HW77 / HW97 Thumb roulette? (Under levers in general?)

[Rot05]

HW77 / HW97 Underlever Safety Mechanism?

(Regarding underlever air rifles in general)

I'm relatively new to high-quality airguns, so please bear with me. I've been researching this topic for the past couple of weeks and I'm curious if there have been any updates or third-party innovations to make new air gun enthusiasts feel more confident about buying an underlever air rifle, without worrying about injuring their thumb while operating these finely crafted wooden and steel masterpieces.

Initially, I discovered that the earlier versions of these rifles didn't have an "anti-bear trap" feature (which is crucial for safely de-cocking the gun without risking harm to one's thumb). In my opinion, this wasn't a wise compromise.

Now, with the modern versions of the HW77 / HW97, they do come with a sort of "anti-bear" mechanism. I say "sort of" because many have noted that it only prevents the sear from engaging. Sounds good, right? However, further research revealed that the old HW77 had issues with the cocking arm to piston "shuttle" (I may have the part's name wrong) becoming loose or detaching, completely bypassing the sear and causing a sudden and painful accident involving one's thumb.

Frankly, that terrifies me.

I would have assumed that Weihrauch, at least for liability and legal reasons, would have developed a more effective way to physically prevent (block) the bolt from closing even in the event of a mechanical failure, as they did in the initial design. For instance, they could use a cross bolt pin that could be held in place by a detent or even a cable attached to the action that could be slid in to obstruct the forward movement of the bolt while loading. On further reflection, an automatic "lockout" engaged when the rifle is fully cocked would be even more ideal.

A simple, though less robust, non-permanent modification could involve a 3D-printed "breach block" that can be inserted and removed easily after loading the gun. This could be a half-cylinder with tabs on either side, designed to slow down and hopefully halt the full motion and closing of the bolt in case of a mechanical failure. Below is a rough concept sketch, not to scale, since I don't yet own one of these rifles. I say "yet" because I'd love to own one, but I tend to think in "worst-case scenarios" (yes, that book traumatized me as a kid – I realize that now). So, I always find myself thinking "What if," and given my "luck," it might just happen to me.

Thank you all for your time, consideration, and forthcoming insights on this matter.

-Ryan

[Struckat]

No device can replace common sense and safety practices.

Keep hold of the cocking lever while loading. If a break barrel, hold the barrel while loading.

You suggest a solution to a problem that does not exist.

[Denby95]

Struckat said it all. Hold the lever the entire time. This is how you should always do it, bear trap mechanism or not.

If you feel you need an additional mechanism to depress that would be able to stop the sliding chamber from moving forward then look at Diana's D460, D54, and D48. Or look at Air Arms TX200.

[EMrider]

Agree that the best option is always load the gun while maintaining a firm grip on the cocking lever.  I would never rely only on a factory bear trap to save my fingers.  In fact, first thing I and many other hw97/hw77 owners do when the gun arrives is to remove the factory bear trap mechanism.  It is wonky and really just a trigger block. 

Accidental sear release on quality German or Brit airguns is extremely rare as the lack of posts on this topic reflects, and a non-issue if you load properly.
R

[Bayman]

I'm in agreement with everyone weeks here. It's a non issue if you just hold the lever during loading. I wouldn't give it a second thought. I own a 97 and never had any catastrophic failures with the gun. I still hold the lever while loading. It's easy enough to do.

[Airnut]

I use a pellet pen to load and hold the leaver to. As said before it's really a non-issue. 

[cjtamu]

+ however many were before. And this is coming from a guys who’s already doing it all with only 9 fingers and isn’t looking to go through that again. Feel as comfortable loading my HW97 as I do my D52L and 56T/H. Bear trap or no I still have a hand holding the cocking levers.

[Rot05]

I would like to thank everyone for their input.

I never meant for it to sound like I was saying not to hold the cocking arm at all times. Rather this block would be a simple drop in, then install the pellet, then remove the block and return the cocking arm to its secure locked position. It was to strictly be there for rare catastrophic failure and never to persuade anyone from letting go of the arm / having dangerous safety habits.

I guess realistically, the only real reason for this device is an added piece of mind to original HW77 owners who's guns have the "history" of the catastrophic breaking of the cocking arm to piston "Shuttle?".

Anyways, thank you all again as I feel much better that this is really a non-issue in current production HW77/ HW97 rifles.

One side note question, not related to safety/ bolt closure is, do the HW77 / HW97 share the same size (not power) spring length & diameter piston seal 26mm?

I see there are Tune kits for (85 / 95 / 98). Then separate kits for (77 /97) is this due to the spring power only?

The reason I ask, is I purchased a "New HW95-77-97 GSX OS UK Kit -Adjustable Power" from ARH (Air rifle headquarters). As you can see it states both fixed and non fixed rifle variants. (Those who know my previous post here know) I am was "shooting" for an easy to cock rifle (due to health/ injury reasons). I landed on the new production HW85 (long barrel version of the 95).

The tune kit I purchased, looks like it could take the cocking effort from 42lbs to 34lbs or even less (@12 jules of energy UK setup) on a HW77?

I never considered the HW77 because of the blade sight.  Then just this week ran across the "Why didn't anyone tell me" post about the sight being able to be replaced with a globe sight on the HW77.

So now I am torn between two beauties. The SE green laminate calls to me.... The shiny breach cover.... I didn't know about it until this week. It looks amazing.

-Ryan

[EMrider]

85/95/98/77/97 recent production all have the same internals so spring and seal (26mm) are interchangeable.  My recollection is that older models of the 77/97 had a 25mm seal, but I can’t recall the specific years of production.  The ARH kit you selected should help achieve your goal of an easier cocking and more mellow shooting gun.  77 or 97 are great guns and the most accurate gun in my collection.  A bit heavy for hunting, but fine if you shoot off a rest.  Good luck choosing.
R

[cjtamu]

HW97/77 are tremendous guns, but not the easiest thing to cock in stock form. If you have issues that make cocking hard you might want to tune to 12 FPE. My 97 is dead nutz accurate. HW 77 probably a better choice for iron sights.

[SpiralGroove]

I know I'm an outlier here, but the extra fiddling required to load Underlever airguns ...... never was my cup of tea.
I've owned the best - Pro-Sport/HW77/HW97, but sold them.

- Are they excellent/accurate guns - Yes
- Is Build Quality top notch - Yes
- Are they heavy - Yes
- Is loading for me awkward - Yes

It's also strange ..... I have no issue loading the HW35E with it's vintage cocking mechanism .

[Brazos]

I shoot a TX200 and appreciate the anti bear trap mechanism.  I am very comfortable knowing it’s there combined with my off hand never letting go of the lever.  All this applies to break barrels.  Your off hand should never leave the barrel when cocked. 

[lefteyeshot]

I have a Diana 56th and 470th. The HW57 pop-up style, Gamo rotating breach and Hatsan 155 are interesting under levers without that problem. I also have a bunch of old Chinese under and side levers. Some say a B3 doesn't have an anti-bear trap but it does. Works just like the HW97. I think the QB57 sidelever bull pup has the best anti-bear trap that drop into the breach. I've seen used in some TS45's.

Your inserted block is an good idea. Most people do that with a about a 3/8"x2.5" wood or metal rod you drop in with a lanyard attached to the trigger guard or scope mounts to pull it out without sticking you finger in the breach to remove it. Parachute cord with the inside fibers removed works.

[Crowman]

3-77’s and 6-97’s, I’ve never had an issue, but never take my hand off the lever. Even when jacking a TX or Diana or LGU or BSA under lever I still hold the lever. I much prefer the 77-97 and Pro Sport loading procedure over the others. Crow

[Yogi]

I know I'm an outlier here, but the extra fiddling required to load Underlever airguns ...... never was my cup of tea.
I've owned the best - Pro-Sport/HW77/HW97, but sold them.

- Are they excellent/accurate guns - Yes
- Is Build Quality top notch - Yes
- Are they heavy - Yes
- Is loading for me awkward - Yes

It's also strange ..... I have no issue loading the HW35E with it's vintage cocking mechanism .

AMEN,

Just to add, not only is loading them fiddly, but cocking them is just plain WEIRD.  Truly an unnatural act.

To the OP, yes you can take the from glode off of the HW 77 and scope your rifle, HOWEVER the comb of the HW 77 stock is set lower for peep sights, the HW 97 comb is set higher for a scope.

-Y

[Rot05]

Yogi,

I would be using peep sights. I am not a fan of scopes / optics. Hence the reason for liking the HW77 over the HW97.

I do like the HW57, however the front sight do not look like it can be replaced with a globe sight. Correct me if I am wrong. I definitely like the loading "gate?" In the HW57. Seems like a better design?

[Yogi]

Yogi,

I would be using peep sights. I am not a fan of scopes / optics. Hence the reason for liking the HW77 over the HW97.

I do like the HW57, however the front sight do not look like it can be replaced with a globe sight. Correct me if I am wrong. I definitely like the loading "gate?" In the HW57. Seems like a better design?

Most people say it is a much worse design .  I do not know I have never shot one....

-Y

[MDriskill]

I do not own a modern sliding-breech underlever, so am utterly unqualified to add to the excellent comments above! But a could of asides:

Sidelever-cocking guns DO present more of a safety issue, since it's nearly impossible for a right-handed shooter to simultaneously grasp the lever and load a pellet. For that reason they typically do include some method for physically restraining the breech cylinder, which you might find interesting to study. The Diana 48 has a spring-loaded toothed ratchet that pops up under the front of the cylinder. The FWB 300 series uses an ingenious automatic double safety, a lever restraint and trigger block operated by a spring-loaded pop-out button under the sidelever.

Following up on lefteyeshot's post, there are alternatives to the sliding breech mechanism. My personal faves are the classic tap-loading underlevers - some of the safest springers ever made. The mechanism allows closing the cocking lever before loading, and an open tap physically blocks any air flow between the receiver and barrel, making it impossible to discharge a pellet or slam the action. They are also slimmer and lighter than sliding-breech guns (the piston is surrounded by only one steel cylinder instead of two) and don't require a resilient breech seal (the close fit between the tap and cyllnder does the job).

[tjk]

Just my views on the 77/97 bear trap,….I'm still not sure how it worked (wasnt worth the time to study it more), but I removed mine specifically so I could de-cock the rifle. I am a right handed lefty shooter so holding the cocking arm is a non issue for me. I Cock it with my right hand then hold the cocking arm muzzle down with left hand and load the pellet with my right hand. Return the cocking arm and etc etc.
 And yes Rot05, the non-interchangeable front post sight on the 57 is the biggest downside to this rifle. Every gun has its Achilles heal I suppose.
With regards to the HW 57 pop up breech, I believe what messes with people a lot of the time is the sequence in which we operate our underlevers rifles. There is a learning curve and a change up with the 57. With most UL’s and SL’s, you cock the rifle, load the pellet, and return the underlever to its home or battery () position. The 57 uses a different sequence where you cock the rifle, load the pellet, then return the lever to home position, and then depress the gate into its firing position ( or simply cock return load and depress)It takes a bit of getting used to and believe me there have been a few times that I have forgotten to depress the breech and inadvertently dry fired my 57. You must pay attention until you get used to it,….much like the 35 where you have to release the barrel lock before breaking open the barrel. For me it was a love hate relationship with my 57, but with patience and diligence, it has quickly become one of my fav air rifles in my collection. I have Zero regrets buying the 57. I would recommend the .22. For all the bad flack the 57 has received, Weihrauch still produces it so there must be a loyal following across the pond that still purchases them.  One day I may do a YouTube video on the HW57.
But getting back to the 77/97 bear trap issue, it seems to be just another lawyerized attempt to avoid liability for a product often mishandled enough by folks that don’t practice good safe handling of their airgun. In all honesty, I’ve never been real keen on the idea of loading my 77 with my thumb within the confines of the compression tube, but safe operating procedure does kind of make it a no brainer. It wouldn’t bother me if they removed the bear trap mechanism and simply installed the ratchet lock type mechanism Diana uses in their side levers.

[lefteyeshot]

Learning to shoot left hand is why I got into air rifles. Blew a vein on my right retina. Right where I focus on the sight or reticle is a blank spot. My 56th is a heavy gun so shooting, changing hands to cock and load then changing hands again to shoot. After 50 shots I'm wore out. Not so bad with my lighter Chinese side levers.

I always shoot sitting so with under levers I lay the barrel across my right thigh with the lever against the inside of the right thigh, my left hand on the recoil pad pressing the lever against the thigh and load with my right hand