QB79 HPA build for GTA member



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Offline nervoustrigger

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QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« on: March 24, 2015, 02:48:49 PM »
I wanted to do a little pictorial sequence of a .22 cal QB79 HPA build I have been working on for GTA member UCChris.

Chris wants this gun for 50+ yard hunting duties so the goal was to get over 25fpe and let the shot count fall where it may.  The tank block on a 79 almost butts against the front of the valve, meaning the plenum volume is essentially the valve volume.  With so little on-deck air to work with, that makes it a little trickier to reach the 30fpe level.  But I thought that would be a fun challenge to take on, so off I went.

First up, I knew we would want a fairly high regulator setpoint of 1500psi to achieve the energy goal.  So a bit by experience and trial and error, I assembled a Belleville stack onto a Ninja regulator stem and hit a setpoint of 1550psi according to my precision gauge:



Refer to Bob's detailed thread for info on how to do this:  http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=49648.msg469843#msg469843
Also, if you use a hand pump like me, a very small "tank" makes the trial-and-error process much less of a chore:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=73635

With that done, time to make some metal shavings!

Rear Velocity Adjuster
Drilled the end cap for a rear velocity adjuster (RVA).  It's a 10-32 x 1.5" screw through the end cap which can be threaded in or out to push against the back of the spring guide, whereby adjusting the amount of preload on the hammer spring.  Making relatively small adjustments to preload has a profound effect on velocity and air usage (efficiency), so the effort to do this mod is well worth it.  Notice it also has a #6-32 set screw intersecting it to lock in the adjustment.



Cock-on-open mod
The cock-on-open mod is another worthwhile change.  The action is more natural I think.  Also, the original cock-on-close action masks certain potential problems like pellets hanging while chambering or fitting too loose or too tight.  This mod makes it easier to detect those kinds of issues. 

First, milled a rear downslot for the bolt handle.  This change allows the bolt to be latched back out of the way to make it easy to load a pellet.  At higher power levels necessitating a fair amount of spring preload, the bolt probe may otherwise push forward into the loading tray, making it difficult to insert a pellet.



The other piece of this mod is to remove the rear pin in the spring guide.



Lastly a 0.6" long spacer was added to the shaft of the spring guide.  This spacer is simply a section cut from an ink pen.  Stacking washers on the spring guide would also work fine.  Sorry, I did not take a picture of it.

Securing the barrel
This modification helps secure the barrel in the receiver which improves shot-to-shot consistency.  I located a spot on the receiver behind the factory set screw, in between where two of the barrel O-rings reside, then drilled and tapped a hole for an #8-32 set screw.  An M4 would also be a good choice if you want to stick with metric fasteners.  The scuff marks have since been cleaned up and cold blued with Van's.



Air flow modifications
Ported the barrel to 0.170", same as the ID of the poly tubing that is used for the transfer port seal.  Then radiused the port inside the barrel to prevent a sharp edge from marring the pellets as they are chambered.



Drilled the nose of the bolt probe out to 0.170" as well:



And enlarged the side opening:



Valve modifications
Milled 1/4" wide slots in the side of the valve body and drilled out the center hole.  Reduced the poppet OD from 0.371" ->  0.340" and polished up the brass.  Drilled out the valve throat from 0.194" -> 0.219".  Tapered the valve stem from 0.117" -> 0.077" in the region where air flows around it and up through the valve exhaust.  Also radiused the inside edges of the exhaust (in the throat) to reduce turbulence.  And finally, fitted a conical valve spring from Daniel's (rdsail) group buy, a Century Spring TA-2122.



Increasing the plenum
Bored out the center of the tank block to increase the volume of regulated air available to the valve during the shot cycle.  I think the diameter was 7/16" or perhaps 15/32", and as deep as I was comfortable drilling so as not to punch through into the holes where the tank block retaining screws go.



Before reassembly, I thoroughly deburred and polished things where appropriate, especially where O-rings might get nicked on installation.

Chrony testing
A little twisting of the RVA screw to find the maximum velocity yielded...

23.9fpe with 14.3gr Crosman Premier hollow points:


26.1fpe with JSB 18.13gr heavies:


Goal met!  That's running pedal to the floor, so to speak...quite loud and surely using a lot of air.  I would want to back off of that slightly for better efficiency. 

However, wouldn't it be nice if we could hit 30fpe?  As it turns out, there's more energy to be obtained by a rather simple valve modification so that will come next.

[edit]Photobucket can die.[/edit]
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 01:19:00 AM by nervoustrigger »
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Offline Geoff

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 02:52:19 PM »
thanks for the tutorial
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Offline Matt15

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 02:55:48 PM »
Very Cool!!
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Offline nervoustrigger

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 03:31:57 PM »
Thanks guys!   Another update here in a few minutes...

Offline nervoustrigger

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 03:35:17 PM »
Looking for more energy, I pulled the valve and proceeded to cut away the entire front (aluminum) part of the valve.  I kept only a small ring to retain the -113 valve O-ring.  I failed to take photos so here is a sketch:



Then I cut a couple of notches into it so I could reach down into the air tube and turn the ring to put a squeeze on the O-ring to help it seal.



I then took the conical valve spring and stretched it slightly so it would be long enough to rest against the tank block.  The nice thing about the wide base of the conical spring is that it is large enough to straddle the hole bored in the tank block.

Got the rifle reassembled and started pumping.  No leaks!  A victory in and of itself. ;)

With it pumped up a little over 2000psi, above the 1550psi regulator setpoint and enough to get a few shots, here's what we have:

27.1fpe with Crosman Premier hollow points


29.9fpe with JSB 18.13gr heavies:


31.3fpe with Kodaik 21.14gr:


And lastly, 34.0fpe with Eunjin 28.5gr:


That should do it for the energy goals.

Next up is to fine-tune the RVA and begin pellet testing and accurizing.  It may be the weekend before I post an update on that.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 01:22:19 AM by nervoustrigger »
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Offline starlingassassin

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 04:34:10 PM »
jason,

very impressive numbers and workmanship!  ;D
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Offline LAalex

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 04:51:20 PM »
Nice work Jason.  Looking forward to the finished product.

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Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 05:25:55 PM »
Pretty Cool Jason!,
You've got the process down............... and must be related to Bob 8)?
It's a pleasure ;)
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Offline rsterne

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 06:13:15 PM »
Good job!.... You don't need the notches in the valve ring, just glue it to the back half using an O-ring for a spacer to get the right gap.... A standard, cheap 70D buna O-ring (or a better one, of course) will seal just the way O-rings are supposed to, by moving into the rear, outer corner of the groove.... same as "normal" valve seal....

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Offline nervoustrigger

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 07:01:52 PM »
Thanks guys.

Bob, thanks for the heads up about the valve O-ring.  I remembered you saying something about being pleased that it sealed when you documented the $200 PCP so I figured a belt-and-suspenders approach would be worth the 2 minutes it took to grind some notches with the Dremel.  Hissing air is like fingernails on a chalkboard! :D 

Offline nervoustrigger

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 07:12:42 PM »
Okay, ran some pellets across the chrony to check efficiency and consistency.  Started with a partial fill of 2600psi and shot until it fell off the regulator at 1500psi.  Got 51 shots, all within 2% of the peak velocity for an efficiency of 1.41 fpe/ci.  Extrapolated to a full 3000psi fill, it would yield 69 shots  :o

Equally pleasing is the consistency for a brand spankin' new rifle and newly assembled regulator paired with CPHP pellets from the tin.

Stat summary
No shots:  51 (69 on full fill)
Max:  922fps
Min:  902fps
Average energy:  26.7fpe
ES:  20
SD:  3.59
Efficiency:  1.41 fpe/ci
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 07:22:45 PM by nervoustrigger »
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Offline Gertrude

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2015, 08:10:46 PM »
VERY Cool build thread !
I will be following with great interest and anticipation  ;)  ;D
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Offline UCChris

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2015, 09:19:58 PM »
Did I read that right? Did you say 69 shots? That's with it at 29.9 fpe with JSB 18.1? (I know you tested with the CPHP, but same tune?)

So, you hit 34 fpe with this rifle. Imagine what you could do, power wise, on a 78 with your nifty valve mod!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 09:38:04 PM by UCChris »
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Offline Tonycalves

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2015, 09:24:29 PM »
Nice job Jason!
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Offline nervoustrigger

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2015, 11:15:10 PM »
Chris, yes that's right.  Same tune.

Put a couple of extra pumps in at the end and call it 70 shots :)  Actually, you should pick up a small number of shots with a heavier pellet anyway.

Offline UCChris

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2015, 11:35:34 PM »
Chris, yes that's right.  Same tune.

Put a couple of extra pumps in at the end and call it 70 shots :)  Actually, you should pick up a small number of shots with a heavier pellet anyway.

I've died and gone to heaven. You have way surpassed my expectations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2015, 01:35:18 AM »
Hey Jason,
Performance looks fantastic ;).  Can you please ship that gun to me now!  ;D
Kirk
  • Bothell, WA
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347
BSA R10 (.177), BSA R10 (.22)
Beeman R10 (.177) or (.20)
Diana Stormrider (.177)
HW30S  (.177), HW30S (.177)
HW35ES (.177), HW35E (.177)
HW50SS (.177), HW50S (.177)
HW77K (.177), HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (.177)
QB78D (.177), QB78DHPA (.22)
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Selling:
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- Hatsan AT44 -10 .177 caliber - exc. condition
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- 2 -> HW50S Stocks - Both in excellent condition.

Offline UCChris

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2015, 01:40:10 AM »
Hey Jason,
Performance looks fantastic ;).  Can you please ship that gun to me now!  ;D
Kirk

I will find you, hurt you, and take it back.

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But you're welcome to move to Utah and play with it!
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Offline Matt15

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Re: QB79 HPA build for GTA member
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2015, 09:54:13 AM »
Awesome build Jason. 8) Congrats on a fine gun Chris!!! 8)
  • Il
Tuned Webley Patriot .25  28 FPE 
Benjamin Trail np pistol: 400 fps
Crosman 2100 12 pumps= 790 fps with 7.9 gr pellet

2017-2018 Squirrel Season
Squirrels: 20


2016-2017 Squirrel Season
The Total was:
15 Fox Squirrels
11 grey squirrels

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