Is .20 cal worth it?



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Offline Wasi11

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Is .20 cal worth it?
« on: March 07, 2012, 06:51:10 PM »
I'm currently in the market for a new airgun. For the most part I have decided on the hw97k in .20 cal. Here's the dilema, the .177 & .22 are $100 cheaper than the .20 cal! (airguns of arizona) I was leaning toward the .20 for the compromise of velocity and wind resistance. So is the .20 cal worth it?
*note: There is no hunting in my future and the primary use is paper punching/silouette at 50+ yards in the overly strong Florida wind.
Thanks.
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Offline Bobbo

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 06:55:28 PM »
Like you said, the .20 is a compromise. Personally, I would either go with the .177 for the higher velocity/flatter trajectory or the .22 for the better wind resistance. I would rather have a caliber that excels at ONE of those than have a compromise that not worthy at both of them.  YMMV
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Offline MustangMike

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 07:20:45 PM »
Id go 22, larger selection of pellets and the heavier pellets will handle the wind better then a 20cal..
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Offline Wasi11

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 07:34:19 PM »
Thanks for all the input. I have no experience with the higher powered guns. Right now i'm working with a daisy 953 which is certainly not a long range rifle.
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Offline Tpatner412

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 08:06:07 PM »
The .20 is a great caliber and from my experience pellets aren't hard to find. Pricing is similar to .22. If you want the .20 go for it. That makes your rifle a true individual. At the end of te day the decision is yours and you will figure it out and be happy with a 97 in any caliber
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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 08:07:12 PM »
Well, that's a question I should have looked into a little more before diving in.  Below in quotes and italics is a quote from some guy named Robert Beeman.  Not sure he's knowlegable on the topic, but he probably knows more than I  ;)

Anyway, after reviewing this quote and the accompanying charts, I'm glad I have two Blue Streak 20 caliber guns for the hunting tasks that I have in mind.  I bought a couple 177s for the kids and one for me, a custom Slavia 631 (springer) that I really like and has hunting velocity.  But i also bought a couple very nice Cometas in 22, and am wondering if they were really the best choice for my purposes.  I also traded for some QB78s, in 177 and 22.  Both fully tuned, very accurate and a lot of fun.  Either can hunt, at certain ranges.  But my Blue Streaks require no CO2, hand pumps, compressors, don't have to worry about cold weather, etc.  They're rediculously light and convenient to store/carry.  One of mine has a Leeman peep and the other I will scope (can be a challenge, but the mounts are out there). 

I'm not knocking any of the guns/calibers I bought, or anyone else's guns/calibers.  But for my original purpose, if I had to grab one, the 20 would have been the way to go.  The others just add to the arsenal and fun!

"Which is the best caliber? The answer is simple: there is no best caliber, but the matter will be argued forever. The typical choice is between .177 and .22 caliber. Frankly, decades of experience have led me to believe that there is little purpose for the .177 caliber, except for match guns, which are tradition bound to that bore size and where trajectory and wind effect have no significance, and air pistols. For airguns of any significant power,  I would always select .22 caliber over .177, but I strongly believe that .20 (5mm) caliber is a much better choice than either one."

Here's the link: http://www.beemans.net/field%20use.htm

Good luck and have fun!

Offline Mark 611

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 09:59:53 PM »
here's my take on the 20 the 20 is a great Cal but its expensive to shoot I've had several 20cal rifles over the yrs and if ammo cost hadn't of gone up as is has in the past yr I'd still be shooting the 20! but IMO that cal need to be shot from a rifle that's shoots that pellet over 800fps without straining the rifle's power plant in order to do so! the 26mm tubed guns R9/95's 97'77 gun's only shoot the 20 at around 720 to 740fps out of the box w/an 11.4gr pellet and that's ok for short range hunting, its better suited to the R1 HW80 tubed gun's of 30mm, and if all your mostly gonna do is paper punch and some small game hunting the .177cal is the best choice IMO because you can shoot a 10gr pellet in the .177cal and get the same or better performance than the .20cal without all the extra expense on ammo just my 2ct :P
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Offline VAFarmer

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 10:09:36 PM »
Ya know, 20 holds good trajectory, and can match 14.3 grains in energy...

but you are so limited in ammo selection....there is more .25 cal out there now than .20.

I had a great shooting hw 95 in .20......but had to let it go.   just liked .22 better...but I definitely DO hunt.

953, good gun to 25 yds....

God bless,

Farmer

Offline QVTom

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 10:16:21 PM »
Mike,  OT but I gotta ask.  The rocket, is that something you are involved with?  Looks big and a great photo.

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Offline rsterne

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 10:22:33 PM »
Looking at the pellets, comparing JSB Exacts, we get the following.... The 10.3 gr. Exact Heavy in .177 cal, the 13.5 gr. Exact in .20 cal, and the 15.9 gr. Exact Jumbo in .22 cal all have nearly identical Sectional Densities.... Since their shapes are very similar, then we can expect that at the same velocity, their Ballistics Coefficient will also be very similar.... Their energy retention and ability to fight a crosswind would also be nearly identical.... It is reasonable to assume, therefore, that the "best" one to shoot would be the one that starts with the highest velocity.... According to the "Our Take" data at Straight Shooters, that honour goes to the .177 cal for the HW97....

When you consider the vast array of pellets available in .177 compared to .20 cal.... and the fact that the 97 can handle the 10 gr. Heavy class pellets OK.... and since you are interested in punching paper.... I'd go with the .177.... Pick up some 10.2 gr. Kodiaks/Baracudas, 10.3 gr. JSB Heavies, and 10.6 gr. Crosman Premier Heavies.... and use what is the most accurate....

Bob

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:25:38 PM by rsterne »
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Offline Wasi11

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2012, 10:33:48 PM »
To answer your question QV, yes. Flying model rockets is something my famaliy and I do when we have the time. We go to a cow pasture that the owner lets our club use once a month. Attendance is usually pretty high between 60-100 "flyers" and another hundred spectators. My family usually sticks to the smaller stuff but we've seen 16' rockets go well over a mile. It's like most hobbies some people are there to build models while others are there strictly for performance. If you're interested youtube LDRS or model rocketry. That particular rocket is med-large sized and a v-2 replica most likely flying on a J or K class motor.
*edit: NOT my rocket way out of my personal price range.(need the money for airguns;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:46:22 PM by Wasi11 »
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Offline Wasi11

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2012, 11:05:39 PM »
Bob, here is why I've been throwing my arms up in confusion. The math is very complex and i do not have the data to prove or justify anything but this has been my thinking. There are two crucial factors involving drift. One is time exposed to the wind, the other being effect or strength of wind. With the lighter .177 the time before exit and hit is less than the slower moving .20 or .22. BUT wind of the same speed would affect it more than the 2x heavier .22. So which variable has the biggest effect on the pellets.IDK that's why I'm asking you guys. I know from my experience two identically shaped rockets yet one being bigger the result is the same. Both get pushed around a lot.
This question of velocity and wind resistance almost makes me want to buy two and solve the question once and for all.
Ah the problems of theoretical ballistics. So many variables so little constants. (yes I like math)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 11:09:06 PM by Wasi11 »
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Offline Onebaddj

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2012, 11:30:10 PM »
Dude ive been in the same delema for a while now. I punch ALOT of paper so most of my guns are 177. They are cheaper to shoot alot. The only thing that has stopped me on the 20 cal is the cost. A new gun in 20 cal is expensive because i am a power junky so that leaves pcp or an r-1 for me. I have thought of converting a 350 to 20 cal but its cheaper to get an r-7 new. If you have the funds i say knock it out and get a 20 cal. They are about the same cost to shoot as 22 but have flatter trajectory. In my eyes its the best of both worlds but the guns are fewer and more expensive. Im going crazy now trying not to hit order on a r-1 in 20 cal because i want a gas piston ar15 also. What a choice that is!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 11:35:53 PM by Onebaddj »
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Offline Wasi11

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 11:59:20 PM »
I thought of a 22 disco for a while but I figged I would rather have the fit and finish and the TRIGGER, not to mention the accuracy. In the end I think I will get the .20 if it is of comparable cost to the .22. Got a few airsoft guns to sell first to help fund the purchase. The good news is I already have a Hawke Varmint SF 3-12x44 (nice scope BTW) waiting in the wings. As the market is right now the .22's are only $550 at AoA but as I said got a few things to do first.
Thanks everybody for all the information not pulling the trigger just yet so any additional info is welcome, I'll let you guys know how it goes with a review(time permitting)
Mike
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Offline VAFarmer

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 12:08:16 AM »
I see alot of the 97s that are setup to hunt in .20

Alot of the .177s for 12ft lbs or less for FT.....also a .177 can do the job hunting in a pinch,and finally, when punching holes, you want them as small as possible for scoring....your 953 is a puncher, and they dont come in .22.  With some luck, you will also be able to shoot the same pellet.   No ordering a bunch of stuff.....

Id go .177  97's are pretty consistant shooters...  and also be warned.....good groups at 50 are smaller with .177.
BTW 50 yds is longer range for most spring guns, even if the have the power to get there.

Id bet the 953 will go shot for shot with it at 15yds...

God bless,

Farmer

Offline rsterne

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 12:08:39 AM »
Wind drift is actually quite easy.... It isn't the TIME the pellet flies that is important, but the DIFFERENCE in the time between in a vacuum and in the real world.... The biggest factor in wind drift is the Ballistics Coefficient.... because that governs how fast the pellet slows down.... and therefore the DIFFERENCE in the flight time.... If the BCs are the same, then the higher velocity wins out.... Forget about pellet weight, caliber, all that other stuff.... Look first at the BC.... then at the velocity....

The BC is the product of the Sectional Density and a shape factor (and varies somewhat with velocity as well).... Wadcutters have a lousy shape, domes and points a bit better, and the true round nosed pellets have the best shape factor.... Sectional Density is the weight per unit of bore area.... This favours larger calibers.... However, in my data above, I purposely chose pellets in the three calibers which A. had virtually the same SD.... and B. had virtually the same shape.... and the JSB Exact series are about the best shape currently available.... Since the shapes are virtually the same, and the SDs are as well.... then the BCs will be very similar.... All that's left is the velocity....

If the gun couldn't shoot 10+ gr. pellets in .177 effectively you'd get a different answer....  If you were hunting I'd go with the .22 all the way....

Bob
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 12:11:02 AM by rsterne »
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Offline TOM aka critter99

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 12:15:42 AM »
I'm currently in the market for a new airgun. For the most part I have decided on the hw97k in .20 cal. Here's the dilema, the .177 & .22 are $100 cheaper than the .20 cal! (airguns of arizona) I was leaning toward the .20 for the compromise of velocity and wind resistance. So is the .20 cal worth it?
*note: There is no hunting in my future and the primary use is paper punching/silouette at 50+ yards in the overly strong Florida wind.
Thanks.

How about a 20 cal HW77 525.00 and a much smaller $20 upcharge for the 20 basically the same rifle as the HW97 and with open sights is also available in a carbine length barrel which is still slightly longer than the HW97 model 

Tell Jim Tom told you to check him out

http://www.precisionairgunsandsupplies.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=hw77fulllengthwithironsites
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 12:21:31 AM by TOM aka critter99 »

Offline Wasi11

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2012, 12:33:39 AM »
I was looking at the 77's but as utilitarian as I am, I still like a "perty" rifle. Just prefer the look of the 97k. He's got some decent prices on the items I looked at.
Thanks for the info, Appreciate it.
Mike
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Offline RedFeather

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 12:52:24 AM »
I have three .20's, two Blue Streaks and an RX.  The RX is in .20 because I happened across it and this is what it is, not by specific choice.  I do like it, though.  A good point was raised about the old Streaks.  Harry (Yrrah) over on the Yellow once posted some of his long range, hundred yard shooting with a couple of scoped Streaks.  Nothing fancy in the way of optics.  He has found JSB's to be about the best shooting in those and is pretty meticulous in weighing and sorting for roundness.  Results were minute of angle.  No, these were not highly modded guns, just plain old Blue Streaks.  So, yes, the .20 can do it for long range work.  Still, were I to have the one gun for distance shooting (and fifty yards or so isn't terribly long), I would opt for a .22.  Maybe a good Diana 54.  Optimum caliber for that power plant.  .20's are fine and kind of quirky if you are into the renegade thing but you will be ordering pellets unless you find some of the Benjamins in the black tin.  It is nice to be able to pop into a sports store and grab a tin of cheap Crosmans off the rack.  As to BC, etc, I think it's a case of entirely too much math.  This isn't varmint shooting out to 400 yards.  For one thing, you can't consistently compare printed BC's since a pellet might have a great one on paper but shoot poorly out of your particular barrel.  Whichever you get, try the JSB's.  They see to be consistently accurate.

Offline Wasi11

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Re: Is .20 cal worth it?
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 01:08:21 AM »
Ordering pellets isn't an issue as I do it already. The nearest BPS is 1.5 hours away. Cheaper just to order them from PA with the free shipping and 25%off 4 tins.
Jsb RS outshoot R10's in my 953. Just good pellets.

50 yards is long range if you're trying to hit a silhouette chicken. (benched of course) :D

There's never such a thing as too much math 8)
I like to think of airguns as the minigolf of shooting. All the complexities of centerfire in your backyard.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:13:13 AM by Wasi11 »
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