GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: RAJOD on March 28, 2017, 05:29:16 PM
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Is this the gun to take the industry by storm? Is this the Maurader killer?
Who here is laying down their hard cash so they can say "I'm laying down the Gauntlet!"
They are really laying down the hype on this gun. Calling it "The Game Changer"
I have to admit for 299.00 its pretty impressive on paper and in videos.
I hope to able to try one out soon. And no I'm not swapping my Regal for it.
https://www.umarexusa.com/products/umarex-gauntlet (https://www.umarexusa.com/products/umarex-gauntlet)
I mean just watching those videos makes you want to lay down the Gauntlet.
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everyone loves a good deal so if this gun shoots well, I can only see it being a hit!
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I'd much rather have my Mrod any day!
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I'd much rather have my Mrod any day!
Wayne I saw yer eye twitch when you typed that. Yes, its true deep down Wayne wants to to LAY DOWN THE GAUNTLET!!!!
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I'd much rather have my Mrod any day!
Wayne I saw yer eye twitch when you typed that. Yes, its true deep down Wayne wants to to LAY DOWN THE GAUNTLET!!!!
Nahh!!! If I was going to buy an Umarex I'd be more inclined to buy the Hammer, now if that gun pans out, it would make a great deer gun 8)
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I'd much rather have my Mrod any day!
Wayne I saw yer eye twitch when you typed that. Yes, its true deep down Wayne wants to to LAY DOWN THE GAUNTLET!!!!
Nahh!!! If I was going to buy an Umarex I'd be more inclined to buy the Hammer, now if that gun pans out, it would make a great deer gun 8)
I see you are from Kzoo. I heard they have a yearly air gun show there. Have you been? If yes will Umarex be there? If yes then I'm going and making sure you keep the hands off the Gauntlet.
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Price is attractive,....but not enough to pry my hands off my regulated HPA 850 which I think Umarex copied by the way.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y208/richwoods/Turkeys/TemeculaBenchrest003_zpsa3a5c866.jpg)
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In order:
No, it won't take the industry by storm. It's the QB-79 with a Ninja bottle and repeater breech, a shroud, and a synthetic stock. It is certainly NOT a Marauder killer since it won't be using .25 caliber Green Mountain barrels, and I seriously doubt that the QB trigger can be tuned as nice as an MRod trigger.
I will not be laying the money down on one. I have a QB with repeater breech, and I prefer wood stock over synthetic.
"They" can lay down the hype and call it a game-changer, but seeing is believing. I know the TRUE game-changer is a $200 SPA pistol, with a regulator, offers adjustable TP, trigger, and hammer spring tension as well as proven accuracy, but I'm a SPAddict.
For ~ $300 you get a nifty package with the Gauntlet. Worth it? I do believe so. We'll see how the real performance out of the box is though. The potential is there.
The Gauntlet videos I've seen don't blow me away, but I'm not easily swayed by videos.
As far as swapping a Regal for one... They are in completely different price realms. Might as well trade an FWB 124 for a B-3 underlever.
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As far as swapping a Regal for one... They are in completely different price realms. Might as well trade an FWB 124 for a B-3 underlever.
I know sarcasm does not come across well on the web. I was joking on the Regal.
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As far as swapping a Regal for one... They are in completely different price realms. Might as well trade an FWB 124 for a B-3 underlever.
I know sarcasm does not come across well on the web. I was joking on the Regal.
Understood. The smilies and other emoticons can help :)
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As far as swapping a Regal for one... They are in completely different price realms. Might as well trade an FWB 124 for a B-3 underlever.
I know sarcasm does not come across well on the web. I was joking on the Regal.
Understood. The smilies and other emoticons can help :)
Yea but I have a dry sense of humor. I will try to use more smiles :)
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If you look at the general public like kids,dads,moms outdoorsy people, with little to no knowledge of PCP's, triggers etc etc. I.e. everyone not on this board, and perhaps some on this board too, will be attracted to the price point of the Gauntlet, and what you get for it.
I have a real difficult time seeing this as anything but a huge success for Umarex. And yes I do think they will knock Crossman of their peerch in the budget PCP market.
Is it a better gun than the Maurauder? They dont care, the people buying one wont either.
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If you look at the general public like kids,dads,moms outdoorsy people, with little to no knowledge of PCP's, triggers etc etc. I.e. everyone not on this board, and perhaps some on this board too, will be attracted to the price point of the Gauntlet, and what you get for it.
I have a real difficult time seeing this as anything but a huge success for Umarex. And yes I do think they will knock Crossman of their peerch in the budget PCP market.
Is it a better gun than the Maurauder? They dont care, the people buying one wont either.
im not sure if its direct competition.. A new mrod lists at 499 on most sites , and the gauntlet is 299...I think the gaunt will sell like crazy
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If you look at the general public like kids,dads,moms outdoorsy people, with little to no knowledge of PCP's, triggers etc etc. I.e. everyone not on this board, and perhaps some on this board too, will be attracted to the price point of the Gauntlet, and what you get for it.
I have a real difficult time seeing this as anything but a huge success for Umarex. And yes I do think they will knock Crossman of their peerch in the budget PCP market.
Is it a better gun than the Maurauder? They dont care, the people buying one wont either.
im not sure if its direct competition.. A new mrod lists at 499 on most sites , and the gauntlet is 299...I think the gaunt will sell like crazy
It is in a sense, since Crossman was in the "budget/entry" level PCP game.
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true.. Obviously the gauntlet will kill alot of disco , maximus , and varmint sales..
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If you want my speculation on it...
Crossman isn't sleeping very well at the moment, they know what the Gauntlet is, and what is represent. I think it was one of the, if not the primary reason for them canceling certain "new" products like the regulated Marauder, since they knew they where no longer competitive on price.
In the next year or two we'll probably see nicer budget PCP's in the 300 +/- $75 coming from several companies, including Crossman.
As it grows we will likely see compressors at more normal price levels being offered as well. It's all about the market hitting its critical mass.
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If you look at the general public like kids,dads,moms outdoorsy people, with little to no knowledge of PCP's, triggers etc etc. I.e. everyone not on this board, and perhaps some on this board too, will be attracted to the price point of the Gauntlet, and what you get for it.
I have a real difficult time seeing this as anything but a huge success for Umarex. And yes I do think they will knock Crossman of their peerch in the budget PCP market.
Is it a better gun than the Maurauder? They dont care, the people buying one wont either.
im not sure if its direct competition.. A new mrod lists at 499 on most sites , and the gauntlet is 299...I think the gaunt will sell like crazy
I know of at least one would be Marauder buyer that is going to lay down the Gauntlet. Save 200.00 to put into other things.
I have to admit I like John and Cameron from Airgun Depot, they put out some funny videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC-r4JzCTjI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC-r4JzCTjI)
I just like the saying "Laying down the Gauntlet" Cameron took some shots in that video.
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If you want my speculation on it...
Crossman isn't sleeping very well at the moment, they know what the Gauntlet is, and what is represent. I think it was one of the, if not the primary reason for them canceling certain "new" products like the regulated Marauder, since they knew they where no longer competitive on price.
In the next year or two we'll probably see nicer budget PCP's in the 300 +/- $75 coming from several companies, including Crossman.
As it grows we will likely see compressors at more normal price levels being offered as well. It's all about the market hitting its critical mass.
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If you want my speculation on it...
Crossman isn't sleeping very well at the moment, they know what the Gauntlet is, and what is represent. I think it was one of the, if not the primary reason for them canceling certain "new" products like the regulated Marauder, since they knew they where no longer competitive on price.
In the next year or two we'll probably see nicer budget PCP's in the 300 +/- $75 coming from several companies, including Crossman.
As it grows we will likely see compressors at more normal price levels being offered as well. It's all about the market hitting its critical mass.
agreed.. were already seeing chinese compressors for the home user in the 200-300 dollar range, if they can do it , so can a lot of domestic companies.. And , although ive been alone on this , ive always thought PCP,s were way overpriced when you factor in the simplicity of design , and the amount of moving parts involved.People have long thought that the PCP tube was some kind of ubertanium not sold to the general public , along with other myths that justified the prices.
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Price has been high cause of relative low demand, not hype.
Now that the components and the technology to mass produce them in huge numbers, the price will drop, and drop fast.
When you produce anything in low numbers the overhead is high, the tooling cost, and manufacturing cost is handed down pr. unit produced, so if you dont produce a whole lot, that overhead is very high driving up the price.
Now there is other factors like QC, quality, sophistication, materials, and other things that also either drive up or lower the cost pr. unit.
But saying the price is high due to a hyped marked is false.
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Price has been high cause of relative low demand, not hype.
Now that the components and the technology to mass produce them in huge numbers, the price will drop, and drop fast.
When you produce anything in low numbers the overhead is high, the tooling cost, and manufacturing cost is handed down pr. unit produced, so if you dont produce a whole lot, that overhead is very high driving up the price.
Now there is other factors like QC, quality, sophistication, materials, and other things that also either drive up or lower the cost pr. unit.
But saying the price is high due to a hyped marked is false.
Pcp prices are certainly not high because of relative low demand....that is so absurd to say, I can name countless products that have low demand and low price, basically an attempt to give the product away for a fraction of profit.
That is not economically sound nor how economics works...its also not due to any low supplies.
Good quality barrels alone cost 100$+
Quality triggers alone cost 100$+
Stocks 100$+
Valve + hammer system 100$+
Breach / cocking system = 100$+
Bam you're at 500$ in r&d, manufacturing/labor, materials, and overhead in parts and you haven't even began looking at profit margins, and, and...you think these rifles are expensive and simple? Lol, then go build one from scratch with appeal to a market and make $.
When you see prices go below 500$ on PCP air rifles you will also see quality go down ten fold as well. Corners will be cut, mass produced or not, material quality will be sacrificed, and I'd hate to see any of them try to compete next to another pcp with match grade trigger and barrel.
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Price has been high cause of relative low demand, not hype.
Now that the components and the technology to mass produce them in huge numbers, the price will drop, and drop fast.
When you produce anything in low numbers the overhead is high, the tooling cost, and manufacturing cost is handed down pr. unit produced, so if you dont produce a whole lot, that overhead is very high driving up the price.
Now there is other factors like QC, quality, sophistication, materials, and other things that also either drive up or lower the cost pr. unit.
But saying the price is high due to a hyped marked is false.
I don't have a good pulse on the market like some here might have. But I was at our scuba shop when they were not too busy. They gave me a tour of their 30,000+ compressor set up. It was pretty intense, it would give the shoebox a run for its money :)
They had every type of connection for every situation. Paintball guns, PCP, Hellium etc.
Can do pressure 4500++ . They don't need to take the foster fittings off, they have PCP ready quick connects. So I asked them if PCP were getting popular. He said in the past two years they seem to be really taking off.
That is just my area don't know if its nation wide but if it is I would expect more Gauntlet like guns at low prices.
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Buying directly from china is almost always cheaper in every scenario. You buy straight from the manufacturer instead of a middle man who is seeking 200-300% profit margins and you see 1500$ compressors for 500$ and 1000$ compressors for 300-400$.
It's been this way for a very long time.
They can and do steal ideas from others and copy their product almost to the T. Guess where most companies outsource their manufacturing to? China.
I'd rather buy a no brand copy for 1/3-1/2 the cost, because that is just that many less meals or quality of meals its taking off my dinner table at the end of the day/week/month/year/lifetime, so long as quality is not compromised and I achieve the same results.
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Ackruic, supply and demand set the pricing.
If you can make 20.000 triggers cause the demand is there, you can do it in such a way that CPA is getting very low, and you could sell the same triggers for $45.50 rather than $100
Daystate, Airarms and other high priced rifles should almost be considered custom rifles due to their low production numbers.
I work for a company that makes products, and we produce between 4 & 5 million products annually which drives down cost of goods.
If we only made say 5000 annually the cost pr. unit would be much much higher.
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When you see prices go below 500$ on PCP air rifles you will also see quality go down ten fold as well. Corners will be cut, mass produced or not, material quality will be sacrificed, and I'd hate to see any of them try to compete next to another pcp with match grade trigger and barrel.
No need to build your own for 500 when you can ride the Gauntlet Gravey train at 299.00
I am sure there will be some junk ones during the fallout. But scopes have come down in price quite a bit and yes some junk in there but I think you can get more for your money in the mid range than 20 years ago.
I paid 1300 for a Daystate Regal XL only to see the price plummet to 999.00. I don't know, are the new regals not as good as my 2013 one? Are they using balsa wood stocks? They found a way. Would not want to be a dealer stuck with old $1300 stock.
Maybe my gun was a bit over priced to begin with, its devalued now but I don't care if it means more shooters. Low price PCP entry is a good thing for all. They know they will want to move up the PCP food chain and will have the high ticket guns waiting.
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Ackruic, supply and demand set the pricing.
If you can make 20.000 triggers cause the demand is there, you can do it in such a way that CPA is getting very low, and you could sell the same triggers for $45.50 rather than $100
Daystate, Airarms and other high priced rifles should almost be considered custom rifles due to their low production numbers.
I work for a company that makes products, and we produce between 4 & 5 million products annually which drives down cost of goods.
If we only made say 5000 annually the cost pr. unit would be much much higher.
I wholeheartedly disagree, setting the price so high (ie: 200-400% over market average) is what bottlenecks a market, and its price point is set not because of outrageous costs of materials and manufacturing, but as to maintain a brand, or are you not familiar with branding?
You manufacture 5,000,000,000 triggers, or 5,000 and the cost is the same...to the manufacturer, obviously you're not in manufacturing, and if you want to argue bulk pricing on materials, the difference is negligible when comparing that difference to the end cost of product, bulk pricing has a cap and its very easy to hit that 'cap' when buying in bulk, even for say 5,000 triggers.
Daystate is a brand
Fx is a brand
Both have reputation and can sell airguns for $1,000 like hot cakes, and trust me there was a huge demand for FX impacts, still is, always will be until something better comes along and you don't see them mass producing it at a lower cost, because doing so will negatively effect their brand, so therefore its better to keep it somewhat niche and held back, thus creating a demand by keeping the supply low artificially, its not that they can't, its that they wont.
The FX streamline is a great example. It's not priced 1/2 of an impact because they all of a sudden have 2x the supply of material for that particular model...nor are they 1/2 the quality. Its a simpler design, took less r&d, and their targeting the lower end of high end guns for a change solely for monetary benefits, it was imo a fantastic business move.
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Price has been high cause of relative low demand, not hype.
Now that the components and the technology to mass produce them in huge numbers, the price will drop, and drop fast.
When you produce anything in low numbers the overhead is high, the tooling cost, and manufacturing cost is handed down pr. unit produced, so if you dont produce a whole lot, that overhead is very high driving up the price.
Now there is other factors like QC, quality, sophistication, materials, and other things that also either drive up or lower the cost pr. unit.
But saying the price is high due to a hyped marked is false.
Pcp prices are certainly not high because of relative low demand....that is so absurd to say, I can name countless products that have low demand and low price, basically an attempt to give the product away for a fraction of profit.
That is not economically sound nor how economics works...its also not due to any low supplies.
Good quality barrels alone cost 100$+
Quality triggers alone cost 100$+
Stocks 100$+
Valve + hammer system 100$+
Breach / cocking system = 100$+
Bam you're at 500$ in r&d, manufacturing/labor, materials, and overhead in parts and you haven't even began looking at profit margins, and, and...you think these rifles are expensive and simple? Lol, then go build one from scratch with appeal to a market and make $.
When you see prices go below 500$ on PCP air rifles you will also see quality go down ten fold as well. Corners will be cut, mass produced or not, material quality will be sacrificed, and I'd hate to see any of them try to compete next to another pcp with match grade trigger and barrel.
i disagree with part of this , because were not discussing high end guns , atleast i wasnt when i spoke about pcp pricing.
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and having mass production experience, the bottom line on machined parts usually comes down to speed and efficiency , not the material its made from.. In other words, like someone mentioned, once you are tooled up to made a certain part, the actual cost of production ( think wildfire) goes down.. You are not making a gain in the cost of the alumuinum, youre making the savings in units made per hour
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Buying directly from china is almost always cheaper in every scenario. You buy straight from the manufacturer instead of a middle man who is seeking 200-300% profit margins and you see 1500$ compressors for 500$ and 1000$ compressors for 300-400$.
It's been this way for a very long time.
They can and do steal ideas from others and copy their product almost to the T. Guess where most companies outsource their manufacturing to? China.
I'd rather buy a no brand copy for 1/3-1/2 the cost, because that is just that many less meals or quality of meals its taking off my dinner table at the end of the day/week/month/year/lifetime, so long as quality is not compromised and I achieve the same results.
Yes sad to say but that is why USA companies went there. I have buddy that owns a plate glass factory and I gave him a hard time a few years back when he moved his operations to China. I was just ribbing him. He said "hey i had to I can't compete because my competition is moving too" I asked him about the set up. He said no issues and
- No lawyers
- no written contract (a shake hands agreement) Unheard of in USA I was floored.
- No healthcare to pay (that was huge)
- Low cost labor
- I don't remember it all but the list was long and he saved a TON.
That was like 3 years ago, so maybe things have changed dunno. I did not ask if the quality tanked though.
Quality control was/is an issue there that will eventually turn around. Someday it will be what made in USA? thats junk I only buy quality made in China products.
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As Rob was mentioning, cost of materials stays somewhat the same, although you are in a much better position to negotiate 40 ton of aluminum vs. 500 lbs.
Toolcost, molds, machinery, engineering to make a part is X, but when you mass produce something fast, that cost can be negated by the speed of which you make it.
Simple example, if an injection mold cost you 100K to make, and you can only sell 1000 products for the life cycle of that product, you have an overhead in that department alone of $1000 pr. unit.
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If you are making 5k units you won't even use the same equipment as one would to make 5 million. It would not even be the same kind of process. Saying they would cost the same per trigger is nonsense.
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As Rob was mentioning, cost of materials stays somewhat the same, although you are in a much better position to negotiate 40 ton of aluminum vs. 500 lbs.
Toolcost, molds, machinery, engineering to make a part is X, but when you mass produce something fast, that cost can be negated by the speed of which you make it.
Simple example, if an injection mold cost you 100K to make, and you can only sell 1000 products for the life cycle of that product, you have an overhead in that department alone of $1000 pr. unit.
For 1000 units you cut the parts for $100 each on overhead for labor and machine time. For 100k units you can use that mold and have an overhead of $1 per unit. Plus the cost of the machine etc. Either way scaling up can really reduce costs.
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Ok, guys we are splitting hairs here.
The point is that if there is sufficient market demand, the way of making something opens opportunities to produce in a way that lowers prices that would otherwise be unattainable.
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If you want my speculation on it...
Crossman isn't sleeping very well at the moment, they know what the Gauntlet is, and what is represent. I think it was one of the, if not the primary reason for them canceling certain "new" products like the regulated Marauder, since they knew they where no longer competitive on price.
In the next year or two we'll probably see nicer budget PCP's in the 300 +/- $75 coming from several companies, including Crossman.
As it grows we will likely see compressors at more normal price levels being offered as well. It's all about the market hitting its critical mass.
agreed.. were already seeing chinese compressors for the home user in the 200-300 dollar range, if they can do it , so can a lot of domestic companies.. And , although ive been alone on this , ive always thought PCP,s were way overpriced when you factor in the simplicity of design , and the amount of moving parts involved.People have long thought that the PCP tube was some kind of ubertanium not sold to the general public , along with other myths that justified the prices.
The only real problem with the chinnese compressors is the shipping. It cost as much as the compressor in not more. Getting parts for them is another thing.
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Something funny I experienced while working for a fortune 500 company that is involved in production
Customer " why are these 3.00 dollars each , you guys get them by the thousand , what do you pay 10 cents each?"
ME " its a lot more than that , youd be shocked if I was allowed to say "
at the time , although he was right and we were buying them by the semi load, I think they were about 1.25 each..
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Ok, guys we are splitting hairs here.
The point is that if there is sufficient market demand, the way of making something opens opportunities to produce in a way that lowers prices that would otherwise be unattainable.
And, yes Steven, if you where looking at ONLY producing 1000 pieces, you would not spend 100K on a mold, but find another appropriate way, but that wasn't the point of the example given.
Anyway, I don not need to argue, I do this thing day in and day out, so if it is hard to understand, I apologize.
I was just agreeing with you. Sorry if that was unclear.
My frustration was with the fellow who claimed production cost for 5K and 5MM units was the same.
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If you want my speculation on it...
Crossman isn't sleeping very well at the moment, they know what the Gauntlet is, and what is represent. I think it was one of the, if not the primary reason for them canceling certain "new" products like the regulated Marauder, since they knew they where no longer competitive on price.
In the next year or two we'll probably see nicer budget PCP's in the 300 +/- $75 coming from several companies, including Crossman.
As it grows we will likely see compressors at more normal price levels being offered as well. It's all about the market hitting its critical mass.
agreed.. were already seeing chinese compressors for the home user in the 200-300 dollar range, if they can do it , so can a lot of domestic companies.. And , although ive been alone on this , ive always thought PCP,s were way overpriced when you factor in the simplicity of design , and the amount of moving parts involved.People have long thought that the PCP tube was some kind of ubertanium not sold to the general public , along with other myths that justified the prices.
The only real problem with the chinnese compressors is the shipping. It cost as much as the compressor in not more. Getting parts for them is another thing.
Getting that cost down just takes someone importing a whole shipping container of them.
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Ok, guys we are splitting hairs here.
The point is that if there is sufficient market demand, the way of making something opens opportunities to produce in a way that lowers prices that would otherwise be unattainable.
And, yes Steven, if you where looking at ONLY producing 1000 pieces, you would not spend 100K on a mold, but find another appropriate way, but that wasn't the point of the example given.
Anyway, I don not need to argue, I do this thing day in and day out, so if it is hard to understand, I apologize.
I was just agreeing with you. Sorry if that was unclear.
My frustration was with the fellow who claimed production cost for 5K and 5MM units was the same.
No worries, I re read your post, and realized I had read it too fast, sorry about that.
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I've said it in numerous threads here... Everything including everything is all about economy of scale. That is all that matters.
As PCPs like the Gauntlet come along, local kids like Crosman may have a panic-attack, but maybe not. Crosman is synonymous with airguns in the US to John Q Public. Umarex is weird-sounding to many of those same people- much like Gamo is still "that china brand" which tells you exactly how clueless the mass public is. Yes, I have heard Gamo be referred to as a Chinese brand many many times.
Since Wal-Mart carries the Disco, Max, and MRod/Prod on the shelves, and many big-box gun stores are starting to carry them, Umarex still has some ground to make up. The price-point makes it much easier; the main issue I see is the Max, Disco, and now the WiFi all fill much easier with a hand pump. I know, since I have filled my Ninja bottle by hand numerous times.
And while Crosman might be taking deep breaths as Umarex (and Gamo) make in-roads, SPA is silently scaring everybody with their growth as a name. Look at how the M10 and PP700 have taken off like crazy just among members here. And they will have the economy of scale to really make a name for themselves the way Hatsan has in the PCP market- with their own unique designs and numerous patents.
Until Umarex is making inroads the way Hatsan has and SPA is, I consider the Gauntlet to be a logical/next-step evolution of the QB-79- not an original design. I'm not knocking the Gauntlet at all, and I will likely own one at some point in .177, but for now, I see it as a happy medium between the lower-priced/easier to fill/geared-toward-hunting Maximus and Discovery on one end and the Marauder on the other. It's just a gateway drug to the ultimate addiction of an Air Arms, Daystate, FX, or BSA uber-gun (or one of the boutique brands like RAW)
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I for one want to see real world reviews and then we will know. Still, it certainly is causing some attention and I'm really hoping it does well. I like my Discovery, however I have about $550 total into mine to get it shooting the way I like. So for $300, sounds pretty good. As I said, we'll see if it lives up to the hype.
Dave
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Just got another buddy to order one. Yes Airgun Depot one of the ones that was miffed you did not call him back. I want a free O ring or something for saving you. :)
Gauntlet city in my area.