Hatan Mod95 Vortex (non-QE) 25 cal - Pyramyd Air Closeout Sale :-)

[mikeyb]

I am VERY happy with Pyramyd Air pricing, prompt shipping, and their unbeatable "perfect" pellet packing :-)
Any negative comments below are NOT about Pyramyd Air.

I could not resist a Mod95-25 combo for $75. That was the recent special deal from PA ($99.99-25%). I padded my order with other items I liked/wanted/needed to get the free shipping.

Already mentioned I'm NOT a fan of the Vortex air spring because I've had too many leakers. I do like the Mod95 rifle with Walnut stock very much and for the low price offered I'm willing to deal with a leaky Vortex problem myself. Usually by converting to a coil spring when the Vortex eventually fails.

When the Vortex does work it makes the rifle shoot very smoothly... but not really any better than a properly tuned coil spring.

I received the new Mod95-25 yesterday. Arrived in good condition, all boxes intact!
NOTE: NOT a QE model! IMO QE on this level muzzle energy springer makes very little difference in sound. I'll take the longer barrel of the non-QE version any day.


Step1 - Clean and visually examine bore:
A couple wet patches followed by 4 dry. Normal level of bore-black on patches which cleaned up quickly. Visually bore looked clean with crisp rifling.

Step2 - Push a pellet through the bore:
Fairly smooth uniform force needed after leade to push pellet up to the muzzle. I "think" there may be a slight choke under the muzzle break? Then the pellet stopped dead at the crown and needed a BIG BUMP to exit. Rifling marks on head were "smeared". Another bad crown?

Step3 - Shoot a few pellets to gauge accuracy:
Crow Magnum 26.24 gr, open sights, 30' range, 10 shots, about a 1" group. Not very good. Fired a pellet into plastic bags to examine "shot" rifle marks. Rifle marks on head smeared again. I think the crown is bad and needs work. Might as well take rifle completely apart for a full inspection.

What happen next VOIDS warranty but that's MY CHOICE.

Internals were pretty "dirty" with an old brown grease(?) that had the consistency of beach sand!? Factory swarf inside piston and compression tube. Cleaned internal parts and sparsely relubed. Not a lot needed since it uses the Vortex air spring, not a coil spring & guide.

Lockup wedge hole and breech block faces had some large sharp burrs. Removed the lockup wedge to debur area. Lots of "swarf" inside wedge-hole :-(  Deburred, cleaned, and added some marine grease to lockup wedge spring. Wedge slid out CRUNCHY and went back in SMOOTH!

Lockup groove in breech block where lockup rod sits was not filed straight. This groove on ALL of my Hatsan springers appears to be HAND FILED at the factory. Sometimes it looks/measures good. Other times it looks BAD and needs fine tuning. I had an old Striker with a tapered groove and careful filing fixed a really weak lockup. New lockup spring helped but filing the groove made the lockup ROCK SOLID.

I spent about 15 minutes with a small round chainsaw file to improve the shape of the Mod95 groove. Take your time here with LIGHT filing and frequently checking fit of a pin the same diameter as the lockup rod. It is possible to do DAMAGE here if you are not careful.

Lockup wasn't bad initially on this rifle but a freely moving wedge ("swarf" removed and greased) and a properly straight groove will maximize lockup strength.



Muzzle is recessed in the "front sight / muzzle break". I removed one small grub screw first. The break is a HARD FRICTION FIT and that screw does very little to keep the break in place but it should still be removed or it will scratch the barrel. The barrel UNDER the break has a machined profile so barrel OD here is NOT UNIFORM.

I made a quick muzzle break remover from some hardwood scrap and tapped off the break. Didn't need any heat.
Muzzle crown bevel had tool chatter marks AND a burr. That fully explains pellet push results. YES - another bad Hatsan crown :-(
My normal crowning tool is a little too "shallow" for the bevel present on this 25 cal. Had to improvise by modifying an old dull countersink. Took some experimentation but I finally got a smooth polished crown with NO burr!

Tapped muzzle break back onto barrel keeping the front sight vertical TDC.

Reassembled the rifle.

5 shots Crow Magnums. Same chronograph results as before cleanup. No surprise. Cleanup shouldn't change velocity numbers. However, accuracy seemed BETTER. All 5 pellets made a 3/8" hole.

Switched to Vortex Supreme 19.91 gr. POI shifted a little but all 5 pellets made a 3/8" hole again.

Chronograph Data:


Rifle is shooting around 15-16 fpe (at 30'). Add 1 fpe max for energy AT the muzzle. It IS shooting VERY SMOOTHLY, but I expect more fpe from this rifle in this caliber so it is not up to spec.

Max values are HatsanUSA spec. Other values are my expectations for a properly functioning Mod95 (average fpe +/- 10%):

177   20 fpe max(HatsanUSA)
   18 fpe avg
   16 fpe min
      
22   21 fpe max(HatsanUSA)
   19 fpe avg
   17 fpe min
      
25   24 fpe max(HatsanUSA)
   22 fpe avg
   19 fpe min

Cocking effort is firm but not a precise indicator of actual performance. I suspect that this Vortex has leaked a little air over 2 years in warehouse storage. Since there is NO BLEED PORT on this version air spring I need to be VERY CAREFUL about adding air to boost performance. I will shoot a few more groups at this Muzzle Energy and then attempt to bring the Vortex up to "factory max-velocity pressure" with my hand pump and post results another day.

Rifle is still "new" (old warehouse stock) and breaking in. The accuracy I'm now getting tells me the rifle is a keeper as it will likely get better over time... until the Vortex air spring leaks (again?)... then I'll convert it to a coil spring.

I do have a 3-hole end plug and a coil spring for the rifle so if the Vortex performance can't be restored to at least 20 fpe I'll make the conversion to coil spring.

If you like to work on your air rifles then bargain Hatsan rifles may be an option for you. If you don't want to or cannot work on airguns yourself, don't buy a Hatsan!
To get these rifles shooting as-good-as-they-can I make "repairs" using simple tools and time. A Lathe and a Mill would be SWEET, but are not needed.
I'm STILL a big fan of their rifles but in my experience Hatsan factory Quality Control is gettting WORSE!

Good Luck!

:-)

[CellarRat]

If I didn't already have a .25 135qe I would have been tempted. I have 6 Hatsan so far and that might be enough. 

[Blowpipe Sam]

My wife hates you Mike.  Or she would if she knew who you were.  All she knows is that you are one of those feckless enablers that populate this forum and who are forever leading me astray.  I followed your link and I even had an AT 44 in the cart. . . .  Twice. . . .  Fortunately I had a "squirrel moment"  before I could push the button.  I decided to order some pellets since I was at the PA website and then I thought I'd look at their "bargains".  Shoulda quit while I was ahead.  With discount codes I calculated that the refurb Springfield Armory M1 BB carbine would come out to $84.00.  Well that would put me over the $150 for free shipping and keep me from putting the AT 44 in the cart again.  I got out with some of my hair left.  Eight tins of pellets and a bb gun!  Well it's Christmas money so she can't beat me too hard!

[mikeyb]

My wife hates you Mike.  Or she would if she knew who you were.  All she knows is that you are one of those feckless enablers that populate this forum and who are forever leading me astray. I followed your link and I even had an AT 44 in the cart. . . .  Twice. . . .  Fortunately I had a "squirrel moment"  before I could push the button.  I decided to order some pellets since I was at the PA website and then I thought I'd look at their "bargains".  Shoulda quit while I was ahead.  With discount codes I calculated that the refurb Springfield Armory M1 BB carbine would come out to $84.00.  Well that would put me over the $150 for free shipping and keep me from putting the AT 44 in the cart again.  I got out with some of my hair left.  Eight tins of pellets and a bb gun!  Well it's Christmas money so she can't beat me too hard!

I can live with that. The more she blames me the LESS she blames you ;-)

[N.E.Dan]

So is it just a matter of time before the Hatsan Vortex ram goes?

[mikeyb]

So is it just a matter of time before the Hatsan Vortex ram goes?

Yes = https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=217150.msg156578737#msg156578737

BUT the Vortex rifles are REALLY NICE when the Vortex is working. I would have preferred the coil spring version but it was more than double the cost(?) of the closeout special. I believe this Vortex Mod95 will shoot well for at least a couple years.

Am in the process of testing a cheap coil spring I got from China for $6. It shoots well BUT best ME for that coil spring is ~13 FPE. I might use that spring in a 177 version but it is too weak for the 25 cal.

I have "topped off" my Vortex air spring to 125BAR listed as "maximum MV pressure" and will put that Vortex back in to test MV/ME.  I don't know if I actually added any air to the Vortex. The "loose o-ring" check valve doesn't make any sound during the fill. Only way to know for certain is to test pellets over the chronograph.

I AM DISAPPOINTED in Hatsan QC once again because the hole in the compression tube does not properly LINE UP with the fill hole in the Vortex. The probe won't fit into the Vortex unless I completely disassemble the rifle to REMOVE the Vortex first. I will open-up that hole in the comp tube but this kind of sloppy factory work makes me sad.

[doninva]

So is it just a matter of time before the Hatsan Vortex ram goes?

Yes = https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=217150.msg156578737#msg156578737

BUT the Vortex rifles are REALLY NICE when the Vortex is working. I would have preferred the coil spring version but it was more than double the cost(?) of the closeout special. I believe this Vortex Mod95 will shoot well for at least a couple years.

Am in the process of testing a cheap coil spring I got from China for $6. It shoots well BUT best ME for that coil spring is ~13 FPE. I might use that spring in a 177 version but it is too weak for the 25 cal.

I have "topped off" my Vortex air spring to 125BAR listed as "maximum MV pressure" and will put that Vortex back in to test MV/ME.  I don't know if I actually added any air to the Vortex. The "loose o-ring" check valve doesn't make any sound during the fill. Only way to know for certain is to test pellets over the chronograph.

I AM DISAPPOINTED in Hatsan QC once again because the hole in the compression tube does not properly LINE UP with the fill hole in the Vortex. The probe won't fit into the Vortex unless I completely disassemble the rifle to REMOVE the Vortex first. I will open-up that hole in the comp tube but this kind of sloppy factory work makes me sad.

Could l get a link to the 6 dollar spring from China? I would like to see how my 95 would shoot at a lower fpe? Thanks, Don

[Blowpipe Sam]

Try Air Rifle Headquarters.

[doninva]

Try Air Rifle Headquarters.

Bought several springs and seals from arh but no 6 dollar springs. Don

[Blowpipe Sam]

Try Air Rifle Headquarters.

Bought several springs and seals from arh but no 6 dollar springs. Don

They have sub 12 lb. UK spec springs on sale right now. 

[doninva]

Thanks, l'll check them out. Don

[Blowpipe Sam]

Well it’s gone now.  I think its my browser not updating.

[mikeyb]

Could l get a link to the 6 dollar spring from China? I would like to see how my 95 would shoot at a lower fpe? Thanks, Don

Sorry... $7 springs.

Ebay seller WJTH-1128

...currently on vacation?

I ordered 10 pieces 3.2mm x 19mm x 400mm.

With shipping & tax & qty discount total was actually $7/spring.
Also took several weeks to get here, but I knew it would be SLOW.

These are LOW QUALITY steel springs. They "set" more than good quality springs and may NOT LAST thousands of shots either. I'm using them for MY springer experiments/testing.

I was fully aware of what I was getting and am satisfied with the results so far. YMMV.

Better quality steel and a little higher ME would have been a pleasant surprise, but for that price the odds of that happening were very low.

The 400mm length is too long for rifles like the Striker/Edge and the Mod95 and the springs must be cut down and the cut ends collapsed and refinished. The spring ID fits my custom BOLT spring guides well. My Mod95-25 test rifle has a very nice shot cycle with that cheap spring but it is only shooting 13-14 FPE so the shot cycle SHOULD be quite mellow.


I normally order my Hatsan springs DIRECTLY from HatsanUSA. $20/spring, maybe 3 springs per order, and ~$15 S&H is $75,  or ~$25/spring. I KNOW those work well as I've converted Vortex rifles BACK to factory coil springs with good results. If you are attempting to convert a Vortex rifle to coil spring you MUST also order the 3-hole tail-plug for your particular model rifle.

Vortex rifles come with a truncated 2-hole tail-plug and those are NOT usable for coil spring conversion unless you want to spend hours fabricating a complex shaped spacer with precision drilled holes and machined slots. IMO it is WELL WORTH spending the $10 per tail-plug from HatsanUSA... assuming they have them in stock.

If you don't plan to make your own spring guide and bearing washers you will also want to order all those from HatsanUSA as well. Look up the expanded parts drawing and order the parts you need through the online form. If in stock processing may take a week or two. If you need parts fast... sorry. I've learned calm patience is best when dealing with HatsanUSA :-)

[doninva]

Could l get a link to the 6 dollar spring from China? I would like to see how my 95 would shoot at a lower fpe? Thanks, Don

Sorry... $7 springs.

Ebay seller WJTH-1128

...currently on vacation?

I ordered 10 pieces 3.2mm x 19mm x 400mm.

With shipping & tax & qty discount total was actually $7/spring.
Also took several weeks to get here, but I knew it would be SLOW.

These are LOW QUALITY steel springs. They "set" more than good quality springs and may NOT LAST thousands of shots either. I'm using them for MY springer experiments/testing.

I was fully aware of what I was getting and am satisfied with the results so far. YMMV.

Better quality steel and a little higher ME would have been a pleasant surprise, but for that price the odds of that happening were very low.

The 400mm length is too long for rifles like the Striker/Edge and the Mod95 and the springs must be cut down and the cut ends collapsed and refinished. The spring ID fits my custom BOLT spring guides well. My Mod95-25 test rifle has a very nice shot cycle with that cheap spring but it is only shooting 13-14 FPE so the shot cycle SHOULD be quite mellow.


I normally order my Hatsan springs DIRECTLY from HatsanUSA. $20/spring, maybe 3 springs per order, and ~$15 S&H is $75,  or ~$25/spring. I KNOW those work well as I've converted Vortex rifles BACK to factory coil springs with good results. If you are attempting to convert a Vortex rifle to coil spring you MUST also order the 3-hole tail-plug for your particular model rifle.

Vortex rifles come with a truncated 2-hole tail-plug and those are NOT usable for coil spring conversion unless you want to spend hours fabricating a complex shaped spacer with precision drilled holes and machined slots. IMO it is WELL WORTH spending the $10 per tail-plug from HatsanUSA... assuming they have them in stock.

If you don't plan to make your own spring guide and bearing washers you will also want to order all those from HatsanUSA as well. Look up the expanded parts drawing and order the parts you need through the online form. If in stock processing may take a week or two. If you need parts fast... sorry. I've learned calm patience is best when dealing with HatsanUSA :-)

Thanks for all the info. Don