Chart showing minimum fpe to kill various animals

[stonykill]

Can't stand Charts !


There's so many variables in hunting you can't just put down a number

  what Manny said! Hunting isn't math or science.

[DavidS]

Can't stand Charts !


There's so many variables in hunting you can't just put down a number

  what Manny said! Hunting isn't math or science.

+1 .


I have never understood those that go by it must be xFPE or else.   There are so many variables to consider that can not bo covered by these statements of numbers.   If you know you can make a clean kill with your gun on your prey then good.

[CarsonRatSniper]

I have killed a BUNCH of things with an air gun.
I always rely on my pellet/bullet being able to penetrate to vital organs whether that be the brain or heart/lung shot.
As long as I can punch a hole in the organ I will harvest my game.

I know ahead of time what shot I am looking for on a particular game animal based on the penetation capabilities of my air gun.
The ONLY part FPE plays for me relates to how much penetration I get at what distance.

Example - My 30 ft lb 2540 Carbine gets 'x' inches of penetration at 25 yards using JSB Kings.
When I body shoot ground squirrels they drop like lightning regardless of the shot angle - side to side or end to end - doesn't matter because my pellets reaches the vital organs.
That same air gun can drop a whitetail deer like lightning if I pick a vital target my pellet can reach = brain shot.

I am not advocating doing that, just setting the premise for how I personally select the airgun of choice for the day.

If I am squirrel/coyote hunting I bring my 80 ft lb 25 cal shooting 52 grain cast bullets.
That load blows clean through one side of a steel 55 gallon drum at 50 yards and nothing short of 12" of bone and muscle is stopping it.

If we had to put 'numbers' on things relating to FPE it should be as a guide for inches of penetration per caliber.

I think Bobs liquid soap would be a great test media.

Head shots:

Squirrel = 1"
Rabbit = 2"
Raccoon = 3"
Etc...

Body shots should be the depth to vital organs.

Whatever those numbers are (by game animal) you should use a gun capable of doing TWICE the required penetrating depth to cover angles or hitting solid bone instead of porous bone.

If a deers vitals are 7" inside the body cavity your gun should be able to penetrate 14".

The SIZE of the hole you make (read: caliber) needs to correspond to the size of the game for a quick bleed out and humane kill.

As a very generic rule of thumb I use 1 FPE per 1 lb of animal weight - my penetration example takes precedence over that though.

That is my $.02

[stonykill]

I have killed a BUNCH of things with an air gun.
I always rely on my pellet/bullet being able to penetrate to vital organs whether that be the brain or heart/lung shot.
As long as I can punch a hole in the organ I will harvest my game.

I know ahead of time what shot I am looking for on a particular game animal based on the penetation capabilities of my air gun.
The ONLY part FPE plays for me relates to how much penetration I get at what distance.

  yes, knowing how far your AG penetrates with different pellets is what is important. I'll give the lowest FPE example AG I have. My P17 ...3fpe. With most pellets the pellets bounces off of an aerosol can at 10 yards. With Gamo red fires it penetrates the 1st side and stays inside. With Crosman 5.5 it zips through both sides at the same distance and goes through several layers of cardboard before stopping. Same AG, different pellets.
   Now this same P17 has taken quite a few chippers at 10 yards or less. But not after 1st testing penetration on a fresh killed chipper.

   Extremely small pest, yes. But a perfect example on shot placement, KNOWING not only where the vitals are, but knowing where they lay at every angle, how far you need to penetrate at every angle to reach the vitals. And there is only one way to know with 100% certainty. And that is to test your AG on a dead critter . And PASS on EVERY shot until the ones show themselves that you know with 100% certainty you can pull off a clean 1 shot kill.

   Patience, stalking skills and more patience are needed. If I am out with the P17 on chipper or rat patrol I pass on a LOT of shots. And only take the ones I know with 100% certainty will work. From testing and experience.

   Charts and math can not even come close to figuring all of this out. As Manny said, far too many variables.

[CarsonRatSniper]

Your P17 is a great example of penetration from the low power side of things.

My 1 FPE for 1# body weight is what I teach in my Modern Air Gun class which is a 3 hour class plus 1 hour range time afterward using everything from .177 @ 6 ft lbs up to my .357 @ 220 ft lbs.
It is a class I developed to inform interested people about modern air guns and what they can be used for.
It was also developed to help me get air guns as a legal method of take for big game on the books here in Idaho.

The 1 FPE/1# weight is the easiest formula to remember along with knowing how much penetration your quarry will require.

What is the best pellet/bullet?
EASY! The one that shoots the teeny tiny group out of your gun.
How much penetration can you get from it?
EASY! Buy a couple of pork roasts and shoot them. Just eat around the hole when you cook it for dinner that night.

My pilot class is on Sunday April 20 & Thursday April 24 for local law enforcement and game wardens.
I am hoping Fish & Game will use something similar as a prerequisite to get hunters educated and endorsed for hunting big game with air guns.

My 16" 1322 with a choked LW barrel shoots any pellet I put through it into teeny little groups.
At 10 pumps it shoots a 14.3 grain JSB @ 570 fps for 10.3 ft lbs.
At 20 pumps it shoots a 21.1 grain Kodiak @ 595 fps for 16.6 ft lbs.
What pellet I load and how many pumps I put into it depends on what I am hunting - how much penetration do I require?

The only way to be certain of what it will do is shoot a pork roast at whatever the 'typical' distance I expect to get shots at game at.

I would like to see a chart that has various game animals with inches of penetration required for head shots and body shots for each game type.

I think then a solid foundation for a chart is in order. At least that is a great foundation to use as a general guide.

[stonykill]

 Carson, I like what you are doing and teaching. You are teaching people to be responsible and take matters into their own hands. Do your own testing. Find your own results for your own gun.

   My P17 is like your 1322. Shoots any pellet into tiny tiny groups. 5 shot groups the size of a .25 caliber pellet are a normal thing if I do my part, at 5 yards. SLIGHLY larger at 10 yards.

   Accuracy and penetration to vitals matter. After that it is all in the shooters hands to be the responsible one.

[TimmyMac1]

A figure of 5 fpe would be reasonable at Point of impact on most critters smaller than 5 lbs weight. I'd use that as a minimum for hunting. I'd say if you look at the Coyote as a 40 lb critter needing 40-50 FPE to dispatch cleanly (the scale seems to work). Some critters are particularly rugged like Squirrels and Jack Rabbits which would require more punch, but some are light duty like Cottontails.

TimmyMac1

[CarsonRatSniper]

Thanks guys...

I think it is VITAL to educate local law enforcement and game wardens so they have an idea of what their looking at if they happen across a full blown adult air gun.
Especially considering all of the shrouds and professional muzzle devices they are likely to encounter.
I have an entire section on suppressors and how the law relates to them in the State of Idaho.
I fully explain Federal Law regarding air guns and expand on Idaho House Bills 589 & 219 which are current State law in favor of possessing and using those devices.
I even include copies of the law and bills for the students review.
Even if I'm the only true air gun enthusiast for 500 square miles, I don't want law enforcement getting all wrapped around the axle if they encounter me out and about hunting with a big ole Clague on the end of my Recluse!
I want them educated on exactly what they are looking at and what the law states.

I am getting off track here, but FPE required for whatever game is really just the tip of the iceburg to an entire venue of education that should be made available to new shooters.

[Tater]

Thanks guys...

I think it is VITAL to educate local law enforcement and game wardens so they have an idea of what their looking at if they happen across a full blown adult air gun.
Especially considering all of the shrouds and professional muzzle devices they are likely to encounter.
I have an entire section on suppressors and how the law relates to them in the State of Idaho.
I fully explain Federal Law regarding air guns and expand on Idaho House Bills 589 & 219 which are current State law in favor of possessing and using those devices.
I even include copies of the law and bills for the students review.
Even if I'm the only true air gun enthusiast for 500 square miles, I don't want law enforcement getting all wrapped around the axle if they encounter me out and about hunting with a big ole Clague on the end of my Recluse!
I want them educated on exactly what they are looking at and what the law states.

I am getting off track here, but FPE required for whatever game is really just the tip of the iceburg to an entire venue of education that should be made available to new shooters.

This country needs more people like you Mike.

[Bwalton]

[CarsonRatSniper]

That was an interesting video but a bit one sided to sell the FX Boss.
Also the comment of 'shooting game larger than sould be shot with an airgun' is coming from the standpoint of a place that simply does not even HAVE true big bore air guns.

The 12 ft lb gun should never have been shot at 50 yards. If it had been shot at 20 yards I am sure the penetration results would have been quite different.

I like 30+ ft lb guns in PCP for hunting everything from squirrels to rabbits in .22 and .25 caliber. Never lost one yet to a body shot

I will work on a chart that shows inches of penetration required for each game type and target area and post it when I'm done.
I am going to add that as one of my powerpoint slides.

How many ft lbs per caliber = inches of penetraton will require field testing....just another excuse to shoot stuff!!!
 

[Nomadic Pirate]

Good postings Mike

[Bwalton]

That was an interesting video but a bit one sided to sell the FX Boss.
Also the comment of 'shooting game larger than sould be shot with an airgun' is coming from the standpoint of a place that simply does not even HAVE true big bore air guns.

The 12 ft lb gun should never have been shot at 50 yards. If it had been shot at 20 yards I am sure the penetration results would have been quite different.

I like 30+ ft lb guns in PCP for hunting everything from squirrels to rabbits in .22 and .25 caliber. Never lost one yet to a body shot

I will work on a chart that shows inches of penetration required for each game type and target area and post it when I'm done.
I am going to add that as one of my powerpoint slides.

How many ft lbs per caliber = inches of penetraton will require field testing....just another excuse to shoot stuff!!!
 

No I agree 100% its a bit one sided as there are many guns that can make that shot at 50yards in .25 also. It was just to see the difference at 50yards in ftlb. Thats all, I thought that it was interesting...

[CarsonRatSniper]

I love real world testing but I don't have a bunch of cadaver targets.
I agree with you, LOTS of production .25's that will do the same as the Boss.

There is a video done in Mexico with a Recluse shooting a cast bullet at a domestic pig head - full penetration!

I will talk to my local butcher and see what I can come up with.

The only other way I can see having similar muscle/bone structure to most small to medium critters for a testing media is to shoot a chicken or turkey broadside.

I agree Manny - just too many variables to say matter of factly that this many such and such is good for this such and such target.

I am sure if all of us do some real world penetration tests on different representative media we can come up with a solidly based scientific data and make a 'baseline' to recommend for various game.

LET THE SHOOTING BEGIN!!!

[CarsonRatSniper]

Here is a starter - what is your input?
I will conduct testing this next week for hard data, but this is a starting reference point.

[CarsonRatSniper]

Nobody has any input on this?

My premise for testing will be this:

Using standard weight for caliber domed pellets, how mant ft lbs does it take to achieve 'x' inches of penetration on test media similar to game being taken.
The required ft lbs recommended for a body shot will be the amount required to achieve twice the amount of penetration to reach the vitals.

That way penetration can be decreased or increased by ammo selection (hollow point, pointed or cast bullet).

Anybody have any disagreements on inches of penetration needed to reach the vitals on what I listed?

[stonykill]

Nobody has any input on this?

My premise for testing will be this:

Using standard weight for caliber domed pellets, how mant ft lbs does it take to achieve 'x' inches of penetration on test media similar to game being taken.
The required ft lbs recommended for a body shot will be the amount required to achieve twice the amount of penetration to reach the vitals.

That way penetration can be decreased or increased by ammo selection (hollow point, pointed or cast bullet).

Anybody have any disagreements on inches of penetration needed to reach the vitals on what I listed?

  looked at it quick this am.
  1) I have killed weasels at up to 18 yards with a .177 caliber 880. Not much skull bone there to penetrate
  2) I think if you shoot a black bear with any AG you are crazy... not in a good way
  3) skunks die easy with a head shot from a .177
    just a quick assessment.

   thanks for taking the time to do this
 
   

[outdoorguy]

Man is a curios creature. He attemps to quantify everthing he comes accross. How successful he is, well, that's why forums were invented to give him a chance to talk about what he thinks he knows. I wish I had kept track of how many times I thought I knew the answer only to find out I was wrong. I would be a much wiser old man. Now if I could just remember what difference this all makes. Maybe I should just squeeze the trigger and be educated by the results. The world will not be changed no matter the results. Man has loved the numbers game every since he invented it. It allows us to take ourselves more seriously.
outdoorguy

[stonykill]

Man is a curios creature. He attemps to quantify everthing he comes accross. How successful he is, well, that's why forums were invented to give him a chance to talk about what he thinks he knows. I wish I had kept track of how many times I thought I knew the answer only to find out I was wrong. I would be a much wiser old man. Now if I could just remember what difference this all makes. Maybe I should just squeeze the trigger and be educated by the results. The world will not be changed no matter the results. Man has loved the numbers game every since he invented it. It allows us to take ourselves more seriously.
outdoorguy

  I really don't pay much attention to all the numbers. I know what works for me through experience. I tend to laugh at all of the numbers. All the while knowing darn well I have done what the numbers and math say I can't 

[CarsonRatSniper]

I put Black Bear on there because they are listed as legal to hunt using a .35 caliber or larger PCP in Arizona.
Check Page 108 of their Method of Take regulations (listed in their Hunt pamphlet).
Would I take a Black Bear with my tuned Recluse?
Depends. Ground level with the bear maybe not a good idea. From an elevated tree stand I think I would go for it.

The numbers help new airgunners buy the right equipment for their needs;
It also puts some hard data behind trying to get airguns on the books to hunt big game with in our State.

No data = no serious look at it from the powers that be.