Author Topic: RWS 34 Spring Question - Is this normal?? (Read 17011 times))

dsaavedra · « **Reply #20 on:** June 18, 2014, 07:36:15 PM »

I was aware of the droop problem with Dianas before I bought the rifle. I am pleased to say that I have no such issue with my rifle. On the first day I got it , I was hitting teaspoon spinner targets at ~30 yards with the open sights. That evening I mounted my scope (which I had already optically centered) with Loctite and let it set overnight and the next day I had it zeroed in without much adjustment at all. Before the issue I experienced when I made this post, I could get dime sized groups at 30 yards. I have noticed this rife is very very hold sensitive so I am hoping that the grinding noise is just the cocking slot which I can smooth out easily and the accuracy issue was just me being off my game. I am going to shoot it a bit more before I make any decisions.

dsaavedra · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:57:51 AM »

Well it's been over a year now and college, work, life, and a lack of courage got in the way. Sadly, my gun has sat in the cabinet untouched for almost 13 months. But I finally mustered up the courage to order a Vortek kit, take my gun apart, and install the new kit. I decided to dig up this old thread just to give everyone who contributed an update, as well as help out anyone who may have the same problem and came across this thread in the search bar.

I got my gun apart tonight using a spring compressor and it was actually pretty painless. The scariest part was taking the barrel off because the sleeve inside the pivot was very snug and I was scared I was damaging something with the amount of force I had to apply to push it out. I don't see any scratches on it and didn't hear or feel anything nasty when I was pushing it out so I think it's okay. After that, setting the gun up in the compressor and taking it apart was a breeze. Slid the trigger assembly out, then slid the spring out and sure enough, the main spring was broke as a joke.

The piston seal also had a bit of wear around the edges, but nothing that appeared major.

It's late here so I'm going to save the degreasing, deburring, lubing, and installation of the Vortek kit for tomorrow. But I am now confident it will go well. I'll update again when I install the kit. Thanks for the help everyone.

texcl · « **Reply #22 on:** July 04, 2015, 12:56:40 AM »

Glad you got her back together, mine set for around 20 years before fixing it recently, it also had a broken spring in a similar spot but ended up with a rusty bore so had to buy a new barrel and fit it. I recently bought a 34 compact and It is incredibly accurate and not hold sensitive at all. So I guess you win some and lose some.

LAalex · « **Reply #23 on:** July 04, 2015, 04:47:14 AM »

Once you get it back together and start shooting, you are going to love it. The 34 is a sweet rifle and the Vortek kit makes it even better. Good Job.

Scotty

MarkinJHawkland · « **Reply #24 on:** July 04, 2015, 08:30:21 AM »

Yup that's about where mine broke. You could keep that spring and guide for a back up. Just heat the broke end with a torch until it's hot enough to flatten. I put the other end of the spring in water while I heat it. After flattening dress it with a grinder. It would probably be smoother although a few fps slower.

I'm wondering if you had the barrel open when you removed the barrel pivot? If it's closed the tension from the detent spring could be the reason you had difficulty removing it. Just guessing.....

You are going to enjoy the Vortek kit I'll bet.

Mark N

shootist · « **Reply #25 on:** July 04, 2015, 09:36:09 AM »

I once sent an air gun to Umarex for warranty repair. Came back worse then when it was sent in and returned it to the retailer. NEVER again will I do that. Just MY $.02. Lee

nced · « **Reply #26 on:** July 04, 2015, 10:42:13 AM »

I have a few comments that are simply personal opinions based on personal experiences and my "differences of opinion are perhaps misguided (but I don't think so)

In regards to my spring compressor,
I built mine from a bar clamp that sits in a cradle made from construction 2x4s.....

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
I do have the intention to make a "more proper" spring compressor however this scheme has worked for my over a couple decades.

you are correct in that if you want it done right, you often have to do it youself.
LOL.....decades ago I learned that the HW springers I shoot aren't "rocket science" and even the cost of shipping an airgun to a "service center" would buy several consummable items like piston seals and springs. Learning to DIY just made sense to me, however I'm the sort who finds working on my HW springers almost as much fun as shootin' 'em! LOL....at least I don't need good weather to mod my guns!

I'll start with lube. If you don't lube it, you will have the noise, tang, vibration, etc., and this will give you an extra (read: large) bit of twang to your scope. Without the lube-tune to calm the rifle down,
I have little experience with Dianas however I've read that they're shipped practically dry. This is in contrast to HWs that come slathered with some form of tan grease. Here is a piston pulled from a R9 showing the grease......

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Anywhoo......I've found that if enough grease is used to kill twang and vibration then there is enough grease to make the poi unstable as the temperature shifts from a shooting session that lasts from the cool morning air to the hot afternoon air....(been there/done that)! Also, slopping a spring with goop to kill twang is a relatively short lived solution till the spring takes a kink which will tame the twang a bit. I've found that the only long term solution for my R9 spring twang is a tight fitting spring guide and minimal lubes. The reason "minimal lubes" is mentioned is because excess lube has a tendency to get pushed in front of the piston seal to diesel which in turn affects the consistency of the poi.

Which leads me to point number two which is barrel droop. How much does your Diana have? 4" to 10" more or less? It's a nice way of saying the barrel is bent.
I don't know about Diana but HW straightens their barrels before installing them onto their guns with a fixture like this........

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
For whatever reason most breakbarrel springers do have droop incorporated into them and some more than others. LOL....when I bought my springers from Beeman decades ago I used to chip in an extra dollar for the "scope barrel angle" option! My PERSONAL OPINION is that the droop is both mechanical and intentional. Mechanical because the angle of the barrel in relationship to the receiver is controlled by the precision of the pivot pin location in the receiver fork, the bore location in the barrel pivot block and the fit the pivot block face housing the breech seal and the receiver fork sealing surface. Only a few thousandths of difference between the fit of any of these "interfaces" affects the barrel angle relative to the receiver. Since the "built in breal barrel droop" is so common between different manufacturers I'm of the mind that deliberate droop is used to compensate for the normal tolerances of the barrel pivot geometry so the guns won't be shipped with "snoop" which would play havoc with the use of the factory iron sights. Anywhoo.......to date I haven't had a single HW springer that couldn't be sighted in using "scope adjustments" but I'm sure there are some.

They actually have posts on "barrel bending" with devices
Yup......I've been doing that for years, not to be able to zero my HW springers but to adjust the poi to within 1/2" at 30 yards and then use the optically centered scope to fine tune the poi to "dial out" the 1/2" needed.

I can tell you that these mounts seem to adjust themselves without being asked.
Yup....I messed with those abominations decades ago with an expensive a RWS "C" mount and a "B-Square" mount which used a gazillion tiny screws! Not only did the "adjust themselves" on my R10, it took a couple hours to set the things up only to have then "shoot loose". LOL....the main reason I started bending my barrels was experience with "adjustables"!

Most guys end up using a one piece droop mount. Ironically, most of these droop mounts are made in China, and then attached to their "German Quality" rifles. Your mount will slip unless you puzzle out stop pins, or have enough screws to hold it in place.
Humm....I find that a $15 one piece UTG mount works better than my $65 one piece BKL mount when it comes to staying put on the scope "rail"! I'm currently using the BKL however the UTG worked just fine! The issue with the UTG mount on my R9 with a heavy 30mm tube Optisan Viper scope is that the stop pin is rather small diameter and it can deform the stop pin hole as the scope/mount tries to slide rearward with the recoil of my R9. I have the same "slippage issue" with the $65 BKL mount unless I go through the hassle of "pre-adjusting" the spread of the mount clamp so it requires spreading the clamp a bit to get it to slide onto the R9 dovetail, then I torque down all base screws to 25 inch pounds. One benefit of the BKL mount that once "pre-adjusted" the mount will hold without the need for a stop pin so there is no danger of deforming the stop pin holes in the receiver.

If you attempt to really tighten it down, the mount screws often bust or strip out, so there's a learning curve.
Easy peasy with the cheap $15 UTG mounts.......use a torque driver and follow these directions......

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
I would warn the user of the double strap two piece BKL mounts that using 15 inch pounds of torque on those narrow top straps can damage a scope tube which is why I prefer the cheap UTG mounts with the wide top straps. Scope damaged with 15 inch pounds of torque on a BKL two piece mount.......

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Notice the destinctive BKL "double dents", yet I found that the scope would shift if only 10 inch pounds of torque were used on the narrow top straps.......

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
I do have to say that IF I lined my BKL one piece mount rings with cloth electrical friction tape the Viper will stay in place using 15 inch pounds of torque and the wider top straps of the one piece BKL doesn't damage the scope, however without lining the rings this happens.....

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Please keep in mind that this is just my opinion (rant). This is a hobby with constant tinkering to keep the guns running. Have you noticed that some of these guys list every gun they own at the bottom of their post? To me, this indicates that this is a hobby they are proud of, or perhaps they are searching for a rifle that will make them happy? Lastly, there are a few people on this form that are are promoting their products or services, and will post or reply with their own agenda in mind. Buyer be ware. FYI. Good luck my friend.
No harm/no foul, perhaps too cynical on your part since I'm not selling anything except personal opinion and it's worth exactly what you paid for it! LOL

hoffy43 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2015, 01:15:27 PM »

Good luck with the tune. IT feels good to grab the bull by the horns. Working on my guns myself makes the air gunning experience that much more satisfying. Of course I can't do everything, but what I can do I do and do enjoy doing it. Can't Waite to here the outcome. Don't hold back on the pictures

dsaavedra · « **Reply #28 on:** July 05, 2015, 09:12:39 AM »

Well after some research I found the clearish brown grease that is supplied with the Vortek kit is more of a spring dampening grease than an all around lubricant and I really should use something like moly paste to lube the piston and cocking slot and barrel pivot. So I'm going to order some of the Loctite moly paste from amazon (dont remember the exact model number but the msds specifies 65-100% moly so it should be fine) and lube and reassemble my gun next weekend.

Quick question, I know to put a thin smear of moly around the edge of the piston seal down onto the first inch or so of the piston, the last inch or so of the piston, the cocking slot/shoe, a thin coat on the outside of the spring, and the barrel pivot (going to put a tiny bit on the barrel detent to try and smooth that up too). Is there anywhere else I should be applying it to? Specifically asking about the inside walls of the compression tube, the spring guides (small black plastic top hat looking front guide and external white plastic rear guide of the Vortek kit) and the part that sticks out from the piston and catches the sear.

Interesting point about removing the barrel pivot sleeve with the barrel open vs closed. To be completely honest I cannot remember if I removed it with the barrel open or closed but I would bet I had it closed. I will be sure to reattach the barrel in the open position and see if that makes any difference. Thanks for that tip!

If moly is as messy as I have heard I probably won't have hands clean enough to take pics of much of the lubing and reassembly but I will definitely be taking some pics of how it shoots when I'm all done!

MarkinJHawkland · « **Reply #29 on:** July 05, 2015, 09:32:49 AM »

Yes typically the barrel is in place when using the spring compressor. I see your post where you said you made yours short and the barrel has to be removed to use it. The problem with that is that with the barrel in the closed position the detent spring applies pressure to the pivot. And with the barrel broke open the mainspring applies pressure to the cocking linkage. So there is pressure either way and reinstallation is difficult.

Normal disassembly would be to decompress and remove the mainspring. Then remove barrel (after breaking the action open so there is no pressure on the pivot) or the cocking linkage (because the cocking shoe needs to be out of the way to remove the piston). Then remove the piston. Assembly in reverse.

I believe your short spring compressor is making things harder for you.

Just my $.02,
Mark N

Brazos · « **Reply #30 on:** July 05, 2015, 10:40:44 AM »

Another alternative to buy moly paste is to get it from www.airrifleheadquarters.com. They sell everything you need. I have worked on a lot of 34's. There are now a dozen or more 34's owned by people at my range. I have tuned many of them. The first one I used only the lube supplied by Vortek. I quizzed Vortek before hand and the assured me it was the only lube I needed. That rifle is still going strong. Since then I have also used moly or used Krytox 226 (226 instead of the moly/tar combo). The 34 is very simple to work on. After the third 34 I worked on I stopped using a compressor. I found it a PITA. Now I just push down on the edge of a table. I don't even have to take the scope off. It's much faster and I feel it is safer as I can feel what is going on. Springs break. A stock 34 spring does not seem to last long. Don't be bummed about it when it goes. You can buy a new, better spring from Vortek or ARH for cheaper than shipping your rifle back to Uramex. You can swap it out quicker than you can box up your rifle and take it to the post office. When you are done your rifle will be better than when it was new. If you want to spend a few more dollars for the complete spring kit from Vortek or ARH it will be even better. There just aren't many parts to a 34. You can figure it out real quick.

MarkinJHawkland · « **Reply #31 on:** July 05, 2015, 10:42:20 AM »

Also I recommend Macarri Moly Paste from Air Rifle Headquarters. It has been used successfully on springers for decades.

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251484/42989.htm

HTH,
Mark N

Jtlittle · « **Reply #32 on:** July 05, 2015, 01:05:43 PM »

If you bought it from PA you can return it in 30 days no problems.

Petey · « **Reply #33 on:** July 05, 2015, 01:31:18 PM »

Quote from: Brazos on July 05, 2015, 10:40:44 AM

Another alternative to buy moly paste is to get it from www.airrifleheadquarters.com. They sell everything you need. I have worked on a lot of 34's. There are now a dozen or more 34's owned by people at my range. I have tuned many of them. The first one I used only the lube supplied by Vortek. I quizzed Vortek before hand and the assured me it was the only lube I needed. That rifle is still going strong. Since then I have also used moly or used Krytox 226 (226 instead of the moly/tar combo). The 34 is very simple to work on. After the third 34 I worked on I stopped using a compressor. I found it a PITA. Not I just push down on the edge of a table. I don't even have to take the scope off. It's much faster and I feel it is safer as I can feel what is going on. Springs break. A stock 34 spring does not seem to last long. Don't be bummed about it when it goes. You can buy a new, better spring from Vortek or ARH for cheaper than shipping your rifle back to Uramex. You can swap it out quicker than you can box up your rifle and take it to the post office. When you are done your rifle will be better than when it was new. If you want to spend a few more dollars for the complete spring kit from Vortek or ARH it will be even better. There just aren't many parts to a 34. You can figure it out real quick.

+1

Brazos · « **Reply #34 on:** July 05, 2015, 09:09:03 PM »

I guess to beat a dead horse is why would you spend $25-30 to ship a rifle back to Uramex to have them put in a new spring they sell for $15? It will come back with a new crappy spring. For the price of shipping buy a new, good spring and good lubes and make the rifle much better than new. A broken spring (a consumable part like tires on your car) is an oppertunity. Take advantage of it. The 34 is extremely simple to work on. You do not need a compressor. The 34 was my first rifle to take apart. I was scared to death I would die and never get it back together. I printed off everything I could find on the net to have in front of me. I watched every youtube video. Then I got the courage to do it and what a let down. I wasted so much time researching and printing &^^& off. They are so simple. I am glad for the experience though as I am not scared to take down any spring rifle now.

dsaavedra · « **Reply #35 on:** July 05, 2015, 09:18:59 PM »

Thanks for the tips everyone. Would there still be tension on the pivot if I just crack the barrel open when removing/inserting the pivot sleeve?

This is the moly paste I intend to purchase I have seen a few people on here say they use it with success, and the price per ounce seems unmatched (plus I have a Prime account so I can get free 2 day shipping). The MSDS says 65-100% moly, so it should work well for an air rifle.

Any input on which parts to apply the moly?

Brazos, I was the same way about taking rifles apart, thats why I put it off for over a year! But it really was truly simple and not scary at all, and now I am much more confident about working on rifles. I'm actually going to take apart my Beeman which stopped cocking a few weeks after I finally fixed the barrel.... it would shoot like 10" high, at first I thought it just needed to broken in but even after hundreds of shots it was still shooting way high. Turns out it came from the factory with a bent barrel which I didn't realize until well after the warranty expired so I decided I had nothing to lose by bending it back. It actually worked well and was quite accurate after I got it sighted in, then a few weeks later it wouldn't latch at the end of the cocking stroke....

I'm going to take it apart and see if I can find out whats wrong with it.

Brazos · « **Reply #36 on:** July 05, 2015, 11:32:29 PM »

As far as the lock tight moly goes you should send it back since it is Amazon prime. You can get a near lifetime supply from ARH for $8. Not to say what you ordered won't work. You just paid 2-1/2X as much as what you could have got it from ARH (and their standard cheap shipping gets to you in 2 days just like Amazon prime).
Yes there would be tension on the pivot sleeve as long as the spring is in. But you don't have to take the spring or piston out. Just take the 2 pins out and release the trigger unit. Then you can take the pivot sleeve out and moly it up.
This is why I stopped using a compressor on a 34. It is so easy to just take the stock off, leave the scope on, push down on the edge of a table with one hand and use a punch to easily push the pins out with the other hand. Then just swap springs, or whatever, and reverse the procedure.

MarkinJHawkland · « **Reply #37 on:** July 05, 2015, 11:33:15 PM »

I have tried the way you suggest and found the tension to be an issue when reassembling. But I have not tried in a long time so my memory could be in the way.......

Mark N

anuthabubba · « **Reply #38 on:** July 06, 2015, 12:53:19 AM »

Mark,

Just get somebody to push the pins out and back in while you concentrate on controlling the spring tension. Leave one punch in as a 'safety' until both pins are out. A 'set' spring will have less preload length going back together.

nced · « **Reply #39 on:** July 06, 2015, 09:26:01 AM »

"the sleeve inside the pivot was very snug and I was scared I was damaging something with the amount of force I had to apply to push it out."
Hummm this is a good bit of info for one who has never been inside a Diana but has had accuracy issues with the Chinese clones I bought with a similar pivot bolt arrangement. My latest attempt of making a cheap springer into a good shooter was a Remington Express that seems to be a hybrid HW/Diana design with "screw in a sleeve in a bore" pivot bolt arrangement like the Diana34. The main difference with the Remmy "screw in a sleeve in a bore" was the rather loose fitting sleeve. Since your Diana pivot sleeve was tight fitting, perhaps the Remmy loose fitting pivot sleeve is part of the reason for these awful 18 yard groupings........

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After some tinkering I actually got one good 18 yard group and I thought I solved the problems till I started shooting a second group noticing a poi shift after only 3 shots starting the next group!

These targets shot later show that the "good group" was indeed an anomaly!

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Here are a few R9 groups for comparison, all shot sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks at 18 yards.......

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Here's comparing CPLs to Crosman Destroyer groups........

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Anywhoo.....the Remmy is sitting in a corner right now so perhaps I'll revisit "turning scrap metal into a pot of gold" by making tighter fitting pivot parts.

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RWS 34 Spring Question - Is this normal??

Author Topic: RWS 34 Spring Question - Is this normal?? (Read 17011 times))