Alchemy SUPER UPGRADED Crosman 362 RIFLE

[Keepingitsimple]

I don't remember running a string after the final cut of the 24" barrel to 21". I'll try to remember to do that.

Ran a 5 shot string at 8 pumps with the 21" .177.

Nice going, Bill. I don't have a prob reading that one at all. 10.65 fps is higher than the 10.5's fps. Interesting.
How did it do with the 24 inch barrel?

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

I don’t see any chrony numbers. I wouldn’t call it a “Steroid “ on cardboard layers. It would need to improve to 18 fpe.

I would call it a steroid based on the 32 layers of cardboard the .177 penetrated versus the 20+/- layers of cardboard the OEM .22 penetrated and it is to my understanding the fps/fpe of the .22 OEM 362 with the 24 inch barrel at 12 pumps can be as high as 760 fps with 14.3 gr.

There's your 18 fpe right there.

Going to need a flat top piston and the works to get 760 fps using 14.3 crosman pellets. The 700$ gun the other company has will do it.
21 to 24 inch barrel may not gain hardly anything in .22 caliber considering the small valve size of 2.0 cc.
I think .177 goes further in cardboard because of its size , same as .25 will go less than .22 .

You beat me to it on the penetration test. A chronograph is the only way to even come close to figuring out muzzle energy without having a very specific target material. Anyone boasting power need to have a chronograph to back it up, otherwise it's all subjective and anecdotal.

I can't understand why anyone that sells upgrade parts would use cardboard as a test to publish the results of. It does make consistent reproduceable results unconfirmable though, regardless if that is his motivation or not.

[Spacebus]

I don’t see any chrony numbers. I wouldn’t call it a “Steroid “ on cardboard layers. It would need to improve to 18 fpe.

I would call it a steroid based on the 32 layers of cardboard the .177 penetrated versus the 20+/- layers of cardboard the OEM .22 penetrated and it is to my understanding the fps/fpe of the .22 OEM 362 with the 24 inch barrel at 12 pumps can be as high as 760 fps with 14.3 gr.

There's your 18 fpe right there.

Going to need a flat top piston and the works to get 760 fps using 14.3 crosman pellets. The 700$ gun the other company has will do it.
21 to 24 inch barrel may not gain hardly anything in .22 caliber considering the small valve size of 2.0 cc.
I think .177 goes further in cardboard because of its size , same as .25 will go less than .22 .

You beat me to it on the penetration test. A chronograph is the only way to even come close to figuring out muzzle energy without having a very specific target material. Anyone boasting power need to have a chronograph to back it up, otherwise it's all subjective and anecdotal.

I can't understand why anyone that sells upgrade parts would use cardboard as a test to publish the results of. It does make consistent reproduceable results unconfirmable though, regardless if that is his motivation or not.

Cardboard isn't even a good test of penetration in the first place.

[Keepingitsimple]

I can't understand why anyone that sells upgrade parts would use cardboard as a test to publish the results of. It does make consistent reproduceable results unconfirmable though, regardless if that is his motivation or not.

Because it works?

[avator]

I don't remember running a string after the final cut of the 24" barrel to 21". I'll try to remember to do that.

Ran a 5 shot string at 8 pumps with the 21" .177.

Nice going, Bill. I don't have a prob reading that one at all. 10.65 fps is higher than the 10.5's fps. Interesting.
How did it do with the 24 inch barrel?

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=198308.msg156314044#msg156314044

The one on the left is the 24" with 10.5. First 4 shots are 5 pumps, last 4 are 8.

[Spacebus]

I can't understand why anyone that sells upgrade parts would use cardboard as a test to publish the results of. It does make consistent reproduceable results unconfirmable though, regardless if that is his motivation or not.

Because it works?

You could probably get different penetration on the same stack of cardboard from shot to shot with the same gun in the same caliber and same distance. A stack of catalogues, magazines, or phone books would be a much better test of penetration. The air gaps present in corrugated carboard just make it a really poor penetration test material.

[Keepingitsimple]

I don't remember running a string after the final cut of the 24" barrel to 21". I'll try to remember to do that.

Ran a 5 shot string at 8 pumps with the 21" .177.

Nice going, Bill. I don't have a prob reading that one at all. 10.65 fps is higher than the 10.5's fps. Interesting.
How did it do with the 24 inch barrel?

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=198308.msg156314044#msg156314044

The one on the left is the 24" with 10.5. First 4 shots are 5 pumps, last 4 are 8.

I should have asked my question better. Instead of asking ...How did it do with the 24 inch barrel? ... I should have asked...How did the 10.65 do with the 24 inch barrel?

Kinda surprised the 10.5 did 684 avg fps while the 10.65 did 721 fps which is 36 avg fps better.

[Rabbit\Squirrel Killer]

I can't understand why anyone that sells upgrade parts would use cardboard as a test to publish the results of. It does make consistent reproduceable results unconfirmable though, regardless if that is his motivation or not.

Because it works?

You could probably get different penetration on the same stack of cardboard from shot to shot with the same gun in the same caliber and same distance. A stack of catalogues, magazines, or phone books would be a much better test of penetration. The air gaps present in corrugated carboard just make it a really poor penetration test material.

It may give some idea that there is an increase but like using a piece of wood some parts are harder than other parts, so much testing and you can say there is an improvement but don't know how much. That doesn't work for me. I don't think Chronograph doesn't cost so much as to be prohibitive to a business the size of Dave's. Dave has sold thousands of parts and I have bought quite a bit from him, enough in fact that the profit would pay for several chronographs.

[Keepingitsimple]

It may give some idea that there is an increase but like using a piece of wood some parts are harder than other parts, so much testing and you can say there is an improvement but don't know how much. That doesn't work for me. I don't think Chronograph doesn't cost so much as to be prohibitive to a business the size of Dave's. Dave has sold thousands of parts and I have bought quite a bit from him, enough in fact that the profit would pay for several chronographs.

David uses a chrony. He says why he prefers the Lazy Mans chrony in the above link.

I believe it used to be called the 'poor mans chrony' ... now its called 'Lazy Man's Chrony'. (Whatever.)
http://www.alchemyairwerks.com/alchemy-blog

I qualify on both counts. I am poor and I am decidedly lazy.

Quote:
For some time now, my quick down and dirty (but relatively accurate) gauge of power results from my modifications has been the use of a stack of cardboard boxes bundled and turned up facing me.  These boxes are folded and take up little room, are portable, and are 15 boxes deep... times two layers per folded box equals 30 layers.  This is more than adequate to stop any of the 13xx and 22xx family of guns.

All I do is make certain the before and after shots are from the same distance (usually 5 meters in my main shop room). I use the stick on dots to give me a bunch of bulls to shoot at. If in a hurry, a Sharpie marker will give me something to shoot at in a hurry.  Because the cardboard is so uniform, repetitive shots from a gun rarely varies more than one or two layers.  For example: somebody sends me a 2240 to install a hot valve and port.  I take the gun before and shoot five times into the boxes.  I get 10 to 13 layers.  OK.  Then I install the valve and the port and make certain everything is buttoned up tight, then shoot five shots into a different spot of the cardbard boxes.  I count layers and find 17 to 19 layers have been penetrated. Sweet.  Mission accomplished.  Now it is true I do not know the exact fps nor can I calculate the fpe, but I do know what I wanted to know: This man is paying for increased performance and he is fixing to get it.

You might say that this is the same as shooting a phone book.  No, it's not.  I can do a dozen or more sessions with one stack of boxes.  I can keep the groupings separate.  I can count the depth of penetration much faster (in seconds) and I can get boxes easily for free all year long,,, whereas I only have a few phone books and they read easier without holes blasted all into them.
--

When I flat topped my .22 lego; I did a before and after testing on my lazy man chrony. Tested the penetration before I did the mod and after.

Do I know what my fps was on 10 pumps? Or 15 pumps? Or 20 pumps?
No, I do not. I do know the penetration increased on a par with Davids results.
I know that flat topping was and is worth the mod.

I felt the same way after I did the same mods to my 1389; although it kills me that I shelled out 4-5 hundred to have an airgun that has the same power as a $35 Daisy 880.

Please don't tell me I should have done this or added that or done ...something...anything...that YOU personally would have done or would do.

I am not you. Sure, I could get that $28 Asian chrony that everyone else seems to be getting and one day, I might just do that.

Maybe....if I decide that I need it. At present its not worth the price of the 2 tins of decent pellets that it costs. To me the pellets are the better investment.

[Keepingitsimple]

UPS notified me my .22 Disco SE barrel wil be here Monday as I surmised in Reply #115.
Barring any delays my .177 Disco SE barrel will be here Tuesday. As will the H&N 10.65 and 10.5 CPUM I ordered from PA.

While the thought of having 15 fpe at my disposal with the .22 barrel and 8 pumps is a winner; I'm going to hold off a day and put the .177 barrel on first.

Good thing my brisket is vacuum packed. I may do next Wednesday what I had planned on doing today.

[avator]

Jacob, I don't think I chronied anything other than the 10.5 with the 24" barrel. The plan was very quickly made to chop it to 21" right after I got it. I didn't like the long chucking javlin look of the 24" barrel and LDC. Both these guns were made for short to mid range utility guns. Other than those chrony tests, these guns will rarely, if ever, see more than 5 pumps.

[Keepingitsimple]

Jacob, I don't think I chronied anything other than the 10.5 with the 24" barrel. The plan was very quickly made to chop it to 21" right after I got it. I didn't like the long chucking javlin look of the 24" barrel and LDC. Both these guns were made for short to mid range utility guns. Other than those chrony tests, these guns will rarely, if ever, see more than 5 pumps.

I might not like what I call the 'M-14 look' either, Bill.
I'm hoping for decent 70 yard results though.

I checked Chairgun and it showed the 10.65 still has 6.14 fpe at 70 yards. 50% of what it started with.
If I was 10 feet away from a pigeon with a 1377 and 6.14 fpe that pigeon would be mine.
At 70 yards and 6.14 fpe....its a hmm,...

My favorite shot on a pigeon or any bird is the middle of the clavicle at the base of the neck where the wings meet (if I have my avian anatomy correct). I also like the profile shot underneath the base of the wing.

6.14 fpe will be plenty for those particular shots.

[tennx]

Jacob, I don't think I chronied anything other than the 10.5 with the 24" barrel. The plan was very quickly made to chop it to 21" right after I got it. I didn't like the long chucking javlin look of the 24" barrel and LDC. Both these guns were made for short to mid range utility guns. Other than those chrony tests, these guns will rarely, if ever, see more than 5 pumps.

I might not like what I call the 'M-14 look' either, Bill.
I'm hoping for decent 70 yard results though.

I checked Chairgun and it showed the 10.65 still has 6.14 fpe at 70 yards. 50% of what it started with.
If I was 10 feet away from a pigeon with a 1377 and 6.14 fpe that pigeon would be mine.
At 70 yards and 6.14 fpe....its a hmm,...

My favorite shot on a pigeon or any bird is the middle of the clavicle at the base of the neck where the wings meet (if I have my avian anatomy correct). I also like the profile shot underneath the base of the wing.

6.14 fpe will be plenty for those particular shots.

U know from reading all your post…across the forum…….u might want to think about a name change…lol….joking…

[Robert 5mm]

David uses a chrony. He says why he prefers the Lazy Mans chrony in the above link.

I believe it used to be called the 'poor mans chrony' ... now its called 'Lazy Man's Chrony'. (Whatever.)

I am not you. Sure, I could get that $28 Asian chrony that everyone else seems to be getting and one day, I might just do that.

Maybe....if I decide that I need it. At present its not worth the price of the 2 tins of decent pellets that it costs. To me the pellets are the better investment.

Jacob - if you got a chronograph, you could make tables of data to compare.

See example of data I have collected on my 392 valve mod.

[Spacebus]

There is some irony in using chairgun to calculate FPE, drop, etc. but unwilling to use a chronograph to get the most accurate data.

[Blowpipe Sam]

There is some irony in using chairgun to calculate FPE, drop, etc. but unwilling to use a chronograph to get the most accurate data.

I’m a Luddite.  I distrust technology.  I finally broke down and bought a Caldwell Precision Chronograph.  $89 on Amazon.  Had the thing now since January.  Don’t know how I went so long without one!

Bite the pellet.  If it’s only the cost of a couple of tins of good pellets it’s more than worth it!

You can’t really diagnose a problem or do any kind of meaningful airgun tuning without one.

[Spacebus]

There is some irony in using chairgun to calculate FPE, drop, etc. but unwilling to use a chronograph to get the most accurate data.

I’m a Luddite.  I distrust technology.  I finally broke down and bought a Caldwell Precision Chronograph.  $89 on Amazon.  Had the thing now since January.  Don’t know how I went so long without one!

Bite the pellet.  If it’s only the cost of a couple of tins of good pellets it’s more than worth it!

You can’t really diagnose a problem or do any kind of meaningful airgun tuning without one.

My cheap Chinese chrono finally succumbed to being blasted off the muzzle of my big bore. I tried to fix it, and I got a few more months of service, but I ordered a new chrono from Wes recently that can even connect to my phone! Normally I am also a luddite, but I look forward to having a clear view of my shot string data.

[Keepingitsimple]

Jacob - if you got a chronograph, you could make tables of data to compare.

See example of data I have collected on my 392 valve mod.

Thank you Robert. I agree. Were I to do a valve change on my 392; a chrony would certainly come in handy.

For now, the best thing I can do is fire a 'before and after' using the Lazy Man chrony.

[Keepingitsimple]

There is some irony in using chairgun to calculate FPE, drop, etc. but unwilling to use a chronograph to get the most accurate data.

I’m a Luddite.  I distrust technology.  I finally broke down and bought a Caldwell Precision Chronograph.  $89 on Amazon.  Had the thing now since January.  Don’t know how I went so long without one!

Bite the pellet.  If it’s only the cost of a couple of tins of good pellets it’s more than worth it!

You can’t really diagnose a problem or do any kind of meaningful airgun tuning without one.

Chairgun is entirely adequate for my needs.
Best of all its free.

I haven't even received my .177 Disco barrel nor my pellets so far ... but, thanks to chairgun ... I already have the range tables I'll need for my 70 yard project.

If my drop is more than 11.18 at 70 yards; then I'll freely admit there is a velocity problem and that the best...Nay, ... the ONLY solution will be to get a chrony. M'kay?

Is that a workable compromise?

[Keepingitsimple]

Jacob, I don't think I chronied anything other than the 10.5 with the 24" barrel. The plan was very quickly made to chop it to 21" right after I got it. I didn't like the long chucking javlin look of the 24" barrel and LDC. Both these guns were made for short to mid range utility guns. Other than those chrony tests, these guns will rarely, if ever, see more than 5 pumps.

I might not like what I call the 'M-14 look' either, Bill.
I'm hoping for decent 70 yard results though.

I checked Chairgun and it showed the 10.65 still has 6.14 fpe at 70 yards. 50% of what it started with.
If I was 10 feet away from a pigeon with a 1377 and 6.14 fpe that pigeon would be mine.
At 70 yards and 6.14 fpe....its a hmm,...

My favorite shot on a pigeon or any bird is the middle of the clavicle at the base of the neck where the wings meet (if I have my avian anatomy correct). I also like the profile shot underneath the base of the wing.

6.14 fpe will be plenty for those particular shots.

U know from reading all your post…across the forum…….u might want to think about a name change…lol….joking…

Glad you noticed. I enjoy irony.