I've decided to not buy Crosman products anymore

[Nomadic Pirate]

Crosman marketing is just horrific

Is that a bendy stick in your avatar? lol

/threadjack

Sure is, ...homemade silent Killer

[ivanpros]

Car experience is a good analogy.

At one point in time (may or may not be true today) Ford made good trucks. That was what they were good at (simplified to one model type). If you wanted a good small compact you would look at Honda.

Crosman makes good pcp's. That is was what they are good at. If you wanted a good springer you will look at?

Companies are not good at too many things. I learned about this in business management. When you really look at a company for what the essence of what they do is, It is very limited. Just my two cents.

[Kailua]

It is just my opinion on testing would be checking parts down the assembly line.  Testing 50 to a 100 shot in a air rifle would be like testing every new car for 500 to 1000 miles.  Having production quality checks through assembly is why some car companies have less complaints than others.
Maybe have not read enough but seems what I have read seems most problems are with NP guns.

[lizzie]

The 1377 is a much-loved $50 gun. It is cheap, and fairly cheaply made. The love comes from what can be done with it, not what it is... it is what you get for 50 bucks retail.

Heck, I hit  starlings at 75 feet a couple of times, just shooting it as a pistol out my window, lol.
I'm happy with the gun for what it is.

[blind dog]

I was wondering how much time and money it would be to test a product before packing compared to shipping a bad product back and forth to a customer being that it seems to be a lot of this.  There still is handling cost from reshipping.  On top of that reputation can hurt a company a lot. 

The total cost of poor quality can run 15-30% of operating expenses. Its one way a lot of companies try to save money on QC and save themselves right out of business.

[blind dog]

It is just my opinion on testing would be checking parts down the assembly line.  Testing 50 to a 100 shot in a air rifle would be like testing every new car for 500 to 1000 miles.  Having production quality checks through assembly is why some car companies have less complaints than others...

That's correct. They say you can't inspect quality into a product, but you have to be %$# sure the system is set up tp eliminate defects before you give up on all final inspection beofre shipping.

[RedFeather]

I will address this since I, in part, kind of kicked this snowball down hill when resurrecting that old under lever thread on the other gate.

A fellow on another forum got in touch with Crosman and they have assured him that this MAV77 is not the standard B40 but a revamped model with improved trigger, barrel, cocking ratchet, etc.  AND the price will be about $350, which I think is a combo.  Granted, the scope is probably going to be lower tier but still useable for the price.  Heck, if they have "fixed" some of the problems that the B40 came with, it would be fair considering what your time is worth to you in correcting them.  Some figure the actual street price to be $300 or south of that.  Conclusion, they did listen to us but decided it might make more business sense (especially in this economy) to incorporate some of the suggestions into a proven product.

Crosman has also brought back the 1322, which will be welcome to many who like the excellent 1377.  Hard to find a better pistol for the money these days.  So, let's not rag them to death over a couple of products.

[TOM aka critter99]

besides its not like you have been buying their top line stuff either.  I have alway been taken care of by them .....not sure how you could have alienated their customer service.  All they ever wanted to know from me is "what will make you satisfied?"....they have never told me NO to any of my requests when they asked that

[bobster]

besides its not like you have been buying their top line stuff either.  I have alway been taken care of by them .....not sure how you could have alienated their customer service.  All they ever wanted to know from me is "what will make you satisfied?"....they have never told me NO to any of my requests when they asked that

Tom, who are you referring to that was "alienated by their customer service?" I never mentioned anything of the sort if you are talking about me.

[makenzie71]

Well a lot of us have mentioned the importance of having contacted Crosman about problems experienced.  Forgive me if I am mistaken, but you have not mentioned your experiences with Crosman customer service or support.  This implies that you either never bothered to contact them about your issues, which is, among many other things, about as lazy as one can be, or that they provided a less than satisfactory solution.

[TOM aka critter99]

I assumed that since you had a few you were unhappy with you had had some sort of let down by their customer service activity.  Did you even try them for your issues...even on their low end line stuff they took care of me

[bobster]

...which is, among many other things, about as lazy as one can be, or that they provided a less than satisfactory solution.

Lazy?  Come on, Give me a break.  Why in the world would I go through all the trouble to call the company, package up a gun, wait for the ups shipping back and forth etc., when I can just take the gun back to the store where I bought it and get my money back?

Some poeple love companies that sell poor products but always replace them with new products when customers complain.  Often these companies expect the vast majority of the customers to NOT complain (see discussion regarding target audience above).  I do not like such companies.

Let me give an example of what I am talking about.  We have a tire store near here that sells poor quality tires but gives outstanding service.  I personally have had 2 of their tires blow out on me on the highway.  Last year I saw a guy pulling into a restaurant and his rear tire was flat.  I told him, "did you notice you had a flat tire?"  he was an elderly gentleman and said he just got the tires about half an hour ago at this particular tire store and they were fine when he left. 

He will go back and they will replace it with a smile.  And the tires they replace it with will be the same poor-quality tire. Maybe that guy will be happy about that, I don't know.  I assume that if he had that hassle enough times though he would not be happy and realize they are selling poor quality products, but again I don't know about that particular guy. 

I can only speak for myself.  I'm not going around that treadmill.  It should work as advertised.  If not I take it back to the store.  And after having the two bad tire experiences I will never shop at that tire store again.  How many failures does it take to realize they are selling poor quality products?  Should I just keep going back and back to their great customer service? 

I am not into paying for junk tires and for them to gladly replace it with more junk tires.  It used to be that this tire company wasn't bad in terms of quality.  But now when you talk to the average Joe they are wise to the quality control issues.  It took a while for the public to catch on but now most people know. 

It's clear that the model of selling products with poor quality control but providing great service to quickly replace it with the same product works in terms of making profit, at least until people catch on anyway.  But I as a customer don't have to willingly engage in that cycle, I can opt out.  Which is what I am doing. 

[makenzie71]

Lazy?  Come on, Give me a break.  Why in the world would I go through all the trouble....

It would have been less trouble, likely, than the effort you put into writing that, and probably more rewarding, because I didn't read anything past what I quoted above.  You've summed up everything about this matter by that point.

[MustangMike]

bobster, whenever ur ready for the darkside. please understand crosman's quality goes way way up when it comes to their pcp's.. if i lived near you id loan you my disco or 2400kt for a weekend for you to see first hand that crosman does make good quality products.

[bobster]

Mckenzie, You just proved the point about the target audience, saying, "I didn't read anything past that". 

There are a lot of posters on this thread who made very good observations and points, and are contributing to everyone learning. They can discuss with respect and I respect their ideas and eagerly look for truths in those ideas I may have missed, even if I may not agree with them.   Then there are guys like you.  I'm glad this forum has more of the former and less of the latter.

[bobster]

bobster, whenever ur ready for the darkside. please understand crosman's quality goes way way up when it comes to their pcp's.. if i lived near you id loan you my disco or 2400kt for a weekend for you to see first hand that crosman does make good quality products.

Mustangmike, you may well be right based on what I've heard.  I certainly don't hear about tons of returns on those products but I don't frequent the darkside forums, and of course I don't have personal experience with them so I can't say from that.  I would probably guess that if I tried one of the discos etc. I would feel similar to you that way but I don't know.

[althawk]

He might not feel like pumping the disco up... or connecting it to a tank. That is one big hurdle $ wise those darn accessories.

Sounds like he returned the 1377s b/c of bad seals? Was the barrel accurate, the pump stoke problem free,and was the trigger fine? (every company has problems with seals, just the ones with tight QC seem to catch it).

Heck i just bought a bunch of cheap 'defective', made in china (of course, get used to it folks), led flashlights. Popped out the led-portion, put in a o-ring, reinserted the led assembly, and now they all work just fine. Learning what you can do with seals is part of owning an air gun. It never hurts to physically inspect something made in china.  Sometimes the quality is there... sometimes.
Has anyone bought anything badly manufactured from germany? I have yet to see something worse then cosmetic damage.

[SAADE]

bobster: You are 3 for 3 on bad quality and I cannot blame you for your decision. And... even a $50 pistol should pump, shoot straight and last for a few 1000 rounds, fully agree. As noted by others, we are the fringe of input to Crosman because we know the mechanics and shortcomings of their guns, that's why they ask us, we are a "focus" group, not their target market.

Still, an American company should do better and my experience has been just the oposite of yours, all my 1377s shoot lights out, I just modify e'm cause I can. Same with my 2240 pistol, I know going in that it has a 20 lb trigger but, I know how I want the trigger to work and I have the ability to do/fix it, many folks don't. As for reviews, yes, you are so right, some 14 yr old ex air-soft dufus with comments like... "this gun rocks man, I totally eliminated 10 beer cans with it"...HUH? Thanks Beavis, tell B-head we said hello! I'll get a real review somewhere else.

Are you considering any of the really good co2 guns like the QB78 rifles or... even the (sorry) Crosman custom shop carbines?

[peanut]

Bobster, why are you having to oil up the pc77?  May I ask what are you oiling up as well as that may be the problem? (As mentioned in reply #5 by Bobster.)

[bobster]

Bobster, why are you having to oil up the pc77?  May I ask what are you oiling up as well as that may be the problem? (As mentioned in reply #5 by Bobster.)

Previous 1377 made a nasty scraping sound very early on (maybe 20-30 shots after new or so) when pumping and became extremely hard to cock with a hard "stop" in the pumping stroke for lack of a better term.  Never really was accurate IMO.  That one was really bad.  Second one was incredibly accurate at first and then became inaccurate.  Seal looked pretty dry to me so added 2-3 drops on seal and letting it work into chamber and worked pump back and forth.  Immediately was very accurate again.  Soon shooting all over the place and stayed that way.  Then oiled it and very accurate for 5-10 shots.  Then all over the place again, and the same cycle continued that way.  Accurate after freshly oiled only.