RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit



Author Topic: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit  (Read 11953 times))

Offline TooJung2Die

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RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« on: January 25, 2014, 12:02:27 AM »
This RWS 45 is the air rifle that got me interested in the GTA. It sat unused for many years in it's case. I researched here and other forums about the original leather sealed 45's. I made a spring compressor and bought a new main spring from Air Rifle Headquarters. I got the recommended lubes, moly paste and spring tar. I mixed up a batch of silicone oil and neatsfoot oil for the leather piston seal. When I was done it felt like the old gun had a renewed life. The "kick" I remembered was back. It dieseled a bit then stopped. This was last Spring.

Last month I got an Alpha Chrony. I was very disappointed to learn the 45 was only clocking 510 fps with 8.3 gr Superdome. I took it apart a few more times trying to find the problem. The seal was original but it wasn't damaged and was nice and supple after the silicone/neatsfoot soaks. This gun was rated at 830 fps by RWS and considered a Magnum in it's day. Something was seriously wrong.

Some may call it sacrilegious but I decided to convert the leather piston seal to something modern. Since the compression cylinder walls are mirror smooth I decided to get an o-ring conversion kit from Vortek.
http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/Seals-Tuning-Parts/Diana-Piston-Seal
I got the Proseal28 as a backup in case the O-Ring28 didn't fit.

I was very nervous when I put the piston in the drill press and began drilling out the rivet that held on the leather seal. What if this doesn't work?!? There will be no going back! The rivet was soft and easy to drill out. The hole left behind was .200" the right size for a M6x1.0 tap. I got a M6x1.0 countersunk head screw and filed the head down until it fit inside the dovetail adapter. I kept the metal washer and black plastic washer that were under the leather seal. The o-ring assembled height is only slightly shorter than the leather seal assembly. I figure I gained a little piston stroke. I put it together with Loctite blue on the screw threads.

I lubed the cylinder and o-ring with Krytox GPL 106 oil. The o-ring fit perfectly. I was nervous before the first shots over the Chrony. The first shot with a 8.3 gr Superdome clocked at 840 fps, zero dieseling. That proved to be the average of the first 15 shots with a 10 spread. I can't wait to shoot it some more and see what other pellets do. I'm hoping it will break in at an even higher velocity.

I can only conclude the leather seal was leaking. It looked good and felt tight in the cylinder to me, tighter than the o-ring in there now. The "kick" is gone and it gained over 300 fps in velocity. The piston must have been slamming into the end of the cylinder. Marks on the old seal mount seem to indicate that. Some may think I ruined a classic air rifle but I'm happy to have a shooter that surpasses it's original design specs.

Photos: 1 leather seal, 2-3 o-ring conversion kit.



« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 10:57:31 AM by TooJung2Die »
  • Harrisburg, PA
Diana RWS 34 Classic T06
Diana RWS 45 (1981)
Diana RWS 52 (1992)
Crosman 101 (1945-50)
Crosman 118 (1952-54)
Crosman 760 (1975)
Crosman 2100 (2004)
Sheridan Blue Streak (1976)
Daisy No 25 (1956)
Remington Summit Fury Titan
Ruger Air Hawk
B3-3

Offline nced

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Re: RWS 45 leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 09:28:02 AM »
Thanks for the post/review....very interesting! Years ago I oring sealed my leather sealed $19.95 Cummins Truckload sale Chinese B3 (hardly a classic) and picked up over 100fps velocity. Here is a "before" pic of the B3 leather seal........


Here is a pic after some piston cleanup and oring sealing.......


Those were the days when I used "tar and molly" for airgun lubing. A couple seasons ago I "discovered" Krytox GPL 205 and Ultimox 226 paste in Dec 2012 and have been lubing all of my R9 internals with the stuff and they do work well. I was interested to find that you've also used the Krytox GPL 105 oil. Recently I also decided to try the Krytox oil instead of the grease and so far the stuff has worked VERY well for lubing the piston seal (both oring and the new style factory R9 seal) and I even went so far as to lube the spring guide with the stuff. My spring guides are tight fitting Delrin and the Krytox 105 oil seems to be a perfect lube for a tight spring guide and piston seals.

So far I've tested the Dupont Krytox GPL205 grease, the international version Ultimox 226 which contains extra wear and anti-corrosion additives, and now the Dupont Krytox GPL 105 oil and all have worked splendidly!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Mods/Ultimox226.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Mods/KrytoxGPL105oz.jpg

For me anyway.....gone are the diesel prone black staining molly lubes!

 

Offline TooJung2Die

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Re: RWS 45 leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 11:02:17 AM »
So far I've tested the Dupont Krytox GPL205 grease, the international version Ultimox 226 which contains extra wear and anti-corrosion additives, and now the Dupont Krytox GPL 105 oil and all have worked splendidly!
For me anyway.....gone are the diesel prone black staining molly lubes!

Hear Hear! Thanks, Ed. You are a big influence on my decision to go with an o-ring and Krytox. I read your posts about o-ring piston seals and Krytox with interest. You have the advantage of access to machine tools I do not have though.

I do not use Krytox 105, I use 106. Probably very similar. I get Krytox 106 on my job, it's used in medical devices on bearings that operate under very high heat and pressure. I still use moly paste on spring ends. I have gotten away from using velocity-robbing spring tar. I also like moly paste mixed with Mobil1. I keep both of these lubes away from the piston seal and may we never experience dieseling again!

I got a kick out of seeing your o-ring B3 piston. You must've gotten lucky and had a pretty nice compression tube to begin with. The one I have was badly rusted and pitted when new, right out of the box. I honed and polished it until it was oversize but some pits still remain. I used a ARH Tesla seal and gained more than 150 fps over the original synthetic B3 seal.

Are you experimenting with dry lubes like molybdenum disulphide or tungsten disulphide?

 
  • Harrisburg, PA
Diana RWS 34 Classic T06
Diana RWS 45 (1981)
Diana RWS 52 (1992)
Crosman 101 (1945-50)
Crosman 118 (1952-54)
Crosman 760 (1975)
Crosman 2100 (2004)
Sheridan Blue Streak (1976)
Daisy No 25 (1956)
Remington Summit Fury Titan
Ruger Air Hawk
B3-3

Offline White Eagle

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Re: RWS 45 leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2014, 11:10:29 AM »
Jon, thanks for that post.  I had a 45 once, and someday hope to either get the same one back from my friend I sold it to, or find another.  That conversion sounds like the way to go.  Congratulations a job well done! 8)

Ed, my 34 is still running strong on the Ultimox 226.  No dieseling, and smooth as silk.  I recently installed a new JM spring and seal in a friend's 34, and learning from my first overhaul, used the Ultimox a little more sparingly.  The results were outstanding!  Thanks again for your help last year when I replaced the spring and seal in my 34. ;D
  • West Virginia
THIS IS MY AIR RIFLE.   There are many like it, but this one is mine...

RWS/DIANA 34 T06 CLASSIC .22 "Schatzi"
DAISY MODEL 96 (MY FIRST AIR GUN, CIRCA 1967!)
DAISY 880S .177
BENJI 397P (1994 VINTAGE)

Offline nced

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Re: RWS 45 leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2014, 11:56:42 AM »
So far I've tested the Dupont Krytox GPL205 grease, the international version Ultimox 226 which contains extra wear and anti-corrosion additives, and now the Dupont Krytox GPL 105 oil and all have worked splendidly!
For me anyway.....gone are the diesel prone black staining molly lubes!

Hear Hear! Thanks, Ed. You are a big influence on my decision to go with an o-ring and Krytox. I read your posts about o-ring piston seals and Krytox with interest. You have the advantage of access to machine tools I do not have though.

I do not use Krytox 105, I use 106. Probably very similar. I get Krytox 106 on my job, it's used in medical devices on bearings that operate under very high heat and pressure. I still use moly paste on spring ends. I have gotten away from using velocity-robbing spring tar. I also like moly paste mixed with Mobil1. I keep both of these lubes away from the piston seal and may we never experience dieseling again!

I got a kick out of seeing your o-ring B3 piston. You must've gotten lucky and had a pretty nice compression tube to begin with. The one I have was badly rusted and pitted when new, right out of the box. I honed and polished it until it was oversize but some pits still remain. I used a ARH Tesla seal and gained more than 150 fps over the original synthetic B3 seal.

Are you experimenting with dry lubes like molybdenum disulphide or tungsten disulphide?


 

I use 106. Probably very similar.
The only difference between the 105 and 106 Krytox is the viscosity. If you look at this chart you'll see that the first digit of the number denotes either oil (1) or grease (2). The second digit denotes the grade standard (0), extreme pressure (1), anti corrosion (2), the third digit denotes the iso grade of oil used (0=5), (1=7), (2=15), (3=32), (4=68), (5=150), (6-220), and (7=460). So the "106" oil is about twice as thick as "105".

 You must've gotten lucky and had a pretty nice compression tube to begin with.
Yep.....I had bought a couple B3s at $19.95 each and swapped out the best parts. I was indeed surprised with the roundness and finish of the compression tubes (not the pistons though) and all I needed to do was "sweeten" the ID for the oring with some oiled 500 grit silicon carbide paper. Here is a pic showing the "after cleaning up the piston on the lathe" and you can see from the compression tube under the piston that it was in surprisingly good shape....


Are you experimenting with dry lubes like molybdenum disulphide or tungsten disulphide?
Funny you should ask because a while back I bought a pound of 5 micron molly powder and messed with TRYING to formulate my own mix. I was using dry graphite powder as my piston seal lube at that time so I thought the molly powder would do the same and work better.......it didn't, the graphite worked better as an oring lube. Then I played with mixing the molly powder with 100% silicone oil and again, it didn't work so good. After that I "discovered" the Krytox line of lubes and have been using them since!

Offline TooJung2Die

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 12:34:23 PM »
I got around to testing some other pellets last weekend. I'm very pleased with this o-ring conversion kit. I was hoping to restore the gun to original performance. Now the old 45 surpasses my expectations and original 830 fps velocity specs. It has never shot or sounded like this before. It's quieter. The addition of a new GRTMSS mainspring from Air Rifle Headquarters didn't hurt. The original spring had collapsed after 30 years.

RWS Superdome 8.3 gr: Average 837, High 842 (very accurate)
RWS Diabolo Basic 7.0 gr: Average 892, High 900 (several broke 900)
CPHP 7.9 gr: Average 834, High 842 (fliers but accuracy approaching Superdome)

Now I'm curious about the ProSeal28 parachute seal I bought with the kit. Which is better, parachute seal or o-ring seal?
  • Harrisburg, PA
Diana RWS 34 Classic T06
Diana RWS 45 (1981)
Diana RWS 52 (1992)
Crosman 101 (1945-50)
Crosman 118 (1952-54)
Crosman 760 (1975)
Crosman 2100 (2004)
Sheridan Blue Streak (1976)
Daisy No 25 (1956)
Remington Summit Fury Titan
Ruger Air Hawk
B3-3

Offline makinchips

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2014, 07:41:33 PM »
After reading this thread I ordered an oring conversion and hope to assemble my 45 soon. Does your 45 have any spring twang?
  • Bucks Co Pa

Offline TooJung2Die

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 08:04:14 PM »
After reading this thread I ordered an oring conversion and hope to assemble my 45 soon. Does your 45 have any spring twang?

No spring twang. I'm using the original spring guides and no spring tar.
  • Harrisburg, PA
Diana RWS 34 Classic T06
Diana RWS 45 (1981)
Diana RWS 52 (1992)
Crosman 101 (1945-50)
Crosman 118 (1952-54)
Crosman 760 (1975)
Crosman 2100 (2004)
Sheridan Blue Streak (1976)
Daisy No 25 (1956)
Remington Summit Fury Titan
Ruger Air Hawk
B3-3

Offline garczar6

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2014, 01:55:36 PM »
I have a '85 model 35. will vortek seal kit fit this gun?
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Offline makinchips

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 07:05:02 PM »
what should the spring be lubed with?
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Offline TooJung2Die

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2014, 09:47:37 PM »
I have a '85 model 35. will vortek seal kit fit this gun?

It might if the compression tube is 28mm ID. Neither the 35 or 45 are listed as compatible with this kit but I measured my compression tube and it is exactly 28mm. I can't find a parts diagram for your model 35 so I don't know how the piston seal is attached. The Vortek kit is made for guns that have the seal assembly held in place by a screw. I had to drill and tap the 45's piston for the seal kit to work. Ask Vortek, they should know and will be happy to assist you.

what should the spring be lubed with?

Oh no, I am not opening that can of worms!  ;)
General consensus around here can be found in this link. http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA2/library/Springer_Airgun_Lubing.pdf
You are free to lube any way you please. Try a search for "spring lube", you'll find lots of answers. Your mileage may vary. :)

  • Harrisburg, PA
Diana RWS 34 Classic T06
Diana RWS 45 (1981)
Diana RWS 52 (1992)
Crosman 101 (1945-50)
Crosman 118 (1952-54)
Crosman 760 (1975)
Crosman 2100 (2004)
Sheridan Blue Streak (1976)
Daisy No 25 (1956)
Remington Summit Fury Titan
Ruger Air Hawk
B3-3

Offline bart the fart

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 11:25:52 PM »
Gotta love the GTA, the amount of info flowing back and forth is awesome.
Thanks for the thread
  • Santa Rosa, CA

Offline bbv13

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2014, 11:19:53 PM »
I don't have a problem with the upgrade you did to the piston seal because you made it better. I don't know if old or antique air rifles are going to have any value beyond what they have today? The one thing I do know is they will have no value if they don't shoot. I think you did good and that air rifle will be shooting for decades.

I have a question for you. I may have asked you this before. I'm probably going to have to tear down the Diana model 35 I have. What did you run into when you removed the trigger? I have read some about the model 35 I have and the three ball bearings in the trigger. Did the trigger on your rifle have three ball bearings and how hard was it to take apart and put back together?

Bryan
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 02:02:53 AM by bbv13 »
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b24gun

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 01:11:30 AM »
I don't have a problem with the upgrade you did to the piston seal because you made it better. I don't know if old or antique air rifles are going to have any value beyond what they have today? The one thing I do know is they will have no value if they don't shoot. I think you did good and that air rifle will be shooting for decades.

I have a question for you. I'm probably going to have to tear down the Diana model 35 I have. What did you run into when you removed the trigger? I have read some about the model 35 I have and the three ball bearings in the trigger. Did the trigger on your rifle have three ball bearings and how hard was it to take apart and put back together?

Bryan
http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1227047934/last-1227241783/Diana+48-52++T01+trigger+disassembly-assembly++%28picture+warning%29

Here ya go... ;)

Offline bbv13

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 02:06:17 AM »
I don't have a problem with the upgrade you did to the piston seal because you made it better. I don't know if old or antique air rifles are going to have any value beyond what they have today? The one thing I do know is they will have no value if they don't shoot. I think you did good and that air rifle will be shooting for decades.

I have a question for you. I'm probably going to have to tear down the Diana model 35 I have. What did you run into when you removed the trigger? I have read some about the model 35 I have and the three ball bearings in the trigger. Did the trigger on your rifle have three ball bearings and how hard was it to take apart and put back together?

Bryan
http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1227047934/last-1227241783/Diana+48-52++T01+trigger+disassembly-assembly++%28picture+warning%29

Here ya go... ;)

That's perfect and what I need to see before I tear my rifle down. Thank you for the pictures and information.
Bryan
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Offline TooJung2Die

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2014, 11:43:02 AM »
I don't have a problem with the upgrade you did to the piston seal because you made it better. I don't know if old or antique air rifles are going to have any value beyond what they have today? The one thing I do know is they will have no value if they don't shoot. I think you did good and that air rifle will be shooting for decades.

I don't have a problem either. I had to do something. The gun was performing very poorly. I had it out for an extended shooting session yesterday and noted another benefit of putting in this seal conversion kit. The gun no longer requires any warm up shots before it settles. It was shooting right where I had sighted it in the last time. I set up plastic army men from the 99 cent store all over the back yard up to 30 yards out and had a great time "terminating" them. :) I find that if I set up my sight-in target at 50 feet it shoots almost perfectly flat out to 30 yards. The old 45 is back!
  • Harrisburg, PA
Diana RWS 34 Classic T06
Diana RWS 45 (1981)
Diana RWS 52 (1992)
Crosman 101 (1945-50)
Crosman 118 (1952-54)
Crosman 760 (1975)
Crosman 2100 (2004)
Sheridan Blue Streak (1976)
Daisy No 25 (1956)
Remington Summit Fury Titan
Ruger Air Hawk
B3-3

Offline bbv13

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 06:16:24 PM »
I may have a similar decision to make very soon.

Bryan
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Offline MikeSSS

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2014, 04:29:15 PM »
This is a very interesting thread, for several reasons.

Lubes.

I have a Diana 50, sold as a Winchester 450, it probably has a leather piston and needs some attention.

Then there is the B3, it is time to work on that one again, it has a synthetic seal and could probably use a new one as well as polishing the inside of the compression tube, bending the barrel a bit so its POI happens when the sights are centered, trying to make the shot cycle smoother and things like that.

Ed, thanks for posting the B3 pictures, they are always a big help.


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Offline makinchips

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2014, 08:44:46 PM »
Note to all doing this conversion. An M6x1. Flathead screw can be found at most hardware stores. I happened to tap mine to 1/4"-28 and couldn't fine a capscrew locally.
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Offline rws45user

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Re: RWS Diana leather to o-ring conversion kit
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 08:58:46 AM »
I have a 1987 45 I think its time to make a seal  change . I'm going to give this a try . Do you think I should change the spring as well . If so can you give me the Vortek part number of the spring I should get .  I found this video on how to remove the spring with a quick grip      ://youtu.be/4JQXmqa2Uj0      add http   before the :    or go to youtube and type in   Compressing Spring on a Crosman Venom Nitro-piston rifle
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 05:12:26 PM by rws45user »

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