Yet another failed Vortex ram. Who'd a thunk it?

[Blowpipe Sam]

Actually two.  I ran a chronograph check on my mod 135 a few days ago and it was 50% down on power.  So I dug out my spare, rebuilt Vortex and it was flat too.  Both of these rams are rebuilt so I wasn't too surprised.  Six months ago I would have been mildly annoyed.  But I now own a PCP hand pump and a handful of Hatsan fill probes.  So this is an opportunity to expand my knowledge some.  I pumped the spare ram back up to approximately 100 bar easy peasy.  I'm going to remove the mod 135 from the stock today and pump the ram in it back up to 140 bar.  I'll chronograph it periodically and try and get an idea of how fast its leaking down.

This gun doesn't get shot all that often.  If it will hold air adequately for one shooting session it might behoove me to leave it as is and simply pump it up to 140 bar whenever I want to shoot it.  I mean how many times per shooting session do I pump up the C3622?  Four or five times some days.  The C3622 takes a lot more pumping than the mod 135 does also!

[Berserkeley Mike]

How do you store these Hatsans, barrel end up, down or horizontal?
Mike

[Blowpipe Sam]

The mod 135 was always stored muzzle down.  The spare ram was stored horizontal in a drawer..  These are rebuilt rams that leaked before the rebuild so I’m not surprised.

[dw]

All all 4 of my Hatsan rifles that have the Vortex pistons in them have failed. I plan to convert all to metal springs. 100% failure rate is not acceptable. I haven't shot any of them more than 500 times...

[Ronno6]

Cap'n,
Do your leakers have bleed screws?
Those buggers seem to be difficult to seal completely.........

[mikeyb]

Everyone here so far KNOWS about the low reliability of Vortex air springs. The following is for the folks who have NOT yet felt the disappointment of a limp Vortex.

...just a reminder for anyone who owns a Hatsan
Vortex rifle AND anyone interested in BUYING one:

________________Coil Spring Rifle_______________________________

1x steel wire spring

(calculate MTBF)

_______________Vortex Air Spring Rifle__________________________


1x polished steel rod
1x retainer washer (steel)
1x retainer screw
1x brass gland bushing
2x o-rings (internal)rod seals
1x o-ring (external) gland to tube seal
1x steel tube w/internal threads each end
1x brass "fill" end
2x o-rings (external) fill end seals*


for OLDER Vortex with air bleed screw ADD

1x air bleed screw
1x bleed screw seal (delrin?)

The Vortex has either 11 or 13 parts that
MUST ALL WORK TOGETHER.

(calculate MTBF)
_______________________________________________


Storing seals DOWN for best-case oil coverage MAY help reduce WEAR, but buna o-rings will eventually AGE-OUT (harden,deform) REGARDLESS of storage position. That's NORMAL! Buna has a FINITE LIFE!

Many of my Hatsan Vortex rifles were refurbs so AGE was significant. Other Vortex rifles I acquired during NEW Closeout sales are actually NEW (never used) but have been in a warehouse for >6 YEARS (OLD stock). That's not good for end-user reliability.

ADDING to the age-out problem is the VELOCITY of operation. O-ring seals are NOT THE BEST CHOICE for the high shaft velocity seen during a shot.

I'm a Hatsan FAN! I REALLY LIKE (almost) every Hatsan rifle (break-barrel and PCP) I've acquired. However, I am NOT a fan of their Vortex air spring RELIABILITY. I have nothing against gas/air springs in general, they are SPRINGS! It's the high failure rate I don't like. Most of mine have leaked. Still have a few I haven't shot in awhile but I expect they will be LIMP when I get them out for their Summer lead feeding.

IMO this problem MIGHT be fixed with a RE-DESIGN to use better shaft seals, like "loaded urethane cup seals"(?), instead of 2 common buna o-rings. This is NOT a trivial re-design and would likely raise cost a significant amount so I don't expect to see it happen.

My advice?

1) Get the tools, pump, and parts (o-rings) needed to rebuild Vortex air springs and expect to do the rebuild every couple years.

2) Buy the coil spring version rifle (if still available) and maybe add a BETTER (DIY) spring guide so it shoots LIKE a Vortex rifle.

3) Convert the leaky Vortex rifle you already have to use a coil spring. That usually requires a few parts from HatsanUSA (IF they have them in stock) or 2 parts (coils spring and matching tail plug) and MAKE a better-than-stock spring guide.

I choose to NOT buy any more Vortex rifles and I prefer to convert my existing failed Vortex rifles to coil springs so I only have to do the repair ONE TIME, not every couple years (or more frequently!).

;-)

[Ronno6]

The Vortex to NP2 conversion kit is back in the forefront.
For the Mod 95 anyway.

We'll see how it develops........

[Blowpipe Sam]

Fifty years ago I accepted this level of reliability as normal.  In the third world they still do.  Viewed from that perspective the Hatsans make a little more sense.  I figure a lot of these guns go to third world and emerging nations.  In Mali or Ecuador if your air gun fails you take it to the local fix-it guy.  The Vortex ram is simple enough that a shade tree mechanic in the back of beyond can keep it running.  I don’t know If that is Hatsan’s intention or if it just reflects their capabilities as a manufacturer.  I think it’s intentional because they can obviously make decent PCP’s.

Pretty sure I’m going to convert this gun and maybe my .22 caliber mod 125 to coil spring.  I have a BIG shop now with real benches and room for all my tools so this kind of project not as daunting as it was just a few months ago.  I also have access to my big pipe clamps again so I can make a proper spring compressor.

Thanks for pitching in Mike.  You’ve been a big help to me.

[Back_Roads]

 I have older Hatsan guns with Vortex air pistons, one is a .177 Mod 25 pistol, a .20 Webley Value Max, and a Hatsan 135 in ,177, as of a month or so ago I cronied them and all are up to snuff still, they are not stored properly but I will invert them a bit prior to shooting to let the little bit of silicone oil to migrate to the seal. Time for a revisit soon.