The cost of freedom and the cost of want.

[mojomoto]

North Pack

All ideas have to start somewhere. Right on.
Its much easier to say "that will never work! bla bla bla."
There will probably be many different forms of powering vehicles too. Eventually. Just a guess.

newguyontheblock

If you dont mind work...you will be fine.
Good luck on the assessment!!
Im glad you take my suggestions as just that..... All of my decissions in life havent been the right ones. Owning small well built cars all of my life so far has been. Ive never made much money but I own everything I have. When you have a small car its "a dollar saved.......is eventually thousands earned." And im one of a few people who can dead lift the back of their car. (when the tank is almost empty.) 

[newguyontheblock (Nathan)]

seeing friends do the job that i want to has shown me some of the awsome things they can do. i love wrenching on things so why not do it for a living?

my parents classified me getting a truck as a learning experience, they are half hoping it works great for me, the other half is hoping it breaks and then watching me cope with it. im not too worried

[oldpink]

My opinion about the real energy of the future is hydrogen, either burned or in a fuel cell.
The real hurdles are the extraction and storage part, since using current energy to produce it would be no better than ethanol, which requires MORE energy to produce than it yields.
Hydrogen is extremely plentiful, has only water vapor as a byproduct of burning, and could even be extracted from rotting garbage, a real bonus.

[mojomoto]

My opinion about the real energy of the future is hydrogen, either burned or in a fuel cell.
The real hurdles are the extraction and storage part, since using current energy to produce it would be no better than ethanol, which requires MORE energy to produce than it yields.
Hydrogen is extremely plentiful, has only water vapor as a byproduct of burning, and could even be extracted from rotting garbage, a real bonus.

OLDPINK!!!!
We agree!!! Ethanol is ridiculous!!! Thats coming from a farm boy!!
I think methane is the garbage/poo gas? I might be wrong. Methane is good too!
Hydrogen is cool. Have you ever made it? (Hydrogen everybody makes Methane.)

[cbtumedic]

Methane is the garbage gas, but it can be converted to hydrogen fairly easily. I believe Hydrogen is our best bet at reducing our oil dependency but to get to that level we must be smart and patient, after all, new technology take time and capital investment.   Hopefully we will start to see some more widespread hydrogen usage in a few years.  Right now there are a few hydrogen fueling stations in California, several in one of the Carolina's (IIRC,) and one of two in either arizona, nevada, or utah (I can't remember which one.) 

[Onebaddj]

I think we should drill our own oil and be self sufficient. Yes theres plenty in our own back yard but the hippies wont let us because of what might happen, BP. We also need to stop helping every little terd that has a problem. Heres 4 billion Mexico go fight the cartel. Really who do thinks in charge of Mexico? Just blew that money. And hold peeps accountable. When we walked into the dealership last fall to get an 08 surburban for my wife to haul the trophies in, there was a lady and "friend" there with her 5 kids. 4 were under 10 adn tearing the dealership apart, literally. Shaking candy machines throwing the kids furniture! And the whole time a 13-14 yr old was chasing them trying to control them. Well turns out she was a welfare mom and laughed about the fact that one months welfare check for one of the kids would cover the payment on the brand new surburban! So here I am fresh outa Iraq with a nurse for a wife buying a sensable used one adn this jobless couple is getting a brand new one. Now here comes the real kick in the teeth. I owed 3700 in taxes this year because the base I was at in Atlanta closed adn I had to sell my house out there for a $110,000 loss and me and the wife pulled money from our ira's to put new carpet and paint in it so the clown buying it would close on it. You know where my tax money went to that chics surburban! And she's still laughing all the way to the bank adn probably filling it with premium then driving to see all her friends in her new ride while that young kid raises those other kids and she gets paid for it.

We need to go back to a society where you get what you work for and be self sustaining again. Unfortunatly theres too many people out there with an underserved sense of entitlement standing in lines with their hands out stopping us from getting back to that. And the worst part is we, as a country created this problem. And my rant is done. I gota go to bed. Ha rumph! Ha Rumph!   

[RedFeather]

Well, this won't make you any happier but there isn't enough domestic gas/oil to meet out present consumption.  There might have been if the fields like West Texas weren't over-worked way back when and the natural gas flared off (because it wasn't worth anything).  We won't be self-sufficient until we change the way we live here.  Just the way things are.  It would be nice if it were true that there's endless supplies of oil and gas here on the homefront but it's a misconception, especially on the part of the oil companies.  They want to see oil and gas, not scare everyone into using less.  Do they really care about the next several generations?  Nope.  Most of the decision makers will be dead by then.  Remember Enron?

[oldpink]

RF, I beg to differ on some of that.
Yes, some of the existing fields have been used heavily, but as I type this, North Dakota is exploiting new technology and getting several million barrels a year and growing.
And that's out of their own existing oil fields that had previously been thought of as pretty well tapped out, as it were.
Haven't even gotten into the huge tracts of land put off limits by enviro-nuts or the coastal wells likewise put off limits.
When they forced petroleum companies to put platforms in mile deep water, that sure made things more complicated and risky for the whole operation.
Sure would have been less chance for problems in water only a couple of hundred feet deep.
And, as if that weren't bad enough, we have China and Russia right now drilling just off our coasts in areas put off limits by unaccountable bureaucrats and starry-eyed idealists who think the answer is just around the corner.
Well, when the idealists come up with a way to use their own flatulants as the energy source of the future, maybe we will finally have our solution; but until then, we have oil, natural gas, coal and (if the nuts will just let us produce more of it) nuclear.

[North Pack]

Not to mention converting coal to diesel, - pretty much the way Germany supplied it tanks & heavy equipment with in WWII. - We have massive amounts of coal & natural gas. ... Switching away from fossil is a nice idea, but will take decades (plural) and to ignore what we do have available is stupid beyond words.

[mojomoto]

Onebaddj

I may disagree about drilling more solving any future problems and that we have plenty of it under our feet.

I feel your anger about the welfare princess.
I know some people who play the full disability game too yet they can ride a snowmobile, fourwheeler and lawnmower. 

"We need to go back to a society where you get what you work for and be self sustaining again. Unfortunately theres too many people out there with an undeserved sense of entitlement standing in lines with their hands out stopping us from getting back to that. And the worst part is we, as a country created this problem. And my rant is done."

Sweet nectar of reality!!!! Didnt sound like a rant to me!!! Sounded like you were pounding the pulpit of common sense.

RedFeather

Yep. LOL!!!!

oldpink

I agree that the answer most likely is not around the corner. Unless some breakthrew in fusion happens sometime soon. I wouldnt count on it either. Even if..., it would take decades to get the technology into reliable, efficent power plants (Unless we get a kick in the comfort zone . Agree with nuclear too. Clean and fairly abundant power sourced here.

I differ on how long oil will last nobody really knows for sure how much is left. I will shoot for a guess somewhere in the middle. The world wants what we have.. We owe China lots of $$$$$ (I have to admit ive bought things from China. I helped create that one. Sorry guys ). They (up and coming countries) love things with engines that use gas too. Just like us. We cant forget, people are people a lot like us, all over the world.
Pay attention to the population of just the developed countries!....the more people....the more need. Just concernes me the way I think. Better safe than sorry.

North Pack

The conversion tech is there but man....it is sooo filthy. I really wish coal was cleaner . I wish I could safely eat more fish caught from the lake I live by. Coal burns, smoke goes up, coal smoke caries mercury, rain happens, air gets "filtered" if you catch my drift. Ive lived in the country my whole life. I really appreciate the nature resource we were blessed with in this country. I want to keep that resource as clean as possible.  . That being said... I get most of my electricity from coal power so.... I am a hypocrite ....of no choice.

[North Pack]

With todays technology we can reduce the emission problems a great deal. - There's a coal burning power plant just north of here, about 18 miles. It's been there since the Stone Age, is getting upgrades all the time, and no one is complaining about the emissions OR THE POWER.  - We can do A LOT more than we're currently doing to "help ourselves".
.
http://www.energyvortex.com/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=2064
.
http://theblogprof.blogspot.com/2009/07/coal-to-diesel-plant-moving-forward-in.html
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http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/04/sciencedaily_co.html
.
http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?StoryId=1093396003

[RedFeather]

Yes, there is oil and gas yet to be found, but, as a senior vice president in charge of exploration and development for one of the nation's top E&D companies once told me, it's hard to get.  Very deep water drilling, tar sand extraction, hostile work environments, small pockets in the Rockies, things like that which make it very expensive to extract.  Fields have been reworked since the 1970's.  Advances such as ground penetrating radar, flushing previously unrecoverable oil from old basins, patterned drilling represent techinques which are going on forty years old in some cases.  Just Googled and it looks like the US uses about 21 millions barrels - per day.  That's going to take a lot of new reserves to meet, at existing levels.  Let's hope hydrogen, solar, etc, pan out - and in time.

[North Pack]

RF, - it's extremely unlikely this country will ever be completely "energy independent", - at least not in the life time of anyone living today. - Using what we have available though, is another matter. We CAN greatly "reduce that dependence." - Personally, I'd say geothermal sounds like a great way to go, power 24/7, no shipping costs, no storage, dependable supply at a fixed cost, - couldn't ask for more. Unfortunately it's "likely to be a few years", to put it mildly,  before more than a few relatively small areas benefit from it.

[mojomoto]

North Pack.

Thanks for the info and your time posting it. I will read every one.

Gives me some hope and lifts my guilt burdon a little.

I like your can do and do it better attitude.

I am a bit preservationist but...Yellowstone has a wealth of geothermal possibilities. I think, as with foresting in national parks while, using common sense and respect, there may be a compromise to help everyone.

RedFeather

I am impressed. You are a find out for myself kinda guy.
Straight from the horses mouth too. That is how to get accurate info!!!

[RedFeather]

Here's the thing about geothermal, wind power, solar power and such.  They are all fine for where they are located.  Yes, Yellowstone has quite a bit of geothermal but the trouble is bears don't need electricity.  Wind is good where you have wind but current generating technology doesn't provide that much output and you also need storage for when the wind isn't blowing.  Feeding an electric grid requires a steady source of power.  Ditto solar.  I'm not knocking any of these.  They work well where they are sited.  Now, what's really cool are ocean wave powered generators.  Strung out along a coastline, they can be less invasive than wind turbines and the ocean makes waves 24/7.  Please don't get me started on nukier energy (as Jimmy Carter used to call it).  That's site dependent, too, believe it or not.  Need a lot of cooling water, so Arizona, etc, is out of the picture.  Conservation is about the best bet until something comes along.  While I hate fluorescent bulbs (I have a strip of six in the master bath we leave on all night long since they take forever to reach max output), I can see where they use less than incandescents, thereby forestalling the need for a new multi-million (billion?) dollar generation facility.

Want to see something really interesting?  Superconductivity.  If scientists can find a way to increase conductivity at near ambient temperatures, our energy problem will be solved for a long time.  Hardly any transmission losses and electric car motors that draw a mere fraction of the electricity used by the most efficient today.

[mojomoto]

I remember a while back that most superconductor material had to be super chilled to work properly. The person or company that can mass produce a super-conducting wire that operates at "normal" temperatures will be in the history books with the Wright brothers.

Yep we are on the same page.

I was thinking hydrogen (where there is fresh water) could be made on site and piped with less loss of energy than electricity. Hydrogen would be good for home heating and small fuel cells. Maybe?

"Conservation is about the best bet until something comes along" Might not be the answer but will help getting to one. Agreed.

Funny. W and Carter both need to learn how to pronounce new-clee-r.

I think LEDs will be the next and best thing in lighting. I have fluorescents in my house. They dont bother me a bit. The wait doesn't bother me for some reason. Dont really like that they are complicated and not easy to recycle. I like how simple and non heat generating LEDs are. They have come a long way. Bought one for the entryway to our house. The are so $$$$$. Thats probably what i will replace the fluorescents with when they start going out.

[RedFeather]

Only thing about LED's is I'm not too partial to the harsh bluish light they currently produce.  That said, I bought some color changing globe Christmas lights two years ago and they really work.  Plus I can string six complete sets (these are baseball sized multiple globes) off one outlet, the power drain is so low.  And no heat, plus they have about a twenty year life.  (Probably be burning long after I'm not.)  But the LED's for home use are pricey, as you say.  Check out those for car headlights.  Currently only on exotics.  And, as bright as they seem, it will be hard facing oncoming traffic, especially if they are anything like the intense blue headlights out there now.

Guess we'll just have to hunker down and wait.  One thing's for sure.  As long as you can cock it and have a tin of pellets, air guns will still be working.

[North Pack]

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html
.
It's not really a question of whether "we like this or not" - it's happening. Small nuclear plants are feasible, - and work 24/7, are not weather or sunlight dependent, no transportation costs, not impacted by some neurotic foreign dictator. Naturally, my guess is that these units shouldn't be installed in an area prone to earthquakes. ... If we're waiting for the "perfect solution" that everyone loves, - get over it, simply not gonna happen.
.
Wave power is another good idea RF, and about the same cost to a household as wind power - or about three times the cost of coal generated electricity. Like most "natural power" generated approaches, - a lot depends on the location. Northern latitudes and/or the west coast of continents are the best locations. It's being done in a number of spots worldwide today, ...

[RedFeather]

NorthPark, that Toshiba mini goes into the same file as the pills Henry Ford bought to turn water into gasoline.  Somebody spoofed the green forums with it a while back.  As to using the beatitudes as a source of energy, well, considering how well people have followed them for the past two thousand years, it might be "hello ice age".

One thing I didn't touch on with nuclear is waste disposal.  It's not pretty nor easy.  I was on a nuke sub with the old Westinghouse reactor (the "hibachi pot", as well called it).  Had to be refueled every so many years with a new core and the primary coolant is "hot", too.  Want to see an environmental nightmare?  Google on Murmansk and the river there where they have a sub base.  It's a radiological disaster.  For military or similar applications, nuclear is fine.  For domestic use it leaves a lot to be desired.  They can brag all they want over in Europe but most of their plants are cookie-cutter Chernobyl generation.  Cheap and inefficient.  I hope that, if nuclear power is really promoted here in the US, we don't go that route.

Idea!  Atomic pellets.  You build this pellet trap and line the back with plutonium.  Take a Gamo "armor piercing" pellet, pull the metal ball and replace it with another of plutonium.  When the pellet strikes the back plate, it sets up a very minute reaction, warming it and transferring the heat to a series of pipes, producing steam to power a turbine generator.  I think it will work but only for those springers that can produce 1250 fps or higher (with plutonium pellets - "Craptors"), a neat trick since plutonium is about twice the weight of lead.  I would go with plutonium 238, used in satellites, etc.  (It will build more heat as it accumulates.)  Be sure to wear gloves and a respirator.  One nice plus is that you won't need to install glow sights on your barrel - it will eventually emit enough light by itself.  Don't use the Craptors for hunting, however, unless we want a world filled with mutant nutters and starlings.  (Might come back to bite us - literally.)  Well, how's my idea sound?  Pu or P-yew?  That's me........always thinkin'.....

One thing I like about the GTA - we is so cerebral.  What other AG forum discusses topics like these?  :-)  

[cheez]

OK I have been reading and keeping up with this thread since it started. Since several of you have been led to believe we have little or no oil here on our own soil please explain this.
Please read the whole thing and check out the link.

Here's an astonishing read. Important and verifiable information :

About 6 months ago, the writer was watching a news program on oil and one of the Forbes Bros. was the guest. The host said to Forbes, "I am going to ask you a direct question and I would like a direct answer; how much oil does the U.S. have in the ground?" Forbes did not miss a beat, he said, "more than all the Middle East put together." Please read below.


The U. S. Geological Service issued a report in April 2008 that only scientists and oil men knew was coming, but man was it big. It was a revised report (hadn't been updated since 1995) on how much oil was in this area of the western 2/3 of North Dakota, western South Dakota, and extreme eastern Montana ..... check THIS out:



The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska 's Prudhoe Bay , and has the potential to eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates it at 503 billion barrels. Even if just 10% of the oil is recoverable... at $107 a barrel, we're looking at a resource base worth more than $5...3 trillion.



"When I first briefed legislators on this, you could practically see their jaws hit the floor. They had no idea.." says Terry Johnson, the Montana Legislature's financial analyst.

"This sizable find is now the highest-producing onshore oil field found in the past 56 years," reports The Pittsburgh Post Gazette . It's a formation known as the Williston Basin , but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.' It stretches from Northern Montana , through North Dakota and into Canada . For years, U. S. oil exploration has been considered a dead end. Even the 'Big Oil' companies gave up searching for major oil wells decades ago. However, a recent technological breakthrough has opened up the Bakken's massive reserves..... and we now have access of up to 500 billion barrels. And because this is light, sweet oil, those billions of barrels will cost Americans just $16 PER BARREL!

That's enough crude to fully fuel the American economy for 2041 years straight. And if THAT didn't throw you on the floor, then this next one should - because it's from 2006!



U.. S. Oil Discovery- Largest Reserve in the World

Stansberry Report Online - 4/20/2006

Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels. On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction. In three and a half years of high oil prices none has been extracted. With this motherload of oil why are we still fighting over off-shore drilling?

They reported this stunning news: We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.. Here are the official estimates:

- 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia

- 18-times as much oil as Iraq

- 21-times as much oil as Kuwait

- 22-times as much oil as Iran

- 500-times as much oil as Yemen

- and it's all right here in the Western United States .



HOW can this BE? HOW can we NOT BE extracting this? Because the environmentalists and others have blocked all efforts to help America become independent of foreign oil! Again, we are letting a small group of people dictate our lives and our economy.....WHY?

James Bartis, lead researcher with the study says we've got more oil in this very compact area than the entire Middle East -more than 2 TRILLION barrels untapped. That's more than all the proven oil reserves of crude oil in the world today, reports The Denver Post .

Don't think 'OPEC' will drop its price - even with this find? Think again! It's all about the competitive marketplace, - it has to. Think OPEC just might be funding the environmentalists?

Got your attention yet? Now, while you're thinking about it, do this:

Pass this along. If you don't take a little time to do this, then you should stifle yourself the next time you complain about gas prices - by doing NOTHING, you forfeit your right to complain.

Now I just wonder what would happen in this country if every one of you sent this to every one in your address book.



By the way...this is all true. Check it out at the link below!!!

GOOGLE it, or follow this link. It will blow your mind.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911