Piston seal lube. Has there been any change???

[OleTomCat]

Krytox is a cryogenic product used for pure oxygen environs.  It is totally hydrocarbon free for use in oxygen clean applications.  I used to work in the field, it is good stuff and very expensive....

[nced]

I have home tuned plenty of HW guns. I just buy them new and then 'have at it'. It's my hobby. It's waht I like to do. I have always had those inclinations. And probably always will.  I have always used ARH Moly paste.....just a smear behind the seal...none on the face. I am presently playing with an HW95K in 20 cal.  The spring wire is .128. It is 29 coils. It is spaced on the rear guide about two nickels width.  I am using a ARH hornet seal. I am getting 810 fps average wth 11.6 grain FTT's. Not bad. 
  But I wonder one thing.  Does anyone use anything else as a piston seal lube??? Something...say.....a bit slicker.  My piston is buttoned so there is no metal to metal during the cocking and firing stroke.
   This question always seems to tempt several to ask: "WHY CHANGE??? If it' working why change???"   Answer:  Why not? Why can't i try new technique to see if I can optimize things a bit more?
  And to the nice airgunners out there who have entertained the same question......I appreciate you kind responses. I am just in the mood to try new stuff. I have a new can of ARH moly if I mess up. I have acetone and other volatiles available to clean out the tube and all components.  I just feel like experimenting today and am hoping that if anyone has, and with success, they'll share a hint or two with me.  I appreciate all responses.

Well.......I've been messing with the stripping of all "grease" from my HW pistons and lubing with only dry graphite powder. I do lose a few fps (maybe 10) since there is little/no combustion in the shot cycle, however I get very consistent velocities that aren't affected very much by temperature induced lube thickening/thinning. So far my brother has been running dry graphite lube for a year with great success in the squirrel woods and field target course shooting his R9 in the hunter class.

A bit of a warning though......the first time I used dry graphite I puffed some dry graphite through the transfer port without thoroughly degreasing the piston. Well.....the graphite powder mixed with the existing molly paste and formed a sort of "gloopy stuff" that made it even hard to extract the piston. After that I disassembled the R9, degreased the piston and receiver, then applied the dry graphite powder........worked a treat!

I'm not saying that YOU should do the same.......only answering your question pertaining to "alternate piston seal lubes". By the way, I'm running home turned oring sealed piston caps in my HW springers (my brother also) and here is a pic of a couple orings. The one on the left is unused and the one on the right was used with graphite powder for quite a few shots, then removed for inspection. Notice that the oring on the right looks like it's been "pewter plated" by the embedded graphite..........

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Ed Canoles over on the Yellow is trying straight moly powder. No other lube inside.

After using 6 micron molly powder for a while I do believe that graphite powder worked better. LOL.....been thinking of a 50/50 mix of molly and graphite but haven't tried it yet.

By the way, the molly powder (pretty expensive stuff) did work well for a few thousand shots, but then I started getting a SLIGHT grating noise when cocking. Disassembled the R9 and there was no evidence of galling, however I didn't relube with the molly powder.

I also tried a 50/50 mixture of 100% silicone grease and molly powder thinking that the silicone would be good for the oring and the molly would be good for the metal. Well.....not so good since the R9 started having the "light grating sounds" quicker than molly powder alone.

Anywhoo..........IMHO the general user would be better served by just using Maccari molly paste! 

[QuigleyUpYonder]

No flaming from me Quigley!!! I appreciate your post. And for your candidness.  I am going to see who has Krytox in my area. I am always open to new stuff.  A home tuner can ALWAYS backtrack to the good ol standard.  And I mean absolutely no disrespect to the ARG kube users. I am one of them. I have placed MANY AN ORDER with ARH and I;m not even a pro-tuner.  I'm a self tuner. And I wear that label with pride. Again...I mean no disrespect to the pro tuners. I have shot many of the rifles they tuned and I am always amazed at the wonderful shot cycle.  It's just that... I've got time to try doing it myself. And there are likely more than just a few of use who do it like that. It's our nature.
   So, Quigley...I thoroughly appreciate the 'heads up' on a product that I will try.

You're more than welcome Kevin!
..when I read your opening post, what you said really resonated with me because it sounds like we're a lot alike. If people never experiment or think outside the box, where would civilization be??? Hope it helps everyone out.  ..especially the folks using O-rings. Even though I don't have any guns set up with O-ring seals, I can't help but to think that this lube is what they're looking for! I'm actually very interested in the O-ring piston seal idea but don't have the time right now for machining any adapters and/or doing a conversion along with the experimentation that would go along with that endeavor. It's on my "to do" list for sure. Good luck to all.

[QuigleyUpYonder]

Dang.  I was just looking at some prices for the krytox, you ain't lying about the price!  Which one is the lower viscosity version?

When I wrote that reply, it was all from memory so I had to check...

Product Guide

..the thin one is a 68 and the thicker one is 220, but looking at that chart it seems more is available than I remember. ?  The thick stuff is similar in viscosity to commonly available wheel bearing grease. A little too thick for our application IMO. 


Anyone interested in this product should peruse the link that I gave to DuPont's website. Tons of great info on this product! Also, because there are so many "formulas" available, it would probably be a good idea to contact a dealer rep that really knows the product. I procured my stash (many years ago!) from a friend that works in the aerospace industry.  ..still in the original plastic butter tubs marked A and B. Ha!

[PakProtector]

hey-Hey!!!,
Seems the tuners are in competition with Catholic priesthood in who can be the most stubbornly conservative. Have they said they were wrong to go after Copernicus and Gallileo yet?

Krytox can also be had with boron nitride. That stuff is sublime. By itself it is a bit sensitive to water, but in a grease...top notch.
cheers,
Douglas

[Protos]

Great post Quigley !

I was not aware of the DuPont lube. Definitely something to think about for the next tune. Excellent information.

[OleTomCat]

This is a grease we use on Turbo Chargers, high temp hydrocarbon free....

http://productsearch.nyelubricants.com/pdf%5CTDS_English_UNIFLOR%208512R.pdf

[nced]

WOW.......
http://www.newgateonline.com/application/industrial/ball-and-lead-screw-lubricants/uniflor-8512-50gram-tube.html
Over $100 for 50 grams (about 1 3/4 oz). It SHOULD be good stuff!!!

[TOM aka critter99]

I think that is very close to Krytox "Krytox oils and Greases are based on perfluoropolyether oils. These synthetic fluorinated lubricants
are used in extreme conditions such as continuous high temperatures up to 300° C (572° F) and higher
temperatures for shorter periods, depending on product grade limits. They are non flammable and are
safe for use in oxygen service. They are chemically inert and are used safely around hazardous
chemicals. They do not damage plastics or elastomers or cause corrosion to metals. They are
commonly used as lubricants in aerospace, automotive, industrial and semiconductor applications as
well as solving many other routine lubrication problems.
The 2Cx series grease contains an oil soluble additive that is effective at preventing corrosion and
reducing wear. It also contains a micro powder boron nitride extreme pressure additive. Typical
applications include those in potentially corrosive atmospheres, where vibrational or shock loading may
be significant and where an element will spend more time experiencing mixed film or boundary
lubrication versus the desired full film or hydrodynamic lubrication"

[OleTomCat]

WOW.......
http://www.newgateonline.com/application/industrial/ball-and-lead-screw-lubricants/uniflor-8512-50gram-tube.html
Over $100 for 50 grams (about 1 3/4 oz). It SHOULD be good stuff!!!

Yeah, and the stuff on my tool box is a 600 gram tube.....

We buy in bulk and the tubes cost about $250.00 each...

[Novagun]

That is the second warning I have read about Krytox in the last few days. "Use gloves and no smoking."
How toxic is it and what happens if you get some transfered to the person?
Does any of it ever end up getting discharged out the muzzle as a mist?

[kevinbrian]

I just relubed my HW95K 20 cal with my tube of Krytox 205 Grease (17 bux from Macmasters carr) I am now getting 827 fps from FTT pellets with zero dieseling. I used a thin film around seal, and put a dab on all six buttons. I also put a little on a qtip and wiped a film behind the piston once the piston was inserted, and before the spring/guides went in. So far....this is the stuff I have been looking for!!!!! Thanks Quig!!!!!!!I just bought a .5 oz tube. But it doesn't take much. I could lube tune several more springers with it. Heck, it might even work great as a hammer lube on my 410 bolt action Xtra Fac as I am running it dry right now with excellent results. This stuff is not supposed to gum up and evaporate. It's white. It's slick. It's............KRYTOX!!!!  Maybe I'll get a kickback from Dupont for that mini commercial.

[QuigleyUpYonder]

I can guarantee anyone using Krytox will love it.
Results like Kevin posted will speak for themselves.
And like he said, if you think it's  c r a p / not worth it, then go back to the status quo!


As I stated in my first post, Krytox is superior to anything I have seen/heard of other tuners using and I have ~15 years experience using it in air guns. I'm getting 850 fps w/ an 18.1gr. JSB out of my Trail NP XL, but I have no idea how much, if any, performance can be attributed to the lube because that rifle was such a POS when I got it I had to tear it down numerous times to fix/replace/mod parts before I'd even consider shooting it. I admit that I am a nobody here / in the air gun world, because I’ve never bothered to become active online until recently. I have many hobbies besides BB guns so I don’t know how much longer I will stick around. One of my other hobbies is custom flashlights, dive lights, lasers and weapon lights that I either mod or build from scratch. I do this by referral only and primarily cater to active military/LEO. I often use Titanium and other exotic metals, and anyone who works with Ti knows it can be a bear to work with from a home machinist’s standpoint. The reason I mention this is because Krytox is my lube of choice for the threads and the O-rings on all my lights. Ti is notorious for galling and Krytox prevents this, which speaks volumes to its lubrication properties. As PakProtector/Douglas mentioned, you can get this lube with many various additives and bases to cover just about any scenario a mad scientist could envision.
Good luck and have fun!




Oh, and about the “warnings”.

I put that in quotes intentionally because IMO, this stuff is very safe but there’s always caveats.
Here’s a MSDS.

And here’s the skinny in layman’s terms...
Because Krytox is such a very unique product you have to look at all this in perspective.
It is not a carcinogen, but you don’t want the stuff in your body either!
The only reported health concern was caused by smokers that got it on their cigarettes and then vaporized/inhaled it into their lungs, causing respiratory problems. Big surprise, duh! Krytox can only be dissolved/removed by a very special solvent. This is both good and bad. The good is that it PERMANENTLY bonds to metals that are properly cleaned/conditioned. The bad news is, you don’t want to get it on anything you care about subjecting that solvent to. And btw, if you thought Krytox was expensive, wait till you get a gander at the solvent! No pain, no gain! hahaaa

[TOM aka critter99]

no more toxic than a teflon pan that was overheated and burned.....ya don't want breathe the results if its burned.  The amounts we use in an air rifle are extemely small  Don't lube ya smokes with it LOL...its for the rifle piston and seal

SECTION 2. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Emergency Overview
Repeated or prolonged skin contact may cause allergic reactions with susceptible persons. The thermal
decomposition vapours of fluorinated polymers may cause polymer fume fever with flu-like symptoms in
humans, especially when smoking contaminated tobacco. Repeated episodes of polymer fume fever may
result in persistent lung effects.
Potential Health Effects
Skin : May cause allergic skin reaction. Itching, Rash, Swelling.
Eyes : May cause eye irritation. Discomfort, tearing, Blurred vision.
Carcinogenicity
None of the components present in this material at concentrations equal to or greater than 0.1% are listed by
IARC, NTP, or OSHA, as a carcinogen.
Print

AUT 2C5 Krytox has a great additive package...I know somebody who has a huge tub of it.

Perfluoropolyether 70 - 80 %
PTFE 10 - 20 %
Boron nitride 10043-11-5 5 - 10 %
Proprietary Additive 2 - 3 %

[Novagun]

Thank you Tom, good stuff apart from the price.

[Bryan Heimann]

Sounds like great stuff.  Makes sense that it would work best on a polished cylinder, vs. a honed one.  What do you guys think?

[RedFeather]

From what I understand, the spring tar provides the fuel.  Although thick,  it gets flung off and then works into the crosshatching.  Ed maintains there is no contribution from hydrocarbon fuel or fumes but I will.stick with the Cardews on this one.

As to experimenting with different materials, by all means try them.  JM's products are time tested and great for those simply wanting to lube their gun, etc.

[Bryan Heimann]

I understand crosshatching with moly.  It's the krytox that i am asking about.  As for the tar, i though that was for dampening spring vibration...

[OleTomCat]

Sounds like great stuff.  Makes sense that it would work best on a polished cylinder, vs. a honed one.  What do you guys think?

The Krytox is just like any other lubricant it will fill in the groves and provide lubrication there...

The PTFE is a really slippery substance so it has to be in between the seal and the cylinder wall...