Almagard 3752 (Tune in a Tube?) experiment.

[jccams]

Yes, clipping one coil won't change spring ID significantly, Ron.   Nor reduce the stored energy in the whole spring significantly.  However, clipping that little may shift the resonant frequency or phasing of whatever portion of the spring is vibrating offensively.

I have a conundrum.. I think the gun is over sprung. Do I continue the experiment and clip a coil without changing the lube? Or do I call it a wash and go back to the Krytox and clip a coil. The Almagard didn't dampen the twang much and seems to be temperature sensitive. With the Almagard it initially shoots 7-teens and loosens up with use into the 730s. The extreme spread never stabilizes to the low numbers I had with Krytox. Hmmm?

Ron, I vote to clip a coil and go back to Krytox, springs are cheap if it doesn't work out.  I personally think adding grease is a temporary solution that is not really addressing the root cause of the twang.  JMO

[subscriber]

Hi Ron,

Consider a brief detour, on the way to the obvious destination: 

Take the stock off the HW95 and add twice as much Almagard to the guide as there is now, via the clocking slot between spring coils.  We expect to see temperature sensitivity to get noticeably worse (ambient shifts, and heat from continued shooting).  The effort to prove this won't be much compared to stripping the gun and cleaning off the grease, cutting the spring etc.

This is a bit like a cop looking at evidence to prove a suspect innocent, rather than to convict.   However, unbiased investigators will also look at all available evidence, even if it seems to disprove the obvious; rather than just to bolster the case they want to make for the prosecution.

If adding enough grease to quell the buzz makes the velocity vary by an unacceptable value; AND causes a vertical POI drift, then this thread should be made a sticky as the reference study on this subject.  After all, we care about +-20 FPS because it causes POI drift and not for any other reason.  Sometimes pellet weights in a can will vary more than we would like, and the muzzle velocity along with it.  Curiously, that does not always translate to significant POI shifts on target.

Then, after you cut the spring and lube with Krytox, the power, smoothness, lack of thermal sensitivity on velocity and POI stability would amplify the Almagard result, as a poor solution.   And Krytox and optimal guide/spring selection/preparation as the preferred solution.

On the other hand, if clipping the spring an lubing with Krytox does not provide the velocity stability and smoothness you expect, then some of the poor performance seen with Almagard may need to be forgiven.  Or blamed on the pellets. 

Just because we drive variables and study the effects does not mean the deliberate variable is the primary one affecting results.  Hence my suggestion to generate more than one variable data set, to verify the observed response was due to the deliberate variable.

So, call the study triple greased, if not double blind . 

Anyway; it is your study and you are putting in the effort.  So; your call.

[Bayman]

Hi Ron,

Consider a brief detour, on the way to the obvious destination: 

Take the stock off the HW95 and add twice as much Almagard to the guide as there is now, via the clocking slot between spring coils.  We expect to see temperature sensitivity to get noticeably worse (ambient shifts, and heat from continued shooting).  The effort to prove this won't be much compared to stripping the gun and cleaning off the grease, cutting the spring etc.

This is a bit like a cop looking at evidence to prove a suspect innocent, rather than to convict.   However, unbiased investigators will also look at all available evidence, even if it seems to disprove the obvious; rather than just to bolster the case they want to make for the prosecution.

If adding enough grease to quell the buzz makes the velocity vary by an unacceptable value; AND causes a vertical POI drift, then this thread should be made a sticky as the reference study on this subject.  After all, we care about +-20 FPS because it causes POI drift and not for any other reason.  Sometimes pellet weights in a can will vary more than we would like, and the muzzle velocity along with it.  Curiously, that does not always translate to significant POI shifts on target.

Then, after you cut the spring and lube with Krytox, the power, smoothness, lack of thermal sensitivity on velocity and POI stability would amplify the Almagard result, as a poor solution.   And Krytox and optimal guide/spring selection/preparation as the preferred solution.

On the other hand, if clipping the spring an lubing with Krytox does not provide the velocity stability and smoothness you expect, then some of the poor performance seen with Almagard may need to be forgiven.  Or blamed on the pellets. 

Just because we drive variables and study the effects does not mean the deliberate variable is the primary one affecting results.  Hence my suggestion to generate more than one variable data set, to verify the observed response was due to the deliberate variable.

So, call the study triple greased, if not double blind . 

Anyway; it is your study and you are putting in the effort.  So; your call.

The Vortek guide arrangement requires the spring removed from the gun and guides to add more Almagard. Not something terribly time consuming but with the Almagard already widening the ES and creating hints of dieseling and temperature sensitivity I'm not sure the I want to go through the work to add more grease just to put the nail in its coffin.

[Bayman]

Update : clipped one coil and added a little more Almagard. After about 50 shots Avg 701, ES 9 SD 2. About 15 fpe.
Shot cycle is better, I'd actually say pretty darn good. Not sure if it was from clipping the coil or the little bit extra grease.
I'll shoot it this way a bit hoping to see a little more velocity. If I don't I may add more preload to the spring or switch back to Krytox.

[subscriber]

Jolly good, Ron

[Bayman]

Jolly good, Ron

After shooting it some more the velocity increased to Avg 717, ES 9, SD 2. I'll put a few more rounds through it I'd like to see mid 720s to make an even 16fpe. I decided my next move is to clean out everything and go back to Krytox without changing anything in the spring stack. Then I'll know what the Almagard was contributing.

What's interesting is the ES returned to single digits after the spring cut.

Ron, I vote to clip a coil and go back to Krytox, springs are cheap if it doesn't work out.  I personally think adding grease is a temporary solution that is not really addressing the root cause of the twang.  JMO

Wow look at this. Thanks Jeff, that's exactly where I'll probably wind up
Sometimes I gotta take the long way around to learn anything

[jccams]

Wow look at this. Thanks Jeff, that's exactly where I'll probably wind up
Sometimes I gotta take the long way around to learn anything

The long way is not a bad way as long as you learn from the journey.  May even learn some things you didn't plan to, again that's a good thing.  I'm glad you are figuring that gun out.

[Bayman]

Wow look at this. Thanks Jeff, that's exactly where I'll probably wind up
Sometimes I gotta take the long way around to learn anything

The long way is not a bad way as long as you learn from the journey.  May even learn some things you didn't plan to, again that's a good thing.  I'm glad you are figuring that gun out.

Thanks Jeff. Shot more 10 shot strings this morning. Listed in sequence
Avg 722, ES 14 & SD 4  15.91 fpe
Avg 725, ES 7 & SD 2   16.04 fpe
Avg 719, ES 5 & SD 1  15.78 fpe
Avg 719, ES 7 & SD 2        "

Not sure why the Avg dipped after reaching 725. I was hoping it'd stay there. Perhaps the heat of continuous shooting tightened up the seal fit.

Later...
Not being able to leave well enough alone I completely stripped the gun thinking the sticky red grease is slowing it down. I lightly relubed the parts with Krytox. The velocities initially tanked to the 690s and after a hundred shots it finally crept up to Avg 714, ES 5 & SD 1. Even with a slightly lower velocity the shot cycle feels quicker and cleaner than with the Almagard. I suppose some of the velocity with the Almagard could have been attributed to light dieseling. I typically lose about ten fps switching a gun from petroleum based greases to Krytox. I'm gonna take a break from this gun and check it later. As of now it shoots very nicely, just not quite the power levels I'd like.

Oh, I will tell you this, the gun cocked smoother with the Almagard. I also used the Almagard to grease the trigger contact points. It's nice because it seems to stay put and smooths the trigger's feel.

[subscriber]

More data is always useful.  As opposed to collecting data only until it will prove the point one wanted to make. 

It sounds like there is more to learn from this HW95 system, Ron.  Please keep the info coming.

[Bayman]

I switched the gun back to Almagard. The hint of twang came back with Krytox after a couple hundred shots. The Krytox and Almagard made basically the same power but the gun cocked much smoother and had no twang. I placed the spring on the higher power setting on the Vortek top hat to compensate for using a little more Almagard than before. The gun shoots very well with no twang and makes a hair over my 16 fpe goal. Plus it cocks smooth as butter. It does have hints of light dieseling but seems to not effect the extreme spread or POI. After a hundred shots it's Avg 725, ES 7 & SD 2 on a ten shot string.

[subscriber]

Thanks, Ron

Are you using a fitted guide?  Sorry, if that was covered.  I get confused reading too many threads...

[Bayman]

Thanks, Ron

Are you using a fitted guide?  Sorry, if that was covered.  I get confused reading too many threads...

Lol, I get it Yes the gun has a Vortek kit with very well fitting guides. I'm pretty impressed with the Almagard so far. Yes it does induce some minor dieseling but that makes up for the power lost by stiction. Overall the gun is smoother to cock and nicer to shoot. Time will tell if it stays that way. The Krytox started off well but the twang resurfaced after a few hundred shots. I've gone through two tins of JSBs conducting this experiment.  I will reiterate that the Almagard is some really sticky stuff. It gets on your hands and then all over the place. It doesn't wipe off without a rag dampened with mineral spirits. The fact that it's sticky is a good quality. I'm not sure how temperature sensitive this stuff is. I'll see what happens when winter comes. This R9 is not for hunting so I'm not terribly worried about it.

[SSG Grampo]

Red and Tacky was mentioned in a post a couple years ago here on the GTA or on Tom Gaylord's blog, can't remember which? The comment was that it's very, very similar (to Almagard). I have been using it ever since with great results. I just replaced the OEM spring (used a ARH spring) on my Diana 34 (.22) and it's smooth vibration free and very accurate. No dieseling, not even a wisp of smoke. And it's quiet, just a thump. Also same results on another Diana (ARH) spring) and BSA Polaris (Titan Mainspring). Almaguard probably is better but I'm happy with the results of Red and tacky. We need more tuning posts like this, Thank's Ron for this post.
Bill.

[Bayman]

Red and Tacky was mentioned in a post a couple years ago here on the GTA or on Tom Gaylord's blog, can't remember which? The comment was that it's very, very similar (to Almagard). I have been using it ever since with great results. I just replaced the OEM spring (used a ARH spring) on my Diana 34 (.22) and it's smooth vibration free and very accurate. No dieseling, not even a wisp of smoke. And it's quiet, just a thump. Also same results on another Diana (ARH) spring) and BSA Polaris (Titan Mainspring). Almaguard probably is better but I'm happy with the results of Red and tacky. We need more tuning posts like this, Thank's Ron for this post.
Bill.

Thanks Bill. I'm liking this stuff too. Fwiw the gun is loosening up and is now shooting nicely at 16.3 fpe. No twang yet. And when I say it is dieseling lightly, it's barely detectable. There's no real smoke or smell but there's occasionally a pale orange glow when the barrel is held to the light. Technically it's smoke but it's never enough to see or smell in normal use. I'm looking hard for it. The gun has single digit extreme spreads, so whatever dieseling is happening is slight and consistent. I'm gonna try the Almagard on a couple other rifles next time I need to service them.

[AKHI]

I thought I’d just post this here as I see comments about red n tacky.

I ordered some tune in a tube today to compare to Lucas red n tacky, consistency wise.  I used the red n tacky on my grinding and twangy Kral n11, applied through the cocking slot and on all metal to metal contact surfaces and hinges with a syringe.   The Lucas red n tacky absolutely muted the twang on this beast within 20 shots.  The only thing I hear when cocking is the plastic bearing on the cocking arm guide rubbing against the plastic stock, the spring no longer crunches and it feels like a low powered gas piston during the firing cycle, just a solid thump.  I will chrony and compare to results I posted here back in 2017 or so.  I’ll also update on a comparison between the red n tacky & tune in a tube once it arrives.

[Matchstickshooter]

 This had been posted on O.C.'s Junkyard Forum a long while back...
  This is Tune in a Tube.

    https://products.lelubricants.com/item/all-purpose-chassis-2/almagard-vari-purpose-lubricant-3750-3752/3751-tube

[AKHI]

This had been posted on O.C.'s Junkyard Forum a long while back...
  This is Tune in a Tube.

    https://products.lelubricants.com/item/all-purpose-chassis-2/almagard-vari-purpose-lubricant-3750-3752/3751-tube

Do you know what the difference is between that and the 3752 is?

Nvm the 51 is nlgi 1 the 52 is nlgi 2.

Rick eustler says there is a summer and winter version,  I bet the 51 and 52 correspond to winter and summer blends.

[Matchstickshooter]

 I'm not sure. I was telling O.C. about it on that forum and someone else posted that link.
 I had wonderful good luck with it on the Winnie 1100 I had, at the time.
 Still have the tube around here somewhere...

[rookrifle]

Very interesting, thank you!

[Bayman]

Thousands of shots later the R9 still shoots beautifully. The velocity with JSB 13.73 crept up to mid 730s with single digit extreme spreads. Still lightly dieseling but accurate as heck. I used the Almagard on a couple other guns since with good results.