CZ 200S (AA S200) - Complete Power Tune (pics/graphs)... Updated periodically



Author Topic: CZ 200S (AA S200) - Complete Power Tune (pics/graphs)... Updated periodically  (Read 75991 times))

Offline DFWdude

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These CZ 200S (and AA S200) series rifles are wonderful guns, as many of you already know.  I did a search to determine if anyone had documented a power tune on this rifle, and found none, which is a surprise to me, since this rifle has been around a long time.   So I thought I might give it a go.  The following tune information and testing sessions occurred late last year. 



The Tune

First Step is to document the rifle's performance out of the box, so that you can compare that with any tuning gains that might be achieved.   The rifle is tuned very well as received, shooting just below the 12fpe European limit (see shot string below).  Delivers 10.7 H&N Barracudas at more than 75 shots at velocities ranging from 684-710fps (Only the 1st 60 shots are shown... the remaining 15 shots show the typical declining velocity). If you are a shot count NAZI, or intend to use the rifle in 60-shot Hunter FT comps, then this level of tune is pretty much ideal.

Factory tune Performance.  Short strings with a variety of lighter pellets...



Factory tune, full string (75 shots) with H&N Barracudas...



On the other hand, if you want to see what maximum performance can be achieved, then there is a lot more in this gun without much shot count loss, as you will see.  My goal was to achieve 900-925fps with JSB 8.4 gr pellets, and to study what can be achieved with a 10.7gr heavy Barracudas.

Second step is to document the two velocity SETTINGS on the rifle from the factory.  Mine was set at 2 1/2 turns in from flush on the Hammer tension (the large threaded screw at the rear of the action).   The Transfer 3mm x 6mm Port "strangle screw" on the right side of the receiver, was set to 6 1/2 turns in from flush.  One can turn the screw in another 2 3/4 turns before the point on the adjustment bottoms out against the far wall of the TP (9 1/4 turns total).  The screw has very fine threads, so from the factory, this TP setting was (I think) a bit more than half way into the TP airstream at 6 1/2 turns.



Third step was to measure the depth of the threaded TP adjustment hole.  Take a flat, wooden toothpick, and whittle a notch in the bottom, removing wood from above the notch.



Then, insert the toothpick into the hole til it bottoms, then remove it slightly until the notch catches on the edge between the vertical TP shaft and the threaded adjustment shaft.  Holding the toothpick in place, use a fine point magic marker to mark the toothpick where it protrudes from the shaft, flush with the external surface of the receiver.  Measure several times before marking to guarantee you have the toothpick in the right place.  Remove the marked toothpick and then measure it with a dial caliper from notch to witness mark.  On my rifle, this measurement was .280"

Fourth step is to replace the TP set Screw with a socket cap head screw, with threads ground to .280" length.  We're looking for maximum power here, so this is necessary.  This effectively blocks off the transfer port adjustment, with another screw that sets flush within the TP airstream.  You can also fiddle with the tapered, standard set screw, estimating when the point is at the entrance to the TP shaft.  But I decided a replacement screw, ground flat, would eliminate any airflow eddies that would normally occur around the tapered point on the standard screw.

In contrast, the flat face screw would ensure maximum compression, by minimizing the volume within the TP shaft.  (The space around the factory point creates air space that nominally robs compression.)   Finally, a flat face in the wall of the TP shaft will promote the best, smoothest airflow.  Of course, the flat TP screw removes any further adjustment in this component.  But the goal in this exercise is to produce maximum power with the TP fully "open."  Here is the resulting replacement transfer port screw...



With the new TP screw in place, the Fifth step is to crank in that Hammer tension screw.  This is rather straight-forward, because if you tighten it too much, the rifle will not cock.  I've read elsewhere that you simply find the point at which the trigger will not cock, then back off 1/2 turn.

I found that the no-cock point on my gun was 5 1/2 turns in.  Backing it off to 5 1/4 turns would cock the gun, but for reliability, I settled at an even 5 turns. 

Results

I then documented two shot strings, one with the heavy 10.7 gr Baracudas, and for comparison, the JSB 8.6 Exacts (my stock weighs 8.6), following sight in testing which confirmed that either pellet was one-hole accurate at a sight in distance of 14/38 yards (via Chairgun).  Here are the strings.

Barracudas, post tune (60 shots)



JSB Exacts (8.6gr), post tune (45 shots)



So, with this MAX tune, I achieved the goal of 900-920fps with the Exacts, as I am coming around to Harry's (Yrrah) ideas concerning ideal speed just short of pellet spiraling.  I believe the CZ prefers the efficiency of the heavier weight pellets, however, as shown by the 60-shot count.  To me there is obviously some wastage of air with the lighter 8.4 grain JSBs, as the shot count drops to 45 or so.  The heavier pellets yield the highest fpe as well, around 16.5 fpe in the sweet spot of the fill range (170-140BAR).  Can't wait to test this rifle further with some JSB 10.2 gr Diabolo Exact Heavies in place of the Barracudas.

A few days later, my JSB Exact Heavys (10.35gr) arrived, so I was able to run some numbers, using the same tuning settings as before.

This rifle really likes the cylindrical shape JSB Heavys.  Here is a picture of the four, 15-shot groups that provided the data below, shot at 25yds.  String #3 can be covered by a thumb tack...



Here are the performance numbers for this heavier pellet (60 shots) ...



Compare these with the stats for the heavier (10.7gr) H&N Barracudas shot previously.  Notice that the Barracudas developed about the same velocities as the JSBs, and with the heavier weight, gave more FPE as well.  (I had hoped that whatever the JSBs gave up in terms of lighter weight would be made up with higher velocities, but this was not the case.)  This tells me that at this level of tune, the heavier the pellet, the better (up to some point).  So, the next logical step is to shoot some JSB 13.3gr Monsters.

Some additional days later, I shot the JSB MONSTER Exact pellets through the CZ 200S.  These are 13.4 grains. 

First, about the conditions.  It was a blustery day here in Texas.  50° high with winds steady at 10-15mph, gusting frequently to 25-30mph.  While my back yard has wood fencing all around, it is impossible to keep the wind out of my 25 yard range.  So, for shooting test groups at least, it was not an ideal day.

Velocity

Predictably, these heavy pellets shot considerably slower than the earlier tests.  Still, there were 35 shots (out of 50) above 700fps.  The muzzle energy numbers through 45 shots are 14.73fpe, a little lower than I had hoped.  Could be the 50° ambient temp, but I'm guessing not.   However, the shot count is greater than that for the JSB 8.4 grain Exacts.   Without doing actual math, I'm left to think that the heavier pellets utilize the air more efficiently at this maximum level of tune, while the converse is also true... The standard weight class pellets offer more shot count with the standard factory tune.

13.4 gr JSB Monsters (50 shots)



Groups

Several posts have been made stating that these cylindrical pellets are lousy groupers.  But in my case at least, I am pleased to report that the Monsters group quite well at 25 yds in my CZ 200.  I shot 50 pellets altogether, in three groups of 18, 17 and 15 pellets each group.  The two groups pictured are of the first group of 18 (left) and the last group of 15 (right).  Discounting the flier in group one, caused by my poor decision to shoot during a huge gust of wind, both groups are easily covered by a dime, and the right-hand group by a thumbtack.  These are not bad pellets at all, IMO.    At least in this CZ 200S.



Feel free to run your own CZ 200S tests and post them following this post so we have a growing sample size of stats for this particular rifle.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 05:56:04 PM by DFWdude »

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Offline Ribbonstone

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Re: CZ 200S (AA S200) - Comprehensive Power Tune (lots of pictures and graphs)
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 05:17:25 PM »
Old .22 version:

Not sure if the current versions allow easy adjustment of the striker spring tension or not, but this one was NOT touched after it was set to get the sweet spot to start at 165BAR.

So the fill pressure stayed constant.  Only the strangle screw (transfer port adjustment) was experimented with.

With the strangle screw bottomed out (I think...its a small screw and I'm not going to tighten it too energetically) the rifle still shot, but it was a sick weak sounding shot and I didn't bother to test that setting.  We'll call that “zero”.  Started at one full turn up from zero and tested at ˝ turns.

Counting only shots inside of 20fps
Using basic 14.3gr. Cps

1 turn up:  48 shots / 10.9 foot pounds
1 1/2turns up: 44 shots / 12.9 foot pounds
2 turns up: 40 shots / 13.6 foot pounds
2 ˝ turns up: 34 shots / 14.9 foot pounds
3turns up: 32 shots / 16.2 foot pounds
3 ˝ turns up: 30 shots / 17 foot pounds
4 turns up: 24 shots / 18.4 foot pounds

A little more fiddling aroung (adjusting the striker spring to get it runniong right at 170-175BAR and the transfer port at little 1/8th turn increments). My last outing with a .22 version of the s200. .

Shot count:


Can go faster...can go slower...but it seems to have a  balance point  (energy vs shot count) at about 14 foot pounds.

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Offline DFWdude

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Re: CZ 200S (AA S200) - Comprehensive Power Tune (lots of pictures and graphs)
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 03:09:15 PM »
Great information, Ribbonstone.

By the way, for those who read this tuning thread at another forum last Fall, be aware that I found a formula error in my Excel spreadsheet that miscomputed the cumulative standard deviation in velocity (second row numbers in green).  The corrected charts are posted here.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 04:32:46 PM by DFWdude »

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Offline DFWdude

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Is there anyone here shooting these fine rifles?  Are all of you happy with the factory power offered?  I thought many would be interested in seeing these 16fpe tunes.  Comments welcome... :-\
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 12:07:19 PM by DFWdude »

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Offline Ribbonstone

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Should be more shooters than just us two....but maybe they are the quiet types.

Will share a personal best:
A personal best, and a pretty good representation of why even low powered air gunners put up with the extra gear/work/expense of PCPs.

AA s200 .22 (2003 edition)
Cheap Beeman 3-12X40 (which somehow feels kind of “TASCOish”).
13.5gr. AA Falcon (JSB) pellets
Two sand bags (actually rice bags) on a patio table


5 shots/25 yards:



Of course, the rain started and the wind picked up until the rain was blowing sideways.  Picked up, moved inside, got a cup of coffee, and checked for a movie on cable as the shooting was done for the day.

With a little color background and some numbers for those who like that kind of thing:


There might be something to this practice thing I keep hearing about.
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Offline cactusrat

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I shoot mind as is out of the box. That was one reason I bought the lower velocity rifle. I'm very happy with the CZ 200s as is.
Glenn
South Texas

Offline DFWdude

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I shoot mind as is out of the box. That was one reason I bought the lower velocity rifle. I'm very happy with the CZ 200s as is.
I was loooking for more power for use on Squirrels.  The heavier (10.3 or 13.4 grain pellets) at the higher tune gives more knockdown power in .177 cal.

I dislike shooting squirrels with .177.  I've seen .177 head-shot squirrels run off to die somewhere else.  So, I've generally reserved .20 cal (minimum) for squirrel.  The CZ 200S bumped to this level of tune equals the best .20 CO2 rifle I have, which puts down squirrels effortlessly and humanely.

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Offline Ribbonstone

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Did have mine (.22) tuned up for higher energy, but went back to something pretty close to factory levels.

Haven't had a problem with  killing tree squirrels with.177's at the same level of power, but I'm picky about what I will shoot and won't..figure If I don't see a perfect shot, I'll pass and shoot that squirrel some other day.  That kind of controlled cull attitude seems to even out the caliber differences pretty well.

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Offline Tpatner412

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I shoot mine as us out of the box. It's one of my favorite guns to shoot for sure
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Pyramyd Insyder
Pyramyd Air Field Target Team

Current Stable: 
Anschutz 9015 HP One .177
Ripley AR5s .177, Gary Cane Stock
Ripley AR5s .177, CS1000 Stock
FWB 601
Steyr LG10
Beeman HW77 .177 (25mm)

Zoomies

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I shoot mine (AA S200) at factory settings.  I spent a lot of time shooting different brands of pellets determining what the gun shoots best under different circumstances.  RWS wadcutters for punching paper at 10m and GAMO domed for pretty much anything else.  Bought some Daisey wadcutters from walmart and they were terrible, too many fliers.   

Offline N.E.Dan

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Years ago I was saving for one and then Crosman released the Disco,...
I started saving all over again and Crosman released the Maraduer,...
Saving again Crosman released the P-rod,....
I'm still saving I just hope Crosman doesn't release anything interesting too soon.
  • South Of Boston
Hatsan .25 Vortex Striker
PCP's; M-rod .22,  P-Rod .22, Disco .22, 2260hipac,,
China; MM.AR2078/A, TF89 .22, qb57, QB36-2 .177, B2, QB78 22 &.177,
Russia; IZH-61, 2,Baikal 512 .22, IZH 53m,  & 651K
Mexico; Mendoza RM200 .22,
Crosman; 4 Custom shop, 760+2100,Sierra Pro, 1077.
Benjamin Hb17 & 22, 392. 2100
Daisy 953, 822,880 & 25.
Winchester 1000 .177, Turkish I know.
Spain, Tuned Gamo Hunter Pro .177.
And over 30 pistols.
Still own them all.
Shu, Egyptian god of the wind and air

Offline DFWdude

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Years ago I was saving for one and then Crosman released the Disco,...
I started saving all over again and Crosman released the Maraduer,...
Saving again Crosman released the P-rod,....
I'm still saving I just hope Crosman doesn't release anything interesting too soon.

I've had all those Crosmans.  Spent over $1000 chasing a Marauder tune as well.  Mixed results.

I can say from experience Crosman has nothing as "interesting" as these 25yd CZ 200s groups...  The 15-shot group on the right and the 20yd target at the bottom can be covered by a thumbtack (pictured).  The barrel on the CZ can shoot these all day long.



« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 01:17:05 PM by DFWdude »

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Offline N.E.Dan

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I have absolutely no reason to doubt you Bench rest and FT results prove what you are saying.
Still saving  ;D
  • South Of Boston
Hatsan .25 Vortex Striker
PCP's; M-rod .22,  P-Rod .22, Disco .22, 2260hipac,,
China; MM.AR2078/A, TF89 .22, qb57, QB36-2 .177, B2, QB78 22 &.177,
Russia; IZH-61, 2,Baikal 512 .22, IZH 53m,  & 651K
Mexico; Mendoza RM200 .22,
Crosman; 4 Custom shop, 760+2100,Sierra Pro, 1077.
Benjamin Hb17 & 22, 392. 2100
Daisy 953, 822,880 & 25.
Winchester 1000 .177, Turkish I know.
Spain, Tuned Gamo Hunter Pro .177.
And over 30 pistols.
Still own them all.
Shu, Egyptian god of the wind and air

Offline DFWdude

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I have absolutely no reason to doubt you Bench rest and FT results prove what you are saying.
Still saving  ;D

For accuracy testing at range, yes.  ALL my rifles are rested on a single forward bag, all shot by the same shooter, same technique.  I only wish I could say that my Crosman rifles grouped so well using exactly the same conditions, techniques, etc.   But they didn't/don't.  Certainly not as consistently.

I enjoy tinkering on the Crosmans, but I enjoy the accuracy of shooting others more, that's all.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 05:22:34 PM by DFWdude »

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Zoomies

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I have absolutely no reason to doubt you Bench rest and FT results prove what you are saying.
Still saving  ;D

For accuracy testing at range, yes.  ALL my rifles are rested on a single forward bag, all shot by the same shooter, same technique.  I only wish I could say that my Crosman rifles grouped so well using exactly the same conditions, techniques, etc.   But they didn't/don't.  Certainly not as consistently.

I enjoy tinkering on the Crosmans, but I enjoy the accuracy of shooting others more, that's all.


Where in the DFW area are you located?

Offline DFWdude

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Where in the DFW area are you located?

I live between the D and the FW.

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Zoomies

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Where in the DFW area are you located?

I live between the D and the FW.

That's cool.  You shoot with any groups locally or just lone ranger style?

Offline DFWdude

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Where in the DFW area are you located?

I live between the D and the FW.

That's cool.  You shoot with any groups locally or just lone ranger style?

Click on my email address under my screen name and shoot me your email address.  I will add you to the distribution list for the NTAGM (North Texas Airgun Militia).  It's a very loosely organized group of like-minded airgun clowns who have group shoots in Aledo, TX (W of Ft. Worth) a few times a year.

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Offline DFWdude

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I just finished up converting my second CZ200S to .20cal.  Thanks to Jim Gaska for selling me a LW 5.05mm barrel blank.  I shortened the blank to 22 inches and then inletted the chamber and transfer port myself.  The comparison with the .177 is shown in each of the two photos below (.177 on top, .20 below).

The .20 cal barrel is 3 inches longer than the .177, to restore velocity lost using the heavier JSB 13.7 grain .20 cal pellet.  The first photo shows this better, while the bottom photo shows both rifles with LDCs in place.

I found that only the new barrel was needed.  The standard .177 bolt and loading tray work well with the .20.  Only difference is the replacement of the thin, .177 bolt probe o-ring with a slightly larger, BN003 o-ring.





I have only just started testing the .20 cal rifle.  The barrel is a one-holer at 25 yds.  My only 50yd attempts so far yielded .70" ctc on a very windy, TX day.  So the barrel is plenty accurate for my needs. 

Technically, I'm getting 750fps and about 17fpe with all the other mods noted above in the OP for this thread.  For comparison, you recall the .177 rifle above was shooting the JSB 13.4gr Monster Exacts to about 712fps.  So the .20 cal is already outperforming the .177 with .3gr heavier pellets.

Next step is to remove the "pott" from the air cylinder to boost it into the 830-860fps range (that's the goal at any rate).  So I may report additional results later.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 03:55:34 PM by DFWdude »

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Zoomies

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I just finished up converting my second CZ200S to .20cal.  Thanks to Jim Gaska for selling me a LW 5.05mm barrel.  The comparison with the .177 is shown in each of the two photos below (.177 on top, .20 below).

The .20 cal barrel is 3 inches longer than the .177, to restore velocity lost using the heavier JSB 13.7 grain .20 cal pellet.  The first photo shows this better, while the bottom photo shows both rifles with LDCs in place.

I found that only the new barrel was needed.  The standard .177 bolt and loading tray work well with the .20.  Only difference is the replacement of the thin, .177 bolt probe o-ring with a slightly larger, BN003 o-ring.





I have only just started testing the .20 cal rifle.  The barrel is a one-holer at 25 yds.  My only 50yd attempts so far yielded .70" ctc on a very windy, TX day.  So the barrel is plenty accurate for my needs. 

Technically, I'm getting 750fps and about 17fpe with all the other mods noted above in the OP for this thread.  For comparison, you recall the .177 rifle above was shooting the JSB 13.4gr Monster Exacts to about 712fps.  So the .20 cal is already outperforming the .177 with .3gr heavier pellets.

Next step is to remove the "pott" from the air cylinder to boost it into the 830-860fps range (that's the goal at any rate).  So I may report additional results later.


Looks awesome.  I see Pyramydair has the S200 back up for sale.  Unless something else catches my eye there will be a new addition to the stable.  Can't wait.

GTA - What's been your success with air gun target practice?