This Is What Can Happen.....

[rsterne]

I don't see a sheared screw in the Disco valve, only the exhaust port.... Yes, he said the front of the valve went into his leg, because he thinks it came out the front of the tube, not the back is my guess.... It looks like the piece of his pants has an imprint of the valve stem in the center of it.... There is no valve in a HiPac, it simply seals against the CO2 seal in the front of a 22XX valve.... A Disco valve doesn't have any such seal.... I assume by "4 of them stacked up" they mean HiPac extensions....

Bob

[Gippeto]

No way that valve came out the front of the tube...simply NOT possible. If anyone thinks it is possible, please explain where the force is coming from.

Valve departed to the rear.

Far as I'm concerned, things don't add up...thinking there's some details missing.

Bob has a plausible explanation IMO. After they got back from hospital, grip frame is off the tube...doubt they finish dis-assembly after getting back.

Al

[rsterne]

Al, I still have some serious questions.... There are no O-rings on the valve, just meat in the grooves.... That leads me to believe they cobbled up some kind of a seal between the front of the Disco valve and the HiPac.... During disassembly something happened to allow the valve to move back and break that seal.... Valve departed out the back.... That all kind of makes sense (even though the valve can't blow out the back, right?)....

However, what happened to the HiPac.... How did it fail at the threads?.... You tested one to 5K, IIRC.... Makes NO sense to me....

Bob

[miksatx]

A disco valve with orings will seal in the tube and pressure up not a problem. I can't understand why one would cobble up sealing with Teflon tape. What I can't figure out is why in the world he didn't degass the dang thing before he started working on it.

[rsterne]

Let me try this again....

If the Disco valve had O-rings on it (I see no evidence of that) then it needed THREE screws holding it (and I certainly see no holes in the sides of the tube for those)....

If the Disco valve did NOT have O-rings on it, then it must have had a cobbled up seal to the HiPac.... One screw would be no worse than a 22XX valve used the same way.... and most feel that is safe, including the manufacturer of the HiPac.... It could be argued that taking the back of the gun apart while the HiPac was under pressure was unwise at best....

The HiPac shearing off at the threads would appear to be a separate issue from the valve blowing out the back of the tube....

Bob

[Gippeto]

Let me try this again....

If the Disco valve had O-rings on it (I see no evidence of that) then it needed THREE screws holding it (and I certainly see no holes in the sides of the tube for those)....

Agreed 100% Also important to note that the disco valve is intended to seal to the tube...it likely has a closer tolerance than the 22xx valve to avoid extruding the o-ring. Would severely alter ability for pressure to bleed by the valve.

If the Disco valve did NOT have O-rings on it, then it must have had a cobbled up seal to the HiPac.... One screw would be no worse than a 22XX valve used the same way.... and most feel that is safe, including the manufacturer of the HiPac.... It could be argued that taking the back of the gun apart while the HiPac was under pressure was unwise at best....

The information to determine this is missing. Trip through the tube under pressure and then a leg could maybe strip o-rings...just don't know.

The HiPac shearing off at the threads would appear to be a separate issue from the valve blowing out the back of the tube....

I think so. Again...missing information. These fellows just went through what I'm certain was a fairly intense experience...maybe when they calm down some and figure out what all happened they'll share.

Bob

I did test a hipac to 5000psi 3 times...3 hours each test...I found no signs of yield. Used laboratory dead weight equipment.

Al

[Gertrude]

If you go to the Youtube link directly and read the description of the event, they say that the valve went the opposite direction of the Hipac. see below, copied directly from the youtube description...

quote-
"The gun was modified for HPA using HiPacs setup and a Discovery rifle air gun valve. Randy started taking it apart, still having 2000 psi in it. He got the barrel bands off it after taking apart the breach, and then the stock screws. Thats when it blew! After examining the wreckage, (see video) the HiPacs blew at the threads where they screw into the gun - resulting in the valve shooting south into Randy and the HiPacs shooting north into the ceiling.

 It was the HiPacs that failed first, not the valve we believe. If the valve blew out by itself, we think the valve would have just blown out by itself. But since the HiPacs blew - they both went separate directions from the epicenter of the blast.

 We believe the two barrel bands and the lower stock were keeping together the HiPacs, when they were removed, thats when it went bad..."
end quote



one other thing I noticed that seems odd to me is in the pics/video where the guy is laying on the floor with the massive hole in his leg is there does not seem to be much blood on his pants or his underwear where the paramedics appear to have torn/cut the underwear to expose the wound.
 I'm not trying to suggest this event did not happen.
all I'm saying is for a hole that size, in one of the "Meaty-ist" parts of the body, I would expect to see a lot more blood soaked clothing.
just seems odd to me.

[dv8eod]

I may be off-base here, but I kind of want to throw a flag on the play.
 Not taking into consideration any of the mechanical failures, the wounds themselves didn't seem right to me. Four minutes the battery was dead? Wouldn't it be his friends first and only concern to get him to the hospital? He put in a new battery and filmed a non-bleeding entry wound (the valve was under the skin at the back of his thigh so it wouldn't be able to stop the flow, nor did any blood leak out when he moved the entry wound) and the paramedics were on hand in that short a time? I didn't notice any discoloration where blood might have been wiped off the surrounding skin. I had to wonder about the bandaging, also. Did he not go to the hospital? He shouldn't have been wiping off the blood running down his leg if he had. I didn't notice any extensive bruising between the bandages that would have occurred had something passed through his leg. And the femoral artery is on the inside of the thigh. The bandages suggests it went through the outside of his thigh.
I'm basing all this on the many blunt force puncture wounds I've had the displeasure to experience in my life.
 I am NOT saying it didn't happen, just that some things didn't seem right to me.
If it was staged to discredit the Hipac, it was pretty elaborate. When I get a better internet connection I'll watch it again.

[Gertrude]

 in the description on the youtube, he say there was 3 different camera's used  ?

[dv8eod]

When I saw the piece of cloth with what looked like the valve stem imprint, I thought ok it exited the tube and hit his leg. Then later he said the other end was under the skin on the back side. That would mean that the valve rotated 180° end over end inside his leg before coming to a rest where it did. He felt like filming some more after something like that? Also, the cloth should have been ripped and separated where the stem hit, not cut out like a plug. Again, I could be wrong.

[Gerard]

Things like blue jean cotton behave differently when impacted at high velocity by a metal object than they might when one falls, for example, on a sharp branch on a hike. A round patch of cloth cutting free when impacted by the valve makes perfect sense to me.

Watched the video, and while it isn't the most intellectual of commentary styles right from the start, I'm not getting anything from it which would indicate a fraudulent event being constructed. It does seem fishy however that they don't show where the HiPAC tube failed, in close up. Lots of shots of the bloody valve. None of the failed threads or tube. I'm thinking somehow the valve being improperly secured resulted in the 2,000psi pushing it out through the back of the airgun tube once a bolt was removed, perhaps the rear grip frame bolt, perhaps something else. Impossible to guess properly without a lot more careful video evidence being presented. But the main point was made long ago in the thread by Bob or Al; just one retaining bolt when going to pressures like that is reckless, period. Practically suicidal. I can't see how to fault Alex's HiPAC device for this incident without a LOT more proof being presented. It's a product with its share of related problems, but this presentation seems unfair and doesn't present nearly enough facts.

[45Bravo]

I am glad he is going to be ok, but.

It's a dead horse, but I agree with Bob.
The valve seems to be retained by the 1 same screw of the 22xx system,
the stock screws he refers to COULD have been the front & rear screws that hold the grip frame to the tube.
 Not the stock to the grip frame.
Different people have different levels of expertise, and call parts of a gun different things.

Mistake number 1.
Working that deep into a pressurized gun.

Mistake number 2.
Using a hipac with a valve it wasn't designed to work with.

I think it's too convenient that the battery died when it did.. 

Missing minutes?

He's old enough to remember Nixon...

[FuzzyGrub]

If you look at their facebook page, they have the same gun in a bullpup stock (or one built very similar to it) that was used in competition. 

[Ribbonstone]

Looking over the photos, agree with Bob.

Not saying this is how it happened, but from the vid, it seems like the following hints at what could have happened.

Tube was pressurized during disassembly.

Because that is a bulk fill valve, the HiPac couldn't have be used as it was designed to be used.  No way it would fit or work with that valve unless it was being used in ways it was not designed to be used.  Could have used just the front 1/2 (the fill half) and used it to pressurize the whole air tube.  This would about double the stress load to the valve compared to using a HiPac as intended.

No evidence of any added valve fixation. At least at some (probably very short time wise) point, that valve was trying to hold all the force with one little screw.

Pretty sure that the take down continued in the missing minutes and it was an empty tube from the valve back.  He'd have had a shotgun wound of many small bits added to that valve transition (bits of screws, end cap, etc.).  During that disassembly, not clear what else got loosened/removed.

Not real sure how the threaded part of the HiPac is still in the tube.  HAve guesses as to how that could happen, which include air pressure, but also some over tightening.

Won't seem like friendly advice at first...but it is meant to be.

Whatever hospital did that job, go to a differenet hospital before you end up losing that leg.  All sorts of nastiness would have been carried  into that wound, not just the little ragged patch of blue jean material shown. Fibers of cloth, bits of metal, unsterilized skin/hair, bits of metal from snapped screw(s),bits of O-rings from the bulk valve, etc.  At the minimum you should have been in an OR, under sedation, while they removed bits of obviously dead tissue, cleaned and washed that out.

Truthfully mean it...get it looked at by a better professional (and an OR nurse that knows how bandages are suppose to work work). Can heal at the surface yet erupt into serious infection weeks/months later (and after cooking in the body, fighting off your natural responces, once one of those infections that already beat your immune system gets going, it's really really hard to stop them).

[Bwalton]

My thing is this, the footage was edited out, this was suppose to be a youtube video, and all camcorders let you know when the battery is low, So if indeed they could only record 2.22mins of footage they would have seen right off that it was very low battery....
  Something was done that maybe they did not want everyone to see? Maybe an over fill? I do not know, Needless to say that none of it was explained to the full.

[Mod90]

I'm glad to see he's going to recover from his wound.
This is why I do not encourage persons to attempt these kind of conversions & modifications. Some people just do not take into account the tolerances & strengths required when dealing with HPA seriously enough & may assemble parts that are under high pressure in ways that are just not sufficient. Those assemblys may hold, but for how long no one knows, and if/when they fail more often than not the builder will blame the parts, & not the fact that they didn't care to ensure the design of their build was strong enough for the purpose & pressures it was used for. All I'm saying is that quite often persons hate the concept of acknowledging their own negligence.
IMHO there's absolutely nothing wrong with safely tweaking a gun to improve performance using stock & a few minor aftermarket or custom made parts. Things like changing a tp, mod an original valve for better flow, lightening a hammer or increasing tension on a spring are all fine. But from the time you start to build a hybrid gun out of assorted make & model parts, if you're not careful you're playing a different version of russian roulette and you do so at your own risk. If one does things this way and things go sideways, one must own their failures as well as their accomplishments.

[sixshootertexan]

2 more things I want to say. No blood on the floor and it's a .75 caliber hole not a .60.

[rsterne]

Also important to note that the disco valve is intended to seal to the tube...it likely has a closer tolerance than the 22xx valve to avoid extruding the o-ring.

Good theory, but.... I just measured two of each here, and the 22XX valves were 0.735-0.736" and the Disco valves were 0.730-0.732".... I have measured several Disco valve in the past at 0.733-0.734"....

Something nobody has mentioned.... The Disco valve is about 0.6" longer than a 22XX valve at the front end.... If you put one in any 22XX tube, the HiPac intended for that tube won't fit.... A 2250 tube (similar to a 2400?) is about 1.2" longer than a 2240, so the 2240 HiPac would be too short to seal against the Disco valve.... This leads me to the conclusion that the Disco valve likely had the O-rings in place, and the tube was under pressure.... That would explain the extreme force being enough to shear the (at least one) screw in the first place.... Another thought.... Isn't the HiPac designed NOT to seal into the front of a Crosman tube?.... If the tube is pressurized, then something had to be added/modified to seal it.... Al, please correct me if I'm wrong about that....

Another thing I heard on the video....

"That gun was slowly falling apart for two days"

No idea what that means, but could the (single) valve screw have sheared, moving the valve back until it was resting on the front screw of the trigger group?.... The transfer port would be (partially?) misaligned, and the hammer stroke shortened, resulting in lost power, and requiring maintenance to determine the cause.... When they removed the front stock screw (having previously removed the rear cap and hammer, per the video) the valve blew out the back into his leg.... A possibility?....

Still have no idea how the HiPac failed, however.... that is the most puzzling part of this, everything else can be pretty much explained by the valve being sealed into the tube and only a single valve screw.... The second (apparent) failure of that kind in a couple of weeks.... When will people learn?....

Bob

[nervoustrigger]

My first impression was that the valve ejected and the rapid expansion of air sent the rest of the gun rocketing in the opposite direction, smashing it and causing collateral damage to the Hipac tube.

I just don't see any way that the Hipac tube could fail first and somehow cause the valve to eject.   I sure wish they had given their rationale as to why they think it happened that way.

[Gerard]

High pressure air can't deliver a one-two punch like they're describing. If the HiPAC failed at the threads, as they claim, there would be an instantaneous pressure drop to 1 atmosphere, no magical second pulse of pressure to push a valve through his leg. Just as there is no reservoir behind the valve to magically punch it forward, out the front of the tube and into his leg. The valve blew out the back because nothing was restraining it but one tiny bolt. In the necessarily equal and opposite reaction the tube and HiPAC went exactly the opposite way, embedding in the wall and ceiling. Somewhere in all that the main tube got knocked off, or got unscrewed deliberately, only those two guys know for sure.