Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING



Author Topic: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING  (Read 42808 times - 3 votes) 
)

Offline CharlieDaTuna

  • Media
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
    • CharlieDaTuna.com
  • Real Name: Bob
Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« on: September 19, 2011, 10:50:27 PM »
NOTE: This has been revised since the original post.

It was suggested that this be pinned temporarily and I think that’s a good idea, maybe for a couple of weeks so most of the members can read it because it is an important safety factor and then Dez and Rocker1 or Gene can edit this part out and place it somewhere else. Probably in the Library.

BALK FIRING

What I’m going to say here should apply to all springer’s and gas rams and would apply to all Co2 and pumper guns as well as PCP’s I should think. It also applies to both single stage as well as two stage triggers. Many of us are aware of the following but I also know that most of people out there that are not and should be. It is an important and critical safety factor.

First the question… “What is balk firing?”   ??? ???

Balk firing is when you start to pull the trigger, change your mind and release the trigger. We all do that on occasion (especially hunters) but there is something that should be realized. You might now unknowingly have created a dangerous condition. What happens is that although the trigger may return to battery, the sear itself does not reset.  :o  :o

There is no springer or gas ram gun that returns the sear to the position where it was prior to pulling of the trigger and the sear starts to move and you need to keep that in mind. If you balk fire and release that trigger, the sear cannot and will not return to its original set position. And you now do not have the slightest idea just how close it is to the edge of release. You might just touch the trigger or bump the gun and it will discharge.  And be aware of this.  The guns can accidently discharge at any time whether the safety is on or not:o

  ALWAYS RE-COCK YOUR GUN IF YOU BALK FIRE OR FIRE IT SAFELY INTO THE GROUND

Now then .... a little thought. Do you have any idea of how much pressure there is against surface of the sear that is holding that piston and spring pressure being applied to it?  ??? Depending on the gun, a couple of hundred pounds or more, much more with a magnum gun.   :o :o

And… all of this stored up energy is being held in check by a little metal platform (sear surface contact area) that is in the area of roughly about .060 of an inch high (the moving contact surface retaining or latching on to the piston) and maybe .090 inch thick. This will vary from gun to gun but regardless, the point here is that there is not very much surface area holding that piston and all of its stored energy back. The height factor (or piston release area) does not leave much room for error and it’s this area that is compromised or shortened by balk firing. It might be being held at this point by just a couple of thousandths…. or right on the edge... and it just might let go. :-[ :-[ :'(

 Now the question….. “But why does the sear not reset”?

Do you realize how much return spring pressure that would be required against the opposite side of the sear to "push" the sear back up into place or reset to its original set position when the trigger has been released if bulk fired? Maybe as much as 30-40- lbs. and possibly much more. or possibly more with perfect surfaces and depending on the trigger. And that spring pressure would have to be added to the overall trigger pull weight. Can you imagine the trigger pull weight needed to overcome that??? Maybe close to a 40 lbs. trigger pull.... and again, possibly much more.    :o :o 

Sooo…The pressure of the piston and spring must be relieved before the sear can reset itself and is why you must recock the gun to reset the sear. At that point, when the pressure of the spring is removed, it requires only an ounce or two of spring pressure to reset the sear. ;) ;)

    ALWAYS RE-COCK YOUR GUN  OR FIRE IT SAFELY INTO THE GROUND IF YOU BALK FIRE

Triggers can be very dangerous. For those of you that do not have a thorough understanding of triggers and how they function, you need to be very careful when you work on them.  Changing any angle or geometry of any trigger can lead you to have a dangerous and/or unsafe trigger and can make balk firing even far more dangerous. The trigger release state may be even far more critical and you really need to keep the safety factor in mind and do a lot of testing to be sure that it is safe after working on your trigger. :D

Have fun and safe shooting.  ;)

Thanks all

CDT         

 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:12:12 PM by CharlieDaTuna »
  • Simpsonville,  SC
-----
I DO NOT ANSWER GENERAL AIRGUN QUESTIONS IN PM'S SO DO NOT PM ME WITH AG QUESTIONS.

Bob aka: CharlieDaTuna
Co-founder of the GTA


HOME OF THE GRT-III --- GRT-4G TRIGGER --- CBR TRIGGER
http://charliedatuna.com/GRT-III%20Trigger%20New.htm
http://www.charliedatuna.com/GRT-4G.htm

Home of the NPSS-NP (CBR) Triggers:
http://www.charliedatuna.com/NPSS%20non%20PP.htm

Website: http://charliedatuna.com/

E-Mail: CDT22@Frontier.com

Offline robert w

  • when guns are outlawed , only out laws will have guns
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 4338
  • Real Name: robert
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 04:58:25 PM »
great point charlie we all make booboos but you cant call a shot bullet back from any gun of any type even a cheep red ryder
in 1939 hitler said give up your guns and germany will be a safer place... then a short time after all guns were taken ,he told the jews "board the train" a word in histroy

Offline supertech77

  • supertech77
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2291
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 08:13:46 PM »
great post;i never thought of that.and your absolutely right,
  • Virginia
umarex e.b.o.s full auto bb hpa adapted]
[break barrels}
wfh, 22 NP [tune
22 cal [tuned] ruger air magnum
25 cal [tuned] ruger air magnum
np trail 22,[tuned]
 
(pcp's}               
B-50 177  [tuned]
B50 22 [tuned]
850 22 [tuned]  hpa mod done regulated]
mrod 22 [tuned] custom stock
mrod 25  [tuned] bullpup custom vip stock]walther barrel
Sumatra .25 cal 500[stock]
condor .25 [tuned]
condor .257 hot rod [D.N custom valve system] 90ci tank doug noble custom adapter,r&l custom barrel,with spare r&l custom barrel,
bulldog,357  power tuned,max shroud custom extension installed.
rainstorm 2 357.[stock]
shin-sung Fire 201 / 357 [tuned] 9mm
Sam-yang 909 twin tube [aaf tune kit] 45 cal
Sam yang 909s , 45 [tuned]
 TEXAN  457 . [stock ] with r&l shroud
eqip, 5x20x sight,paladin mk390

Offline ranedouglas

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 209
  • pray for rane
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2011, 08:02:48 PM »
that's good info, charlie.   i have a cometa that the 1st stage is so light that i do this "balk" thing.  it's one of those 'gently squeeze and ease into the shot' triggers.   for the most-part, most springer triggers aren't good enough for me to do that.   i just more-or-less "gun" them lightly.  
main squeezes: .22 custom disco (845fps w/ 13.5gr jsb)  .. .22 rws (older cometa) model 94 tuned (780fps w/ 15.5gr napier)..   .. .177 rws (older cometa) model 93 tuned for 12ftlbs (800fps w/ rws points)..  .. .20 cal/5mm fully tuned webley valuemax (780fps w/ 11.4gr ftt)..   .. custom crosman 2400pcpx w/ .25 (24ftlbs), .22 (20ftlbs) and .177 barrels (my daughter's when i can coax her into it)..  .. my only pistol - crosman ssp250 w/ everything

Offline Supaflee

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 09:09:13 PM »
Ahhhh, There have been a few times when with my Gamo-CFX, after aiming at a target for about a minute, my non sighting eye starts to weep like *(&^ . Occasionally it`s done this just a nano second before letting the shot go, and part way through the let-off.I generally look away at something dark and close to where I am, and then line up to take the shot again. I`ve noticed that on these occasions the next time I touch the trigger , whammo, she`s gone, just the way it should be , no creep, no delay, no fatigue. . Now I know why. Maybe the GRT 111  from Bob , which I`ve already ordered , is going to fix the hold,hold,hold,hold, creep ,creep, creep, problem I have with the existing trigger eh . Yesssiree , there`s another problem gonna be gone when it arrives . Cant wait . Supaflee
There's no argument between right and right,right?
 Shanghai Model 62 , .177cal. Gamo 4X32
Diana 460 Magnum .177 cal with Hawke 3 - 12 X 44 SF scope 
Crossman 2250,14.5" barrel .22 cal
Gamo CFX Silver .177 Gamo 4X32 Scope
Webley & Scott Domin8tor .177 .Hawke Sport 3-9 X 40 HD Scope.
BSA AIRSPORTER .22 GL. BSA 4X20 Scope
Gamo CFX .22 CDT GRT111, Outdoor Optics 3-9 X 40
 Gamo CFX .177 cal Hawke 3-9 X 40 AO.
 Weihrauch HW 97 K .22 cal  3-9X40 AO Hawke Sport.
 Gamo CFX .177 cal , Gamo 4X32 Scope

Offline aack73

  • Nitrogen is the way to go :)
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Real Name: Chad
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 09:21:29 PM »
good post Bob. ;D
"come over to the darkside you knob"

MT

  • Guest
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 12:34:53 PM »
Thanks Bob. I had felt the advanced position of the sear under those circumstances. Am I to understand that I can re-cock the gun while still loaded to reset sear? I have a new Nitro Venom .177.

Offline CharlieDaTuna

  • Media
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
    • CharlieDaTuna.com
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 12:40:59 PM »
Yes, you can recock the gun with or without i tbeing loaded.

CDT
  • Simpsonville,  SC
-----
I DO NOT ANSWER GENERAL AIRGUN QUESTIONS IN PM'S SO DO NOT PM ME WITH AG QUESTIONS.

Bob aka: CharlieDaTuna
Co-founder of the GTA


HOME OF THE GRT-III --- GRT-4G TRIGGER --- CBR TRIGGER
http://charliedatuna.com/GRT-III%20Trigger%20New.htm
http://www.charliedatuna.com/GRT-4G.htm

Home of the NPSS-NP (CBR) Triggers:
http://www.charliedatuna.com/NPSS%20non%20PP.htm

Website: http://charliedatuna.com/

E-Mail: CDT22@Frontier.com

MT

  • Guest
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 01:23:45 PM »
Thank you for the quick reply. Just now warm enough outside to try out my new chrony!

Offline adel152

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 09:21:25 PM »
Very useful safety information.
Thank you,

Offline Korak-again

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 594
  • Real Name: Tom
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2011, 10:43:47 AM »
When a trigger is in the balk fire mode, isn't the very act of slapping the barrel to open it enough to fire the spring?
Bert Gummer for President.
For good health, give up smoking, drinking and sex.  You may not live to be one hundred but it sure will seem like it.

Offline CharlieDaTuna

  • Media
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
    • CharlieDaTuna.com
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2011, 11:30:06 AM »
I don't know of that ever happening but that is possible but normally it would not be open far enough if it did let go that it's not going to damage the gun and you should have a grip on the barrel. It would go off the instant the barrel were slapped and before the barrel was hardly moved. It's better to have control if it does let go than to have it go off unexpectedly because it wasn't recocked and reset.

CDT
  • Simpsonville,  SC
-----
I DO NOT ANSWER GENERAL AIRGUN QUESTIONS IN PM'S SO DO NOT PM ME WITH AG QUESTIONS.

Bob aka: CharlieDaTuna
Co-founder of the GTA


HOME OF THE GRT-III --- GRT-4G TRIGGER --- CBR TRIGGER
http://charliedatuna.com/GRT-III%20Trigger%20New.htm
http://www.charliedatuna.com/GRT-4G.htm

Home of the NPSS-NP (CBR) Triggers:
http://www.charliedatuna.com/NPSS%20non%20PP.htm

Website: http://charliedatuna.com/

E-Mail: CDT22@Frontier.com

Offline Finchlake

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • accurate, powerful, silent, and beautiful
  • Real Name: Scott
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2011, 11:46:52 AM »
Thanks for posting this, it could save someone an injury in the future. Also just installed the GRT-III trigger in my Benjamin Titan  yesterday, installation went well, Love the new trigger.
  • Haile, Louisiana
Gamo Rocket .177
Benjamin Titan GP .22
Benjamin XL 1100 .22
Benjamin Discovery .22
Benjamin Marauder .25
Benjamin Marauder .22
Beeman Falcon .17
Evanix Rainstorm II .357
Working on .25 MROD MDRL BullPup kit

Offline Mike 4888blues

  • Iam addicted to air rifles lol
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1007
  • I Love Air rifles & Vintage Straocaster guitars
  • Real Name: Mike
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 03:46:47 PM »
 :) :)
 I always replace my triggers if need to with a trigger from charlie da tuna,
 always great to learn something new and this makes sense.

 I thought the sear stayed still while the trigger just finally tightened up on its linkage before finally firing, never thought the sear was actually changing positions.   
 great to know, thanks for the info, love this  site!
 thanks charlie
  • Montana
Mike  4888blues
Keepers
RWS 350.22/ WFH.22 Camo ((Hatsan 125 sniper.22 and .25   Beeman ram.22

Non keepers..
 We wont bother to list them!

Offline WHITEFANG

  • JUNKYARD AIRGUN'S
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2673
  • FANG JUNKYARD AIRGUN'S
    • JUNKYARD AIRGUNS
  • Real Name: OC
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 10:21:05 PM »
In this position of balk, even attempting to apply the safety on the guns that have the safety in the trigger guard could result in the gun discharging. My point is on the REM / CROSMAN guns I would not apply the safety till after the re-cock the gun. Correct me if I am wrong. I had a gun that was in the balk position and due to the setting of the trigger, the gun did discharge. I corrected the problem by adjusting the trigger. Very good thread for all of us.
  • Judsonia ARKANSAS (WHITE COUNTY)
GUNS: TOO MANY💀

FANG
JUNKYARD AIRGUN's
GHOST WOLF AIRGUN WORKS

Offline ranedouglas

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 209
  • pray for rane
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 01:13:43 AM »
some of the others (cometas, for instance) will not cock if you don't pull the trigger all the way through the 2nd stage.   i have experienced this "balking" before.   the gun went off while the barrel was open, bent the barrel, broke the stock...... i know more about the tf 89 now, but it is a terrible way to learn that and i am thankful i didn't get hurt.   i watched a high performance WTM come uncocked on my good buddy, jarred (jed, the guy that makes those ultra-duty spring compressors).   he was holding the barrel, but the but end of the magnum was slightly resting on the seat where he was sitting - about 4-5" away from his crotch.    the butt-end of the stock slammed him in the back of the nuts.   i wished i had THAT on film.    it's probably the worst springer to have that happen w/.   he was unable to talk for about 3 minutes - face turning blood red and i'm trying to ask him what happened.   i though he shot himself.    then he puked.   then tried to walk.    it was about 30 minutes later when i went into the house to check on him and only then could he talk and explain everything.   he still doesn't shoot since then.   he had been drinking beer, got carried away and was cocking and shooting the WTM too fast, and cocking it WAY too hard, slamming the piston into the trigger mechanism.   - Paul D Self.
main squeezes: .22 custom disco (845fps w/ 13.5gr jsb)  .. .22 rws (older cometa) model 94 tuned (780fps w/ 15.5gr napier)..   .. .177 rws (older cometa) model 93 tuned for 12ftlbs (800fps w/ rws points)..  .. .20 cal/5mm fully tuned webley valuemax (780fps w/ 11.4gr ftt)..   .. custom crosman 2400pcpx w/ .25 (24ftlbs), .22 (20ftlbs) and .177 barrels (my daughter's when i can coax her into it)..  .. my only pistol - crosman ssp250 w/ everything

Offline border

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 55
  • yes
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 09:17:16 PM »
When a trigger is in the balk fire mode, isn't the very act of slapping the barrel to open it enough to fire the spring?
This would be my first concern:  Just how close to sear disengagement is this trigger now?...And would the mere act of slapping the end of the barrel to recock it move the sear enough to disengage?  If so, I don't think just holding on to the barrel would suffice.  Something would get damaged.  Hopefully not me. I don't see any good coming from that.  I think if this happened to me I'd rather just finish the trigger pull while aiming into the dirt or just walking up to the target to finish the trigger movement...pull it through. And if it happens in competition I guess you'd have to try re-cocking the gun...But this just gives me the shivers...In HG shooting this might be almost a "hang-fire" situation where the gun just didn't fire...Always scary and worthy of waiting...waiting...then clearing the line until it goes off!...Smoothed sears don't need a lot of push to let them slide over the edge...I could be wrong but I think I've read where Hatsan Quatro triggers fully re-set if a trigger pull is incomplete but haven't seen it elsewhere. I'd prefer just pulling it through safely and getting it over with. 
  • Michigan....Laingsburg

tracka

  • Guest
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 03:09:34 PM »
Well, I'm new at the air gun thing, but if I have a balk situation, I'll never re-cock it, just fire it off.  Why not?  seems like the easiest and safest thing to do all around.  Tracka

Offline Powder burner

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 853
  • yes
  • Real Name: I'm Rick James!
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2012, 12:22:41 AM »
  thanks, Bob.  i can't believe i didn't know this.  it seems so obvious now that I've read it.  i guess it's one of those things that ya just never think about.
  • batesville, ms.
benjamin 397
crosman 2400 .22
crosman pc77b .22
Crosman 760

Offline pappa

  • Claud
  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 964
Re: Everone should read this… Revised..UNDERSTANDING BALK FIRING
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 07:20:57 PM »
Thanks for this, Bob. You have made, me aware of something that I had never even considered and you also have probably saved a lot of us a LOT of trouble and misery with this awareness. In the future, if I don't complete a firing sequence, I'll just fire off into the dirt as someone here suggested.

God bless you for so many great insights!
Crosman 2100 .177
Crosman 2200 .22
Benjamin Regal w/Nitro Venom .22 barrel
Ruger Air Hawk Elite .177 - Self tuned
Ruger Air Hawk .177 & .22 - Self Tuned
Ruger Blackhawk .177 & .22 - Self tuned
Xisico B25 .177 - MM tuned
Remington Summit .177 & .22 - Self tuned
Crosman Nitro Venom .177 & .22 - Self tuned
RWS34 T06 Classic .177 & .22 - Self tuned
Ruger Air Magnum .177 - Self tuned
RWS350 T06 Magnum .22 - Self tuned
RWS460 T06 Magnum .22 - Self tuned
Mendoza RM577 .177 - Retired

GTA - The best place for discussion about Air Guns.