the features you put in and why.
Sorry for the newbie questions.
Stan
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That was the original stock grip, shall do the same to my .177.
I will follow fairly closely what my Pardini K10 grips look like.
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Thanks,
I also found some of the grip fitting articles on the USAS site from '09.
I was thinking of creating a wider/longer shelf by attaching to the underside..not adjustable but larger.
Starting to collect images of grips....That Pardini is nice
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Just ordered mine; does anyone have any experience with the 5.5 grain GTO's through the .177 version of the CP1-M?
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Just got mine a few days ago as well, took a little over a week to get to CA.
Note it took a lot of force to break the bolt free. I was afraid I was going to bend the bolt handle.
Some oil and 50 shots later it is now much smoother but the first few were really rough.
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How do you like it?
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Happy with it. I hope to use it to learn a little about target shooting. I'm sure I'll enjoy tinkering with the grip to get it more personalized. I'll stay with open sights for a while as I try to learn technique.
As was mentioned earlier, don't expect any shipping tracking info from Mrodair. It will just show up.
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I made a start on a shelf. Had a piece of 2.5 x 3/4 inch oak. Cut down .4" deep to be roughly flush with the grip. Right now it is just a snug fit.
I'll shoot with this for a while to see if it helps. Since I have not used target grips before, comments on adjustments that I should try would be great...I still have a foot of the oak board left. :D
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Not to change the subject but the comment about difficulty closing the bolt reminded me that my bolt had a sharp perimeter where it stepped up to the full diameter. The original O-ring in the barrel was chewed up as a result. I removed the burr and polished it, and it's easier to close the bolt now and the new O-ring has about 750 pellets through it and there is no blowby.
Just something to check when you have it apart.
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Jason,
Thank you for the o-ring list earlier. I've yet to do a shot count/chrony run. This thread will be invaluable if mods are needed.
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I thought I would add the chrony/shot count data from my .177 CP1-M. This is the second powerlet through the gun. Results look consistent with what others have posted in April.
Jason or others that did the double o-ring bumper mod, is that working well, consistent speed/shot count?
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Jason or others that did the double o-ring bumper mod, is that working well, consistent speed/shot count?
I've just been shooting it and enjoying it since the modification. I haven't run it across the chronograph again but the velocity seems stable because I still use the same POA to hit the spoon spinners at 25 yards.
Normally I do expect the initial tune of an O-ring buffer to drift slightly after some time and I attribute that to slight compression set of the O-rings caused by the hammer spring preload persistently pressing on them. With the CP1-M, there is virtually no preload and I think that's why it has not drifted.
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I made a start on a shelf. Had a piece of 2.5 x 3/4 inch oak. Cut down .4" deep to be roughly flush with the grip. Right now it is just a snug fit.
I'll shoot with this for a while to see if it helps. Since I have not used target grips before, comments on adjustments that I should try would be great...I still have a foot of the oak board left. :D
I have Oak too, treads for the stairs, and now wonder if adding the "Platform" would better support my Mongo size hands?
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I went back and made the cavity .05" deeper so that it engaged my hand better...That said, I'm still trying to figure out this one hand, broken wrist shooting hold so the shelf is one more variable
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Nevermind. :-X
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Is the Mrodair CP1-M as accurate as the Beeman P17?
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I have both the P17 and the CP1 though both are new to me. In my hands they are comparable, though I expect with time and some grip optimization, I will do better with the CP1. Take a look at the 5m match gate results. There are a couple of people shooting CP1's very well.
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Regarding the Mrodair CP1-M pistols for $89:
Do the front sights still need to be shimmed about 3/8 inch?
Does Mrodair sell the shim and longer screw?
Do the new ones come with the trigger set screw or just a threaded hole?
Does the muzzle brake reduce the noise?
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I've been shooting at the 5 meter targets with a 6 o'clock hold and the sights are OK (though the rear sight is all the way down so a shim may be a good addition). 3/8" sounds like a lot.
I have not taken the trigger guard off to adjust that screw yet but it looks like it is in there.
I doubt the muzzle brake does too much, though in .177 the noise is not too bad. I think I'll add the o-ring buffer to the valve and that should reduce noise a bit more
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So, to try to answer the accuracy question, I tried some shots with the CP1 held in a vise...first time I ever tried this.
Unfortunately the only place I could clamp the vise and still have some range is on a tool cart. It is heavy but can still move, especially when loading wadcutters.
Even with that, the results are pretty good and much better than I can hold.
These were 5 shots and 5 meters, Crosman wadcutters .177.
The down side to this is that I can't blame the CP1 for what shows up on the target... ::)
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Jason,
Do you have a source for the silicone 50 durometer -113 o-rings for the valve buffer mod? I could find silicone in 70 or Nitrile in 50 but not the silicone in 50
Thanks
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Pretty sure I ordered them from Amazon but just PM me your address and I'll put some in an envelope.
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Pls disregard/
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Jason,
Do you have a source for the silicone 50 durometer -113 o-rings for the valve buffer mod? I could find silicone in 70 or Nitrile in 50 but not the silicone in 50
Thanks
Stan,
I'd give it a whirl with any 113 o-rings you can find to start. I ended up with 2 70 duro 113 and 1 70d 016 nitrile o-rings to get mine in the sweet spot. These pistols seem to all respond differently. I searched to the end of the earth for the silicone o-rings also and figured I'd just try it with what I had, worked great. Much better than anything else I'd tried.
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Good point on the variability and tolerances.
What speed numbers did you settle on? Mine will be for paper punching so low 400's is OK
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Good point on the variability and tolerances.
What speed numbers did you settle on? Mine will be for paper punching so low 400's is OK
At 56 degrees, mine was running 420-430ish. I could get over 70 shots above 400, and shot 84 was the first one under 300 FPS using 7.9gr CPHP pellets. I haven't re-checked it since it's warmed up here in the north, but it is definitely a blast to shoot when it's 75 degrees out, seems to go on forever.
Mine is also just for paper punching (and those little metal spinner resettable targets that you can get for $20, it's JUST enough energy for that at 20 yards).
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I'm hoping to get mid 400's using the 5.5 GTO non lead. Just hoping they group, you know? No pistol yet :'(
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So I decided to look at the trigger assembly....
The good news was that the grub screw was in there...on the other hand they installed it from the top so it was trying to cookie cut into the sear.
Some smooth and polish, flip the grub screw, round and polish, lube
Using my DIY trigger gauge, the pull dropped 4 oz. to 1lb, 10 oz.
I set the grub screw about .030" proud. Has anyone played around with that number, or tried the dual grub screw 2 stage mod?
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Some discussion of the CM1 trigger HERE (http://www.network54.com/Forum/113813/thread/1493477556/last-1494593288/Expand+Thread).
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I did add the second screw to mine, I didn't measure it after I was done though. I do like it better (I have an affinity for short final break triggers, single stage or 2 stage) and I'd recommend it if you have the tools. I used #6-32 set screws for everything and even retapped the metric screws to #6-32 just to keep everything cohesive.
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I was trying to figure out if you can set the grub screw height so the trigger transitions from the grub to the edge of the trigger to break. Might need a ball tip screw to make that more controllable. A bushing on the pin would set the first stage travel.
Otherwise I'll add the second grub screw like you did.
Mark, thank you for the link
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I did some more tinkering with the trigger. I tried a couple of bushings on the pin and a couple of heights on the grub screw.
First tried a .045" wall bushing and a .034" grub screw height. This is too much and the sear does not hold.
Then dropped the grub screw height to .012" This had almost no travel.
Switched to a .025" wall bushing and the .012" grub height. I think I feel a first/second stage so I'll shoot this for a while, with maybe a few more tweaks.
One interesting note, the trigger has a lighter break on the grub than on the back edge by some 6 oz.I think most of this is due to the geometry. So using the grub is an easy way to get some reduction even without changing the spring.
I think I'll get another grub and try to shape it into a dome for better adjustabilty. Though I may end up with the 2 grub approach for staging
Having fun with this gun
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Just to close out on my trigger ramblings. I've been using the 5M match targets and range http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=36.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=36.0) to see if things are improving.
So for a new pistol, relatively novice shooter, two handed, I started in the low to mid 130's, typically pulling a handful of shots.
After the trigger tweaks, I shot a couple of sheets, they were in the low 140's with much fewer pulls.
For a little bit of time and one bushing invested, I'm happy with the change.
Though I'm sure I'll tinker with it some more.
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Wish I could average ~ 9.5 per shot for 15 shots with mine.
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You know, I ordered my pistol on 5-24 and it still hasn't arrived. I'm bumming - was really hoping to get a chance to use it this weekend, but knowing my luck it won't show up today either :'(
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Mine took 13 days.
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I think mine took about 11 or 12 days to get to CA
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I got excited; I thought I saw a couple folk got theirs in 3 days and 5 days...it is what it is...
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I feel your pain. Especially when you miss out on an entire weekend to get to play. For some...most of us, that's the only prime time we have to give to our hobby. It doesn't help for me to say but I think it will still be worth the wait. I took aim at a sparrow...about...18-20 yards up high atop a palm tree and didn't think I'd even get the pellet close enough to scare him when all the sudden he went twirling downward to his demise. I'm diggin' this little bugger more and more and it's been only a couple of days.
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I got it! Played Friday night with it. Pretty accurate with the 5.5 grain GTO pellet. The loading cycle is HARSH and I can't figure out how to use the magazine...single loading only. Really like the grip and it LOOKS purpose built. Not bad for less then $100...
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The loading cycle is HARSH
There were a couple of things that remedied the harsh loading on mine. Firstly, the bolt has a sharp edge where it steps up to the full diameter. That was chewing up the O-ring in the barrel each time a pellet was loaded. I chucked up the bolt in my drill press and spun it while gently touching the sharp edge with a rubber Dremel polishing wheel. Just enough to break the sharp edge. That type of polishing wheel left a cloudy finish so I stepped over to the cloth polishing wheel with a fine polishing compound and put a mirror finish on it. Then I replaced the O-ring with a 90 durometer Buna-N and I've since put about 1000 pellets through it and the O-ring still looks good. Mine's a .177 and I didn't have a M1.5x4.5 so I used a -008 with the outside diameter abraded down until it fit neatly into the barrel recess.
The other issue was that wadcutters would hang up when loading...
Wadcutters were hanging at the leading edge of the receiver, which I noticed first while using the single shot tray. I went ahead and addressed it before I had even tried the magazine. Once I did try the mag, I did not have to make any mods to it.
The way I beveled it was with a small ball-shaped carbide burr. I think it was a 3/8" diameter (mine is a .177 cal but I suspect a 3/8" ball would work just fine for .22 cal as well). Just pressed the ball against the receiver opening for the bolt, spun it at slow speed in a handheld drill and it made quick work of the soft aluminum.
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Hey, thanks for the help! I don't have some of the tools you have, but I think with a dremel and some inventiveness, I can get something similar done. At least give it a try! The deal was pretty dang good IMO for this little rig. The grip alone is way more then I expected. I have some grooving/scratching on the barrel, but it's not major. All around better quality then I expected for the money. Try to get some of those fixes you've suggested done tomorrow; out hunting after work today!
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Do your mags not load into the slot like one of my two didn't? I just tightened the philips screw holding the clear cover a little bit.
If you meant loading the mags, I twist the clear cover in a direction so that the pellet holder inside moves along with it. It hits a stop and you hold it there, turn it upside down and load a pellet "backward" or so that the pellet is inserted with the skirt facing down, release your grip and it holds that pellet in place. Flip the mag around and now only the clear cover will rotate. Rotate it and place the remaining pellets in one at a time and you're good to go.
I found that my o-ring was chewed up from the factory and replaced it with an improper o-ring that makes it harder to load now. But it works until I get replacements. Even with it the way it is it's definitely an accurate little bugger.
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Thanks for the magazine info; I was doing nothing like that. I was loading it like it was a PRod magazine. I'll give that a try! It comes with a single shot tray and I promptly took that out to put in the magazine and when I couldn't get that to work, I just tried hand loading. That became a pita so I went and tracked down where I put the single shot tray and voila! Back to shooting!
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I will do the clean up mods that Jason suggested. In the meantime, some pellgunoil and cycling a bunch of pellets through helped a bunch. I do make sure wadcutters don't tip as the bolt closes. That seems to help as well.
enjoy the new gun
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I used my magazines once. Seemed like the mags/repeater was a great idea but in practice, I find them much less useful than I had imagined them to be. I still carry them when I woods walk just in case, but I haven't used the mags since. Good part is, this saved me quite a bit of money by showing me I didn't need a repeater conversion for my QB78! So it's all good.
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Myself, I found just the opposite. I love using the mags over the single pellet tray. Due to my crappola O-ring I'm using the pellet feeds crooked with the mags or spt so I rather have the convenience of the mags by a large margin.
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Myself, I found just the opposite. I love using the mags over the single pellet tray. Due to my crappola O-ring I'm using the pellet feeds crooked with the mags or spt so I rather have the convenience of the mags by a large margin.
I'm with you.... started designing a repeater breech for my 2400, I find it much easier to load pellets into a magazine on the table than single file under a scope....
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Did one final (??) tweak to the trigger. Wanted a little bit longer first stage so I used a 0.018 inch wall thickness bushing on the rest pin under the trigger and protruded the grub screw 0.018" on top. This makes the total height of trigger and grub screw 0.137 inches. Tolerances in other CP1's may be slightly different. I made the spacer out of brass that I had but most anything should work. A 7/64 drill works well for the bushing ID....Now to look for a softer sear spring. If you are looking for a sear spring, it needs to sit inside a .115 inch hole on the sear side and a .136 hole in the tube. I'll go check out the tire valve springs as was suggested.
I also started shooting RWS Diabolo Basics (.177) in the gun.....they fall out the muzzle if you point it down (no I don't have a .22).....On the other hand they are very accurate in my CP1. Since i'm paper punching, I'll keep shooting them and remember to keep the nose up.
Happy with the CP1
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I implemented the valve buffer as Jason described. On mine, the double -113 D50 o-rings dropped the speed down to the low 300's, so using a combination of one -113 d50 and one -016 D70 worked out great, see chart below. Almost doubled the shot count with the speed in the low 400's. Just what I was looking for, Thank you Jason. In the chart, I shot 5M target sets between the chrony strings.
Solving the pellet feed took a little bit more measurement. Turns out on my CP1 the breech end of the barrel was almost .002" smaller than the crown end. The resulting rough feed would size the pellets down to the smaller diameter and they could literally fall out the barrel if it was pointed down. This was especially true with the RWS wadcutters. I made a plastic pin gauge the same size as the crown and opened up the breech end using Dremel stone points (by hand) until it was the same size as the crown end. This solved the pellet sizing issue and got rid of most of the feed glitch. I may still do Jason's fix to the receiver opening since it seems to catch the tip of the wadcutters.
I also rounded the edge of the trigger blade per Mark's description in the other thread. Turns out my trigger blade is angled slightly towards the left hand side so this edge clean up really helped my right handed use. Just need to find a lighter sear spring to go with the mod I described earlier and the trigger will be done.
Thank you for all the inputs and help. This turned into a really nice shooter.
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That string looks awesome! Stan, is that string done with the factory hammer spring? Any other power related mods besides the O-ring buffer?
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Hi Stan, that's great to hear. I'm glad you got it set up. It's so nice stretching out a powerlet like that. I hope you are having fun with it.
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Mark,
Stock hammer spring, no other powerplant changes. Just some polish and lube on the hammer. Also turned down the nose of the hammer to .495" to fit inside the o-rings so it is a tiny bit lighter (came in at 344 gm)
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Okay, thanks- that's outstanding! I'm going to try some different O-ring buffer combinations to see if I can get closer to what you are getting. Using 2, -113s from Ace (unknown duro) I'm getting around 350 fps but the ES is too wide. I'm going to turn the nose down a little more, just in case there's some interference there causing the variations.
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When I had the two -113's I was down around 330 and would have a 100 ft/s spread.
I put the -016 against the valve since the hammer ledge has a bevel.
The other option I was considering was to make a tool to hold the -113 and the incrementally abrade it down to a thickness that works. probably need to take at least .020" off of it. My valve tip sticks up about .100-.110"
Today I started getting a few duds. I think the -113 is sticking to the hammer and tilting in the tube. If it persists, I'll tack the o-ring stack to the valve.
Otherwise I'm amazed how quiet and recoil free the CP1 is in the low 400's.
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That hammer weight is not right at 344 gm. I think I slipped a decimal point.
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Jason or others that are familiar with the valve buffer via o-rings approach. Is the velocity predominantly controlled by the o-rings height and stiffness and the hammer spring is less of a tuning influence, probably because the o-ring stack stiffness is non linear?
I was thinking of a way to add an external power adjuster by adjusting the spring preload, but if the o-rings dominate this may not be useful. Are there systems out there that effectively use both the o-ring stack and a spring power adjuster?
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.177 or .22?
I think I'm ready to order... but which cal? I have lots and lots of .22 pellets and only a few .177. Is there a preference for this particular pistol?
Thanks...
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.177 or .22?
I think I'm ready to order... but which cal? I have lots and lots of .22 pellets and only a few .177. Is there a preference for this particular pistol?
Thanks...
My answer depends on what the .22 guys are getting for velocity. I'm getting about 65 shots over 420 FPS and 84 shots if I move my cutoff to 300 fps. If the .22 is about the same velocity, I'd say go that way, if it's comparatively slower, I personally wouldn't want it. But I've never found a solid answer on how fast and for how many shots the .22 carries on....
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Report on one CP1-M in .22, from HERE (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=95892.0):
“Velocity with 14.3gr premier was 350”, and “Went out this morning and installed a heavier spring, velocity with Premiers went from 350fps to 435fps”. Finally this: “Took the gun apart today, barrel port wasn't quite lined up with the transfer port, size was about .138 in all ports so I took them to .140 using a number bit. I put the original spring back in and I did one shot before I came into the house, it shot at 463fps. I think I will leave it right there unless I make a longer barrel for it.”
I can attest to the TP/breech misalignment- it was on mine as well. More on how I dealt w/it, along w/trigger, etc. is HERE (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1492210182/last-1492272034/Expand+Thread).
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Mark,
Did you find anything that also included shot count (or better yet a full shot string)? I found a few hints that the .177 and .22 shoot the same velocity, I just couldn't find anything regarding shot count. Information is all over the map on these.
I will say though, that I wouldn't be scared to buy one in either caliber.
Edit: Great write up on the yellow BTW!
Kevin
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Kevin, I haven't seen much at all re shot counts, especially for unmodded guns. If I run across anything good I'll post it. And thanks!
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Stan, adjusting the hammer spring preload can definitely be used to tune an O-ring buffer. The effect isn't quite as dramatic as without an O-ring buffer but still a very useful approach. I've done it a number of times with good results.
For the sake of completeness, an adjustable nose on the hammer is a more versatile way of tuning. Picture a set screw that you can run in or out to change how far the hammer reaches into the O-ring stack to hit the valve stem. It's more or less the same effect as fine tuning the height of the O-ring stack by either adding shims or abrading the O-rings. However that's not really in the cards unless you can make your own hammer because factory hammers are typically heat treated (can't simply drill and tap for a set screw).
So back to adjusting the hammer spring, I'll usually look for a way to make it externally adjustable. The fact the end cap is drilled and tapped for the stock attachment screw makes it less convenient to do, and since I lucked out with the O-ring buffer, I didn't devote a lot of thought on how to do it. Before doing anything fancy, you might want to try just adding a couple of flat washers at the end of the spring and see if it has the desired result. It shouldn't take very many iterations. Just takes 2 or 3 shots check the velocity, then add or remove washers until you get the speed you want. They you can move on to running a full cartridge to see how much the shot count has improved compared to stock form.
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Regarding the .22 caliber versus .177, attempting to get the velocity up to anywhere near the .177 will burn through CO2. Consider this comparison, 450fps for an 8gr .177 represents 3.6fpe. 450fps for a 14.3gr .22 represents 6.4fpe, which is almost 80% more energy. Think of a 12gr CO2 cartridge as having a finite amount of energy contained inside. We can't expect 80 shots at 3.6fpe (288fpe total) and the same count at 6.4fpe (512fpe total).
With a more modest tune, you can expect a somewhat higher energy total in .22 cal. It's been a while since I've looked at the numbers but I want to say something like 25% more energy is typical. So maybe 80 shots at 4.5fpe in .22 cal is feasible, which is a 14.3gr at 375fps. Again, just a ballpark number.
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yes, definitely try the washer/spacer test first, also measure how much the spring is compressed.
I saw this out of the UK, http://www.trrobb.com/SMK_CP1_Co2_target_pistol_Stainless_Steel_Adjustable_Hammer/p1449438_15674579.aspx (http://www.trrobb.com/SMK_CP1_Co2_target_pistol_Stainless_Steel_Adjustable_Hammer/p1449438_15674579.aspx) not sure how just lengthening the nose of hammer without an o-ring buffer does much unless they changed the spring compression.
Your set screw approach makes more sense.
I'd end up making a new end cap
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Instead I accidentally got this one
Interesting because I made the same mistake when I ordered mine for my 2240 way back when.
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In case anyone's needing them, 50 duro buna O-rings (http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=367_16&zenid=64f230464159297163af69a44f961770). I haven't found these in silicone but the bunas shouldn't be too far off.
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yes, definitely try the washer/spacer test first, also measure how much the spring is compressed.
I saw this out of the UK, http://www.trrobb.com/SMK_CP1_Co2_target_pistol_Stainless_Steel_Adjustable_Hammer/p1449438_15674579.aspx (http://www.trrobb.com/SMK_CP1_Co2_target_pistol_Stainless_Steel_Adjustable_Hammer/p1449438_15674579.aspx) not sure how just lengthening the nose of hammer without an o-ring buffer does much unless they changed the spring compression.
Your set screw approach makes more sense.
I'd end up making a new end cap
TR Robb has a whole buncha parts for the CP1. Two SS hammer options, Oversize trigger guard, oversize bolt handle, Exhaust valve, transfer ports, Valve body, mainspring guide, and O-ring seal set! Since I have two guns I am going to try a few parts!
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TR Robb has a whole buncha parts for the CP1. Two SS hammer options, Oversize trigger guard, oversize bolt handle, Exhaust valve, transfer ports, Valve body, mainspring guide, and O-ring seal set! Since I have two guns I am going to try a few parts!
Please post the results-I'd like to hear about these parts, especially the adjustable hammer, valve and TP! BTW, I couldn't find all the parts you mentioned. Is there a link on his site I'm missing?
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He has no "search" feature, so I have just these too pages that I found all the CP1 parts on.
http://www.trrobb.com/category/precision%20parts (http://www.trrobb.com/category/precision%20parts)
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Thanks!
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I received this set of springs from Brownells http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=16070+KIT+1607%2c+50+MINIATURE+SPRINGS&ksubmit=y (http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=16070+KIT+1607%2c+50+MINIATURE+SPRINGS&ksubmit=y) and found several that work great for trigger sear springs. One was the same size as the original but light gage wire, ended up being too light for my taste although I couldn't cause it to release by itself. The one I ended up using was about an 1' long that I cut down to the factory length, very nice light, crisp release.
Bill
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I happen to be in Hobby Lobby today. They have .015" music wire (4, 12" lengths for a buck). The stock sear spring is .020" so I though I'd try winding one. I used a .072" (15 gauge?) finishing nail as a mandrel, cross drilled a small hole to hold the wire, and spun it very slowly with my cordless. I stretched it looser than stock to keep it softer.
The trigger dropped from 2 lbs to about 15 oz, which was what I was looking for for paper punching.
Sometimes you get lucky on the first try.
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Good job! 8)
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The sear spring is not an easy one to find because of it's small size. If you don't or can't wind one yourself you can use a small spring from a tire valve stem which is about the correct size and lighter. That's what I did and I was able to adjust the trigger pull down to less than 16 oz..
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Due to some renewed chatter about the CP1-M, I decided to do a quick video shooting a Gamo reactive target at 10 meters. I'm still learning how to shoot a pistol consistently so I'm not trying to say I'm a great shot. Actually I didn't expect to be able to do this well with a red dot regardless of how good the gun is. The small paddle looks like nothing even at this distance.
The sight is a Hammers red dot with 3 dots. The multiple aim points are nice for longer distances.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hammers-Reflex-3-Dot-Crossbow-Red-Dot-Sight-1X30CB-with-Weaver-Rings/171255026935 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hammers-Reflex-3-Dot-Crossbow-Red-Dot-Sight-1X30CB-with-Weaver-Rings/171255026935)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUOqs6w_pVM&feature=player_embedded#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUOqs6w_pVM&feature=player_embedded#ws)
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Will make more sense once you see it apart.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/plink/DSCN17231.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/plink/DSCN17231.jpg.html)
The large thick brass transfer port sits down into a recess in the VALVE. It also sits up into a recess in the reciever. So basicaly, solid brass crosses from inside the valve to inside the reciever, crossing the shear line between valve and air tube.
So long as that chunk of brass is clamped down by the breech, it blocks the valve from any rearward movement (at least until the point that large thick chunk of brass is sheared/compressed and the breech fails).
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I clamp the breech to the valve/tube with a padded vise before tightening the small screw that holds the breech on. I haven't heard of failures like on Crosmans but not taking any chances, especially if the TP O-rings are changed or shimmed for a tighter fit.
From Another Airgun Blog (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2015/07/cp1-m-co2-pistol-disassembly.html):
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ySMOAlpqOX4/VbWJbLGcN4I/AAAAAAAAPJs/Vc9EVgHANR0/s400/DSCN2861.JPG)
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My poor old Gamo Knock-Down target.
Old...way before they had interchangeable plates.
But one day, walking though the back parking lot at work, I spotted a big-aze washer. TUrned out to be a metric big-aze washer, with a 10mm center hold.
So I spot weled it to the face of the old Gamo target and used it at what I thought was a reasonable 20-25 yards for a hole that size.
Mounted to a solid base, doesn't take much to flip the gamo target. The softer the stake-down/mount, the more energy it takes to flip it, but 6" spiked to hard earth ("splay foot" pattern better than parallel) it will fall from a 4 foot pound hit....not from a 4 foot pound "split".
Yes...I have abused this one over the years (can tell by its cratered nature), even smcaking it with 12ga. loads of #7 1/2 shot on occasion. Odd thing about that is that it often doesn't fall....think it depends on where the 1st's lead 7 1/2's land...if the fastest 7 1/2's land on the face of the targget, then it kind of "locks-up" the trip system, so the later center hits don't flip it.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/co2/2673db31-b4b6-431e-8870-39a418a90791.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/co2/2673db31-b4b6-431e-8870-39a418a90791.jpg.html)
Any way, rather than paper, tried my cut down, 5 foot pound, CP1 pistol against this old-dog for a single full 12gr.
Range: 20 yards (by steel tape).
Open sights: (removed the red dot)
Rest: single bag at the front.
59 shots ( you kind of blank-fire one or two off to be sure the 12gr. is popped..only counting the shots with a pellet,)
3 shot check sight-in on the squirrel's head.
56 shots at the center 10mm circle (painted contrasting colors...white and gold in this case, but I'll use any paint I happen to have at hand that contrasts).
I missed flipping the target 5 times/ 51 flips.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/air%20pistol/0bc8c103-0aa7-4123-b293-2e147c2ca5e2.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/air%20pistol/0bc8c103-0aa7-4123-b293-2e147c2ca5e2.jpg.html)
I'm not going to worry about the stuby nature of the little critter....it will do what I need doing....in fact, I will refer to it as "Stumpy" in my notes from here on.
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That's great shooting!
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That's just nuts. Averaging 9 out of 10 shots through a 0.4" hole at 20 yards with open sights. Wow, well done!
As an aside, I do like that style knockdown target. But it always bothered me that the kill zone is a gut shot so a while back I fixed it by adding a paddle behind the brain.
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Would be nice if GAmo picked up on your fine idea...
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Great idea! I'm gonna have to get me one of those and do that mod as well! That's sure amazing shooting by Ribbonstone, real old time gunslinger, you are lol! I better keep practicing, I can't do near that well at 5m! Shows what these guns are capable of!
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Hi Kevin, well I should have gotten is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0160EFOKA (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0160EFOKA)
Thanks for the tip, I just ordered one, my CP-1M arrives tomorrow...
I'm working my way through your most excellent thread here, bit by bit, trying to get ready for my new baby!
Thanks for posting so much great info!!
:-) chickie
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Stan, last night I finally got around to applying the trigger mods. I went out to the shop to see if I had something to use as a bushing around the lower pin of the the trigger group. Pretty quickly I noticed a pop rivet that was a good candidate. I just knocked out the mandrel to salvage the body, then cut away the flange and drilled out the ID to 2.5mm.
Then I took the spring from a butane lighter and cut it to the same length as the original spring.
After putting the parts back in, I had a hair trigger. It was easy to see that lowering the set screw in the trigger blade would cure it...but getting that blasted thing to turn was easier said than done. It was apparently installed with a permanent threadlocker so I reached for my mini torch to heat it up...but I couldn't get it to stay lit. No amount of adjusting the fuel flow helped so I went and grabbed a candle and held the blue part of the flame to it for 30sec and it finally let go.
Now with the screw adjusted, I was ready to try it out.
And wow, what a difference. Up until now, the trigger pull was very smooth and that's why I couldn't find the inspiration to mess with it. But with the mod done, it makes the trigger so much more predictable and there is a clear improvement in accuracy as a result.
This was my very first attempt at 25 yards after the work was done.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5291)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5290)
Thanks for heads up!
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Thanks for the tip, I just ordered one, my CP-1M arrives tomorrow...
Very nice, let us know how you like it!
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Great shooting! Just did Stan's mod as well, makes the trigger perfect for me, loving it!
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Great shooting!
I still have to touch up the leade on the barrel on mine to smooth out the pellet feed a bit more, but very happy with the pistol.
Good thing these cheap CO2 powerlet deals keep showing up on bargaingate
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That's great accuracy at 25 yards, I'm pretty sure rested I couldn't do nearly as well, not that it would be the guns fault! Still, I'd like to see how well mine is shooting, might need to figure out how to rig up a vise to give me a more stable shot. At short range it seems to like the crosman 14.3gr hps fine
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Thanks for all the tips and info in this thread!
My cp1m is shooting so well after a little simple work I ordered a spare ;D
I'm also going to try this.
https://www.btowstore.com/epages/BT3197.sf/secbbd4ee9b53/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3197/Categories/CP1M__TROPHY (https://www.btowstore.com/epages/BT3197.sf/secbbd4ee9b53/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3197/Categories/CP1M__TROPHY)
Since I'll be mostly bench rest target shooting,tethering to a 68ci, 4500psi paintball tank, should allow me to shoot for a month without needing to fill 8) The regulator output will be 850 psi, think of it as one HUGE co2 cart that's not effected by temp! I teather several guns this way, with a super thin and long micro bore hose, I don't even notice the guns tethered...
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As an aside, I do like that style knockdown target. But it always bothered me that the kill zone is a gut shot so a while back I fixed it by adding a paddle behind the brain.
Well, at least they using the tail as the kill zone :o
Nice mod, Jason!
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Mine will be here Wednesday, signed into UPS My Choice and it has had the origin scan. Right now she's in Camden AR. I wish they had the bolt on the right though.
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Wayne, I hope you like it. I just had mine out earlier this evening and it was shooting like a dream. After clearing out the resetting target at 10 meters with 5 consecutive shots, I decided to try the spoon spinners hanging out at 25 yards. Based on the sight-in the other day (target pic posted above), I tried holding the red dot just at the top of the spoons. And wow, 5 shots in a row it sent the spoons spinning. That really put a smile on my face. In the past, I've managed to hit the two tablespoons pretty consistently but struggled with the 3 teaspoons. I think the trigger mod was the last little piece of the puzzle.
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Jason I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun for plinking and honing my pistol skills. So far one thing that I really like about the SPA guns is the fact that they're made from steel and wood rather than being all plastic. Another thing that I like about them is that they seem to be made really good right down to the fit and finish. If it's anywhere near as accurate as the PP700S-A (within a reasonable distance that is) it will just make it that much more fun. From what I've been seeing about these guns the fit and finish is really good too, in normal circumstances that's just not the norm for a Chinese made product but coming from SPA all I've been seeing are fantastic guns for the price.
Both the Varmint and MKII that I have are super accurate IMO and they're really pumping out great barrels with them too.
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Hello guys, im low on money, should i the cp1 (.22) or a 2240?
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I'd go with the cp1 if you can afford it. Much better, steel breech instead of plastic, magazine. No comparison really. Plus you can get the new grips and stock for $25 if you decide you want to carbine it.
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I'd go with the cp1 if you can afford it. Much better, steel breech instead of plastic, magazine. No comparison really. Plus you can get the new grips and stock for $25 if you decide you want to carbine it.
Thank you. Wasnt quite expecting such a fast reply. Usualy i dont own CO2 guns
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Yeah, I agree with Wes. I have a 2240 and 2400KT and I prefer the CP1-M over them both. Just a few points I'd like to add:
1. Price - Like many others, I think the Crosman steel breech is an essential piece for precision shooting. By the time you add it, the difference in price disappears.
2. Fit and finish - The SPA parts fit better and the finish of the metal is nicer.
3. Trigger - The SPA trigger is vastly better which benefits both accuracy and the enjoyment of shooting. That's true whether comparing new out of the box or after polishing and tweaking.
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I'd go with the cp1 if you can afford it. Much better, steel breech instead of plastic, magazine. No comparison really. Plus you can get the new grips and stock for $25 if you decide you want to carbine it.
CARBINE STOCK?
Where, and how much?
Thanks, Rick
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Rick, it doesn't appear they are up the site yet. Seems Mike said he got some in the recent shipment but was focusing on getting guns out first before turning his attention to the accessories.
Not sure if it will end up on the CP1-M page
http://yhst-139878093962642.stores.yahoo.net/mrcpmushco2t.html (http://yhst-139878093962642.stores.yahoo.net/mrcpmushco2t.html)
or if he'll be making a separate page for the CP2.
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I too think the CP-1 is a higher quality pistol but here are some additional things to consider.
Price: Within the US, the Amazon/Walmart price wars at times have driven the 2240 under $40 ( $80 for CP-1) may make a difference for some
Size/Shape: The CP-1 is and feels larger. The grip is in places a cm larger in perimeter and the trigger is about a cm longer reach. May be an issue for smaller hands, though plenty of options for carving away. Also the CP-1 grip has a different angle, more of a target "broken wrist" hold. some like it some don't
Breech/sights: The CP-1 is better on both accounts , and you may be able to get the bolt on the side you prefer. Note: I and others had to disassemble and clean up the breech/leade on the CP-1 because of rough pellet feed (no feed issues on my 2240). For sights, if this is to be used as a pistol with open sights, I replaced the rear sight plate on the 2240 with one with a narrower slot, and for handheld shooting the performance of the sights on the two pistols is comparable.
Trigger: You will want to tune the trigger on either gun to get best accuracy. Both are relatively easy to do. Once you get them under two pounds, which is better will be a personal preference.
Efficiency and CO2 usage: Stock, both pistols waste CO2 unless you need max power. On the 2240 a power adjuster is an easy and relatively cheap add-on (the one in the picture is home made). For the CP-1 the valve buffer as described by Jason works great but takes a little more effort to implement. That said, the shorter barrel on the 2240 will not be as efficient as the CP-1. These adjustments also help with the noise.
Caliber: If you are paper target shooting, the .177 available in the CP-1 is usually easier/cheaper to get wadcutters.
So in the end, it all depends on what you want to use it for. The CP-1 is higher end, but the size and shape of the grip may be an issue for someone that want an easy pistol to shoot with either small hands or with their kids. With the tuning described, for handheld shooting, I've gotten both pistols to comparable accuracy.
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I too think the CP-1 is a higher quality pistol but here are some additional things to consider.
Price: Within the US, the Amazon/Walmart price wars at times have driven the 2240 under $40 ( $80 for CP-1) may make a difference for some
Size/Shape: The CP-1 is and feels larger. The grip is in places a cm larger in perimeter and the trigger is about a cm longer reach. May be an issue for smaller hands, though plenty of options for carving away. Also the CP-1 grip has a different angle, more of a target "broken wrist" hold. some like it some don't
Breech/sights: The CP-1 is better on both accounts , and you may be able to get the bolt on the side you prefer. Note: I and others had to disassemble and clean up the breech/leade on the CP-1 because of rough pellet feed (no feed issues on my 2240). For sights, if this is to be used as a pistol with open sights, I replaced the rear sight plate on the 2240 with one with a narrower slot, and for handheld shooting the performance of the sights on the two pistols is comparable.
Trigger: You will want to tune the trigger on either gun to get best accuracy. Both are relatively easy to do. Once you get them under two pounds, which is better will be a personal preference.
Efficiency and CO2 usage: Stock, both pistols waste CO2 unless you need max power. On the 2240 a power adjuster is an easy and relatively cheap add-on (the one in the picture is home made). For the CP-1 the valve buffer as described by Jason works great but takes a little more effort to implement. That said, the shorter barrel on the 2240 will not be as efficient as the CP-1. These adjustments also help with the noise.
Caliber: If you are paper target shooting, the .177 available in the CP-1 is usually easier/cheaper to get wadcutters.
So in the end, it all depends on what you want to use it for. The CP-1 is higher end, but the size and shape of the grip may be an issue for someone that want an easy pistol to shoot with either small hands or with their kids. With the tuning described, for handheld shooting, I've gotten both pistols to comparable accuracy.
Luckly i think ill be able to get both of them (CP-1 for half the price without maganizes). Thank you for the advice.I'd go with the cp1 if you can afford it. Much better, steel breech instead of plastic, magazine. No comparison really. Plus you can get the new grips and stock for $25 if you decide you want to carbine it.
CARBINE STOCK?
Where, and how much?
Thanks, Rick
This stock was made from another brazilian guy, but i think it was an one time thing.
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This stock was made from another brazilian guy, but i think it was an one time thing.
Very nice!
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Hi Stan, that's a nice comprehensive comparison. With most of it I agree but I wanted to comment on the trigger. I've had several Crosmans with the 2240 type trigger group but only one CP1-M so I don't know if I got a factory freak whose trigger is somehow better than most but they are not remotely comparable. The Crosmans have a creepy behavior even after polishing and lubricating and installing a lighter spring...kind of a stick-slip, stick-slip, hang, break.
The CP1-M trigger is so much nicer. Buttery smooth all the way with a clean break. All it really needed was to take up some of the overly long travel.
If I could get the Crosman trigger to behave so well, I would be elated. I do agree it doesn't seem to adversely affect accuracy but it demands sufficient concentration to not pull the shot that it makes shooting it less enjoyable. Granted, at the $40 - $50 price point, it seems to be an unfair comparison...until adding a steel breech which puts them at a price parity. Then the CP1-M is a no brainer.
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Yah the CP-1M is a far cry better then the Crosman trigger! I have two and the .177 I bought first is a tidge better.
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Jason,
What I've been doing with my Crosman pistol triggers is replacing the sear spring with an inverted adjuster/spring shown in the photos. In my mind, this gets the spring out of the guide channel and replaces it with the smooth plastic sides of the block. I've made these out of some Delrin I had but also out of a thick plastic clothes hanger. The screw hole is blind so the sear rides on a smooth surface. I also do the usual polish and sear pin washer. The shorter, softer spring is out of a HF spring set.
I also use power adjusters on the 2240's
What I found is that with the power adjuster backed out to around 400fps, and with mods above, I get about a 1 1/2 pound trigger that has a short, relatively smooth motion, then I can feel the slight hang you describe before it breaks. If I'm patient to feel through those steps, it is very predictable.
I'm still working on the 13xx. without the power adjusters, the preload on the sear is higher and I have not fully duplicated the 2240's
All that said the CP-1 trigger is easier to tune.
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Thanks for sharing that! Great idea.
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That's clever, Stan, thanks for the photos and description! I've tried a few different approaches over the years but that's one I haven't seen. I may give that a try.
I wonder if the little hangup just before the break is something I can deal with by altering the geometry of the parts. A slight radius of maybe 0.010" on the sharp corner of the sear might do the trick.
Another thing I've been thinking about is cutting a groove in the hammer in line with the sear to see if it would eliminate the effects of sear drag that occurs when using an overtravel screw. I wanted to add a spring plunger to my 2400KT as shown in the following thread but it didn't work out due to the drag. http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=125063 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=125063)
I realize the practical solution is to get the drop sear trigger group but the cost kinda blows the budget aspect of the 2240 / 1377 / etc.
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The 2400kt has an over travel screw in the stock group doesn't it? How does Crosman handle the drag? Adjusting it until there is lots of over travel? Lol.
I agree with you on the cost of the prod triggers, but they sure are sweet. 8)
For some reason though, I still prefer my 2240... By a hair (granted, it's like Grandpa's hatchet at this point, the only stock piece left is the pressure tube... ) I think mainly because I feel like I'm still getting cheated out of some power on the CP1.
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I actually like a slight hangup before the break. I force myself to feel for it which usually keeps me from yanking on the trigger.
During the smooth/polish, I inadvertently put a slight radius on the sear of my 1322. It would not hold. I had to increase the sear spring preload to get it to do so. Fortunately, I think there is enough stroke to re-establish a sharper corner the next time I have it apart.
Yes, I'm definitely in the trigger should not cost more than the pistol camp
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The 2400kt has an over travel screw in the stock group doesn't it? How does Crosman handle the drag? Adjusting it until there is lots of over travel? Lol.
Unfortunately that is exactly right, speaking from experience. It has to be adjusted quite loose or drag is plainly apparent in the chronograph readings.
I think mainly because I feel like I'm still getting cheated out of some power on the CP1.
Yeah, I hear you on that. Prior to getting the CP1-M, I had very little interest in a pistol...a real pistol, not a powerful hog leg gun like the PP700 or P-rod. But somehow the CP1-M won me over with its accuracy, trigger, and shot count. Running it at modest power means I won't use it for anything larger than a chipmunk but getting over 80 shots per CO2 cartridge makes it a fun gun for reactive targets.
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Yes, I'm definitely in the trigger should not cost more than the pistol camp
But I'm glad it's available... the barrier to entry being ~$40 (some days) and then the sky being the limit is why I love the 22XX series.... I would like to see more (upgrade) options being offered on the CP1 series for sure.
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During the smooth/polish, I inadvertently put a slight radius on the sear of my 1322. It would not hold. I had to increase the sear spring preload to get it to do so. Fortunately, I think there is enough stroke to re-establish a sharper corner the next time I have it apart.
Stan, would you hazard a guess as to how much radius it was?
The hangup just before the break on all of mine is something I find very objectionable. It's not at all like hitting the second stage of a decent 2-stage trigger. I think I'd rather trade a slightly heavier trigger pull than deal with the hangup.
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Jason,
Do you polish the engagement face of your hammers? I had one stock hammer that had a significant machining groove protruding from the face and it actually caused a very similar condition to what you're describing.
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Jason,
I was sanding out the usual stamped steel features on the sear and noticed I had rounded the corner a bit. I usually try to avoid that. It was visible, but not intentionally radiused. Also at that point the trigger was at a pretty light pull, down around a pound. Having the adjustability on the sear spring preload made the recovery easy.
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Do you polish the engagement face of your hammers?
Oh yeah :) Frankly that's what makes the trigger pull so disappointing. Despite careful treatment of the affected surfaces, it just doesn't seem to respond with a clean pull.
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I was sanding out the usual stamped steel features on the sear and noticed I had rounded the corner a bit. I usually try to avoid that. It was visible, but not intentionally radiused. Also at that point the trigger was at a pretty light pull, down around a pound. Having the adjustability on the sear spring preload made the recovery easy.
Gotcha, thanks. For what it's worth, I try to take extreme care not to change the geometry of the surfaces, just get rid of the stamping artifacts like you said. First with flat diamond files to knock down the surface level with the tearout side, then final smoothing with wet/dry paper on a glass plate. The sear has a sharp 90° angle and seems to hold very securely so that's why I figured a very slight softening of the corner would be okay without requiring a lot of spring force to avoid a bump fire. I'll just have to experiment.
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Jason,
You don't mean 90 degree, just sharp, at the slant edge angle, right?
BWT, found a picture of the guide block in the channel. That was the first one I did...I got lazy and didn't make the bottom spring guide for the others. I don't think it affects the smoothness but I may experiment.
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Oh yeah, sorry, the picture in my mind's eye was a 90 but you're right, it has a shallow angle.
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Well, finally both guns arrived.
Soon ill get a chrony and get some numbers.
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Regarding the Mrodair CP1-M pistols for $89:
Do the front sights still need to be shimmed about 3/8 inch?
Does Mrodair sell the shim and longer screw?
Do the new ones come with the trigger set screw or just a threaded hole?
Does the muzzle brake reduce the noise?
I picked up a CP1-M two years ago...Mike had promised to send out a shim and screw to everyone to adjust the front sight height but never came through. see http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1437582793/It+gets+better.+We+also+are+including+a (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1437582793/It+gets+better.+We+also+are+including+a)
I fixed mine this way....you could use a small flat file too.
(http://www.snapagogo.com/images/2017/09/23/CP1-M-Rear-Sight_3.md.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/image/0La8v)
(http://www.snapagogo.com/images/2017/09/23/CP1-M-Rear-Sight_2.md.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/image/0LZpe)
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there were a couple of guys in this thread who wanted to know how to load the CP1-M magazine
loading and unloading YouTube video LINK HERE (http://tinyurl.com/y7mae7vk)
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there were a couple of guys in this thread who wanted to know how to load the CP1-M magazine
loading and unloading YouTube video
It looks like the skirt of the pellet gets damaged everytime
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there were a couple of guys in this thread who wanted to know how to load the CP1-M magazine
loading and unloading YouTube video
It looks like the skirt of the pellet gets damaged everytime
These are the same clips that the Varmint uses also, I've loaded and unloaded them more than once and never noticed any skirt damage at all. The SPA guns that use these clips seem to be very accurate as well.
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there were a couple of guys in this thread who wanted to know how to load the CP1-M magazine
loading and unloading YouTube video
It looks like the skirt of the pellet gets damaged everytime
I've never damaged any skirts loading my magazines....
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I also rounded the edge of the trigger blade per Mark's description in the other thread. Turns out my trigger blade is angled slightly towards the left hand side so this edge clean up really helped my right handed use. Just need to find a lighter sear spring to go with the mod I described earlier and the trigger will be done.
Do you have the link to Mark's trigger work?
On my .22 cal Mrod-air CP1-M, I've already beveled – rounded – the right edge of the trigger, as well the right corner of the trigger.
Trigger-guard edges were also rounded.
And the flat, inside of the trigger guard was smoothed with some fine bronze wool.
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That was a while back, but I think it was this one
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1492210182/last-1492272034/Expand+Thread (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1492210182/last-1492272034/Expand+Thread)
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That was a while back, but I think it was this one
network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1492210182/last-1492272034/Expand+Thread]http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1492210182/last-1492272034/Expand+Thread
Thanks for the quick reply. The link to “Inside the Mrod CP-1M” is a keeper.
Thus far, my trigger work is much more pedestrian. I only rounded and smoothed the edges and places that felt uncomfortable --- and left everything else as is.
There's more to do.
Thanks again.
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If you have not tried it, look for a softer sear spring. There are some suggestions in the middle of this thread. For me it made a big difference in being able to shoot it accurately. The nice thing about this pistol is how easy it is to access the trigger components.
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If you have not tried it, look for a softer sear spring. There are some suggestions in the middle of this thread. For me it made a big difference in being able to shoot it accurately. The nice thing about this pistol is how easy it is to access the trigger components.
I'll definitely put a softer sear spring on my to-do list.
But first, I have to get the hand grip off. I suspect it is hanging up on the pin that holds the sear in place.
I removed the trigger-guard screw. Pulled off the trigger guard. Next, removed the small screw at the back of the hand grip. Pulled down. Grip does not move much before meeting resistance.
I suspect a pin has detached from one of its holes and is protruding.
I'm going to try placing a thin piece of metal, such as a thick feeler gauge, between the trigger housing and wood of the grip to locate the interference.
It didn’t take much for the trigger-stop pin to move out of one of its hole. Applied small pieces of adhesive label to keep the two pins at the trigger base in place.
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On mine, the grip is a snug fit on the back section of the tube. To remove the grip I walk it out by tipping the front end down a bit and then the back end, repeating a few times. There isn't too much for the pins to get caught on. Yes, they are fairly loose. I just put some grease on them, mostly to hold them in place during reassembly.
good luck
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On mine, the grip is a snug fit on the back section of the tube. To remove the grip I walk it out by tipping the front end down a bit and then the back end, repeating a few times. There isn't too much for the pins to get caught on. Yes, they are fairly loose. I just put some grease on them, mostly to hold them in place during reassembly.
good luck
I needed someone to encourage me to Bruno the wood grip off of my CP1-M. The tight spot on my pistol is under the rear sight, between the CO2 tube and the inside of the grip.
To remove the grip, I treated the pistol like a break barrel: Barrel in left hand, grip in right hand --- bring hands together --- grip comes off.
Lightly sanded the tight spot inside the grip, just to make it smooth. It's still tight. Better tight than loose.
Also applied some hemp oil (a legitimate wood finish) to the raw-wood insides of the grip. The color of the beech wood did not change. In fact, the appearance of the raw beech improved considerably. Recommended.
For lubrication: A small amount of Fluid Film (.com) on the sides of the CO2 tube, under the rear sight.
Problem solved.
Thanks again.
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Glad it worked out.
Other than the snugness, getting access to the trigger and sear is very quick and makes it easy to do a few iterations on tuning. Really improves a nice pistol.
Have fun
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Has anyone tried the T. R. Robb replacement barrel for the CP-1M?
If so, did it improve accuracy?
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Link? Or other info, forum post, etc.?
The factory barrel on mine is fantastic after cleaning up the crown. However the barrel on the Plinkster I received last week (same style, just longer) had damaged rifling at the muzzle from a piloted crowning tool. Might want to check yours, especially if it was received recently. The damage is tooling and process related so there are bound to be more besides mine.
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Link? Or other info, forum post, etc.?
The factory barrel on mine is fantastic after cleaning up the crown. However the barrel on the Plinkster I received last week (same style, just longer) had damaged rifling at the muzzle from a piloted crowning tool. Might want to check yours, especially if it was received recently. The damage is tooling and process related so there are bound to be more besides mine.
Jason I read that thread that shows your barrel on that Plinkster, is that a .177 or the .22? The reason I ask is because I've also been thinking of getting one in .22 for possible lego purposes, eventually I'd like to get the CP2 as well.
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Um...
Guys, I wanted to give you a heads up that I received a .177 Mrodair Plinkster (SPA CR600W) on Friday that has damaged rifling at the muzzle.
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TR Robb has a whole buncha parts for the CP1. Two SS hammer options, Oversize trigger guard, oversize bolt handle, Exhaust valve, transfer ports, Valve body, mainspring guide, and O-ring seal set! Since I have two guns I am going to try a few parts!
Please post the results-I'd like to hear about these parts, especially the adjustable hammer, valve and TP! BTW, I couldn't find all the parts you mentioned. Is there a link on his site I'm missing?
I tried the adjustable hammer and wasn't impressed with the performance. Reinstalled the stock hammer and will use that one. I'm not sure if I can say anything negative about a product on this forum.
Anyone know of someone that can take a Lothar Walther barrel, and make it fit the CP-1M?
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