Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock



Author Topic: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock  (Read 29041 times - 1 votes) 
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Offline TC

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2014, 09:44:35 PM »
Awesome suggestion.  This alone is worth a try; "It takes out the loud "THWACK" you feel in your cheek on the stock."

Offline zmike

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2014, 05:13:09 PM »
what about using sorbothane instead of neoprene? last I heard it was one of the best vibration dampeners...

I think Ill have to try that, but first, a question: what thickness do you think the neoprene is eventually compressed to?
I don't think sorbothane would compress as much as neoprene...

Last question:how would you recommend attaching the dampening material to the metal? (unfortunately sorbo doesn't come with adhesive)
*********************************************************************************
Mike Hancock here:

RE: What thickness dose the "1/8th inch" neoprene compress to?  I'd say the thickness of a normal cardboard business card.  Some of the newer harder plastic laminated cards are a bit thinner. 

RE: Sorbothane -- It may be "THE" ticket!  TRY IT!!!  I tried cutting strips off of a Sims Vibration Lab slip on recoil pad.  They were about 3/8th inch thick and hardly crushed at all.  NO GOOD.  TOO THICK!  TOO MUCH schooching around when shot.

RE: How to get sorbethane to stick to wood stock so it stays in place.  I'd say cut your strips and fit them so your all ready to install, then spray the underside that goes against the wood very lightly with 3M spray glue.  You just need the soft bed to stay in place while you re-install the metal back into the stock.  The crush effect of tightening the stock screws holds it on place after that.

GOOD LUCK.  Let us know how sorbethane works for you. 
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airhawk

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2014, 09:08:26 PM »
ok this is gonna sound strange, but i used pieces of cut up yoga mats with duct tape and it worked really well. The only problem was that, due to lack of adhesive backing, there are now little strips of pink protruding out the sides of my gun -_-

when I looked at the place where the stock makes contact, I found that it had tiny grooves, and I think they are to minimize contact in synthetic stock guns.

so you think that sorbo would compress less so I should get it less than 1/8 inch? If I can I'll try multiple thicknesses. Also can spray glue be found at the hardware store?

I'll let you guys know when the 1/10 inch sorbo gets here from ebay lol
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 11:18:17 PM by airhawk »

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2014, 01:05:31 AM »
Ok here's another slightly strange idea, why not put some of your chosen dampening material on top of the piston? That way, when the piston slams into the end of the cylinder, some of the impact force would be absorbed lessening the forwards recoil. Because the pellet is propelled by the air in front of the piston, the gun would only lose as much power as air would fill the gap made by the rubber.
 I'm borrowing this idea from the world of airsoft, because airsoft guns operate on the same principles as airguns. In airsoft, this makes the gun much quieter and makes it last longer, BUT it can mess with the length of the piston also, which can be bad, because in airsoft, gears are used to cock the piston. In air rifles it is cocked by hand, so it should be fine.It looks like Crosman is using this idea in their np2. I can't really test this theory, though, because I've never taken apart my AG that completely, and I don't have a spring compressor :(

that'll be another project :)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 01:10:50 AM by airhawk »

Offline zmike

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2014, 04:18:40 PM »
RE:  Only wood stocks are mentioned. Would/should this neoprene bedding be needed with a synthetic stock.

"IF" your synthetic stock is loud and "clacky" in the ear that's against the stock lightninrod, soft bed it.  It will take that out and will not hurt accuracy.  The problem with synthetic stocks is they are so hollowed out there's not a lot of bedding surface inside to place the neoprene.  Good Luck!

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Offline BobbyHumphrey

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2014, 01:01:50 AM »
I bedded my WFH and it is much , much improved
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airhawk

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 02:41:02 AM »
Sorbo came from ebay  :D

will report on results as soon as I get a chance to try it
this is with 1/10 inch sorbo and on a crosman tr77
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 02:47:06 AM by airhawk »

lethalflight

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2014, 12:50:57 AM »
+1 on Jack O, sold my Dad on the 270 win as white tail lightning. I can't wait to bed my hatsan, 125 sniper. I hate not hold sensitivity. I'll be interested to see how this will coenside with my rubber spray tune. Thinking together, along with the rubber barrel donut you spoke of I, hope to have the quietest, most accurate 30fpe gas ram gun the world has ever none. Whoo hahaha...

Offline D14Jeff

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2014, 04:57:21 PM »
i've wondered if dynamat would be better for this ?

http://www.dynamat.com/

it's made to reduce noise by absorbing vibrations .........
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Offline gene_sc

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2014, 05:22:02 PM »
Great thread guys. Years ago I tried using Moon Gel for bedding an old Chinese air rifle.. I was thinking that the neopreme would be to thick but it looks like it works. Great job and I hope you all perfect this to help those who have difficulty with holding and shooting a springer off a bench rest.

In my test with Moon Gel, it seemed to really dampen the vibration which was what I was looking for. I personally never had and issue with shooting springers off bags, bench rest or off hand at that timie. So I was mostly impressed with the effect the Moon  Gel had on dampening vibration.

Anyways keep up the great work guys. Great read.

Gene

« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 05:24:51 PM by gene_sc »
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Offline Gertrude

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2014, 11:53:58 PM »
I've done both my RS2 Ram in .22cal, and my D48 in .22 cal. and am happy with the results.
I've also done 2 MM fully tuned Airhawks and am very pleased with those.

I just finished doing my buddies Beeman Mach 12.5 RS3.
It being a springer with 60 lbs of cocking force, I'm curious if the neoprene might not have enough density for the significant recoil.

Now with me having "build-a-better-mousetrap OCD disorder",... this got me to thinking...

 I'm thinking that the same or even better results might be achieved using Casting Rubber.

 My thought is,.... to lay in the Casting Rubber in the stock and then use a thin washer between the stock and the action temporarily, and then install the 3 bolt/screws to lightly secure the action to the stock as usual.

 Using the washers to establish a controlled "Gap" between the action and the stock, and allowing the casting rubber to cure.

Then once cured, (15 minutes or so), remove the action,.... remove the washers,.... and reassemble the action to the stock.

The casting rubber would then have a 100% perfect fit, .. it would then be slightly compressed, (due to the washers are now removed), and the rubber would have a greater density, and less chance of deteriorating, or completely compressing, like the neoprene may tend to do.

What are your thoughts on this idea ?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 12:21:25 AM by tri-5-ron »
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Offline TimmyMac1

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2014, 05:43:12 PM »
Was the gun I shot at the Youth FT day the ram .22? That gun was as good as any Chinese gun I've ever shot. It was so good it made me laugh. You sir have a way with China trigs. CDT no doubt but tuned to a really nice level. Did that have the bedding done when I shot it?
I think you should try the casting rubber. Let us know how it works.

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Offline Gertrude

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2014, 03:02:33 AM »
Was the gun I shot at the Youth FT day the ram .22? That gun was as good as any Chinese gun I've ever shot. It was so good it made me laugh. You sir have a way with China trigs. CDT no doubt but tuned to a really nice level. Did that have the bedding done when I shot it?
I think you should try the casting rubber. Let us know how it works.

TimmyMac1

Yes !,... the rifle you and Han's used at the 4H Youth FT Shoot, was soft bedded per yours and Mr. Hancock's suggestions using the 1/8th thick Neoprene.

And Yes,...The trigger was done by me, based on some internet searches, and adjusted per your recommendations, advise, and experienced wisdom.
 It was my first real attempt to fine tune a trigger, so I will take your compliments with great pride and humble appreciation.

Now for any others reading here,... this is where I get my 2.3 seconds of fame, gloating, and glory,...  in saying that I actually out-shot Tim at the kids 4H FT Shoot and I took top honors. (do you have any clue how cool I felt, putting a spanking on a former FT champion ? ? ?),...

 OK,... maybe it was a stretch to say "spanking", and my 2.3 seconds of fame are over now,.. (and with all due respect), I must confess a couple of pertinent points in the matter...

1- Tim was shooting my Chinese springer, that was soft bedded, and "trigger tuned" by me,... (a complete novice with no real experience),... wearing the cheap factory Beeman glass,.... and oh yeah,... he was shooting Off Hand.
 
2- I was shooting my completely customized, tricked out Mrod,.... (tuned and re-tuned by TIM !),... using a Bipod, Thumbhole Blaster Stock, and a 50mm SWF Mil-dot scope, (which was ALSO adjusted by Tim),... and I was mainly shooting Hunter Class, from a sitting position.

SOoooo,... I dunno,... but maybe I had a tiny bit of an advantage,.... and just MAYBE,..... it was not a really fair thing to suggest I "out-shot him that day",... (but what the heck,... I'll take what I can get). LOL!

 so there ya go,... that's my 2.3 seconds (of VERY thin) fame and glory ! WOO-HOooooo ! ! ! hahaha!

Tim and the entire CASA FT membership,(Big Thanks to Larry, Rick, Art, and ALL the rest of CASA Guys), who have been our GREATEST supporters, of my 4H clubs Youth Air Rifle Safety and Shooting Project.

 I can't express how appreciative we are, and how it would have never come together without their support. I am looking forward to another fun season this coming year.

now back to the original subject,...
I have come to own a couple of boxes of ** Repro-Rubber** brand, Metrologic grade, Form Casting, Rubber Compound.
 I did a test run of the stuff tonight, and I need to figure out how to fine tune my mixing/application methods before I can actually try it on a rifle.
 (M A N ! ! ! this stuff sets up fast,...too FAST) !

I'll try to get down to the shop soon, and show Tim what the stuff is, and together maybe we can figure out how to get it mixed, rolled, applied to the stock, action re-installed and snugged down,... in under the 1 1/2 minutes working time  :o ! ! !

besides, I need to get down there and drop off a little more cash with him,...
 cuz there ARE some more AG parts and goodies to buy ya KNOW !
 (Tim, get me a flat top piston ready for my 1377/2289 conversion) ;D  ;D  ;D

Good shootin' to all, and we'll let you know what progress we may make with the casting rubber compound stuff.

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Offline gene_sc

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2014, 06:39:19 AM »
I am really enjoying what you guys are discussing here. I dug up some old posts that I made years ago and  remembered the Chinese model that I was using for the soft bedding. It was the TF-89 .22. If I am not mistaken Beeman  and others were using this Chinese rifle as a base for newer models. One thing that I remember well was the trigger. You could absolutely tune that trigger to perfection if so inclined. But I used the Moon Gel on this model because it would rattle your teeth when shooting it the recoil and vibration was so harsh..:) I later detuned it to around 12 fpe using the Moon Gel as the bedding. I wish I had thought of the stuff you guys are using now back then. I really liked shooting it off the bench because it has such consistent accuracy.

Anyways carry on guys, this thread is amazing.

Gene
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 06:43:04 AM by gene_sc »
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Offline tehsquirrel

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 12:47:09 AM »
I have some of the neoprene and I'm going to do up my xs25 over the weekend or so as I change it over from synthetic to wood.  I haven't decided if I'll fool with the stock yet or not...  It would be an easy way to get some practice in. 
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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2014, 02:48:12 PM »
How to Soft Bed Spring Piston / Gas Ram Pellet guns.  (by Mike Hancock)
Purpose: Floats spring tube metal on a thin, mushy layer of Neoprene up off of the stock wood.
Result: Reduces felt vibration, allows BENCH RESTING on firm sandbags which aids accuracy!

Get 1/8th-inch thick Neoprene from E-Bay- $4.95 includes shipping. Adhesive backed material.
It's the principal of floating metal off the wood.  Use a box cutter and straight edge to cut 3/8th wide strips.
Peel paper off sticky back of neoprene strips. Single edge safety razor really helps get paper started off sticky back.
Place strips in bedding channel about 1/16 up from drop-off edge.  It will mush down and fill the gap. 
Put Two full length strips in channel (one on each side) leaving a gap back at the trigger from half way between trigger pins to the back of inletting. Small pieces fill back end of inletting leaving gap for cross pin and cut out to allow room for trigger group.
Full SOFT BEDDING COMPLETE Now you need to install the action into the wood.
Use "C" clamp to get front stock screws down far enough to start since they are now sitting on 1/8" of  neoprene. Make sure you don't strip the screws. This is especially tricky when you have cups fitted. Start front stock screw holes first. Then do trigger guard screws. 
INSTRUCTIONS AFTER BEDDING 

1.  Tighten all screws tight
2.  Let sit overnight
3.  Day 2 -- Morning -- Tighten Again
4.  Day 2 -- afternoon -- Tighten Again -- shoot 20
5.  Day three -- Tighten again -- DONE! 
6.  Periodically test screw tightness.

YOU HAVE A SOFT BEDDED PELLET GUN THAT WILL SHOOT SOFTER, QUIETER, AND MORE ACCURATELY.

YOU CAN HARD BENCH-REST YOUR  SPRING PISTON AND GAS RAM GUNS NOW! 
Principal Works for any GUN.   

All guns have different stock inletting and cut-outs.  Just put Neoprene on all wood surfaces where spring tube metal contacts the stock wood.
YOU WANT TO FLOAT THE METAL ON VERY THIN LAYER OF NEOPRENE SO IT'S NOT TOUCHING WOOD ANY LONGER. 

Mike has done this to the following models with equal success on all. TX 200 / HW 97K / HW 77 / R-9 / R-7 / HW 50
Webley / Benjamin NP's / etc.  He supplied Mac1 with this information so we could share it with everyone.

If you would like a 7250KB Word file with Pictures I can send you what Mike sent me. Just send an email to mac1airgun@gmail.com and Put "Soft Bed" in the subject. Large file no dial ups. I would be glad to forward you the 97 word document complete with pictures Mike took when doing the process to an R1 Beeman. He illustrates specific things he did to other models as well.

I've shot Mikes guns and it is a very nice discharge characheristic. Dead calm without tuning and majic with a good tune.

I'm not convinced it will eliminate the need for a soft hold to achieve the ultimate spring gun accuracy but Mike is Convinced he can now rest any springer and shoot good groups. I'd say he is onto something. It'll cost you only $5 to find out. Chump change.

TimmyMac1

I've been reading the recent threads on this subject and I notice you say neoprene rubber, but most respondents refer to neoprene "foam" rubber.  Where your original experiments done with rubber or foam rubber.  I can visualize differences of performance in both.  For example, rubber sheet might not have the same damping characteristic as foam sheet, but foam sheet might have very little if compressed very firmly as is require to keep stock screws from loosening on my NP. 

Obviously foam rubber may trap moisture in damp or humid environments, but the firmer black rubber may degrade and create a gooey mess to be cleaned up at some later date. 

Inquiring minds want to know. 

Offline TC

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2014, 04:33:47 PM »
I used foam rubber. Maybe that is why even after testing out to 30 yards I did not see any better groups.

Offline TimmyMac1

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Neopreme Strips
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2014, 01:08:35 PM »
This was NOT Foam. It was solid with adhesive backing. You can get 10 feet of the strips 1/2" wide for $20 or 3/4" wide for $30. Mike did this so long ago there is no $4.95 guy anymore. If you google Neopreme Strips you will find all kinds of products. Sticky back 1/8" thick can be used as sheet or strips as you'll need to be able to cut and trim it. I think 3/4" wide would be best. It costs about $1 per inch when you buy 10 feet.
http://rubbersheetroll.com/neoprene-rubber-strips-commercial-grade.htm

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Offline Sfttailrdr46

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2014, 01:45:19 PM »
 ;D You can buy the 2" wide at any decent HVAC supplier for about $15 and it is a 20 ft roll
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Offline twigboy

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Re: Soft Bedding Spring guns by Mike Hancock
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2015, 01:50:59 AM »
What hardness/density neoprene rubber should be used?  I see several different Durometer or Shore ratings.  Thanks.
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