Piston seal lube. Has there been any change???

[kevinbrian]

I have home tuned plenty of HW guns. I just buy them new and then 'have at it'. It's my hobby. It's waht I like to do. I have always had those inclinations. And probably always will.  I have always used ARH Moly paste.....just a smear behind the seal...none on the face. I am presently playing with an HW95K in 20 cal.  The spring wire is .128. It is 29 coils. It is spaced on the rear guide about two nickels width.  I am using a ARH hornet seal. I am getting 810 fps average wth 11.6 grain FTT's. Not bad. 
  But I wonder one thing.  Does anyone use anything else as a piston seal lube??? Something...say.....a bit slicker.  My piston is buttoned so there is no metal to metal during the cocking and firing stroke.
   This question always seems to tempt several to ask: "WHY CHANGE??? If it' working why change???"   Answer:  Why not? Why can't i try new technique to see if I can optimize things a bit more?
  And to the nice airgunners out there who have entertained the same question......I appreciate you kind responses. I am just in the mood to try new stuff. I have a new can of ARH moly if I mess up. I have acetone and other volatiles available to clean out the tube and all components.  I just feel like experimenting today and am hoping that if anyone has, and with success, they'll share a hint or two with me.  I appreciate all responses.

[robert w]

not that im aware of yet

[JimL911]

Ed Canoles over on the Yellow is trying straight moly powder. No other lube inside.

[Bryan Heimann]

It makes sense to me that, with the piston buttoned properly and no metal on metal, there are probably a lot of options available to use as lube.  I hope that Gene will chime in on this one, about the superlube with ptfe. I don't know enough about it to recommend it, all I've ever lubed a gun with is moly or plain white lithium grease, and ARH moly is my favorite thing.

[Kailua]

This my understanding of what I have read.  A spring piston cylinder should be cross hatched with a 400 grit and not high polished.  For the reason that the Superlube with PTF as Bryan had mentioned will adhere better in the cylinder.  So when applying the Superlube it should be dry wiped off as much possible.  And the ARH moly paste on the piston seal is the only moly paste recommended.

[Mark 611]

Kailua let me ask, because I have not tried a light film of superlube then wiping it off on the piston seal then covering it with moly, makes no sense to me but I've got to ask! my experience with SL is it migrates past the piston seal, I understand your theory but have you tried this experiment with and with out the superlube and noticed any real difference in performance?

[Kailua]

Sorry if I was not clear.  My understanding the superlube was to prime the cylinder not applied to the piston or piston seal.

[Kailua]

This might make more sense being this is from Charlie's tuning guide.

Super-Lube

SuperLube w/PTFE can be a good lubricant. Great for piston into tube assembly and it has a silicone base with PTFE to help fill imperfections in compression chambers in synthetic sealed guns and tubes. Must be used sparingly as it will cause detonation. Wipe out all excess before installing piston. Carried by many parts stores and I think Wal-Mart.

[Mark 611]

OK that answers my question from where you got the info! but IMO molly is all that's needed and their are different grades of molly out there that are better than ARH molly, the superlube is kinda used as an assembly lube I believe from that info source, molly does the same thing and it will burnish itself into the metal so that's why I questioned the usage of the superlube in this applycation? I do use superlube buy I mix it 50/50 with molly and only use it on external parts like trigger sears and barrel forks or block areas, JMO

[kevinbrian]

I appreciate all of the replies.  Ya know, I am having difficulty wondering why a "metal to metal" lube is SO recommended for a synthetic seal, and delrin buttons on the piston. There is no metal to metal until the piston hook engages the trigger lock (if that's the right term for the part of the Rekord trigger that engages the piston rod hook)
  In times past, I would put some moly paste on certain parts of the trigger. (I don't do that now). I would tear into the gun a couple months later and see that the moly paste had dried out.
  I am certianly not trying to start a war here. I have used good old ARH moly for a quite a while. And as long as I keep playing with airguns, I will always keep some (as long as it's available).  It's not that I dislike ARH moly....actually I love the stuff. But I was just hoping that someone who home tunes alot might have stumbled upon a recipe of something slicker, that might be better for a "delrin to metal" or a "synthetic material to metal" application that is very slick and will STAY slick.
  I have tried spraying silicon spray into the firing area of the chamber, and letting dry. And then using Eurolube as piston seal lube. Velocity gains were had.....but I didn't put but about 150 shots down the tube before I opened the gun up again to try a new spring. Anyway....I certainly appreciate all who have taken the time to respond. Merry Christmas.

[Calmark]

Kevinbrian,

You might try some of the Vortek lube.  I recently installed kits in two R7s and the kits came with some lube that looked a lot like the moly paste from ARH, but thinner.  Instead of using the Maccari stuff like I usually do, I tried out the stuff Vortek sent on all of the inside parts like piston seal and piston itself.  One one R7 it was a relube since it was slow at about 575 fps after the tune.  I also resized the seal, and now its a bit over 600 fps.  I don't know if it was the lube or seal sizing and breaking in, but there was improvement.  It might be worth a shot trying to order some of this lube and seeing if it makes a difference.

[thekid]

the Molly is more than just metal to metal lube...it is also a fuel.
Giving a slight increase in performance by wicking the Molly in through the hone lines.
Have tried everything myself, from eddies slick 50 treatment to my own creations.
I will stick with what the pros recommend, as it has worked very well and my guns perform the best this way.

Goodluck.

[Novagun]

The Kid is onto it. The crosshatching retains grease, the hydrocarbon part of Moly added grease and feds a small amount into the compression chamber with each shot so that it diesels and gives more power. This is well documented by Cardew. OK if that is what you want but I always want a bit less power in the higher power rifles.
Here in Wellington some of us use Di-electric grease on piston seals. It is a silicon grease used for lubicating electical things where a spark might cause a bang. Also used in the marine industry for lubricating salt water pump impellors. A very small amount on the lip of the seal on assembly is all you need. It is recommended for synthetic to steel lubrication but not for steel to steel because it does not had have good load carrying capacity. It does resist high temperatures where hydrorcarbon grease, which all or most moly are based on, will ignite.

Your fellow countryman Dr. Beeman recommends a drip or two of oil through the transfer port every 500 pellets.
 The same recommendation appears in the older Weihrauch instruction manuals. This was obviously necessary with leather piston seals but probably no so with the synthetic ones.

 Sometimes a synthetic seal can become dry and squeak. Rightly or wrongly I put two drops of silicon oil down the transfer port sometimes. I am not particular enough to count or estimate pellet numbers. So far no adverse effects and silicon oil does not ignite. It supplements the silicon grease I use on reassembly. Possibly a smear gets ejected into the barrel and lubricates that.

Take care of it in your workshop becaue it is tenacious stuff and can transfer from bench to timber and then your gluing job or your painting job will be a problem.

[Novagun]

When I reread the above I cringe at the typos. Ah well I will get over it soon.

[Mark 611]

theirs is a spell check LOL!!!!!!

[kevinbrian]

I got some of the white lube. And the purple. And the moly colored. All from Vortek. I get a different color with each kit. Saved 'em all. I'll start my experimenting tomorrow. Thanks...kevin

[QuigleyUpYonder]

I've been using DuPont Krytox in my springers for over 15 years.  IME/O this lube is superior to anything I have read about others using and yes, I started as most do, with James Maccari's excellent lubes. I know that's going to fly in the face of the establishment but check it out if you're looking for something that works great for synthetic polymer seals AND O-rings. Krytox is THE lubricant for O-rings. Nothing else comes close. Please research it before flaming me! I've been modding and working on air rifles since the 80's. Just a tinker, toiling away in obscurity.

Reasons for use:
It is completely free of any hydrocarbons and chemically inert.
It can NOT support combustion, even in a pure oxygen environment, so "dieseling" is out of the question. Coefficient of friction is very LOW i.e. very slippery. There's NO silicone in it so it safe to use with silicone O-rings, seals and hoses. Has a wide temperature range, so it doesn't increase viscosity at low temps and that makes it great for cold weather hunting. ALL of F-1, Indy Car and NASCAR use it for nearly all applications requiring "grease". All they care about is the high temp rating and the low coefficient of friction but they swear by it.


In another life, I was a diver and started using this stuff on my rebreathers and regulator O-rings.
DuPont had to invent this product for the space program, so it should go without saying, O-rings and lubrication are huge issues in outer space. The downsides to this are the availability and the PRICE. As you can imagine, it's not cheap. BUT, a little goes a long way. If you're a tightwad and think that Maccari's lubes are too high, then don't even bother looking this stuff up!

..also, there's basically only two viscosities commonly available. I have both and blend the two to get something in the middle. Not necessary, I'm just sick like that! Get the thin stuff if you want things simple.



*NOTE*  IF you smoke, do NOT get Krytox on your fingers! Even if you don't smoke, wear nitrile gloves while handling Krytox. 

[kevinbrian]

No flaming from me Quigley!!! I appreciate your post. And for your candidness.  I am going to see who has Krytox in my area. I am always open to new stuff.  A home tuner can ALWAYS backtrack to the good ol standard.  And I mean absolutely no disrespect to the ARG kube users. I am one of them. I have placed MANY AN ORDER with ARH and I;m not even a pro-tuner.  I'm a self tuner. And I wear that label with pride. Again...I mean no disrespect to the pro tuners. I have shot many of the rifles they tuned and I am always amazed at the wonderful shot cycle.  It's just that... I've got time to try doing it myself. And there are likely more than just a few of use who do it like that. It's our nature.
   So, Quigley...I thoroughly appreciate the 'heads up' on a product that I will try.

[Mark 611]

Good info Quig thanks for sharing!

[Bryan Heimann]

Dang.  I was just looking at some prices for the krytox, you ain't lying about the price!  Which one is the lower viscosity version?