GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: MRT949 on February 13, 2016, 10:16:08 AM
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Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting .
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?
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All of the above, Have a rifle for every occasion :)
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Remember: Power= Money
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Energy at target is good. A good satisfying thwack is what I need.
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All of my guns are 12-18 fpe. If I want more power, I just break out the .22 rimfires.
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Generally, but not always, it is an inverse proportion. As power increases in a spring gun at least, accuracy often (but not always) decreases. I know there are some nice powerhouses out there that are quite accurate.
I run my .177 guns between 12.75 and 14 FPE.
The .177 RWS48 was putting out over 16 FPE but it was all over the place until I dropped it down to 12 FPE and got it back to a one holler again.
A well placed shot on a squirrel that is wrecking my wife's stuff with any of the three guns does the job nicely.
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All of my guns are 12-18 fpe. If I want more power, I just break out the .22 rimfires.
Same here. I just installed a Vortek docile spring in my 34P PC. Should be around 12fpe. I haven't had a chance to chrono yet.
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I was ok with both my rifles at factory power, I put a Vortek kit in my 350, about the same power just smoother. I like power but has to be accurate.
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With a few of my airguns I wouldn't mind more power ( but I don't really have the skill to increase it, and would rather spend the money on ammo or new gun ) so I just learn to appreciate my guns for what they are. Plus my stock blue streak is all the power I really need so that helps.
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Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting .
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?
The .177 HW95 I bought last June shot 7.9 grain pellets at 880fps in factory twang mode so I REDUCED the power to shoot the same pellet at 850fps. At the lower power level the gun cocks easier, has a nicer shot cycle, is easier to shoot accurately, and is more friendly to the optics!
Funny thing is that the extra drop of a 820fps CPL vs a 900fps CPL at 50 yards using a 30 yard zero with my HW95 is less than 1"!
LOL......IF I could double my HW95 or R9 power from 12.5fpe to 25fpe it wouldn't add an extra 10 yards to my "effective range" under field conditions shooting those lead badminton birdies called pellets! Years ago I tuned my .177 R9 to shoot CPLs at 960fps using an oring sealed piston cap and I shot a few 30 yard groups. Then I re-tuned the gun to shoot my normal tune AT THAT TIME which was CPLs at 910fps and I shot a few more 30 yard groups. After the lead dust settled EVERY 910fps group was tighter than the 960fps groups! A couple decades ago when I did this little test I only had duplex reticled scopes and I found that if I tuned the R9 to shoot CPLs at 910fps and zero the gun at 30 yards I could hold "point blank" on a target from 16 yards to 30 yards. At both 10 yards and 50 yards I could aim with the tip of the lower duplex post on the target and then at the intermediate distances the hold was somewhere between the crosshair and tip of the lower post. I've been using mil dot reticled scopes for a while now so I don't need to use such a stiff tune anymore since I now have a lot more "aiming points" on the reticle. Here is the reticle of the Optisan Viper scope I'm currently using........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1602015/1433905229_234091869_ViperBoxHoldOver.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=73394)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Anywhoo....when new to airguns I wanted "MO POWER" and put up with harsh shooting jumpy springers for years........then I learned that "mo ain't necessarily bettah" and I've been preferring a softer tune in later years!
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Found that out shooting Hunters pistol silhouette . Didn't need all that 44 mag power .Went to .22Lr and air pistol to have as much fun if not more .You are shooting against your self .You can't eat trophies .
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Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting .
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?
Power is almost at the bottom of my list.
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I purchased a very cheap refurbished Ruger Black Hawk Elite. I installed a 12 lb docile spring, new seal, moly, heavy tar, etc. After it has settled down (think I used too much lube) it is way smoother and enjoyable to shoot than before. No twang, little recoil, and trigger is pretty good. My most shot break barrel with the XS-12 being close behind. I love it but IMO it is ugly as H-E-double hockey sticks and the balance is a little off being front heavy. I like it so much that I'm looking to purchase a Walther Terrus or HW 50s to be my go to paper/light critter class.
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The one gun I had that was not powerful enough for me was my HW30s. I found the delay between trigger pull and target strike annoying.
For me, the 10-14 fpe is about right.
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For me, the 10-14 fpe is about right.
With the exception of my 2 Hatsans all my other AG's fall in that range. And are perfect small game hunting weapons. The Hatsans have more power if I crave it, and shoot as well as the lower power guns. But more often than not, 10 to 12 FPE even is perfect on small game. I pump few more pumps if I need more power.
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The fascination with more power in a springer is a first indication of a newbie. I started there but eventually learned my enjoyment was greater with less power and more accuracy. When I went PCP I figured out that power meant pumping. I dialed my PCPs down to less than 12 fpe for higher shot count.
Oh and since most of my shooting is in a barn I need to limit my power to avoid damage to buildings.
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Long distance = power helps, heavy lead going 900-950 fps beats light lead at the same speed for wind drift and has a flatter trajectory...
20-30 yards ~20 fpe is nice... if there is any wind at all
close range heck even 5 fpe works on a clam day for paper...
it all depends on what you are trying to do...
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Here's a few words of wisdom from the powder burner side to which an airgunner can easily relate.
Too soon we grow old, too late we get smart. Velocity increases at the muzzle are a very poor substitute for stalking within sure killing range and carefully picking your shots. Focusing on shot placement and using bullets well suited for a particular species means so very, very much more. It means longer equipment life, more fun at the range, more success in the field, and a more pleasant shooting experience across the board.
That "little" 24 sure is easier all-round than my RX1.
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Here's a few words of wisdom from the powder burner side to which an airgunner can easily relate.
Too soon we grow old, too late we get smart. Velocity increases at the muzzle are a very poor substitute for stalking within sure killing range and carefully picking your shots. Focusing on shot placement and using bullets well suited for a particular species means so very, very much more. It means longer equipment life, more fun at the range, more success in the field, and a more pleasant shooting experience across the board.
That "little" 24 sure is easier all-round than my RX1.
Sorry but to me that is Hogwash of a recreational hunter on the powder burner side and if a springer/np because of the limits of the power plant the more fpe past about 20 fpe...
50 fpe will give that sure shot at 30-50 yards in less than perfect conditions while 12 fpe in those same conditions you have to be within 15 or so...
It does not matter your SKILL STALKING if you are subsistence hunting it is about getting the job done...
So a poor substitute heck NO... in certain environments and certain prey that fpe/longer range is a big BLESSING...
Have you ever tried to stalk Prong horn or even Big horn (PB): (Air) or Himalayan Snowcock or even Chukar in open rocky areas...
Me I tend to think of hunting as a way to eat and did for years wander the Sierras and Nevada desert with a 17fpe air rifle and many times I wished for something that had the power of my .25 Mrod...
Like I said it depends on what you are trying to accomplish and your perspective... Jmho...
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Here's a few words of wisdom from the powder burner side to which an airgunner can easily relate.
Too soon we grow old, too late we get smart. Velocity increases at the muzzle are a very poor substitute for stalking within sure killing range and carefully picking your shots. Focusing on shot placement and using bullets well suited for a particular species means so very, very much more. It means longer equipment life, more fun at the range, more success in the field, and a more pleasant shooting experience across the board.
That "little" 24 sure is easier all-round than my RX1.
Sorry but to me that is Hogwash of a recreational hunter on the powder burner side and if a springer/np because of the limits of the power plant the more fpe past about 20 fpe...
50 fpe will give that sure shot at 30-50 yards in less than perfect conditions while 12 fpe in those same conditions you have to be within 15 or so...
It does not matter your SKILL STALKING if you are subsistence hunting it is about getting the job done...
So a poor substitute heck NO... in certain environments and certain prey that fpe/longer range is a big BLESSING...
Have you ever tried to stalk Prong horn or even Big horn (PB): (Air) or Himalayan Snowcock or even Chukar in open rocky areas...
Me I tend to think of hunting as a way to eat and did for years wander the Sierras and Nevada desert with a 17fpe air rifle and many times I wished for something that had the power of my .25 Mrod...
Like I said it depends on what you are trying to accomplish and your perspective... Jmho...
you hunted for survival using an airgun?? were there no seasons for game? you could have only shot very small game and to live 3-4 a day. and then you talk about hogwash
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I purchased a very cheap refurbished Ruger Black Hawk Elite. I installed a 12 lb docile spring, new seal, moly, heavy tar, etc. After it has settled down (think I used too much lube) it is way smoother and enjoyable to shoot than before. No twang, little recoil, and trigger is pretty good. My most shot break barrel with the XS-12 being close behind. I love it but IMO it is ugly as H-E-double hockey sticks and the balance is a little off being front heavy. I like it so much that I'm looking to purchase a Walther Terrus or HW 50s to be my go to paper/light critter class.
Chop the barrel 4 or 5 inches and it'll be just like a d34p pro compact.
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I purchased a very cheap refurbished Ruger Black Hawk Elite. I installed a 12 lb docile spring, new seal, moly, heavy tar, etc. After it has settled down (think I used too much lube) it is way smoother and enjoyable to shoot than before. No twang, little recoil, and trigger is pretty good. My most shot break barrel with the XS-12 being close behind. I love it but IMO it is ugly as H-E-double hockey sticks and the balance is a little off being front heavy. I like it so much that I'm looking to purchase a Walther Terrus or HW 50s to be my go to paper/light critter class.
Chop the barrel 4 or 5 inches and it'll be just like a d34p pro compact.
That is a very good idea but I have never re crowned a barrel. It is a darn good shooter and a shorter barrel might be just the ticket. So you are thinking about a 12" length? It cocks pretty easy now so that shouldn't be a problem either.
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I'd take a compact fishing pole. Maybe one of those 3 foot long kids models with the zebco 33, and find some bugs for bait. If you can find a pond, lake, or deep stream, more than likely there's a few hungry fish in there.
Nevada desert might not be the best place for fishing though. I don't know.
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I purchased a very cheap refurbished Ruger Black Hawk Elite. I installed a 12 lb docile spring, new seal, moly, heavy tar, etc. After it has settled down (think I used too much lube) it is way smoother and enjoyable to shoot than before. No twang, little recoil, and trigger is pretty good. My most shot break barrel with the XS-12 being close behind. I love it but IMO it is ugly as H-E-double hockey sticks and the balance is a little off being front heavy. I like it so much that I'm looking to purchase a Walther Terrus or HW 50s to be my go to paper/light critter class.
Chop the barrel 4 or 5 inches and it'll be just like a d34p pro compact.
That is a very good idea but I have never re crowned a barrel. It is a darn good shooter and a shorter barrel might be just the ticket. So you are thinking about a 12" length? It cocks pretty easy now so that shouldn't be a problem either.
The part that counts, around the bore, isn't that difficult. And if that handle on the end can be taken off and put over where you cut, then it would hide any cosmetic flaws.
I've read that on a springer, you won't lose any velocity down to 9". But it will probably be a little louder.
Might want to push a pellet through it to see if the barrel is choked first. If it is, and you cut the choke off, it might not shoot as good.
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Thanks for the tip. Just looked up the pro compact and the barrel is listed at 15.75 and the Black Hawk is 19, so 4 to 5 is good.
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Not hogwash, it was back in the early 1980s and it was to stretch my supplies not my only means of eating... and yes it was small game of course... I had some healing to do and the time alone was precious to me... I would work most of winter to be able to go and spend the spring summer and fall out... and yes at times I would have to go to town to get another 50-60 pounds of rice beans vitamins shoes treats etc. etc.
I called hogwash on the theory/idea of skill trumping the tool... not the person... you on the other hand without knowing me have done differently...
it was not just hunting that helped stretch my supplies also was taught much about the desert by a Pauite friend and his grandfather when I was young.
I never claimed that was my only means and you can check my past post for this also...
all that is besides the point though and you can think what you want...
If you want to sharpen your skills yep then work at sneaking up close nothing wrong with that... But from a different goal in mind you want the best tool you can get...
I wanted to wander and see and hear and feel... a Benji pumper was not questioned when a PB would have been... that was the reason for limiting myself... and those limits did inform my perspective...
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Here's a few words of wisdom from the powder burner side to which an airgunner can easily relate.
Too soon we grow old, too late we get smart. Velocity increases at the muzzle are a very poor substitute for stalking within sure killing range and carefully picking your shots. Focusing on shot placement and using bullets well suited for a particular species means so very, very much more. It means longer equipment life, more fun at the range, more success in the field, and a more pleasant shooting experience across the board.
That "little" 24 sure is easier all-round than my RX1.
Kirby and I are on opposite sides of this. But I understand his perspective. And he is not full of hogwash. Me, I'm with you. Stalk, get close. I have honed those skills over years of bow hunting and perfected it more with AG's. BUT, the big but..... I have terrain that permits this. I can rarely even see game over 40 yards away, as there is too much cover.
Where you and I differ is the poor substitute part. If you don't have the terrain to allow getting close ( desert, all open fields, etc) then you need to learn to shoot further, and need the power to back it up.
With the cover I have, and the skills I have developed I have killed a bobcat at 20 yards and a coyote at 18 yards with a 20 FPE AG. And countless raccoon's at 15 yards and less with 12 to 14 FPE. All with 1 perfect brain shot. With both .177 and with .22. Never mind over 4 dozen nutters a year with ag's from 7 FPE to 12 FPE. From a few feet away, to 40 yards away.
So it depends on your terrain, your particualar skill set, and what your passion in shooting is. At least that's my humble opinion.
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I started on a pumpmaster then I wanted more power so I thought it was a great idea so I bought a Crosman phantom hoping to be like the guys with pcps on YouTube then I found out that cheap springers were nothing like pcps so I bought a 1322 for a back up gun and a hatsan striker for a primary gun but the 1322 ended up being my primary gun all last summer. Now I got a disco and love it way more than a springer. For me it's accuracy first then durability then power and after that how the gun looks.
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Stonykill sums it up pretty well. Having grown up hunting Arkansas I've been in places so dense you could barely move through it and taken deer across bean fields at great distances. From delta flatland to Ozark slopes. It all depends on what skills you have and what your interest is. Short range, long range, high or low power. We can enjoy it all in one way or another. That's what makes it a great hobby.
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Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting .
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?
I want it all! I have the low end FPE covered and my upper end is maxed at a little over 100 fpe. I can see a 200ish fpe gun and a 500+ FPE airgun down the road.
Some guns take well to power mods and some don't.
I laugh at .22 rimfires now. ;D
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The fascination with more power in a springer is a first indication of a newbie. I started there but eventually learned my enjoyment was greater with less power and more accuracy. When I went PCP I figured out that power meant pumping. I dialed my PCPs down to less than 12 fpe for higher shot count.
Oh and since most of my shooting is in a barn I need to limit my power to avoid damage to buildings.
I admit I bought the hatsan 125 because it was the closest i could get to PCP energy with out the added cost of pumps , I blame the 125 for my PCP adiction !
also have my Air Force Escape dialed down to magnum springer velocities with the .22 air arms 16 - 18 gr domes shoots sweet and plenty of power and decent shot count , and have another tank set full power for the .25 barrel and the heavy stuff :)
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Thanks for the tip. Just looked up the pro compact and the barrel is listed at 15.75 and the Black Hawk is 19, so 4 to 5 is good.
That's only a 3.25" difference, maybe 4-5" is too much? I'd think the energy loss would be pretty drastic at that point, but as a newbie I could be way off.
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Thanks for the tip. Just looked up the pro compact and the barrel is listed at 15.75 and the Black Hawk is 19, so 4 to 5 is good.
That's only a 3.25" difference, maybe 4-5" is too much? I'd think the energy loss would be pretty drastic at that point, but as a newbie I could be way off.
From what I have read, barrel length doesn't affect a springers power like a multipump or pcp. I read that it might increase accuracy because pellet stays in the barrel less time and less hold sensitivity.
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Where you and I differ is the poor substitute part. If you don't have the terrain to allow getting close ( desert, all open fields, etc) then you need to learn to shoot further, and need the power to back it up.
This is not me disagreeing with you. I have hunted mountains in the east, woodlands in the eastern tidewater, Oklahoma prarie, San Angelo, El Paso and Arizona desert.
The truth is if you don't have terrain that allows getting close, you are not required to learn how to shoot farther. Learning to hide better, read game trails better, and use more patience will do as well. That way you can use the same rifle anywhere.
That is my humble opinion, but I like your's as well.
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Where you and I differ is the poor substitute part. If you don't have the terrain to allow getting close ( desert, all open fields, etc) then you need to learn to shoot further, and need the power to back it up.
This is not me disagreeing with you. I have hunted mountains in the east, woodlands in the eastern tidewater, Oklahoma prarie, San Angelo, El Paso and Arizona desert.
The truth is if you don't have terrain that allows getting close, you are not required to learn how to shoot farther. Learning to hide better, read game trails better, and use more patience will do as well. That way you can use the same rifle anywhere.
That is my humble opinion, but I like your's as well.
Actually, now that you said it, I agree. I don't even think about it anymore as it is 2nd nature, but sure, part of how I get close is reading sign. Seeing game trails, droppings, partially eaten food, etc.
I agree.
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Required no, Big advantage yes...
In the desert reading game trails is a bit different all the Ys and such tend to point towards water..... ;)
Skill helps but having range helps a lot and I mean a lot... in some areas game is sparse and the game is very wary... game closer to towns well I have quail in my back yard spring and summer...
For you to get within 10 -15 yard there are going to be many missed opportunities that with a 30-50 yard range would have been dinner in the bag...
If a recreational hunter 12 fpe sure see how good you are and take 45 min to get close to a Chukar if you can(and good luck even if skilled in the rocky open areas they tend to like)...
But I still would rather have the range and the skill and will have more food with less effort... and fewer failed stalks...
I guess I have issue with it sounding like it being suggested having more fpe is only because a lack of skill and I much disagree with the statement...
I can read sign very very well but in the desert it is better to know where the game will be at a given time of the day and a given time of the year...
it is about how long ago did it rain and knowing where the water is likely to still be and which pools will be dry...
So in the places hunted why can you not use the same 50fpe air rifle..?
If just the hunt is the goal fine do it however... but it was a means to an end for me and the exploration not recreational hunting was my goal...
so please quit insinuating that recognizing that fpe does matter at times is only a lack of skill...
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When I buy a gun I do my homework and I chose the one that fils my expectations. I use my NP2 for shooting and soon to be hunting at 25-50 yards. If I want to shoot something at longer distance, is not an airgun I am going to use. To kill a hare you need only 5 - 6 fpe. The English do this all the time using 11-12 fpe (at the muzzle) airguns. Just check YouTube and you'll see nice hunting videos at more than 40 m / 45 yards with 11 fpe airguns.
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When I buy a gun I do my homework and I chose the one that fils my expectations. I use my NP2 for shooting and soon to be hunting at 25-50 yards. If I want to shoot something at longer distance, is not an airgun I am going to use. To kill a hare you need only 5 - 6 fpe. The English do this all the time using 11-12 fpe (at the muzzle) airguns. Just check YouTube and you'll see nice hunting videos at more than 40 m / 45 yards with 11 fpe airguns.
now throw in a good wind and that distance shrinks radically part of the story does not make a whole truth...
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When I buy a gun I do my homework and I chose the one that fils my expectations. I use my NP2 for shooting and soon to be hunting at 25-50 yards. If I want to shoot something at longer distance, is not an airgun I am going to use. To kill a hare you need only 5 - 6 fpe. The English do this all the time using 11-12 fpe (at the muzzle) airguns. Just check YouTube and you'll see nice hunting videos at more than 40 m / 45 yards with 11 fpe airguns.
now throw in a good wind and that distance shrinks radically part of the story does not make a whole truth...
A good wind has a huge effect even on a Rimfire or a Centerfire carabine. So what's the story here ? The smart shooter always makes his shot when the wind/shooting conditions/distance are right. From my experience more isn't always good when we are talking about guns and precision.
P.S. Yeah, there are some who say even 1" matter, but hey, we have to settle it if it's 1" wider or longer. 8)
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It means at 50 fpe I can judge drift with much more certainty than when shooting with 12 fpe handle worse conditions...
the difference between a 5 mph and 7 mph wind is hard to judge, with ~12 fpe (14.3g @625) @(edit* @40 yards) the difference in aim point between the two is almost an inch...
with ~50 fpe (25.4g @ 950fps) (edit* @ 40 yards) that difference is only a third of an inch...
so the kill zone on most small game is about .5" which does not have to have perfect conditions..?
so guys what have you hunted what conditions the only specifics by a low fpe hunter I have seen are Toms(stonykill)
There are things being thrown out most are general and not specific that's the story...
the smart shooter... well I did hunt with ~ 17 fpe and if you check my past post you will see I kept most of my shots within 20-30 yards less if wind... but there is better ammo now days than the old green tin Benji .22...
P.S. what??
I am not trying to be a Richard Cranium but guys I do know a decent bit of which I speak...
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From my experience more isn't always good when we are talking about guns and precision.
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once again very general...
I do somewhat agree for certain cases like when I had my T.C. Contender carbine, a buddy of mine helped come up with a 125g spitzer for its 30/30 barrel that outperformed any other round...
but more is not always bad case in point my .25 Mrod (50 fpe) and .177 BSA Buc(20+fpe)... more can do very well...
Not once have I said that 12 fpe hunting is not possible what I have said is that with those same skills (like when not to take the shot) 50 fpe is one heck of a lot more useful in real hunting in many conditions and can be used in most of the same situations as the 12 fpe rifle... and that is reality...
is 50 fpe nessasary in Toms hunting obviously not
but is 50 fpe unusable in Toms hunting obviously not...
I hear the argument that it is just as dead with 12fpe and 50 is overkill in many threads: well the below pic is Mom in early 1962 just preggers with me in the big bend forest of East Texas (Etoile to be exact) and those squirrels where taken the same way many still do : with a .22 rimfire... But hey what do those folk know... ::)
Me when I say that 50 fpe is much more useful that is because it is... and it has zip to do with lack of skill... I really do not understand why it is that so many take it personally and start throwing out stuff that is very general and to me questionable?
off topic a touch...
Tom I hope I get just a bit lucky and somehow get a bit rich... cause I think you are a kindred spirit and would love to show you some of my old stompin grounds such as the Jarbidge, Ruby, Desolation an Humboldt wilderness areas... places that in the 70s and 80s it was easy to feel the time/spirit of the Paiute and Shoshone because you could go months without seeing any one... but are now more traveled in a more crowded world by those seeking to get away for a while...
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My answer is No. I usually grab the AG needed for the game I am after. Most of my shooting is paper, cans, or assorted targets and FT anyway.
I own and hunted with a Lyman Deerstalker .54 cal Flintlock for a bit. I bought that muzzleloader in my early 20's to try on deer as I know nothing at the time on black powder and to help hone my 10m shooting skills. Long and short, all the reading, shooting and practicing taught me quite a bit on using what would be considered old but very powerful technology. As a result, there are many parallels with AG power and BP power. Some of you have already alluded to this, but when using a AG you have to basically dump your basic modern firearms approach as that was what helped me get the hang of my flintlock. I was never going to make that flintlock into something it wasn't. In a sense, I sometimes see that with AG's, especially springers. I could charge the Lyman with 110-120 grains of 2FF and not only did it not group very well (3 inch groups at 80 yards) It about ripped my shoulder off. I dropped it to 80 grains and I got nice clover leafs at 80 yards. That was with round balls and minnie's 8). Oh, and it was much fun to shot at that power level.
I loaned the Lyman to my older brother as he stills hunts pretty religiously and I taught him all I knew and gave him my Sam Fadala books to read too. Many whitetails have fallen at his hands with the Lyman.
Anyway, I know this is a AG forum, but I always smile when a springer owner reduces their FPS by a few with a Vortek kits and then say how much more pleasant to shoot and ACCURATE their rifle has become. Something to meditate on IMO.
BZ
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K.O., the question was if after you buy a gun, you want to mod it to be more powerful or not. My answer was No. Buying a 20 fpe and modding it to 35 fpe is a nonsense. Buy a 35 fpe from the beginning, you'll save some money. I am not arguing about buying a 50 fpe vs a 12 fpe, because it's not the question was asked. I only said that not every time power means accuracy. In my RAR the CCI Standard is more accurate than the CCI Stinger, even though one has a 1070 fps and the other is 1630 fps, so the later has more fpe. Same is for the AG, up to a certain point.
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Itso the kill zone on most small game is about .5" which does not have to have perfect conditions..?
so guys what have you hunted wh means at 50 fpe I can judge drift with much more certainty than when shooting with 12 fpe handle worse conditions...
the difference between a 5 mph and 7 mph wind is hard to judge, with ~12 fpe (14.3g @625) @ the difference in aim point between the two is almost an inch...
with ~50 fpe (25.4g @ 950fps) that difference is only a third of an inch...
at conditions the only specifics by a low fpe hunter I have seen are Toms(stonykill)
There are things being thrown out most are general and not specific that's the story...
the smart shooter... well I did hunt with ~ 17 fpe and if you check my past post you will see I kept most of my shots within 20-30 yards less if wind... but there is better ammo now days than the old green tin Benji .22...
P.S. what??
Not once have I said that 12 fpe hunting is not possible what I have said is that with those same skills (like when not to take the shot) 50 fpe is one heck of a lot more useful in real hunting in many conditions and can be used in most of the same situations as the 12 fpe rifle... and that is reality...
is 50 fpe nessasary in Toms hunting obviously not
but is 50 fpe unusable in Toms hunting obviously not...
I hear the argument that it is just as dead with 12fpe and 50 is overkill in many threads: well the below pic is Mom in early 1962 just preggers with me in the big bend forest of East Texas (Etoile to be exact) and those squirrels where taken the same way many still do : with a .22 rimfire... But hey what do those folk know... ::)
off topic a touch...
Tom I hope I get just a bit lucky and somehow get a bit rich... cause I think you are a kindred spirit and would love to show you some of my old stompin grounds such as the Jarbidge, Ruby, Desolation an Humboldt wilderness areas... places that in the 70s and 80s it was easy to feel the time/spirit of the Paiute and Shoshone because you could go months without seeing any one... but are now more traveled in a more crowded world by those seeking to get away for a while...
long before I got back into air guns, I hunted nutters with a 22wmr. Because that gun is just a tack driver. Many use a shotgun to nutter hunt. Just to help keep the honest perspective here.
There has been a lot of generalazation here. I try to be specific, you are better at being specific and making your point. This is making this thread interesting.
Heck, I'd like to somehow become wealthy as well. Do some hunting with ag's together on both sides of the country. I'm positive I would learn from you, and hopefully you from me.
I wonder if...... part of the reason you and I understand these things is we are into low dollar weapons and modding them, and s such we don't really feel the pull to go out and buy some expensive weapon, but work with what we have, to make it better than it was. Which ultimately means a lot of R&D and field time testing our work.
Interesting thread
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Some examples of low power airgun pesting/hunting. Mostly open sights.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104237.msg988953#msg988953 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104237.msg988953#msg988953)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104466.msg988949#msg988949 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104466.msg988949#msg988949)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104384.msg987913#msg987913 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104384.msg987913#msg987913)
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I guess I have issue with it sounding like it being suggested having more fpe is only because a lack of skill and I much disagree with the statement...
I don't know to whom you are responding. I did not see the post in this thread which implied that.
I can read sign very very well but in the desert it is better to know where the game will be at a given time of the day and a given time of the year...
Native Americans have been killing all manner of game at distances measured in feet over the entire continent for many thousands of years. They do this by understanding things most of us never needed to understand because of the tools we bring to the game. Neandertal hunted with atlatl's and spears and apparently did not have archery technology.
So in the places hunted why can you not use the same 50fpe air rifle..?
There is no reason that you can't and again, perhaps you will cite the offending post?
so please quit insinuating that recognizing that fpe does matter at times is only a lack of skill...
The offending post?
It is simply practical to bring the best tool you can to the hunt. I don't think anyone here has suggested that it is a lack of skill to hunt with any air rifle. On the other hand there is no doubt that it is more exacting to take a ground hog, or similar middle sized game with a 12 FPE rifle than with a 50 FPE rifle. What is not implied and what I have not seen implied here is that the 50 FPE shooter is somehow less skilled than they hunter who goes afield with a 12 FPE springer.
The obverse is also true. It is much easier to achieve hunting accuracy with a good PCP rifle than it is with a good spring rifle. That means that effective range is generally increased with a good PCP rifle, in the hands of a good marksman, over the effective range of a spring rifle in the same hands. That is pretty much indisputable at this point. Again I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the choice of rifle implies something about the knowledge / skill of the hunter.
I personally taken white tails at distances measured in feet with an old recurve bow back in the 60's. That does not stop me from taking out a .270 and busting them at 200 yards. I think both cases are completely legit, but I do believe that the hunter who has never learned to take a deer by ambush hunting at ten feet has missed one of the great satisfactions of life. You have to do it to prove yourself capable.
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K.O., the question was if after you buy a gun, you want to mod it to be more powerful or not. My answer was No. Buying a 20 fpe and modding it to 35 fpe is a nonsense. Buy a 35 fpe from the beginning, you'll save some money. I am not arguing about buying a 50 fpe vs a 12 fpe, because it's not the question was asked. I only said that not every time power means accuracy. In my RAR the CCI Standard is more accurate than the CCI Stinger, even though one has a 1070 fps and the other is 1630 fps, so the later has more fpe. Same is for the AG, up to a certain point.
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Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting .
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?
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So well no it is not to see things explode but yes I want more power than factory guns... and I do not do springers/nps because of it...they have probs as is... ;)
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Buying a 20 fpe and modding it to 35 fpe is a nonsense. Buy a 35 fpe from the beginning, you'll save some money.
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sorry wrong if you know what you are doing and are handy with tools...and the only pumper (which is my path) that has 50 fpe is $1200 and a is a high Quality custom limited run patterned after the one of a kind by Sensei Bob Sterne...
I can build a low budget version out of mainly Crosman parts that originally had trouble pushing 7.9g .177 to 650 fps... I just need to add an external tank and gage to my MK1322 build... as an ACP(air conserving pumper) it would take a lot of pumps to fill but after a 40-50fpe(.25) shot only15-25 pumps to recharge... price about $150-$200 dollars.... as it is(no ext tank) that build runs with a steroid Benji pumper for less and has some advantages that the Benji does not...
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I only said that not every time power means accuracy.
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Of course, to use that fpe you have to know what you are doing... and that includes how you are getting that fpe...But fpe used right is more accurate and that is simple physics... especially at 50-60-100 fpe and below...
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In my RAR the CCI Standard is more accurate than the CCI Stinger, even though one has a 1070 fps and the other is 1630 fps, so the later has more fpe. Same is for the AG, up to a certain point.
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I understand a list of possible and likely reasons why and can list them... ;) learning them yourself if you do not know why might be usefull to you...
One of the minor compared to other reasons could be that nice hammer forged free floated barrel has a harmonics prob with the stingers... ;)
The other probs are with how that greater fpe is being accomplished...
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??? Yall lost me.
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It depends on the gun, and it's intended purpose. For example, I want to buy a 2400kt. If all I ever use it for is plinkin cans and paper, and maybe dispatching some locust and the occasional rat, then I shouldn't need any extra power. But if I decide to use it on more wary game, then yeah I'd like to beef it up a bit.
I chose the 2400 for things it has to offer, excluding high power. If there were another gun with the same characteristics at a similar price with more power, I most likely would choose it.
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Anyway, I know this is a AG forum, but I always smile when a springer owner reduces their FPS by a few with a Vortek kits and then say how much more pleasant to shoot and ACCURATE their rifle has become. Something to meditate on IMO.
Please explain.
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When I buy a gun I do my homework and I chose the one that fils my expectations. I use my NP2 for shooting and soon to be hunting at 25-50 yards. If I want to shoot something at longer distance, is not an airgun I am going to use. To kill a hare you need only 5 - 6 fpe. The English do this all the time using 11-12 fpe (at the muzzle) airguns. Just check YouTube and you'll see nice hunting videos at more than 40 m / 45 yards with 11 fpe airguns.
now throw in a good wind and that distance shrinks radically part of the story does not make a whole truth...
It's kinda interesting to me that at the 2014 National field target match in Heflin, AL the match high score knocking down 110 out of 120 targets was done by a shooter in the <12fpe WFTF class. That was the usual 2 day match where 60 targets were shot each day and the targets ranged from 10 yards to 55 yards with killzones from 3/8" dia to perhaps 1 1/2" (not sure what the 55 yard killzones were). The first day was windy with 30 mph gusts and the shots were taken up hill, down hill, across revines, down paths cut into the woods, some forced kneeling and standing shots.....yet a shooter shooting "Nerf Gun power" still knocked down about 92% of the targets shot at!!
Anywhoo....I do know that even a 12fpe shooter has more than enough energy to take humanely drop a nutter at 50 yards with a proper hit. Regardless of the power of an airarm the limiting factor is that lead badminton birdie called PELLET that likes to sail in the wind, however, evidently........there are those who have learned the art of taming wind drift unlike myself! At the 2010 National field target match I attended the first day was windy with gusts like at Heflin and I was squadded with a HFTF class <12fpe springer shooter who used to post as "Johnny Piston" and I watched in awe as he was "cheating the wind" that first day. He would study the motion of the leaves on the tree, get into a sitting position, hold off into the wind, squeeze the trigger of his TX200SR, and I'd watch the target fall as the wind blew the .177 cal pellet through the killzone!
Anywhoo.......if I were to do most of my hunting at 50+ yards I wouldn't be using my .177 R9 or HW95........I'd either "bite the pellet" and put up with the expense and hassles of a .22 cal PCP, or most likely.....use a nice Kimber bolt action rimfire with RWS sub sonic ammo. LOL....the Kimber wouldn't cost much more than a good PCP once all the PCP "life support equipment" is bought! My brother recently ordered a .177 Maurauder for squirrel hunting and the gun with pump and adapter cost him about $750! LOL....he has taken over a thousand grey and fox squirrels with his .177 R9 over the years but he still felt the need for more!
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OK, this has been an interesting thread but I had to ask myself "Can you repeat the question again?"
:o
Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting .
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?
To me guns are tools. When you have a specific task, find the right tool to get the job done efficiently. But the flip-side is that guns are a heck of a lot of fun too. No right or wrong answer here as long as we are (1) SAFE, (2) RESPECTFUL, and (3) ACT AS GOOD AMBASSADORS OF THE SPORT WE LOVE.
My personal air rifles include a < 12 fpe RWS 34 and a > 30fpe Hatsan 135 so I understand and appreciate each end of spectrum!
;)