How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank



Author Topic: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank  (Read 20171 times))

Offline cgish

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • yes
  • Real Name: Cody
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2018, 05:26:54 PM »
Thank you Bob. That helps a lot.

I was able to follow all of that except for one thing. What is the 53,700 yield strength based on? Is there an industry standard like 'all pressure strength calculations are based on 0.5 inches of new material at sea level' or something of this nature?

Thank You,
Cody
  • Midwest USA

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2018, 07:47:52 PM »
No, the tensile strength (ultimate and yield) is the force per square inch of cross section required to make the material fail (ultimate) or stretch (yield in a non-elastic manner).... If the yield strength is 53,700 psi, that means if you have a 1 inch square bar of 1018 steel, and you clamp one end and hang 53,700 lbs. of weight on the other, it should start to stretch, and when the load is removed not return to its original length.... ie it "yields"....

In theory, if you hang less than 53,700 lbs. on it (and the material behaves as it should), it should spring back to its original length when the load is removed.... ie elastic deformation.... Each material will have a different "ultimate" and "yield" strength....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline cgish

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • yes
  • Real Name: Cody
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2018, 08:05:26 PM »
Okay. That makes sense.

So metal fatigue in this scenario would be a weight less than the ultimate or yield weights that eventually erodes or overwhelms (via force applied over the passage of time) the material's ability to spring back into its original shape?

Thank you for your time and knowledge.

Cody
  • Midwest USA

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2018, 07:47:42 PM »
Metal fatigue is caused by repeated cycling, and with steel it is not an issue providing the stress applied is less than 50% of the yield strength.... Since you are designing with over a 4:1 safety margin, there is no possibility of fatigue lowering the tensile strength to the point of failure, even with an infinite number of cycles.... This is the advantage of designing with such large safety margins....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline dawg11

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 53
  • yes
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2018, 01:35:20 AM »
Ok so this sounds like a real cool idea , so  I got a Ninja 68 c.i. Carbon fiber tank with a Pro V2 regulator . I want to take the pressure up to 2700 - 2800 psi , for use refueling my Marauder .25 and Quackenbush .45 , in the field . The problem is the upstream burst disc . Obviously the 1800 psi one has to go , but as high as I'm going 3000 psi isn't enough and I cant find 3500 anywhere . Will 4000psi be to high ?
  • Salem , Or

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2018, 01:18:53 PM »
The Pro V2 regulator, from what I remember, is the one with the rotating feature on the bonnet, is it not?.... Ninja have stated that style of regulator, since the bonnet is retained only by a snap ring instead of threads, should not have the output burst disc replaced with one higher than the 1800 psi one fitted by Ninja.... To answer your question, the "unified burst discs" used on HPA tanks and regulators only come in 1800, 3000, 5000 and 7500 psi ratings.... Sometimes in England you can find a 4500 psi rating.... but I have never heard of 3500 or 4000 psi burst discs....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline dawg11

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 53
  • yes
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2018, 09:26:34 PM »
Yes the Ninja Pro V 2  IS the one that top rotates on . So it seems I bought the wrong regulator , I found a couple 3500 burst discs on scuba web sites even found a 3700 on ebay But I dont know what size the hole in the regulator is ( still waiting for the brown truck to bring it ) Ninja makes one that has an output of 3000 , they use a 5000 disc but that would be bad news for my guns if I have a failure .
  • Salem , Or

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2018, 09:37:46 PM »
Burst discs are made for 5/3rd the working pressure of a tank, which is the Hydrotest pressure.... AFAIK, SCUBA burst discs are replacable discs, and the holder for them is completely different than HPA unified discs.... The HPA burst discs are 3/8"-24 straight thread, and the disc seals on the copper end.... the holes in the regulator for them are NOT 1/8"-27 NPT pipe threads, although they look similar....

Bob
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 09:43:11 PM by rsterne »
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline dawg11

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 53
  • yes
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2018, 09:56:02 PM »
Bob , THANK YOU , for the information . I have no doubt that you saved me from having an accident , that IF I survived , my wife would have demanded that my glorified bb guns , as she calls them , had to go . she'd do that anyway IF she knew what they really cost .

Wish there was mention at the beginning of this thread NOT TO USE A NINJA V2 . would have saved me from buying one . Because if it hadn't been for having to ask about burst disc's , I would have followed the instructions and powered up the V2 and we all know how that would have ended .
  • Salem , Or

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2018, 10:31:54 PM »
Well, snap rings are actually capable of handling a large shear load.... but I do remember asking Ninja, and they nixed the idea of increasing the output burst disc....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Doug Wall

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 858
  • yes
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2018, 08:17:54 AM »
I have never used one, but Tim @ Mac1 Airguns sells this unit, with a slide check, and says it is good to 2000 psi....

http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/reoute.htm

You do need some way to bleed off the pressure downstream of the regulator, I made a bleed valve like this....



There is a Foster on the end of the flex hose where I attach my gauge.... I also use a "tiny" tank so that I don't waste air when testing.... You can see it in the middle of this photo with the regulator attached....



Bob

Bob. I like your attachment of the scuba yoke fill adapter to the "paintball" tank valve, and have been thinking about doing something exactly like that. What is the connection in between? did you machine a flat disk w/ o ring to 1/8 npt to fit into the paintball valve?
  • Hilton, NY

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2018, 01:09:14 PM »
That was an interim setup because I didn't know how to build a bleed valve at the time, so I used the bleed valve in the SCUBA yoke.... The adapter was turned from a piece of aluminum bar, with an O-ring like on a SCUBA valve on one end, and a 1/8" NPT tapped hole on the side, with a pipe nipple between than and the ASA valve.... The knob on the SCUBA yoke tightened against a dimple in the other end of the aluminum bar.... It's big and bulky compared to just fitting a bleed valve to the side of an ASA valve like in the photo above it....

The "tiny tank" need be nothing more than a piece of steel or aluminum drilled and tapped either 5/8"-18NF or 18mm x 1.5mm (depending on the regulator threads) and with a recess to hold the appropriate sized O-ring.... The remaining wall thickness must be strong enough to withstand tank pressure with a 3:1 minimum safety margin, of course.... I actually use my "tiny tanks" when tuning a regulated PCP so that I don't have to dump all the HPA in a large tank during the process....



The digital gauge allows for measuring the pressure drop in the plenum accurately during tuning to determine the efficiency.... There is a check valve in the male foster, and a bleed valve, in the mounting block for the digital gauge....
Bob
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 01:16:26 PM by rsterne »
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Austringer

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 249
  • yes
  • Real Name: Troy
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2019, 04:42:08 PM »
OK, so I'm not sure this is directly related, but I will post anyway. I recently bought a 48ci ninja 3000/800 hpa bottle. My plan was to use it as a cheap source of spare air for refilling my 13ci 3000/1500 bottles in the field (yes, very limited refills I know). I shimmed the regulator with just one belville washer which brought the output up to full psi (3000). I use an asa valve on the 48ci bottle coupled directly to a slide check to release pressure then to a standard foster fitting to fill the 13ci tank on the gun. Problem is after making a couple fills, the small oring in the top of the 48ci bottle valve blows out making it impossible to shut off the air after I make a fill to my smaller bottle.

I know this is an unusual way to try and fill in the field, but I don't want to buy a $300 4500 psi fill tank if I dont have to. Any ideas on how to make this work? Or any other inexpensive ways to refill a small 3000/1500 psi bottle in the field? Please..I understand the inefficiency of filling a depleted 3000 psi bottle from another 3000 psi bottle of only somewhat larger size. I'm just playing and trying to find a way to leave the pump at home when I'm ground squirrel hunting.

Thanks
Troy
  • Redding, CA
Benjamin Discovery, 22
Benjamin Marauder, 25
QB78, inverted Ninja tank, 22, 30+fpe
QB78, 2 plenum, Ninja tank, 22, 30 fpe
QB79, Ninja tank, SSG, 22, 29 fpe
Discovery Bullpup...in the works
1955 Benjamin pumper (dads gun)

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2019, 05:13:04 PM »
Using an ASA valve at 3000 psi is not advised.... They are designed for 850 psi, and at much over about 1200, they get VERY difficult to shut off.... I would imagine that is what is blowing your O-ring out.... The proper way would be to replace the regulator on your 48 CI tank with a valve equipped with a bleed valve so that after filling your 13 CI tank, you close the valve on the 48 CI tank, and use the bleed valve to bleed the air from the hose connecting the two.... That will enable you to safely disconnect the female Foster from your 13 CI tank....

Joe Brancato may be able to supply you with a valve to fit the 48 CI tank (it should have 5/8"-18 NF threads). You could also try Best Fittings in England.... Here is an example, you can also get the same kit with gauge for a bit more money....

https://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shop/airgun-charging-equipment/cylinder-accessories/mini-cylinder-vale-assembly-day-tripper-valve/

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Austringer

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 249
  • yes
  • Real Name: Troy
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2019, 05:27:05 PM »
I figured there  was a good reason why other guys weren't already doing this. Guess I'll have to find another way.

Thank you Bob!

Troy
  • Redding, CA
Benjamin Discovery, 22
Benjamin Marauder, 25
QB78, inverted Ninja tank, 22, 30+fpe
QB78, 2 plenum, Ninja tank, 22, 30 fpe
QB79, Ninja tank, SSG, 22, 29 fpe
Discovery Bullpup...in the works
1955 Benjamin pumper (dads gun)

Offline Back_Roads

  • ???
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 3808
  • Sentry 702-3 .22 40 FPE W/ 30 gr. BBT FN
    • https://www.facebook.com/pg/longshot/about/
  • Real Name: James Seiler
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2019, 10:25:14 PM »
 I have done that but used a 2000 psi out put pressure, in my case I put the reg and valve with coil hose and side check on an Air Force Escape bottle, then coupled to the bottle on the Escape. This psi matched the sweet spot on my tune and gives me 2 x the air for more shots in the sweet spot.


https://www.amazon.com/4500PSI-Regulator-Pressure-2000PSI-paintball/dp/B06XBV3GRP
  • Wisconsin Collins ;Hunters Paradise; Theres a Sign in town to prove it :)
We Got The Guns !

Offline Austringer

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 249
  • yes
  • Real Name: Troy
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2019, 02:54:07 AM »
James. At 2000 psi output, is the ASA valve hard to turn off?
  • Redding, CA
Benjamin Discovery, 22
Benjamin Marauder, 25
QB78, inverted Ninja tank, 22, 30+fpe
QB78, 2 plenum, Ninja tank, 22, 30 fpe
QB79, Ninja tank, SSG, 22, 29 fpe
Discovery Bullpup...in the works
1955 Benjamin pumper (dads gun)

Offline rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 21000
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2019, 12:28:56 PM »
It depends entirely on the ASA, mostly on the diameter of the stem where the O-ring is on the handle.... The bigger that is, the harder it is to turn.... I have had ASA valve that were difficult at 1200 psi, and others that were (barely) acceptable at 2000 psi.... Used as an "on-off" valve, the way they are intended, is entirely different than trying to get fine control when filling a gun without danger of overfilling it.... Having a valve that is hard to shut off, and difficult to modulate, is the LAST thing you want....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Back_Roads

  • ???
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 3808
  • Sentry 702-3 .22 40 FPE W/ 30 gr. BBT FN
    • https://www.facebook.com/pg/longshot/about/
  • Real Name: James Seiler
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2019, 10:58:29 AM »
 I use the valve in a teather situation, so I shoot it down to a lower pressure before closing the valve.
  • Wisconsin Collins ;Hunters Paradise; Theres a Sign in town to prove it :)
We Got The Guns !

Offline mackeral5

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1042
  • yes
  • Real Name: Mike D
Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2019, 05:27:38 PM »
Thank you Mr Sterne.  I found one of your posts on another forum that helped.   From way back in 2010.  the only difference is when I used .054 shim as the post mentioned I never found the setpoint before blowing a 3k burst disc.  I used .022 shim and ended up right at 2200psi.  If it proves to be unstable I'll try one of those suggested above. 

Copied and pasted from your post on Airgunhome:


First of all, it is necessary to explain what was inside the 2000 psi regulator.... When I pulled it apart, I discovered that there were two different thicknesses of shims and two different thicknesses of Belleville Washers (also known as Disc Springs).... The shims were in a stack in the bottom of the regulator housing.... In my regulator, there were two 0.005" shims and two 0.022" shims.... totalling 0.054" of shims.... My regulator was basically right at 2000 psi when checked with a gauge from a Hill pump which has 100 psi increments....  Cool

The disc springs which were on the stem of the piston consisted of a 0.022" thick disc spring on each end, and a total of ten 0.032" thick disc springs arranged in a "single stack" arrangement.... The total stack looked like this:

|| || ) ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( (


Link to the post:  http://www.airgunhome.com/agforum/viewtopic.php?t=4564

Bumping this one back to the top.  I used this stack again today when setting up a 500cc carbon bottle from Aliexpress.  This time it required .066 of shim to achieve 2200psi.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 05:43:04 PM by mackeral5 »
  • Smiths Station AL

GTA - What's been your success with air gun target practice?