One Of The Largest On Line AirGun Retailers Not Selling or Offering....

[gene_sc]

The Hatsan Line Up. Anyone notice?

I wonder why?

[huklbery]

I was hoping Richard could do what Stephen did so well with the QB Shanghai line, full matched parts and accessories for a rifle brand .  That's a much better business model than the one Mike is working with on the Xisco front.   

So many airguns so little time.

Mark

[wahoowad]

The Hatsan Line Up. Anyone notice?

I wonder why?

AoA doesn't sell Air Arms, a big name with high quality. I find that even odder.

[Nathan]

Might have to do with who is the importer or has the distribution rights of Hatsan.

Remember, for decades, Beeman had the exclusive rights to HW in the US

Nathan

[gene_sc]

Air Gun Depot, SportsmansGuide,  Airscopes and American Arms are selling them. Prices for the basic springers are very low. So Pyramyd Air can not pump up prices for the 400% profit they normally get... Not worth their while at this time. Maybe.....

For example the Browning Gold sells for over $300.00. It is distributed by Umarex. Not nearly worth that much compared to a basic Hatsan springer with SAS and Quattro for under $150.00.

[huklbery]

Thats one aspect, but I'm more curious about the 95 being so low priced.  They certainly didn't cut any visible corners in manufacture, yet the plastic stocked magnums are price pointed higher.  If they do the same thing with the Torpedo 100x I'm there for for two more.

Mark

[z28rod]

Weird that Pyramid isnt selling such a well built and priced Air gun. Very strange.

[Bullit]

Air Gun Depot, SportsmansGuide,  Airscopes and American Arms are selling them. Prices for the basic springers are very low. So Pyramyd Air can not pump up prices for the 400% profit they normally get... Not worth their while at this time. Maybe.....

400% normal profit ?   Really?   Gene, you know this as fact, and aren't making a false claim?   Wow...    really?
Could it maybe, that they are waiting for the SHOT show January to do some finalized  "hands on" discussion and signing of contract with Hatsan Gene?

[gene_sc]

It could be Mike. I am sure profits from some air guns is even more than 400%. Some less but you would be surprised at a direct distributors profit ratio's. They have the buying power. Quantity purchase are what seperates the lil guys from the big ones...
 

[TimmyMac1]

PA and AOA pretty much need to be the exclusive distributor on their main pushes or they don't want to play.
I doubt Hatsan has to deal with anyone exclusively as they seem to do a pretty fair job. It takes a lot of margin away from the maker and transfers it to the distributor when excluisves are in play.

Some makers make stuff for 1/6th of the Retail price but the Distributor is luclky to make a 75% Margin on Cost on an exclusive item and less on a Non exclusive.

[Ddgrego]

pytamid air will be carrying them shortly and more models will be available in next shipment in Febuary.

[gene_sc]

Will be interesting to see the price structure.

[rsterne]

Price structure is always a big determining factor for any chain of marketing.... I used to make R/C yachts, and Hobby shops wanted at least a 40% discount from retail and preferred 50%.... If there was a distributor involved, they wanted at least 50% discount from the wholesale price.... Two 50% discounts means the manufacturer gets 25% of the retail.... and often if the item doesn't move within a given period of time you have to accept it back for full credit, and you pay the shipping both ways.... Needless to say, I did all my marketing myself, mail-order from a website, kept my prices affordable for the customer and still made a decent buck for my time.... Airgun accessories are the same way, and hence the number of small, home based businesses who deal direct.... They simply don't have the volume to do it any other way at a realistic price for the consumer....

Outfits like PA, who are big enough to put in Distributor size orders, and then sell retail, often manage to get both profit levels, so they buy at 25% of the retail.... It's a lot more common than you think in many high volume businesses to have a 300% profit margin (ie sell at 400% of your cost).... not worthy for the consumer, but that's life in the business world....

Bob

[Bullit]

Airgun Depot is listing the Hatsan 125TH scope for $189.99.  They offer free S/H @ $199.00 level. Basically a tin or 2 of pellets...so I call it a wash because we all need pellets...right?
This is the same price listed (within $10.), of a GTA seller here for that same product. After reducing his pre-order introductory price GTA special by $50.00.   I've read posts before that they weren't making "that" much, but after reading this thread, it seems to be conflicting to me,,,especiallly after seeing the price changes and the new vendors' pricing this last month for the Hatsan line.   Based on all this, and your inputs, I have a question:
So they are both/all making large profits?   You guys are right if this is true,  it not worthy for us, because we're not getting good trusting information. Wow  

Edit:  Thanks for the enlightenment guys.  I guess I'll wait and see how the pricing goes after the initial hype wears off, and see who offers the best deal, as we start getting user comments.  I hope it works out good for all of us I added the link:
http://www.airgundepot.com/

[LeadHead]

?

[Airgun Depot]

I had a good chuckle reading this thread . Guys Airguns have nowhere near that kind of margin. Not even close. For the most part we buy at the exact same pricing level as pyramyd. If I told you the margins we work with I think you would all be shocked. I would be flying around in a Lear jet and and have a helicopter pad on my roof if we were making anywhere close to 400% . If you imported a container direct from china you still don't get close to those margins.

Our hatsan prices are set. They won't be going down as the pricing is set to be very competitive with our other brands and the margins are where they need to be for us to remain profitable. We will have sales and promos on certain models from time to time like we do with our other brands.

Just thought I'd chime in on the subject. Happy shooting!

Scott
www.airgundepot.com
www.airgunsdaily.com

[gene_sc]

At this point Scott Hatsan is setting up many retailers with there products. Not the case with other air gun manufacturers.  Not just one or two distributing retailers like Air Arms, FX, just to name a couple. Most of us know there are politics between manufacturers and big retailers like Pyramyd. My point was that guys like Pyramyd have a big edge in profit margins.
 
Many smaller retailers buy from Pyramid Air, and AOA who have exclusives on certain products. I should have made that clearer.
 
Of course the ones that buy from Pyramyd and other directs can match Pyramyds regular pricing and still make a lil profit. There are no big profit margins in this case for the smaller retailers.
 
From where I stand I see another big issue. Design and quality of products along with performance. One big one that stands out is Gamo. When you talk about competitive pricing between manufacturers. There are many air guns sold for half the price and than Gamo and are much better in performance and design. Another example is Umarex. Pricing is off the charts just because the slap a brand name on the product. Same products cost sometimes a third of the price with different names on them.
 
Just tell me this. Gamo has a gun model called the "Bone Collector". It is just another Whisper with a different color stock with a Big Name. Why does it sell for in most cases $100.00 more than a basic Whisper... .
 
How can Pyramyd Air sell a gun like the Browning Gold and is not even close to having the design and technology in it that say a Hatsan 95 would have? I would have to go back to the Big Name attached to it again.
 
The way I see it is a $)((# is a $)((# and just because it is green instead of brown does not make it a better $)((#. In most case a green $)((# is just that. A green $)((#.
 
In closing I have to add that Airgunsdaily/Airgundepot are fair folks and have always stood by what they sell. The special pricing on certain airguns and accessories is something that many of watch for every day. Don't think we don't appreciate you passing on savings to us. We do and myself and many others have bought and received some very nice products from you at a tremendous savings.
 
And thank for what you do for the airgun community.
 
 

[AirScopes]

I think Gene is most of the way there on this one. PA would probably like direct import rights, and the Hatsan structure does not make it viable. That means they actually have to compete with other vendors, rather than simply own them.

400%?! reality is closer to 40%, on a good day. With all the competition for sales, prices get driven down. I can't even carry some things because there is no way for me to make any profit on the sale.

HatsanUSA has an interesting model. I am hoping that our communications become a bit more enhanced...

Richard

[Airgun Depot]

Hi Gene

Yeah I understand where you are coming from. However, most airgun manufacturers will not give exclusive distribution rights to any one company anymore. They can't achieve enough market reach to be successful.  If you look at all the major players- Umarex, Crosman, Gamo, Daisy, Airforce etc all sell to many distributors and retailers. Most have two pricing structures- distributor pricing and wholesale pricing for the guys that do smaller volume.  Distributors selling wholesale to other retailers typically make 15-20 points on airguns (sometimes maybe a little higher) then retailers try to make 25 to 40 (40 on the high end) points selling to consumers depending on the product. Typically the higher end guns have less margins than lower end airguns.

You are right- there are some manufacturers that still only have one distributor but these tend to be the higher end airguns like FX, Daystate, Air Arms etc. These air rifles are not geared toward the general consumer and a lot less of them are sold.  They are also all imported from places like Sweden, UK etc and are subject to import fees, exchange rates, shippping etc all of which drive the prices of those guns up even further.  Companies that sell to one distributor are really limiting there reach and it keeps the prices high for consumers because it limits competition.

To your point on Gamo- they are a very big company- they spend a fortune on advertising. They are trying to reach as many consumers as possible. If you've ever been to the Shot Show you'll notice Gamo sponsors the bags that everyone carries there stuff around in. I have no idea how much that cost but its a lot of money. So I think that's why you see more expensive product from them that is inferior to a brand like Hatsan. Hatsan doesn't carry nearly the operating expense that Gamo does. Hatsan is also cutting out all the middle men. They manufacturer everything they sell. That is different than almost every other airgun manufacturer out there. Umarex, as you know, outsources pretty much everything to Turkey, China, Germany etc. They do some of their own manufacturing in Germany but a lot of it comes from other sources.  Also Umarex pays a lot to companies like Browning, Smith and Wesson, Colt, Walther etc just for licensing fees- again driving up prices compared to quality. 

I guess my point is that companies like Gamo and Umarex have a lot higher operating costs and are geared to selling to the general consumer so brand name recognition matters. That's why Gamo has a Bone Collector air rifle based off the TV series where they have to pay royalties to use the name once again driving the price of the item up.

Most guys on this forum are airgun enthusiasts and experts and know a lot more about airguns then the general consumer ever will. So when you see Browning Gold selling for 300+ and compare it to a superior Hatsan selling for half its price you know that the Hatsan is a better gun. Most consumer see the Browning name and say "Sweet a browning airgun, I love my Browning firearms I'll give this airgun a shot" Hatsan makes great airguns and have for many many years but the general us consumer doesn't even know what Hatsan is yet. It takes a lot of effort, money and advertising to build a brand and thats why you see the price discrepancies out there.

My bet is Pyramyd will start selling Hatsan. They buy from Gamo, Umarex, Daisy, Crosman, Stoeger, Airforce etc and do not have exclusives on any of those brands so Hatsan is not any different. I know supply has been limited and that may be why they are holding off or like you said there could be politics at play, I don't really know.  Pyramyd has profit advantage on things they import themselves but really they don't have that many exclusive lines and they would not survive without the crosmans, gamos, umerex's of the airgun world and neither would we.

Thanks for the discussion, it's been interesting seeing it from a educated consumers point of view and hopefully you have taken something from a distributor/retailers point of view.  I love this forum and am glad that I found it. Running a discount site like airgunsdaily has been interesting. We'll get emails asking us for example to sell a new Marauder for $200 which if we did we be out of business very fast. It's actually pretty challenging to come up with good deals every day simply because the margins are not there (and we buy at the best pricing levels on most brands) unless we get special buys from our suppliers or get a good supply of refurbished items which is a challenge because there is a finite supply of them.

Thanks for creating this forum. It's a great place for people to learn about airguns and get educated about the sport.

Scott

[Bullit]

Thanks Scott....while not in the airgun business, as an OEM producer, your pricing points for product is more in line with what I am accustomed.    Glad you posted here.    Best always.  Mike