GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Taso1000 on May 08, 2016, 12:10:22 PM
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Hi All,
As the title states, I'm looking for suggestions. I had my heart set on an Air Arms T200. The more I researched I am finding that it's setup for smaller statured shooters and maybe not as accurate as I thought. So I'm looking for an alternative to the T200 better suited to my needs. If you have had a great experience with a T200 please let me know. It's not out of the running.
Accuracy has top priority. Then silent and ease of operation. I don't need high power as I will be shooting paper targets and aluminum beverage cans. Lot's of shots per fill is preferred. I'm leaning towards a scope versus open sights. I am 47 and wear glasses for nearsightedness and astigmatism.
I am 5'11" and I don't have any immediate plans to compete. I just want to hone my skills at home, primarily offhand shooting, and have fun. I don't know what weight rifle I should be looking for also. Light may be lees fatiguing but I have read heavier is better for accuracy.
I don't have access to co2 or hpa tank or compressor setups. I will be filling by pumping manually.
I do have a CMP 853 refurb with the monte carlo pistol grip stock. So I'm looking for an upgrade and something better suited to my requirements.
I am frugal and will spend money where it will provide the most benefit. I was ok spending $525 for the T200. Spending less is good and I don't have a problem spending more if the benefit is there.
I have built a detuned B51 but it's missing something. I don't know what that is. I think the barrel may not be good as I tried crowning it but I am not seeing crisp lands and grooves. I'll address that in my other post about it.
Thank you all in advance for your help. :D
Taso
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I have a CZ200s that fits all your requirements(maybe a little high on the budget side). Basically the same as T200 but has a laminate stock. I use it exactly as you describe.... mostly in my basement range at 10M. I have it shooting around 12ft lbs for about 45 accurate shots with the short tube. I also have a long tube and that makes a little more power and I'm getting 75+/- accurate shots. Being 6'1" with a 34 sleeve length the CZ fits me very well with the limb saver as shown in the pic below. In stock form it is not quite backyard friendly. It is my favorite airgun.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o280/mgleil/CZ%20200S/DSCN1819.jpg)
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If you are limiting yourself to hand pumping and are target shooting, I would recommend something that is set up for a 2000psi fill instead of the 3000psi fill that is common on most of the more high end guns, unless you willing to tinker on the action to increase the shot count.
The Benjamin Discovery is set up for a 2000psi fill but they apparently come with a really stiff hammer spring now that increases velocity but reduces shot count and have a standard barrel that could or could not meet your needs, and at best even with tuning on a .177 version you would probably only get 30-40 shots per charge and you would have to add a TKO muzzle brake to get it quiet. The Benjamin Marauder has a choked higher end barrel but is 3000psi with a large reservoir. Everything on the Marauder is adjustable from the factory without changing parts (hammer preload, transfer port size, etc) and in .177 if you dropped it down to ~700fps I imagine you could get around 100 shots per fill as I get 60 at 850fps in my .22 version. And the Marauder is near silent as it is, especially if you lower the velocity, as it is I can get at least a couple shots at most pest birds especially in a tree as they can't hear the gun just the impact...
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If it's just target shooting I would recommend the Mrod in .177. You can always tune it to a lower fill pressure and usually are accurate with the right pellets. There heavier but are very quiet.
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Xisico xs60c http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=56 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=56)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNXcMs9lJzI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNXcMs9lJzI)
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Thank you everyone for suggestions and taking the time to respond.
Marty,
I will have to research that rifle. Besides power how is it different than the T200?
Scott and Dillon,
I have considered the Marauder. It's more of a jack of all trades and flexible rifle. And it's a good base to customize. For tinkering I picked the B51's over the Marauder. I have 4 B51's and 2 FD PCP's. They are all modified except for two B51's that are still brand new in the box.
I want a break from tinkering. I was looking for something more specific purpose built that I don't have to do all the R&D on.
Ian,
I have 2 FD PCP's that I have modified. I'm looking for something different.
Please keep the suggestions coming and thank you all! :D
Taso
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Give this one a real good perusal.
http://www.crosman.com/airguns/air-rifles/challenger-pcp-rifle-with-sights-177 (http://www.crosman.com/airguns/air-rifles/challenger-pcp-rifle-with-sights-177)
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Ken,
I've seriously considered that rifle. I've read that there are issues with the bolt? Do you have any first hand knowledge?
The other issue is that it priced at $649 versus $525 for the T200 on PA. Even if they were the same price I'd rather have the Air Arms honestly.
The S400 MPR is interesting but it's double the price and I don't know if it's worth the upgrade for what I'm going to do with it. But it is impressive looking. :D
Taso
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No personal experience, bur here are some reviews for both rifle variants.
https://www.pyramydair.com/search-results-ext?keyword=challenger+pcp&sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=challenger+pcp&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch (https://www.pyramydair.com/search-results-ext?keyword=challenger+pcp&sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=challenger+pcp&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch)
There is this version, no sights -
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/crosman-challenger-pcp-co2-rifle-no-sights?m=1927 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/crosman-challenger-pcp-co2-rifle-no-sights?m=1927)
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I have had several pcp guns and they are by far my favorite guns period . I own both powder burners and other air guns but always have the most fun shooting my pcp guns . I have had an evanix blizzard for about 5 years and have shot thousands and thousands of pellets thru it and it is a lazer accurate powerfull gun its also .22 cal . Just a few weeks ago I got a marauder pistol for my birthday and I love it ! Got it on amazon for $350 bucks free shipping . I have had the evanix windy city 2 pcp in .25 cal as well as the Benjamin marauder in .22 and a disco in .177 . My advice is if you want a cheap light weight fun back yard plinker that is not realy loud then go with the marauder pistol . The maurader pistol comes with a pistol grip that is pretty much useless in my opinion take it off and put on the bigger stock that comes with it mount a scope on it and you have a very nice piece . I thought the Benjamin discovery was way to loud the way it comes out of the box and it also is a single shot " load one pellet at a time" just didn't cut it for me . my final pick of the liter is the marauder rifle in .22 or if money is tight go with the marauder pistol and put the bigger stock on it . There are better guns out there but for the money I recommend the marauder
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Hatsan AT 44 QE , very tuanable also in that price range .
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Idk why I didn't think of this before checkout the crosman 1720t. Lothar walther barrel with shroud and it's a .177 perfect for target shooting. Comes with 2 transfer ports for changing power output
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Marty,
I will have to research that rifle. Besides power how is it different than the T200?
The stock and the T200 comes with target sights. The power can be turned up on the T200, the instructions are right on the Pyramyd Air page for the rifle. Mine is very accurate at the 12 ft lb mark with JSB 8.44 pellets at 10M.
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Dillon,
I guess TransmissionMan triggered us both on the 1720T! I knew the PRod was .22 only and the 1701 is .177 but there was another model pistol with the Lothar Walther choked barrel in .177. I couldn't remember the name so I had to look it up. The 1720T!!! So I was searching while you were posting I guess. Very Nice!
I see there's like a Tactical version with an AR-15 style collapsible stock. Not my thing. I guess there's the 1399 stock. Meh. Are there any other stock options?
Would a Challenger stock and trigger group work? :o There I go trying to mod the rifle again lol ::) I said I didn't want to do that lol
So I think the T200 has some competition if I can figure out a stock solution for the 1720T. :D
I have to look up shot counts at low power for both. I'm thinking at 550 fps with 7.9 gran pellets. And prices.
I'm gonna start more research on the 1720T but please feel free to comment or submit any other options.
Thank you all for your help! :D
Taso
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What about one of the custom FT rifles at Discos-r-us? http://discosrus.net/ (http://discosrus.net/)
LW barrel, 2K fill pressure for easy pumping, you should get decent shot count in the 12fpe version. I must admit...this rifle keeps tempting me!
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Mark,
I like it! Thanks. Now I got to read up on it. The price seems good. I need to research more about it.
Do you know much about them? Can a tko ldc be added? If it's the Challenger barrel it's shorter than the air tube. I don't know if there is enough clearance for an ldc between the barrel and air tube gap. The same would go for the Challenger no?
The 12 fpe version would need to be brought down to 5 - 6 fpe too.
Thank you Mark,
P.S. I was real tempted by your .177 Marauder you had for sale the other day. :D
Taso
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There is still a .22 if you want to go Rambo on the local squirrels. :-).
Back to subject - talk to norm at discos r us, he makes a disco muzzle that accepts a threaded ldc. But honestly, if you are tuning for 6fpe, you probably won't need it. I was able to shoot my challenger in the basement no problem. And having owned a challenger... I thin this rifle is a better deal.
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I would say go with the Air Arms, you will not regret it. Plenty of options to make it quiet.
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Hey Tasso,
If shooting 50 yards or less, just get a QB78 or QB79 (.177) and convert of HPA. Now this is not a big gun, but after owning all my Hatsan's, I prefer about at 6.5lb to 8lb gun scoped. Further, the QB's are built very solidly, I can't imagine the stock snapping -> aka my B-26.
I've made my last two for $165 .......... but plenty of tinkering ;D
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I will 3rd the 1720T. I have an AR stock on mine and it is my all time favorite plinker. It is quiet, and if you went with a TKO it would be near silent. Put in the small TP in doors and the larger one outdoors. I have a 3X9 EFR Nikon on it and I LOVE it. 65cc reservoir is easy to pump. I unscrew the stock and it fits in a small box.
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I would go for an AR2079 in 177 cal , simply run a 13ci paintball tank at 850 psi . Call it a day . Excellent trigger , barrels are superb for the price and pretty good sights . A multi shot breech is available from A#€^er air guns that uses marauder magazines . With that setup ,should be good for a few hundred shots per fill at 5 to 6 fpe . That would leave you with enough money for a few thousand pellets.
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Well, I was holding back on recommending a QB since you mentioned you didn't want to tinker. But it is true that you can get both accuracy and massive shot count for indoor duty at 6fpe with a minimal amount of tinkering. None of the porting and valve modification is necessary for that power level. So you might be able to get by with nothing more than backing off the hammer strike to improve efficiency (cut the spring or do a RVA). I would also polish the leade and check the crown but it may not need it.
That said, if you don't need the shot count and want something lightweight, a 1720T would serve you nicely. Good trigger and good barrel, and unless you have super high standards for 10m shooting, you won't miss the tight ES of a regulated rifle but I imagine you will still want to fiddle with flattening the shot string and that can chew up a lot of time sending pellets over the chronograph. Especially at 6pfe. That's a lot of pellets :) With a regulator, it's soooooooo easy to dial it in.
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Aren't .22 usually a little more efficient with air on most rifles? Given the same power setting, you can get more shots out of the same gun with .22 than .177, albeit at a lower fps.
Ex. BSA Multishot Se, 45 max shots per fill in .177 cal. and 55 max shots per fill in .22 & .25
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Still a fan of the AA 200T. Still $525 with sights (and you’ll likely use a scope, so the sights could be sold to earn back some of the cost). May be a little short stocked (not as much as the old two-piece stock was, so keep some of the posts separate as they might be talking about the older version…internet info never dies, even when it’s out of date).
For at least some folks, all it takes to go (in .177) from 5.5 foot pounds to 12 foot pounds is a few turns on the transfer port screw…which is accessible on the right side of the receiver. Almost as simple as flipping a switch (so long as you have a 1.5mm allen key at hand).
Older two-piece stock at the top/ new one-piece stock at the bottom. It’s not a whole lot, but the new stocks are a bit longer than the old ones (and they changed the geometry of the pistol grip as well...better now for fat hands).
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/AA%20s200/7fdd942f-2ba7-497f-a20b-64fc3a8b3cff.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/AA%20s200/7fdd942f-2ba7-497f-a20b-64fc3a8b3cff.jpg.html)
So you can see by the above that I evidently have two of them. Yep...a .22 that's cranked up a little to about 16 foot pounds and a .177 (the new stock version) that alternates between 12 foot pounds (during squirrel season) and 5.5 foot pounds (the rest of the year). You'd have to test and write down the number of transfer port turns....but it works out to 125-130 useful 5.5 foot pound shots (the ones shown below) or +50 12 foot pound shots.
If you do find it too short, it’s a whole lot easier to lengthen a butt pad than it is to shorten one.
Posted on another (more “jaundiced”) web site, but in the mode of what you’re thinking about so far as a mild PCP.
Find myself going more and more to low powered PCP’s for practice sessions. Low end of the power scale doesn’t get a lot of posts, esp. concerning PCP’s.
Right about here, something like 8.5 out of 10 readers quit reading…could hear the door slam on a closed mind.
As I herded together more and more airguns, started returning some of the existing ones to what they do best. Not that you can’t speed them up, I have in times past cranked both of those rifles up in power. But now there are other PCP’s in the safe that do the “fast thing” so much better (and these do the “low speed thing” so much better than the fast ones).
Those who own a lot of PCP’s (and from the posts/pictures here, are some of ya’ll out there that try to own them all), is likely there is some PCP you bought way-back-when you started out, cranked it up, and got hooked on the PCP breed. Maybe a Discovery, Talon, M-Rod, or a CZ/AA 200…something that was made into a fast rife that can be re-tasked as an accurate, quiet, long shot count, low power practice PCP.
Anyway, not likely to convert anyone…likely preaching to a (small) choir.
These two get the most use, both indoors and outdoors. Shooting targets or plinking at 20-25 yards doesn’t take power. Trajectory over that short range isn’t an issue, power isn’t needed (or really wanted in suburbia), can be extremely quiet shooting, and the shot count makes for lots of time shooting/little time filling.
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/d0f2dbb3-cf85-4ccb-912e-98c5da906f02.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/d0f2dbb3-cf85-4ccb-912e-98c5da906f02.jpg" border="0" alt="photo d0f2dbb3-cf85-4ccb-912e-98c5da906f02.jpg">[/url]
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/d0f2dbb3-cf85-4ccb-912e-98c5da906f02.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/d0f2dbb3-cf85-4ccb-912e-98c5da906f02.jpg.html)
So for a total of 96 hand pump strokes, I filled both of them up from where they were stored (not stored empty, but also not stored full, normally store then nearer the bottom of the sweet spot than the top).
For those 96 pump strokes in, got 235 shots out. Admit, there were 5.2-5.5 foot pound shots, but what more did I really need for today?
Shot 25-30 shots from each on a standard target….pretty much a tie in grouping average at 20 yards.
Then I plinked, but for this post, plinked paper.
Basically drew M&M sized targets (anything from 9mm-10mm circles…was hungry…ate the M&M’s…although half of them were defective W&W’s…and I might have gotten the sugar-high-jittery-hands at some point.)
Just wanted to see, if I held right, how long it would take for groups to migrate to the bottom edge of an M&M sized circle. Basically, a 1 pellet diameter average drop @ 20yards.
No chronograph, just shooting circles. Wouldn’t care what the velocity was, just if it would stay inside an M&M.
Challenger migrated down to the bottom edge by about shot #110. AA 200T got there by shot #125. The AA probably could have squeezed out another 5 shots, but I didn’t feel like hunting up the marks-a-lot to draw one. Neither are super-efficient (yet), with FPE/cuin of something in the 1.2-1.25 area, so there is at least a 10% improvement possible.
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/63202dc6-3a17-40fc-8ff9-8eda5b883fa6.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/63202dc6-3a17-40fc-8ff9-8eda5b883fa6.jpg" border="0" alt="photo 63202dc6-3a17-40fc-8ff9-8eda5b883fa6.jpg">[/url]
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/63202dc6-3a17-40fc-8ff9-8eda5b883fa6.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/63202dc6-3a17-40fc-8ff9-8eda5b883fa6.jpg.html)
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/b0ed41ea-9ec7-45ae-ae7d-f52adeb8f434.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/b0ed41ea-9ec7-45ae-ae7d-f52adeb8f434.jpg" border="0" alt="photo b0ed41ea-9ec7-45ae-ae7d-f52adeb8f434.jpg">[/url]
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/b0ed41ea-9ec7-45ae-ae7d-f52adeb8f434.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/b0ed41ea-9ec7-45ae-ae7d-f52adeb8f434.jpg.html)
Don’t know how many feet-per-second it would take to show a 1/8” drop at 20yards, but can visually show that they’d have killed those M&M’s (if I hadn’t eaten them).
Just saying….PCP’s don’t have to be all about power. Hard to tell that from most PCP posts.
Not that I’m anti power. Do have some PCP’s set up for high power, and they do a lot of things well. Plinking and long sessions of target punching aren’t among them.
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This is interesting http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=52169&sid=cad047d8a2ecf085c9b7a14a3720b62d (http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=52169&sid=cad047d8a2ecf085c9b7a14a3720b62d)
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Plus: the adjustable butt version (and adnustable cheek piece) can be made longer for you long-armed guys and I really like the flat bottom fore end of the two-piece stock for sitting on bench-bags. The one piece stock has a nice rounded fore end for your hand in off hand shooting.
May be more limited to up-powering than than other models, but it's definitely one to look at for low power and accuracy. There is a basic internal difference (the transfer port inside the breech is smaller in the low powered version) in some of the AA 200T's really made for 7.5J shooting and those marked 16J (which allow for more adjustment).
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Hi All,
First of all I can't thank you all enough for your comments and suggestions. I really do appreciate the effort you all took to respond. Thank you! As soon as I can read and process all the posts I will respond to each poster.
for now I will give a small update on what little I was able to find out at work today.
So I knew Pyramid Air had the T200 and from my reading Champion's Choice also sells a slightly different rifle. It has the two piece furniture with adjustable butt plate and comb. Pyramid Air's version is the non adjustable one piece stock. They are the same price. Is one better than the other? I can't find specifications on the length of pulls. Does the adjustable stock butt extend for length and height?
I sent an email to Champion's Choice asking if the receiver has the transfer port power restrictor or is it the not adjustable receiver. It's hard to tell from their picture but it looks like there is an anti tamper screw where the transfer port restrictor shaft may be. I have attached pictures of both rifles.
Do you know if an individual can purchase the Champion's Choice rifle or do you have to be associated with a club etc.? Hopefully they respond to my email so I know for sure.
Thanks and I will now read your posts more thoroughly and respond.
Taso
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The second picture won't display but if you click on the link it will open up.
Taso
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Hey Tasso,
I would love to have a AA T200 someday, but $500+ is not a budget air gun!
To me, if you want accuracy on a budget, that means you gotta tinker, otherwise buy a T200 and bypass the budget :D.
Plus, the T200 has many BAM B50/B51 qualities ......... and you already have 4. That being said, I'm working on a broken B-26 -> go figure :P
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Mark,
I've got plenty of Rambo air rifles. :-) My next B51 project will be a .22. It's going to be a hot rod. Performance not pretty. ;) Hopefully it will shoot great at longer distances. I can't wait to try Nielsen Specialty Ammo .22 slugs and pellets. Maybe Piledrivers if they ever become available. But that rifle is for a future post. ;)
Justin,
Yeah, the T200 is getting the most right with me. I want to flush out all the alternatives. :D
Kirk,
I can't get comfortable with hpa bottles hanging off the front, back etc. I visualize them snapping off and blowing up. I know, I know. It's a very small chance but that's where my mind dwells. The bigger reason is I want a turn key gun. I will explain my reasons at the end of my post.
Moorepower,
I do like the 1720T. I initially thought that the barrel may be too short at 12 inches. So I did a little research and the 12 inch barrel does not hurt performance in this configuration. Two things that I would like to have, a more conservative shaped stock. So I am looking for one. The second is that it would be nice if it had the Marauder trigger.
The biggest downside is that the pistol alone is pretty expensive I found out. :( The 1399 stock is $25 but it's meh. The tactical model is $100 more than the plain pistol. I'm not into the tacti-cool look. On the plus it already has an ldc. I don't know how quiet it is but I need as silent as possible.
Dennis,
Your response is similar to Kirk's so my response to him also applies to you. I still thank you. :D
Jason,
Thank you for the response. For this gun I want turn key. If you see my response above, I really like the 1720T. The accessories may put me over my pricepoint. When you mentioned the regulator, was that on the 1720 or the QB? At the end I'm going to ask about shot counts. Ribbonstone touched on it I see.
Tworst,
I recently read a post where the .22 was supposed to be more efficient than .177. I didn't quite grasp why. I guess I have to find and read it again. I can see the bigger passages for .22 should be less restrictive but shouldn't the bigger passage waste air to fill before the pellet gets pushed? I can't wrap my brain around it. I do remember that power and barrel length are co related;)
Ribbonstone,
I think you understand me! Before I got back into air rifles seriously I shot power burners. I have 11 firearms. I shot my 22's the most and I had 4 of them. What am I getting at? I would boast about my 22's and tell everyone they needed one. They were my favorite guns and I really enjoyed them. They looked at me like I was crazy.
Sure, my ar-15, 44 mag super Blackhawk and 9mm Usp are great to shoot once in a while. They have their specific purpose but hardly ever get shot. When I just want to make holes in paper and hone my skills the 22lr always does me just fine.
So since getting to a range has become more difficult I found the 22lr replacement in low power .177 pellets. I'm a super big low powered .177 proponent. I can shoot them in my basement or back yard any time I want. That is huge.
So back to your post. It looks like there are many versions of this rifle. My understanding is that they are all made by CZ and there are different versions. Then Daisy and Air Arms get them rebranded and there are different versions. And in all this, versions were replaced over time. So like you said we need to be clear about which version we're discussing.
So I posted the pictures of the Air Arms T200 on Pyramid Air and the Champion's Choice T200 as I "think" those are the only ones currently available to purchase new right now.
Very good accuracy I see, or is it the shooter? ;) So the shot count is around 120. I had read that some stated 60 shots. Also I think there are two or three different air cylinders. One being longer and the 2 shorter, one with gauge on the end and the other with fill port on the end?
I doubt I would ever use the higher power mode. Does the power selector have detents? I was curious if it would move by itself and make the velocity inconsistent if it moves freely?
To All,
So to clarify my rifle goal. Please don't take this the wrong way. I love to tweak and tune and experiment. It's in my blood. I have been very tempted during the course of your responses to build, tweak, modify and frankenstein. ;) I don't blame you all one bit for the suggestions. But that is not the goal for "this" rifle. The next one, most likely. :D
1st and biggest reason is I want a "turn key" rifle to meet my specific niche. 2nd I want to see what a purpose specific, mass produced rifle is like. As a paradigm of sorts. I know perfection is subjective and more than my $500 ish price point. Mounting a scope and an ldc is all I want to do. I want to unbox it, fill it up and shoot it then put it away.
Also, I have so many unfinished projects that they make me a little nuts that I'm not 100% done with them. I currently have 4 modded rifles and they all have their idiosyncrasies, I think. They were all diamonds in the rough. I want to compare and contrast my handy work and vision. Are my tuning efforts lacking, equal or better than what is mass produced? This is all for fun and to learn.
Thank you for reading and sticking with me. I hope I got my thoughts and intent across because sometimes I'm not sure how to explain what I'm thinking precisely.
Thank you All,
Taso
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Ribbonstone,
Good idea for the sights. I could recoup some of the rifle cost.
Does anyone have a good 10 meter scope recommendation?
Thank you!
Taso
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Kirk,
I realized today that the T200 forearm has the same down cut by the air tube that goes forward to the tip. Interesting.
Taso
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BSA Scorpion, 599$ will get you a very good and very accurate rifle. There's a reason why BSA barrel blanks are in short supply. CZ200 would be my second choice.
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May I complicate the matter even further? http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1725715513/gamo-coyote-whisper-maxxim-pcp-air-rifle-pellet-beechwood-stock-blue-barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1725715513/gamo-coyote-whisper-maxxim-pcp-air-rifle-pellet-beechwood-stock-blue-barrel) :D :-\
This is fun, I get to show all the guns I would probably buy if i weren't married otherwise obligated.
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May I complicate the matter even further? http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1725715513/gamo-coyote-whisper-maxxim-pcp-air-rifle-pellet-beechwood-stock-blue-barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1725715513/gamo-coyote-whisper-maxxim-pcp-air-rifle-pellet-beechwood-stock-blue-barrel) :D :-\
This is fun, I get to show all the guns I would probably buy if i weren't married otherwise obligated.
It has BSA barrel but the downside is the Gamo trigger unit, CZ200 and Scorpion have already rather decent triggers.
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Hey Taso,
Just remember "Turn key" doesn't equal Budget ;D
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Kirk,
Yes, you are right. :D I meant to say my budget is compared to the $4000 match rifles. I thought the T200 would be the best option in the $500 ish price range. But since I have never seen one, let alone shoot one I was hoping to draw on the experience of others.
I also wanted one rifle that didn't need work, super quiet, accurate and long shot count. Believe me, I know it's a tall order and I was stuck. That is why I asked for All of the GTA member's help. And I appreciate all I have received! :D
Thank you,
Taso
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Taso,
I've been meaning to ask you: "Can I get a loan from you?"
My BSA's have permanently crimped my budget ;)
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Kirk,
Sure! Let me dig up my Dewey, Screwem & Howe loan application for you to fill out. 8)
Taso
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I would like a BSA to crimp my budget. ;D
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Word about AA 200T’s. Are some that make adjusting very difficult, usually for either the countries that have strict (low) power limits but they find their way into the US market too. The ones sold in the US market (mostly Pyramid or TopGun) are adjustable. Pyramid will even tell you how to speed them up.
So if considering a used AA 200T, ask about any “anti-tamper” device (non-slotted striker spring screw/covered transfer port screw location).
Have not tried the Edge, has the speed and accuracy, but wonder (from using a way-down tuned Talons SS) about the scope height. Just seems difficult to guess hold over on tiny targets (M&M sized) that crop up at 7 or 10 yards when you’re sighted in for 20 yards.
If you like really small and light weight (which does make it harder to really shoot well), the Crosman 1720 and 1701 make nice little carbines. Would have to swap the 1720’s transfer port with a 1701 port to easily get it down to those mid 500’s speeds,,,, or live with the really small air volume of a 1701 (and a stock).
Before they made 1720’s, I made up a little carbine on a 1700 (yeah…before the 1701 there was a 1700).
Comparison in size. That’s not a 1720, it’s a .22 P-rod with a shroud extension…but that P-Rod would be the same length as a 1720. Did @@@ a shroud to the 1700, and a front sight.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/P-ROD/6896ba43-8bc9-4823-ae62-c10a0ea43c66.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/P-ROD/6896ba43-8bc9-4823-ae62-c10a0ea43c66.jpg.html)
And of course, could use a 1701 as a pistol as well.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/pistol%205meters/990eb0e1-8e7a-4874-bea6-ec38d3358f0f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/pistol%205meters/990eb0e1-8e7a-4874-bea6-ec38d3358f0f.jpg.html)
Not sure how many 4% shots it would get, but there are 40 shots inside of 3% variation (from a really-really small air volume that is ridiculously easy to refill).
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/P-ROD/868858a6-d279-473c-bb40-99ef57000bc5.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/P-ROD/868858a6-d279-473c-bb40-99ef57000bc5.jpg.html)
Think the 1720 would be easier. If you just changed the transfer port for one for a 1701, would likely get something in the same low speed range, but with more air volume, would get more shots.
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Check out the T200 on targettalk.org:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=52169&sid=cad047d8a2ecf085c9b7a14a3720b62d (http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=52169&sid=cad047d8a2ecf085c9b7a14a3720b62d)
It's the adjustable stock Champ Choice version. Asking price is $500 but seller also said make offer... so get it for less than retail. Then maybe take the savings and buy a Lane Regulator. Installing it would be easy with the removable cylinder. I shoot 10m pistol and the removable cylinder isn't a big deal when getting over 100 shots per fill.
The transfer port screw cover is not anti-tamper, its just a cover as on the AA MPR.
With the shorter air cylinder, installing an LDC on the T200 would be much easier than the Challenger.
Learning to shoot diopter sights is fun, interesting and more of a challenge than easy peasy scopes at 10m. Then you'll want to get better diopter sights with adjustable iris & colored filters and adjustable front iris and.... ;D I have some low/mid grade adjustable diopter sights on my Challenger and they are examples of really fine German craftsmanship.
Or heck, the Hammerli 850 CO2 rifle is really accurate, cheap(er) and gets lots of shots w/ 88g cartridges. Some electrical tape wrapped around the holes in the accessory moderator makes it very quiet.
I also have a 1720T and it is quite accurate & easy to quiet. But the trigger out of the box needs some work... or replacement?
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Someone is selling an air arms s500 on the yellow for $750. I have one and at one point it was set up for 14 ftlb and I got over 100 consistent shots with it. That's a lot of shots so you aren't pumping all the time. Deadly accurate and quiet. Build quality that far exceeds most of what is being suggested to you.
Whatever you get, if you're hand pumping, you'll want to tear down your gun regularly to dry out the moisture that always gets in with hand pumps.
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OK...back into AA 200T lore.
Are two types of air tubes. One with a fill fitting at the end of the tube (but no gauge) and one with a gauge at the end of the tube (but you have to unscrew the tube to fill from the back end).
Turns out, even though I didn't think I would, I LIKE removing the air cylinder and filling it detached from the rifle. Like it enough that I fill the other rifle (with a fill fitting )form the back end too. Just makes more sense to me for a pump filler to lay the tube down to fill than to lay the whole rifle down to fill.
I mention the above as if you do have to remove the air tube to fill, will need a skinny LDC, or one with a flat bottom, in order for the tube to pass. The one in the previous picture is about as fat as you can get and still pass the tube under it.
The tube do interchange. There are aftermarket mods to allow both a front fill on the rifle (with a probe) and a gauge.
MORE likely the target stocked version (the one with the adjustable butt and cheek) to be limited in power; that's OK for your intended use, I just mention it for others reading this. It isn't all about the striker spring cap being slotted and the transfer port screw, are some low powered versions where the internal pathway that the transfer port screw works on is much smaller in size...so the transfer port screw (if it has one, as some sold in various countries doesn't have the screw at all) in one of those narrow transfer port rifles will not be able to vary in power much at all.
If you know you'll never want to easily ramp it up to more power, then the $500 (or best offer) used version shown might be a good deal. Sell the sights (they are the same sights used on several AA rifles, the Crosman Challenger, and likely a few others)...or put them aside, as using match sights can be very entertaining (Keep 3 rifles with match sights only).
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Ok, I will add one more to the mix. I just got back inside and I found that a 2240 with a recrowned 1377 barrel shot 5 10.3 JSB's into 1/2-3/4" at 22yds with a 2.5x NC star pistol scope. With th TKO, you could shoot this in your house all day.
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Hi,
Does anyone know the seller fourts on Targettalk that Mark and Fred found? He only has 6 posts. I'm a little bit of a worry wart so I'd rather pay the $525 and have the vendor support and a factory warranty, just in case. I need peace of mind.
So is the consensus that the Champion's Choice T200 version has more of what I'm looking for versus the Pyramid Air version?
The T200 are the leaders right now. 2nd place I would put the Disco's R Us Disco FT. Third I would put the Challenger and 1720T tied.
I'm 99% sure the rifle will stay at 550 fps. I want this one un altered. I have other rifles that shoot hot much better anyway.
I will need to make sure I have the right connectors to fill from a pump. I'm sure CC or PA can guide me there unless you have some recommendations?
I have plenty of cheap scopes to start with. Most likely a 4x AO Rex scope I bought from Mike M. So far they have suited my needs real well. And if one breaks I won't cry lol. It most likely will be covered under warranty unless I use it as a hammer lol.
In the next month, if the rifle is not already silent, I'll pick up a TKO or an ldc from David (Rocker1).
Another tube may be nice and I'll have a backup if one fails. Can't shoot the rifle with out a tube. How many more shots will the longer tube give?
Will this rifle at 550 fps benefit from a regulator since it already shoots pretty impressively and at 10m? A super small es is not necessary at 10m correct? Obviously it can't hurt.
There was something else I wanted to ask but I can't remember right now.
Thank you All,
Taso
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I was in the same state of mind a while back so I got a AR2079B, fixed her up and now she just shoots tiny little groups in the 725fps ish fps range with 7.9gr CPHPs - the trigger is great and she was inexpensive for what she does.
Since this picture was taken she now has a 17cu bottle not the 14cu that was on the gun. Been so long I don't remember what my out going was, either 800 or 1100 ? The scope is now a 8-32 Mueller target dot. Flies that land on my target don't have a chance ;- )
http://s20.postimg.org/u8lpliebh/Dragon_Fly_smx.jpg (http://s20.postimg.org/u8lpliebh/Dragon_Fly_smx.jpg)
wll2506
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Will this rifle at 550 fps benefit from a regulator since it already shoots pretty impressively and at 10m? A super small es is not necessary at 10m correct?
At 10 yards, a 4% ES (22fps) will have a vertical spread of about 0.05". In other words, a little more than 1/4 of the width of a pellet.
Every doubling of ES will double the vertical spread. So an 8% ES (44fps) would have a vertical spread of 0.10", and a 16% ES (88fps) would have a spread of 0.20".
The vertical stringing tool in Chairgun makes it easy for you to look at other scenarios if you want. Do note that it asks for a +fps variation so if you want to explore an ES of, say, 20fps you would instead enter 10 in the box because +10 is a 20fps spread. (For the sticklers, that's not quite 100% congruous with the popular way of relating ES to the max velocity, but close enough for these purposes).
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Just going to mention. Can usually find a discount code for Pyrmanid, often a 10% code….and if you’re going to put an LDC on it, aren’t going to use the sights. Hunt up a 5% or 10% discount code and sell the sights…you’ll be down to $450-$420.
Own a Challenger, but I really dislike the bolt system (can search here…are quite a few folks less than thrilled about the bolt system). Mounting an LDC on one is not easy. Barrel actually ends well before the end of the air tube, it’s that square front sight base that extends it to the length of the air tube. There is one on mine, and I can tell you first hand that getting a round LDC to mount on a square sight base takes a bit of home-work (don’t think anyone makes one commercially).
Nearly $500, but the DiscoRUs FT version is kind of a cross between a Challenger and a Discovery, and likely worth the asking price (and praise be, it doesn’t have that Challenger bolt sytem). Still have an LDC problem, but you get the LW barrel and M-Rod type trigger. BUT I don’t know if they’d be willing to make one that shoots as slow as you’re thinking (pretty sure using a Challenger transfer port would slow it down to Challenger speeds). Can always call ‘em and ask.
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Of all my guns, the one I would grab for the activity you describe is my 177 caliber BAM B50 with Rocker1 LDC. It is so accurate and by far the quietest airgun I have. And it tends to hold zero over the months better than my other airguns too.
I did a full tune (which isn't that difficult), but the most important thing is to polish/taper the inleade (where the pellet slides into the bore when you close the bolt). Both my BAMs needed this. Both crowns were fine on mine without any work.
I say don't give up on your BAMs. You may already own the gun you are seeking.
Ray
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Thanks Ray.
My 5 fpe B51 is just so close to being done. It's like you go from point A to B but you can only go half the remaining distance every step. You can get real close but you never actually get to B. That's how it feels. Sometimes things are going great and then you get a setback.
I tried to do a brass screw crown job on that B51. There's an about 1/8th inch recessed step from the factory and the screws don't reach the rifling. So I lookup crown cutters. They're like $140 all said and done with the brass pilots. So I read someone was using a cartridge trimmer. I price that out with the steel pilot, no brass ones available, and it's like $45 shipped. I get it delivered and its much smaller than I thought. The pilot extends 1/2 inch into the barrel and is mostly tapered. So it doesn't do a lot of stabilizing. The cutter is larger diameter than my barrel so it should work. So I start by hand and am getting no where. I chuck it in my slow screwdriver and it cuts but is leaving radial chatter marks. I'm mad now. So I put the cutter in a faster drill hoping the speed will remove the high spots. Checking every so often the chatter marks are reduced but now the crown is no longer 90 degrees! @#$%^&!!!!
So I dig out my files and a square and smooth and square it up again. Phew! So I start with the brass screw crowning. I use three grits with a new screw for each grit. I get a nice chamfer on the end but I don't see nice crisp lands and grooves under magnification. So I think the steel pilot wrecked the rifling. More cursing ensues, I call my self names and question all the time I've spent trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Time is money and I calculate how much money I've thrown away.
I don't touch my pcp's for 3 weeks and enjoy the simplicity of my springers and CMP 853 refurb. And you know what else? They just work! I go and shoot them and they do what is expected of them. Granted the springers are all full tunes from Mike Melick and unmolested by me lol. I did have to replace the top cover on the 853 because the rear threads were stripped and kept popping up from the stock.
So I miss my B51 and try to rescue it. I push pellets through from the breech and there is pretty perfect and very shallow rifling. Also I feel more resistance in the last inch so the barrel may be choked. Or rusty! lol I'm just kidding.
I push pellets in from the muzzle about half an inch in total and push them out. Just to isolate the muzzle end. They too have shallow but even rifling. So I realize it's not as bad as I thought. And I've never shot the rifle for accuracy. It may already be capable of great accuracy.
Would I do it all over again? Heck yeah! I learned a lot.
So Ray, the T200 will serve many functions for me.
Sorry everyone for my rant but I do feel better now! ;D
Now on with your regularly scheduled program......
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Ribbonstone,
I've tried to apply coupons before but they never take anything off the price. In the T200 listing under the price on the right side it says:
"Excluded from coupons
This item is not eligible for coupon discounts"
If I remember correctly the CMP or some other organizing body puts a price limit on the rifles. So I think the Challenger and T200 are limited to $525? I read it somewhere a while ago.
Taso
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Go to AGD, they off the gun at $525; it's eligible for discounts.
I never buy a gun unless I get 10% to 15% off :D
Kirk
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Hi All,
I apologize if I offended anyone with my rant. It seems talking about my tinkeritis brought this thread to a screeching halt. I didn't not intend that. :(
Taso
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The best thing about the t200 is its CZ barrel, which is a very good thing. It uses an action originally designed for a pistol and the way it is mounted in the stock is kind of funky. Air Arms and other US distributors market the Air Arms version with the one piece stock while CC sells the original CZ two piece stock. I have heard that the CZ target model is non adjustable, which in my opinion is not a good thing.
The T200 puts out lots of shots on a charge and is a fun plinker and play target gun. Due to its configuration it can be prone to shifting poi.
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Thank You Scrane. Can you elaborate on the shifting point of aim?
Kirk,
I tried applying a first time buyer agd coupon code but it still doesn't take anything off the T200 rifle. It did take off 4 bucks from the din to foster adapter.
All,
I found out that the S400 is not like the T200. The T200 is based off the CZ rifle and the S400 is Air Arms. From what Scrane said the T200 is based off a pistol?
Which is better suited to my requirements do you think? T200 or S400. I dont think the S400 is twice as good as the T200. But if there is some benefit to paying double please point it out or agree that the benefit isn't there.
We are comparing the one piece stock version of the T200 to the S400 MPR.
Thank you!
Taso
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The t200 is analogous to an old style falling breach action as opposed to the more common and easily bedded tubular receiver. When you look closely the action rests on a very thin piece of wood in the front.
It is very sensitive to how tightly the action is torqued.
IMO the AA MPR-FT is a very fine rifle and technically superior to the t200. Unfortunately it has been discontinued. It is a gun I regret selling. The one criticism that comes up is has a short length of pull, although it came from the factory supplied with butt spacers. Not easy to Find nowadays.
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Taso, I have an S400 carbine and will say it is an excellent rifle. Very light, compact and accurate. I think the T200 would be a better choice for you this time considering your requirements. You can turn the power down on the S400 but you won't get near as many shots as you would with the 200.
Whoops sorry, just noticed that you were asking about the mpr.
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Hi All,
I just wanted to give a little closure to this post. A member on here reached out to me with an FWB 601 he wanted to sell. I picked it up and I am real happy with it. But gosh, is it heavy. I know in time I will get used to it. It is super accurate. I have not changed any configurations.
I still think a lighter rifle has a spot in my gun rack. MPR, T200 and 1720T's are on my watch lists. The MPR and T200 will need ldc's. The 1720T will need a stock and possibly the M-Rod/P-Rod trigger. The Challenger stock would be nice but it's around $140. The trigger is around $50 I think.
Thanks to all for your suggestions and help!
Taso
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I bet a BSA Ultra with an LDC or shroud would be a sweet little gun.
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I bet a BSA Ultra with an LDC or shroud would be a sweet little gun.
Just saw a 22 cal multi-shot on the AOA used list for under $400....
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Donny and Andy,
Thanks for the BSA Ultra recommendation. When I was researching the BSA R10, as I need a super quiet rifle and the black wrapped version had dropped to $622, the ultra kept popping up. I checked it out but it looks odd in pictures. Does it look like that in person?
I forgot to mention in my previous point that I have my 5 fpe B51 pretty much sorted out mechanically. Now I need to put lead to paper and accuracy test in my basement.
Thanks,
Taso
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I've never handled one in person, but I think it is basically a short barreled rifle, which is why it looks funny. It would probably look more "normal" with a LDC or good shroud on it. Maybe someone that has one can chime in?
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I forgot to mention in my previous point that I have my 5 fpe B51 pretty much sorted out mechanically. Now I need to put lead to paper and accuracy test in my basement.
Try the Air Arms 10.34 grain pellets in your 177 BAM. https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-field-heavy-177-cal-4-52mm-10-34-grains-domed-500ct?p=713 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-arms-field-heavy-177-cal-4-52mm-10-34-grains-domed-500ct?p=713)
Both my 177 BAMs shoot them very precisely (and they don't shoot any other pellet nearly as well).
I tapered and polished the inleade on both guns which seems to be necessary to eliminate pellet damage when loading. Both crowns were good from the factory.
When I first saw your post, I wanted to reply 177 BAM B50 with Rocker1 LDC, but I saw you already had like five of the BAMs. Mine are super quiet and super accurate and get very good shot count per fill - 35 to 40 shots on 2200 (gun 2) to 2400 (gun 1) psi fill.
Ray
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Thanks Ray. I will put the Air Arms pellets on my shopping list. I recently got about 5 different wadcutters to test. Hopefully I can get some groups on paper to see how the B51 shoots.
I had initially bought 3 new old stock B51's to start modifying. While I was trying to complete the first, a 5 fpe project rifle, a B51 and a B50 showed up in the classifieds. I just had to give them a new home. :-)
Thanks,
Taso
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I had initially bought 3 new old stock B51's to start modifying. While I was trying to complete the first, a 5 fpe project rifle, a B51 and a B50 showed up in the classifieds. I just had to give them a new home. :-)
Let me know when you are ready to sell any of your BAM airguns.
Ray
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Ray,
Ok, but I may be a while. ;D
Taso
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If you are frugal and already have the B51 and are tired of tinkering. You might want to talk to Motorhead on the cost of a tune and upgraded barrel. There is also Mac1 he may have something that fits your needs. No matter what any off the shelf airgun regulated or not may need to be tinkered with to get it to you liking. JMO
Oops didn't notice this has 4 pages might have missed something when posting. sorry
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Ray,
It's all good. If you search regulated B51 you should be able to find my post on it. I don't remember if I linked to it in this post.
Taso
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LIkely already posted somthing like this.
Personally, like wood/metal/detachable LDC's, and actually prefer single shots.
Also like the BAM's, but keep to faster power limits for thse higher energy/louder/single shot rifles. Kind of big,heavy, rifles, where power and longer ranges seem to be what they are best at. I pretty much recognize that all wood and thick metal is NEVER going to be "slinky lite" so don't really try to run a race they just can't win (not a matter of "good" or "bad"... a medal winning Olympic shot-putter just isn't going to be viable in the 100meter dash).
For shot range backyard plinking/basement target, tend to go with lighter rifles, lower power, much higher shot counts. There is nothing that needs to be shot hard, just hit center.
Finding one rifle that can do both is a great goal....but as you already have 1/2 the equation, seems to me that (1) taking the BAMs up in power would cover the non-backyard/plinking duty and (2) a no compromise back yard rifle would take care of the rest.
Guve you 2 examples (actually 4):
Two heavy weight BAM's, one in .22 (51) one in .177 (50): 40 and 25 foot pounds:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/BAM51/b4b75dda-44b0-48fa-906b-2a3924435c5f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/BAM51/b4b75dda-44b0-48fa-906b-2a3924435c5f.jpg.html)
Two light weight AA 200's, one in .22 (A200) and one in .177 (200T): 15 and 8 foot pounds
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/AA%20s200/2a28c1f2-2c42-4212-a942-919bcb021a31.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/AA%20s200/2a28c1f2-2c42-4212-a942-919bcb021a31.jpg.html)
If push came to shove, is there really antything airgunnish I couldn't do with those 4?
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i got a b50 in .177 set to 12 fpe that gets charged to 1700 psi and gives me 52 consistent shots... she is not too loud with a naked crown (about as loud as a co2 bb pistol) but i was able to secure a huntsman LDC that makes it silly quiet. If Rally shark was out with blackdiesel shooting then i have met him and he has seen this B50 shooting cans and such out to about 90 yards... i think they are way underrated and can be made to shoot quite well. I have even turned mine down to 6fpe... for back yard fun is unbeatable. I also own a s200 and the only thing that bthe s200 has in top of the Bam is size...
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"..own a s200 and the only thing that bthe s200 has in top of the Bam is size..."
Which is kind of the point; having two rifles that cover the same caliber/accuracy/energy is fun, but doesn't make for a minimum number or rifles cover the maximum tasks. Shucks, I'm pretty guilty of that, having several that cover the same task.
Just saying that if I had a choice, would let the BAM's run fast and powerful, and pick something more suited to backyard distances/noise levels.
On those rare occasions when you have no idea what ranges you'll face...take 'em both along.
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Hi All,
Thanks for all the suggestions and great points you've made.
I now know the B50/51's forte are that they are powerhouses. My main attraction to them is that they were solid steel foundations to tweak and they were cheap. They only cost me about $240 with shipping included. They are neither small or light. A .177 B51 is 7.5 pounds. At that time I hadn't found a better platform. The majority of the time I shoot off a bench rest.
I have found I like tweaking and shooting about the same. I like it even more when my tweaks are an improvement!
I did luck out and find the FWB 601 recently. It made me realize that I still did want a lighter accurate pcp.
So with that being said:
Paul, hopefully this recently crowned barrel will shoot well. If it doesn't I have three other barreled receivers to try out. I had reached out to Motorhead about machining an aftermarket barrel to work in a B50/51 receiver. Back then I was asking about .25 but I will have to ask if he'd do a .177 Lothar Walther barrel if my current barrels aren't accurate enough for me.
Ribbonstone, I too do not like rifles that perform the same function. I also don't like rifles that don't get shot. I'm not a collector I guess. ;) While I am drawn to the larger calibers they will get me in trouble shooting them in my back yard. Larger than .177 necessitates it would be a range gun.
My next project will probably be a 20 fpe .177 B51 for pest control.
I can't tell you how many times the T200 and MPR have been in my shopping cart and then removed. :o
Taso
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In my opinion wad cutters are not that great for target shooting, they're fine in my co2 pistols but in my Disco they're about the most terrible pellet there is for accuracy.
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That's why they're used exclusively for international target competition!?!? Wadcutters don't like to be oversped, which makes them unstable. Keep them at lower/mid power/velocity and semi-short range and wadcutters are 'Da Bomb' for accuracy and terminal SMACK!
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There is no airgun that you'd use more than a basement/backyard plinker, so it's worth getting that one dead-right. It is going to be the most shot, most used, airgun in your collection, so don't compromise from your first posts or you'll just be back looking for another rifle later on.
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Ribbonstone,
When you're right you're right! I just ordered the T200 from Pyramid Air. Too bad I can't apply any coupons but that is ok. I'm going to place a 2nd order for the fill adapter and some pellets. Should I get the degassing tool too?
Thank you All for your help!
Taso
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I was going to suggest a webley raider 10 from airguns of arizona. $299. I know those can be tuned down and regulated, unless they come regulated. There is that British hunting show on youtube, fieldsports channel. The one airgun one uses that rifle.
i hope you enjoy your T200.
I love the BAM air rifles. I have wanted one forever. I think i could even say i wanted one more then a benjamin maraude . I just could never find one in all he years i have been looking. Wanted a BAM50 in particular.
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Michael,
Thank you! I'm excited!
You can still buy new old stock B50's from the Canadian Airgun Forum Store:
http://www.airgunforum.ca/store/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=98 (http://www.airgunforum.ca/store/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=98)
The prices you see on the website are in Canadian dollars. Shipping is $40 Canadian the last time I purchased.
Taso
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Until you mentioned it (and I looked it up) had no idea any of these were still out there for sale.
Last issue were HAtsan made, which I have no problem with, but the UK shooters are more nationalistic than US shooters and turned away from it in droves. US shooters weren't too thrilled by a smaller air volume/lower shot count/heavy weight PCP either. Been a good rifle for me, but it's a "pot belly pig" as far as weight is concerned.
Pretty wood, nicely styles stock (although rather thick at the forearm), with an oddly placed bolt (which the English made version also had).
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/5mm/8c697149-4fa4-431d-b10f-0cbb6ed2c63e.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/5mm/8c697149-4fa4-431d-b10f-0cbb6ed2c63e.jpg.html)
Wanted a 5mm PCP, and tracked down the last of the last 5mm versions I know of.
Even with alight scope, it's heavy (like +9 pounds). No way to really get it all lite-n-handy, so I put the heaviest scope I had on her (figuring if you can't make it lite, go ahead and use the bar-bell scope on her).
Do like the rifle, but a great lite weight, backyard pliker/basement target rifle, it isn't.
As for your choice of an AA 200t...been a great rifle. Down at target speeds of about 5 foot pounds, can manage a whole lot of good shots (about 100). Cranking it up to higher speeds (like 12 foot pounds) can be as easy as turning out the transfer port restriction screw.
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I am sorry. I didnt know that it was so heavy or had an extremely small air volume.
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Michael,
Thank you! I'm excited!
You can still buy new old stock B50's from the Canadian Airgun Forum Store:
http://www.airgunforum.ca/store/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=98 (http://www.airgunforum.ca/store/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=98)
The prices you see on the website are in Canadian dollars. Shipping is $40 Canadian the last time I purchased.
Taso
"dang" it. I had to see that after i purchased my maximus! >:(
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Michael,
If you can cancel your order or refuse delivery you should be able to not get stuck with the Maximus. But I will be honest with you. You will have to go through the B50 because the orings have deteriorated and become brittle. It may be ok initially, as my 3 had air in them when I got them. But once you ask the orings to flex with different pressure, shoot down and fill up,, I think that causes them to leak.
But all pcp's leak to a certain extent or will leak. It's inevitable because orings don't last forever.
They are simple guns to work on though. Simple designs with no tricks.
Taso
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Michael,
If you can cancel your order or refuse delivery you should be able to not get stuck with the Maximus. But I will be honest with you. You will have to go through the B50 because the orings have deteriorated and become brittle. It may be ok initially, as my 3 had air in them when I got them. But once you ask the orings to flex with different pressure, shoot down and fill up,, I think that causes them to leak.
But all pcp's leak to a certain extent or will leak. It's inevitable because orings don't last forever.
They are simple guns to work on though. Simple designs with no tricks.
Taso
To late. I have had my maximus for a little bit. I actually had to send the first back because it was completely messed up. The new one looks very nice so far. No leaks either. I plan on doing a full review once i get the problems with my hill mk3 handpump sorted out.
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Over the years, have found detachable tube PCP's easier to work on (when/if work is needed). The only part that can leak unscrews/detaches, so can work on it in isolation. ...are pretty much attacking both ends (fill/valve) from the outside rather than having to get to the valve on the inside. One of the reasons I like Hatsans and AA 200's, although the AA200's have been pretty trouble free over the years.
The oldest is the .22 AA s200 (made in 2003). Have had to go in and fix the fill nipple (the old ones have a great big industrial looking air hose fitting) twice, but the rest of it is still hanging in there (YEAH...I know...the valve end O-rings are 13 years old...but if it don't leak, don't fart with it).
The 200T's usually come with a gauged tube. That's nice, but you also have to uncrew the tube to fill it from the valve end. Turns out, I actually like that...just easier to fill the tube off the rifle than it is to lay the rifle down to fill it....so I end up filling BOTH the fill nipple and the gauged tube by detaching and filling from the valve end (which may be one reason the stock finish has lasted so well...it's not been constantly laid on the ground).
The only down side to this is that if you add an LDC, will have to be one skinny enough for the air tube to pass under it, or a specialty flat-bottomed LDC. Can get the air tube to pass under a 7/8" round LDC, but not a 1" LDC.
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Michael,
I'm sorry. Must have misunderstood.
Taso
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Michael,
I'm sorry. Must have misunderstood.
Taso
no sorries needed. I just wish i looked harder before i purchased the maximus. I hope you enjoy your t200.
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So you can get a B50 from the Canadian supplier, but it is $270 plus $40 shipping? If so, I see why they have not sold out. I bought both mine for $180 shipped.
Ray
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Ray,
Yes but those prices are in Canadian dollars. You'll have to check the current exchange rate but approximately 3/4 of that total would be in American dollars.
Taso
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Hi,
Does anyone know the seller fourts on Targettalk that Mark and Fred found? He only has 6 posts. I'm a little bit of a worry wart so I'd rather pay the $525 and have the vendor support and a factory warranty, just in case. I need peace of mind.
So is the consensus that the Champion's Choice T200 version has more of what I'm looking for versus the Pyramid Air version?
The T200 are the leaders right now. 2nd place I would put the Disco's R Us Disco FT. Third I would put the Challenger and 1720T tied.
I'm 99% sure the rifle will stay at 550 fps. I want this one un altered. I have other rifles that shoot hot much better anyway.
I will need to make sure I have the right connectors to fill from a pump. I'm sure CC or PA can guide me there unless you have some recommendations?
I have plenty of cheap scopes to start with. Most likely a 4x AO Rex scope I bought from Mike M. So far they have suited my needs real well. And if one breaks I won't cry lol. It most likely will be covered under warranty unless I use it as a hammer lol.
In the next month, if the rifle is not already silent, I'll pick up a TKO or an ldc from David (Rocker1).
Another tube may be nice and I'll have a backup if one fails. Can't shoot the rifle with out a tube. How many more shots will the longer tube give?
Will this rifle at 550 fps benefit from a regulator since it already shoots pretty impressively and at 10m? A super small es is not necessary at 10m correct? Obviously it can't hurt.
There was something else I wanted to ask but I can't remember right now.
Thank you All,
Taso
why would you need a scope at 10 meters. it would get very boring after a short time. if you shoot the sites that come with it more rewarding and easy to learn. be advised the T200 is a small rifle like a kids size
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I have issues with match sights. I am nearsighted with astigmatism. I've never used match sights till I received my CMP refurb 853 about a year ago. In the past I've always used post and notch type sights with no issues but I never shot for one hole groups.
While I can align everything inside the front sight when shooting at 10 meter bulls at 10 meters, I cannot center the outside of the front sight within the rear peep. I cannot see clearly all the way around the front sight. I see basically the profile of a football and it's positioned diagonally when I look through the rear peep.
I don't know if it's my astigmatism or the progressive lenses in my glasses. So either there is something wrong with my prescription or I'm doing something wrong.
Right now it's easier to align everything with a scope and thus more enjoyable. I am not giving up on the open sights so I'll have to find a remedy for my issue.
Thank you All for your help. :)
Taso
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This is what I shot last night. They are 5 shot groups out of my sandbagged FWB 601 at 10 meters. Pellets were all wadcutters: H&N Sport, Benjamin Wadcutters, RWS Basic, RWS Hobby and Crosman Super Match. The black circles are almost 1 3/16th inches across.
I need to find heavier paper to print targets on, since this paper tears so easily, but you can make out most of the impacts.
Thanks,
Taso
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These are the targets I shot last night. Same pellets, same distance, same targets. The difference is that I used my CMP 853 with a BSA 6-24 scope. It was already on the rifle for pellet testing. I did shoot at 24 power.
Also, I added 4 clicks up and 4 clicks right after the second target so that is why point of impact changed.
As you can see, if I can see I can shoot well.
Taso
EDIT: I forgot to mention, I used a plastic election sign as a backer. It worked better but I have ordered some 60 lb paper to try. And these are 5 shot groups.
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While I can align everything inside the front sight when shooting at 10 meter bulls at 10 meters, I cannot center the outside of the front sight within the rear peep. I cannot see clearly all the way around the front sight. I see basically the profile of a football and it's positioned diagonally when I look through the rear peep.
I don't know if it's my astigmatism or the progressive lenses in my glasses. So either there is something wrong with my prescription or I'm doing something wrong.
My optometrist told me that a few patients have brought their guns in (with advance notice) when they had their eyes tested.
He said that helps get a more suitable prescription, but at a certain point with presbyopia there's not much to be done.
Worth a try, though, if you're having problems.
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IGNORE THE BULLSEYE CENTER...all you need with match sights is to be able to consistently frame the round black bullseye in the center of the front sight's ring. Eyte is very good at centering a circle in a circle. So even when you cannot possible see the 10 rignt or the X-ring, if you center the whole bull in the center of the front sight ring, your hols can be very consistent....just have to adjust the sight to allow the pellet to plunk into the middle of the big black bullseye.
BUT...match sights are terrible at these things:
1. Low light. All the light you get to sight by is whatever passes through that tiny little hole in the rear disk. Works fine in bright light, kind of suxs in dim light.
2. Low contrast targets. Even in good light, sorting out the fur from the tree bark is much harder with match sights.
3. Irregular shaped objects. Match sights are made to shoot round bullseyes...anything oblong, irregular, or oddly shaped is going to draw your eye to the fattest part.
4. "guesstimating" hold over or wind hold off. Actually turns out to be really hard to NOT center the bull in the front ring even when you want to.
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Ribbonstone,
Thank you for the confirmations. Just to be clear. I'm not having a problem lining up the black area of the target inside the front sight. I'm good with that. The issue I'm having is aligning the outer most circle of the front sight with having equal space around the rear sight hole. I'm not sure if its called peep or aperture or diopter. I need to look all these terms up.
I've attached a picture to explain. The ring I've marked with a red "1" is the one I'm having trouble with. The edge marked with a red "2" instead of being nice and crisp as in the picture it is blurry and oval. It is the only part that is blurry to me.
Taso
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I forgot to add. I will shoot one group of H&N Sports tonight with my single vision glasses to see if it helps. No trifocals.
Taso
EDIT: The T200 arrived early so no groups tonight. I'm "shooting" for tomorrow. ;)
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Hello All,
The Air Arms T200 was delivered about an hour ago! Two days earlier than Pyramid Air estimated. I must be very close to their warehouse.
I took a picture of it next to a new BAM B51. I thought it would be tiny. It definitely is not. I am very glad about that!
I lined up the triggers the best I could to compare dimensions. Length of pull is very close. The T200 is about 1/2 inch shorter by my estimations. Length of pull on the T200 is almost 14 inches measure from the perpendicular part of the trigger straight back to the butt pad while parallel to the barrel. Measured the same way, the B51 length of pull is a little over 14 1/4 inches.
I'd like to add to the length of pull because my face is real close to the bolt when mounted and I'd like to add a butt pad that can be adjusted down to raise the comb up so I don't have to scrunch my head down.
While the comparison shows the length of pull is similar, the T200 feels way trimmer/leaner. It weighs 6.08 pounds as in my picture without the sights. Now that I have the FWB 601 I doubt I will use them. I'm sure they will up for sale soon.
I am excited to mount a scope or red dot to shoot it but I want to read the manual first.
From my first impression I am smitten. I'm thinking another one at the 16 joule level may do the trick for pesting. But no and back to reality, a .177 B51 in the 20 fpe range will suffice. But time will tell and all plans have a way of changing. ;)
Taso
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A head up position is my preference and I have adjustable butt plates on several airguns/pb's. Until you can get an adjustable butt plate you might try mounting the rifle with the toe of the butt just under your collar bone at the top of the humerus which will raise the comb of the rifle up closer to your cheek. This could mitigate, to some degree, the short pull of the stock. I do this with the vintage Bens and Dans.
Found a video that shows, at 05:00 to 08:00 minutes, elements of this concept and more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11HE5Viuuw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11HE5Viuuw)
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Terry,
Thanks for the suggestion. I will try that and see how it goes. I also have a TKO on order.
Taso
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Ribbonstone,
Thank you for the confirmations. Just to be clear. I'm not having a problem lining up the black area of the target inside the front sight. I'm good with that. The issue I'm having is aligning the outer most circle of the front sight with having equal space around the rear sight hole. I'm not sure if its called peep or aperture or diopter. I need to look all these terms up.
I've attached a picture to explain. The ring I've marked with a red "1" is the one I'm having trouble with. The edge marked with a red "2" instead of being nice and crisp as in the picture it is blurry and oval. It is the only part that is blurry to me.
Taso
If you watch a shooting coach walk up the line he is always saying front site only. forget the rear site. it is to zero the rifle then only to see the front site. as long as you see the front site and the margin of white is the same around the bull fire the rifle. load and keep firing thinking only about the front site. try it and let us know
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He's right...considering how small the rear peep hole actually is, your eye will self-center though the middle of it without any conscious effort. All you gotta do is think "front sight..front sight...front sight" and center the "blurr" of the bullseye in the front sight's circle.
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Ok then. I won't worry so much about the rear sight. Oddly the bullseye edges are crisp and sharp. I also got some 67 lb paper to print targets with. Hopefully it will be thick enough to make nice clean holes without the tearing with the thin copy paper.
Taso
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Ok then. I won't worry so much about the rear sight. Oddly the bullseye edges are crisp and sharp. I also got some 67 lb paper to print targets with. Hopefully it will be thick enough to make nice clean holes without the tearing with the thin copy paper.
Taso
try taping the target flat to some sturdy carboard you will get clean holes. you see the front sight perfect on the bull that is all that matters. let us know how it works for you
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The ldc from TKO arrived Thursday night and I was able to get some pellet testing shots this evening. I mounted a BSA Tactical 6-24X44 scope with high rings and set it to 24 power and shot off my bench. Velocities are right around 541 fps with the Crosman Super Match pellets with the muzzle about ten feet from the chronograph.
The T200 shoots the H&N Sport wadcutters and the Crosman Super Match wadcutters the best. I think the Super Match pellets have a slight accuracy edge.
So far I'm real happy with the rifle. The bolt is a little stiff at the end of the forward closing stoke and rotating down. It seems it needs more effort to go forward enough to allow the bolt handle to be rotated down. The trigger blade feels weird. I think because it's too narrow. The trigger movement feels gritty and spongey. I will need to read up on how to adjust it. Hopefully I won't need to take the trigger apart but if I do I have stones for smoothing and moly or ultimox to lubricate.
I have attached pictures of the targets I shot. Beeman wadcutters, RWS Hobby and Diabolo Basic, H&N Sport and Crosman Super Match.
Thanks,
Taso
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Looking good Taso.
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Manual should have a description. There have been some slight changes over the years...and it's been in production for about 15 years now, which is a lot longer than nearly any other PCP I can think of.
These would help:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1261489459/S200+Trigger+Adjustment+Tutorial+by+Dan+Nelson (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1261489459/S200+Trigger+Adjustment+Tutorial+by+Dan+Nelson)
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spdxs40.htm (http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spdxs40.htm)
It's the first stage (the "take up") that seems to cause most of the roughness in thse rifles. It does get a little smoother over time, but for that to happen you'd have to put up with it. Likely could be detail stripped and smoothed. Just adjusting away the 1st stage (so it works as a single stage trigger) works.
WARNING...at least for outside use. There is no safety. Too light a trigger and no safety isn't a great combination out in the woods. So GO SLOW and bounce-test often.
Bolt's stiffness is mostly newness. If it's the o-ring on the bolt, perhaps a touch of silicon grease would help limber it up.
There is a spring loaded detent ball that supplys tension at lock down, and it could be too tight or just not worn a good smooth seat in the detent on the bolt. As you look down on the action from the top, the rearmost screw head (kind of wide) holds that spring and little steel ball...back it off 1/8 turn and see (but too little springtension and the bolt is going to want to jump up at the shot).
EDIT:
Trigger clamps to a rail so you can move it forward/back. It's plastic. Reported you can break it by over tightening the clamping screw. There are aftermarket metal replacements, but if you know ahead of time not to over clamp it, the plastic one wroks.
Bolt handle is also plastic, and also has aftermarket replacements.
Thought about that with my first one. Decided that I'd replace the trigger/bolt handle just as soon as it broke. That rifle was made in 2003, so evidently 13 years of use hasn't been enough to break the plastic parts, so I've never replaced them.
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The ldc from TKO arrived Thursday night and I was able to get some pellet testing shots this evening. I mounted a BSA Tactical 6-24X44 scope with high rings and set it to 24 power and shot off my bench. Velocities are right around 541 fps with the Crosman Super Match pellets with the muzzle about ten feet from the chronograph.
The T200 shoots the H&N Sport wadcutters and the Crosman Super Match wadcutters the best. I think the Super Match pellets have a slight accuracy edge.
So far I'm real happy with the rifle. The bolt is a little stiff at the end of the forward closing stoke and rotating down. It seems it needs more effort to go forward enough to allow the bolt handle to be rotated down. The trigger blade feels weird. I think because it's too narrow. The trigger movement feels gritty and spongey. I will need to read up on how to adjust it. Hopefully I won't need to take the trigger apart but if I do I have stones for smoothing and moly or ultimox to lubricate.
I have attached pictures of the targets I shot. Beeman wadcutters, RWS Hobby and Diabolo Basic, H&N Sport and Crosman Super Match.
Thanks,
Taso
did you shoot at ten yds at 24X power? or was it longer? you can easily adjust the velocity higher and shoot it 35 yd. did you try it with the aperature sites it came with. the velocity you shooting at you really don't need the LDC
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'Need"..I agree. But if you think high power PCP's with a shroud/LDC are quiet, really need to try one of these match speed PCPs with a well designed LDC. Comes as close to that fake-silencer sound used on TV as possible. Liked it so much, figured out a way to add one to a Challenger PCP and still keep the match sights.
Have had my AA 200T up and down in speed, settling on a setting that just needs to transfer port restriction adjusted. Cranked down, it's a 100 shot 5 foot pound rifle for very quiet work...turn out that screw 3 1/4 turns, and it's a 12 foot pound field rifle.
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mista meener,
Sorry, I did forget to clarify. I shot at 10 meters in my basement. I am leaning on not mounting the aperture sights unless I can figure out how to shoot the ones on my FWB 601. If I can't I will put the T200 sights up for sale as new, never mounted.
I do plan on either mounting a 1 or 2 power scope/sight or maybe the Millet red dot I bought recently. I hate being dependent on batteries though.
I only use the high power and bench to test rifle and pellet accuracy. Once I figure out which pellet works best I will introduce the Taso factor lol. I will then work on reproducing the bench results with lots of practice.
This gun will stay at the power it is at currently. I may get another one to set at higher power or pick up a BSA R10 if they break the $700 mark again. Or one of my B51 builds may suffice. Or something irresistible pops up in the classifieds. ;)
While the rifle is not loud, it does have a loud pop. My 853 and 601 do this too. I need to be super quiet due to my non shooting friendly neighbors.
Taso
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Does take some time to get use to "match" sights, but so long as you are shooting high-contrast, round bullseyes, that "almost" fill the front sight ring, can do a pretty good job of matchng a scope to about 20 yards.
MAtch sights absolutly sux in dim light, sux as sorting out the "fur" from the "tree bark", and sux at "kentucky windage" (or elevation)...but on well lighted round high contrast targets, can keep up with scopes at least out to 20 yards.
Trick is the light. My practice target stop faces WEST....so every afternoon it gets the full foece of the sun...almost too refective to look at for long, unless looking though the tiny apature of a match-type rear sight...which is likely what makes match sights aqlmost an equal option to a scope at short (20yard) ranges.
Yes...one fill...20 yards...100 shots:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/30a8b259-53b6-40e5-a860-c004e0f1752d.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/30a8b259-53b6-40e5-a860-c004e0f1752d.jpg.html)
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Ribbonstone,
Your 20 yard groups are better than my 10 yard groups! Thank you for the trigger information too. Actually you've always been a great help and a wealth of information. Thank you for that too!
I read the trigger setup info but I'll have to get the rifle apart to see what's going on visually.
Taso
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Actually, you can access all the trigger adjustments without talking anything apart...the trigger guard has those odd slots/holes that pretty much let you get to all of them. Just need to loosen the clamp on trigger so it an be slid back and forth to get a clear path to some of them.
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Does take some time to get use to "match" sights, but so long as you are shooting high-contrast, round bullseyes, that "almost" fill the front sight ring, can do a pretty good job of matchng a scope to about 20 yards.
MAtch sights absolutly sux in dim light, sux as sorting out the "fur" from the "tree bark", and sux at "kentucky windage" (or elevation)...but on well lighted round high contrast targets, can keep up with scopes at least out to 20 yards.
Trick is the light. My practice target stop faces WEST....so every afternoon it gets the full foece of the sun...almost too refective to look at for long, unless looking though the tiny apature of a match-type rear sight...which is likely what makes match sights aqlmost an equal option to a scope at short (20yard) ranges.
Yes...one fill...20 yards...100 shots:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/2009PCP/30a8b259-53b6-40e5-a860-c004e0f1752d.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/2009PCP/30a8b259-53b6-40e5-a860-c004e0f1752d.jpg.html)
match sites are made to do one thing like you said center a round bull in the front site. Ribby I have shot tiny groups with an FWB 300 and the 602 to over 30 yds using a 3 1/2 bull stuck on a white paper plate with a 4.0 size front site. did you do that with the T200
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There is a reason for the various size blacks of various the bullseye targets...and why they make front sight inserts of various diameters. Some combination will give you that little edge of white target paper in that front sight...if the edge is even and the sights adjusted, the pellet will head for the dead center of that bulseye.
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Hatsan AT 44 QE , very tuanable also in that price range .
X2 accurate and quiet out of the box
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Current thought on the front sight insert is to go UP in size, to give MORE space between the bull and the insert. Seems that for most people, who don't hold as steady as world class shooters, do better with more white visible around the bull.
This is especially true for the standing position. I was taught to select the front sight insert that will keep the bull completely visible in the aperture most if not all the time. If the aperture is so small that the bull goes out of the aperture often, it could lead to snatching/jerking. The term my coach used was "trust your hold" and "steady pull of the trigger."
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Taso, the problem with a red dot is the size of the dot compared to the size of the target.
The red dot that I have almost completely covers a standard 10m bull, at 10m. IOW, it is good for shooting soda cans and such, not small targets.
For standard target shooting, you want a circle to put the bull inside. I think they make some of the reflex sights with circular sights rather than a dot.
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I have issues with match sights. I am nearsighted with astigmatism. I've never used match sights till I received my CMP refurb 853 about a year ago. In the past I've always used post and notch type sights with no issues but I never shot for one hole groups.
While I can align everything inside the front sight when shooting at 10 meter bulls at 10 meters, I cannot center the outside of the front sight within the rear peep. I cannot see clearly all the way around the front sight. I see basically the profile of a football and it's positioned diagonally when I look through the rear peep.
I don't know if it's my astigmatism or the progressive lenses in my glasses. So either there is something wrong with my prescription or I'm doing something wrong.
Right now it's easier to align everything with a scope and thus more enjoyable. I am not giving up on the open sights so I'll have to find a remedy for my issue.
Thank you All for your help. :)
Taso
The progressive lens might be giving you problems.
I shoot with bifocal, and use my progressives off the range.
The problem that I have with progressives is that the prescription changes so much as you look out of different parts of the lens. So unless you setup to look through the SAME spot on the lens each time, your viewing image will be different.
Experiment with moving the rear sight further away or nearer to your eye.
You will find that at one particular distance, it will be easier to center the tube of the front sight in the rear iris. This is experimental, because the rear sight to eye distance that I use is likely different than what would work for you. And this is not cast in cement, as it may be different on another day. Gradually, you will narrow in on the rear sight to eye distance that works for YOU.
And as was mentioned, FOCUS on the front sight. Everything else will be blurry to some degree.
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If it's just target shooting I would recommend the Mrod in .177. You can always tune it to a lower fill pressure and usually are accurate with the right pellets. There heavier but are very quiet.
Very good suggestion
Best of luck Brother Man